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Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

MoeJack said:
That's ok :D. So Michael mentioned it himself before..interesting. Guess I've never seen it. What was really getting to me initially though was that Michael had all of these medical problems to deal with, from vitiligo and lupus to back problems and lung problems to scalp burns..all of which gave him searing pain all the time. And on top of that he had all of the legal issues and allegations thrown against him year after year as well as people doubting him and calling him names and such. Also on top of that add all of the career pressures from recording his albums to making his short films and performing concerts. He went through all of that, and yet for 50 years he never gave up his passion to heal the world and donate millions to the sick and poor around the world and give more and more joy and music to his fans all while keeping a smile on whenever he was in public. I don't know if it's just me..but I feel that this guy was under so much pressure and stress that it was truly more than one man can bear...
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spot on!
 
Soundmind said:
the 22 and 23 do matter , if he gave im lorazepam on these dates it would have been in his urine .
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Agreed. I am reading the search warrants now as we speak looking for what Murray stated he gave. I can not remember off the top of my head.

OK but the urine production works the same for all of these medicines, some of which show quite high concentration (if I understood you correctly)

So low concentration of propofol is still indicator of its little or NO PRIOR use.

We are looking for concentrations, not urine production, just to be clear. The concentration of each drug is different depending on what it is. Some drugs will still be there after 24 hours or 48, etc. Some drugs are gone quickly (Propofol is one of them) Some drugs are excreted differently and some drugs have a half life, etc. This all means that you have to know the specific drug and how it works in the body...in other words, how we metabolize it. Propofol can also come out in the lungs during breathing.
 
I am not gonna read this, don't need to have this graphic info in my head about my beloved MJ.

You all are probably stronger than I am.
 
Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

Nothing really suprizing in the report to me. Maybe the thing with the lungs-not sure what that means?? I am kind of glad in a way that it discredits all the people that act like he took massive amounts of drugs. The only thing massive to me was the propofol.
 
Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

MySerenity5 said:
I am scared to read it...

I just read what the other fans have summarized because I feel physically ill just thinking about it.

From what I have read from other users, Michael was healthy despite his other illnesses such as vitiligo and lupus! His death was so avoidable... :cry:

I feel numb....
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Im the same as you, i will never read it :( Not a chance in hell, i can not even begin to imagine reading it! But thankfully from fans on hear brave enough to read it i know that Michael was healthy and thats all i need to know!! I dont wanna know anything else :(
 
Beachlover said:
Ok. Lets back up to explain urine production first. Urine can be more or less. If you are severely dehydrated it can be less per hour. If you drink a 3L bottle of water and you only put out 550 you are going to blow up. In other words, the 550 was just the reserve in his bladder. We don't know how long it was there. Normal bladder capacity is somewhere between 400 to 600cc. The urinary bladder can normally hold 250 to 350cc of urine before the urge to void becomes conscious (there are other urine tests they can do to check the urine concentration, etc) I believe MJ had a problem with urinary retention due to enlarged prostate.

I thought he was using Midazolam/Versed to wean MJ off the Propofol. Lorazepam is Ativan. Midazolam WAS found in the urine. At least I know the concentration for that was pretty high (6.8) and I believe it would show up for 48-72 hours after.

By the way, you seem a little annoyed at Murray.
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MJ's problem was not how much urine his body was producing but the rate it was getting rid of it .

so that was an appropriate estimation , during the last 11-12 hours of his life he received an amount of propofol that is not consistent with an hours of use , it was less than an hour infact . can't say how long but it was for a short time , depending on the amount .

by the way the midazolam concentration was not 6.8 , it was 0.0068
 
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Beachlover said:
Agreed. I am reading the search warrants now as we speak looking for what Murray stated he gave. I can not remember off the top of my head.

OK but the urine production works the same for all of these medicines, some of which show quite high concentration (if I understood you correctly)

So low concentration of propofol is still indicator of its little or NO PRIOR use.

