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Defense Tactics: Look what TMZ is saying..is this going to be the defense in the trial?

ivy said:
We have seen Karen Faye saying that she wouldn't discuss the case online as she can be a witness but then saying that no one even talked with her.
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The LAPD did back in the day, she said. It is the lawyers who haven't.
 
cinzia said:
A little less drama would be appreciated and a little less denigration of another's point of view.

I am not comparing this to rape.
I am looking at the victimisation of the victim, if you will. Michael is the victim or so I have thought, correct me if I am wrong here, please. What ever Michael did in the months or days preceding 25 June does not change the fact that murray was the doctor delivering the medication, was on the phone when he should have been watching his patient, was negligent at so many levels. Whatever Michael's previous history might have been changes none of this. Even if Michael had had countless years of addiction, murray still would be negligent for his actions and his inactions. So to say perhaps that well, none of this would have happened if Michael hadn't wanted the propofol so he has some responsibility here, seems to be starting to blame the victim.
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I think the drama stems from the fact that a certain member keeps making me look like a monster who believes it's all Michael's fault that he died. That is when I got passionate... and I am truly sorry for replying to your point of view in that matter, Im asking for the same respect yet I didn't do it for you. I thought you were comparing it to rape. But yes, I see in what sense you are referring to it now.

xthunderx2 said:
see the problem is.. that you haven't shown any credible evidence. Just your OPINION..that Murray is not fully responsible for Michael's death.....and when I asked you to post proof to back up your opinion...you couldn't. Because there isn't any...HOW do you know what conversations took place before Michael's death??...You don't...so there for a statement like....Murray is NOT solely responsible...contradicts the autopsy. And I am not blind..I know Michael was human and made human mistakes....BUT....Murray still killed Michael. HE is the one on trial for IM.....not Michael.
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What are you talking about? Did you forget already, I did give you proof but you decided to disregard it for ridiculous reasons because it went against you point of view, Thats the message ive been trying to get across!!
 
Moon__Walk said:
I think the drama stems from the fact that a certain member keeps making me look like a monster who believes it's all Michael's fault that he died. That is when I got passionate... and I am truly sorry for replying to your point of view in that matter, Im asking for the same respect yet I didn't do it for you. I thought you were comparing it to rape. But yes, I see in what sense you are referring to it now.



What are you talking about? Did you forget already, I did give you proof but you decided to disregard it for ridiculous reasons because it went against you point of view, Thats the message ive been trying to get across!!
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This trial is NOT about anyone else other than Murray and his disregard for human life....Michael's life. Lee' interview is not evidence in anyway....she says that Michael asked her about propofol....then when asked if she went to the authorities with this information...she said NO. I really dont know how credible she is. So if that is the only proof that you are able to posts that states that Murray is not fully responsible for Michael's death....then I guess your point cannot be proven. And maybe it is time for you to move on. Anything facts that I post...already proven.
 
Moon__Walk said:
Not necessarily, It depends on the person, Some people are just too biased and one sided to take on any evidence that conflict's their view, and other's take all evidence into account.

I never said Michael wanted to die. He need's sleep, Go to a sleep clinic, exhaust all safer options before going for a dangerous anesthetic that should only be used in a Hospital. And the fact that Murray is a Cardiologist and not an Anesthesiologist doesn't make sense either...

Don't get me wrong, Murray needs to be punished, He in part caused the death of one of my idol's and inspiration, through gross negligence and greed. But Im not biased in the sense that I see that Michael in part caused his own death, as harsh as that is for me to say.
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How do you know he did not do that?
 
Petrarose said:
How do you know he did not do that?
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Usually in order to find the source of insomnia the patient stays in a sleep clinic usually for about a week, while going through a detailed observation including instruments that measure sleep patterns, REM Sleep, Non REM Sleep. Symptoms of Sleep deprivation. Its not a two hour appointment, its an extended stay. We would have knew, had he checked into a sleep clinic. It surely would have come up now...
 
Moon__Walk said:
..., Go to a sleep clinic, exhaust all safer options before going for a dangerous anesthetic that should only be used in a Hospital. And the fact that Murray is a Cardiologist and not an Anesthesiologist doesn't make sense either...

...
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Well yeah, the free will goes both ways. And the one that actually is accused of involuntary manslaughter is about to be tried. That's where the crime lies with the the suspected criminal, not with the dead guy.
And I think the whole blaming the victim deal has been explained already.

Secondly, I've seen a number of medical 'professionals' act in strange ways.
Do you know what is strange about Cherilyn Lee? If I am mistaken she may forgive me. The first call should have been to law enforcement about the Propofol, not in front of a camera.

The same goes for folks like Arnold Klein who sees no contradiction in patient-confidentiality and sitting in front of a TMZ camera.

The other day I saw excerpts from