We are looking for concentrations, not urine production, just to be clear. The concentration of each drug is different depending on what it is. Some drugs will still be there after 24 hours or 48, etc. Some drugs are gone quickly (Propofol is one of them) Some drugs are excreted differently and some drugs have a half life, etc. This all means that you have to know the specific drug and how it works in the body...in other words, how we metabolize it. Propofol can also come out in the lungs during breathing.
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I thoughut you said urine production influences concentration.

Seems like there are many variables, then. Though the previous text about the propofol metabolism showed higher concentration after 24 h in test results (0.6 this I think I understood) So independently of this big number of variables, we could compare this to this kind of independent tests.

Basing on this, there is no evidence that Michael used propofol before.
 
Soundmind said:
MJ's problem was not how much urine his body was producing but the rate it was getting rid of it .

so that was an appropriate estimation , during the last 11-12 hours of his life he received an amount of propofol that is not consistent with an hours of use , it was less than an hour infact . can't say how long but it was for a short time , depending on the amount .
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Not sure what you are trying to say here. You confused me with the Ativan comment. I thought he was using Versed to wean MJ off the Propofol.

It is already known it was acute intoxication so I don't think we would see a lot in his urine of the Propofol. It is a drug that does not last long in the body either way. I think he didn't last an hour before it became toxic. I think only minutes. I can't find the search warrant with the complete drug listing. Its on my hard drive 'somewhere'...
 
Soundmind said:
MJ's problem was not how much urine his body was producing but the rate it was getting rid of it .

so that was an appropriate estimation , during the last 11-12 hours of his life he received an amount of propofol that is not consistent with an hours of use , it was less than an hour infact . can't say how long but it was for a short time , depending on the amount .
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OK thanks for the info.
 
daisy said:
I thoughut you said urine production influences concentration.

Seems like there are many variables, then. Though the previous text about the propofol metabolism showed higher concentration after 24 h (this I think I understood) So independently of this big number of variables, we could compare this to this kind of independent tests.

Basing on this, there is no evidence that Michael used propofol before.

ok, good night.
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Its kind of complicated but they have ways to test the amount vs. the concentration of urine. Hope that explains it. Yes, there are variables.

Propofol is a drug that does not last long and sort of 'goes away'. Some drugs last a long time in your body and you can still detect them days and even some weeks later because they 'stick' to your body more and come out more slowly. Propofol is harder to detect even hours later.
 
Beachlover said:
Its kind of complicated but they have ways to test the amount vs. the concentration of urine. Hope that explains it. Yes, there are variables.

Propofol is a drug that does not last long and sort of 'goes away'. Some drugs last a long time in your body and you can still detect them days and even some weeks later because they 'stick' to your body more and come out more slowly. Propofol is harder to detect even hours later.
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But you could compare this to some average results reached in independent tests and I thought the article you posted was showing the results of such independent tests.
And they showed much much higher results than Michael's.
 
Guys let me just say it I really do enjoy an actual discussion re facts and everything, and please lets just ignore drama...? I mean, emotions run high but 2 attempts at drama for 10 pages of reasoning - what this thread IS about - is a success given how heartbroken people are now.
Please continue, I'm catching up... I want to understand as much as possible.
I guess... it's a part of a healing process for me .......... if there is one.
 
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daisy said:
But you could compare this to some average results reached in independent tests and I thought the article you posted was showing the results of such independent tests.
And they showed much much higher results than Michael's.
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Yes, but it is hard to read and then compare and translate to what was found in Michaels urine because I don't know how to score that.

I believe there was a low concentration because it didn't get a chance to metabolize before his body shut down. It is my thinking that he was injected with the propofol and within minutes he was gone.
 
Why was there Ephedrine in the urine in that closed bottle? What would he have taken/been given that for?
 
Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

MoeJack said:
That's ok :D. So Michael mentioned it himself before..interesting. Guess I've never seen it. What was really getting to me initially though was that Michael had all of these medical problems to deal with, from vitiligo and lupus to back problems and lung problems to scalp burns..all of which gave him searing pain all the time. And on top of that he had all of the legal issues and allegations thrown against him year after year as well as people doubting him and calling him names and such. Also on top of that add all of the career pressures from recording his albums to making his short films and performing concerts. He went through all of that, and yet for 50 years he never gave up his passion to heal the world and donate millions to the sick and poor around the world and give more and more joy and music to his fans all while keeping a smile on whenever he was in public. I don't know if it's just me..but I feel that this guy was under so much pressure and stress that it was truly more than one man can bear...
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yes..Michael was a very strong man.....he endured alot in 50 short years...He was very brave...:cry:
 
Beachlover said:
Yes, but it is hard to read and then compare and translate to what was found in Michaels urine because I don't know how to score that.

I believe there was a low concentration because it didn't get a chance to metabolize before his body shut down. It is my thinking that he was injected with the propofol and within minutes he was gone.
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I agree about Michael's almost immediate death after being overdosed with Propofol.
And that it didn't make it to urine because of this sudden death

I was just trying to figure out about the prior use of propofol, which I do not believe in, and Soundmind's posts made me believe that can be in some way reflected by the results.

god, all if this is simply terrible
got enough for today
:(
 
StaceyMJ said:
Why was there Ephedrine in the urine in that closed bottle? What would he have taken/been given that for?
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This is a very key question.

It probably came from a combi pill of aspirin, caffeine and ephidrine according to the report. No instructions or prescriber detail could be found on the container.

Ephedrine causes insomnia and weight loss and is a stimulant.
 
Beachlover said:
Yes, but it is hard to read and then compare and translate to what was found in Michaels urine because I don't know how to score that.

I believe there was a low concentration because it didn't get a chance to metabolize before his body shut down. It is my thinking that he was injected with the propofol and within minutes he was gone.
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how much urine was found in that bottle ? because even in that there was no lorazepam detected . Midazolam concentration was 0.0068 not 6.8 as you said beachlover .

even diazepam was not detected in his urine .

as for using Midazolam to wean mj off propofol . he claimed he used both lorazepam and midazolam

midazolam was bought along with propofol on the first week he started working officially for MJ 12 may . so it was not bought to be used instead of propfol , it was bought to be used WITH ( MINUTES BEFORE) propofol .

Lorazepam has a much longer half life and its influence would have been much longer and it was much more appropriate to be used as a sedation UNLIKE MIDAZOLAM . Midazolam also a very short acting drug . and midazolam like propofol is not used to treat insomnia .
 
RedMaryFlint said:
Murray told police he gave Michael propofol, lorazepam, and midazolam on the 22nd, and lorazepam and midazolam on the 23rd.
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Blood concentrations of unconjugated lorazepam peak at 1–4 h, significant concentrations persisting for 24 h and decreasing slowly over the next 24 h. About 95% of a dose of lorazepam was accounted for in urine and faeces over a period of 5 days; 74.5% was excreted in the urine as lorazepam glucuronide and 13.5% as minor metabolites.

Ok. If he said that he definitely lied but I can't find the stupid search warrant with the information. I was looking for the part where it says about weaning him off. I thought he was using midazolam.
 
daisydaisy said:
This is a very key question.

It probably came from a combi pill of aspirin, caffeine and ephidrine according to the report. No instructions or prescriber detail could be found on the container.

Ephedrine causes insomnia and weight loss and is a stimulant.
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Exactly...to know the answer to that could clear up a lot of unanswered questions.
 
daisy said:
I agree about Michael's almost immediate death after being overdosed with Propofol.
And that it didn't make it to urine because of this sudden death

I was just trying to figure out about the prior use of propofol, which I do not believe in, and Soundmind's posts made me believe that can be in some way reflected by the results.

god, all if this is simply terrible
got enough for today
:(
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yes , if he used it that night and that morning it would have been much higher in his urine . But we need hair sample to determine whether he was using it the prior days , weeks . From urine you could only determine the last hours , last night , that's it .
 
Re: Regarding the Coroner's Report...

i have a question about the anti- depression and anti-anxity....did MJ used them? and why a person used these medicine is called an addict , because they are not to make anyone high , but to help to stop the pain ?
 
daisydaisy said:
This is a very key question.

It probably came from a combi pill of aspirin, caffeine and ephidrine according to the report. No instructions or prescriber detail could be found on the container.

Ephedrine causes insomnia and weight loss and is a stimulant.
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This is on Wikipedia:

"The ECA stack is a drug combination used in weight loss and as a stimulant. ECA is an acronym for ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin. Dietary supplements based on or including elements of ECA were popular through the 1990s but the marketing of ephedra- or ephedrine-containing stimulant combinations for weight loss and bodybuilding is now restricted or illegal in the United States and Canada due to reports of heart attack, stroke, and death associated with these supplements.[1][2]"

FDA information on ephedrine supplements:

ephehttp://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHumanMedicalProducts/ucm152388.htm

A quote from the FDA site:

"FDA informed consumers and healthcare professionals that all dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids are illegal to market in the United States. Dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids, regardless of the dosage, are considered adulterated and pose an unreasonable risk of illness or injury to users, especially those suffering from heart disease and high blood pressure. FDA conducted an exhaustive evaluation of relevant scientific data evidence on ephedrine alkaloids before issuing this decision in a final rule in 2004. On August 17, 2006, a Court of Appeals ruling upheld this final rule, reversing an earlier decision by the District Court of Utah."

This may explain why there was no label.

The complete paper goes on to say the only thing these supplements do is cause people to lose weight. Who in the world would have given these to Michael? What if he wasn't aware that he was losing weight because of these pills? Did he know what they were? Lots of questions.
 
Soundmind said:
how much urine was found in that bottle ? because even in that there was no lorazepam detected . Midazolam concentration was 0.0068 not 6.8 as you said beachlover .

even diazepam was not detected in his urine .

as for using Midazolam to wean mj off propofol . he claimed he used both lorazepam and midazolam

midazolam was bought along with propofol on the first week he started working officially for MJ 12 may . so it was not bought to be used instead of propfol , it was bought to be used WITH ( MINUTES BEFORE) propofol .

Lorazepam has a much longer half life and its influence would have been much longer and it was much more appropriate to be used as a sedation UNLIKE MIDAZOLAM . Midazolam also a very short acting drug . and midazolam like propofol is not used to treat insomnia .
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450 ml of urine collected at scene.

Ok. You were getting the numbers from the 'cheat sheet'. I was reading the longer pages above and thats why our numbers are different. It reads as 6.8 on page 46 of 51 (jeez....are they trying to confuse us on purpose)

The Diazepam in the urine I would not question b/c it was in the blood. So we know it was given.

No, none of these are to treat insomnia. (or should not be anyway)
Correct. Midazolam (versed) can knock you out pretty much the same and often used in combination.
 
Well since we're trying to read the urine numbers how exactly are we supposed to read the propofol numbers, does anyone know. I mean what's a normal number and what's a lethal number.
 
Beachlover said:
450 ml of urine collected at scene.

Ok. You were getting the numbers from the 'cheat sheet'. I was reading the longer pages above and thats why our numbers are different. It reads as 6.8 on page 46 of 51 (jeez....are they trying to confuse us on purpose)

The Diazepam in the urine I would not question b/c it was in the blood. So we know it was given.

No, none of these are to treat insomnia. (or should not be anyway)
Correct. Midazolam (versed) can knock you out pretty much the same and often used in combination.
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I'm sure my numbers are correct . yeah diazepam is given but also it was started on that day . Murray's method of weaning MJ off propofol was injecting him with every drug available PLUS propofol . :smilerolleyes: Am I obligated to believe he was that much stupid ? well, let's wait for the amount purchased and the hair samples
 
Soundmind said:
I'm sure my numbers are correct . yeah diazepam is given but also it was started on that day . Murray's method of weaning MJ off propofol was injecting him with every drug available PLUS propofol . :smilerolleyes: Am I obligated to believe he was that much stupid ? well, let's wait for the amount purchased and the hair samples
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Are you jumping on me for some reason?
 
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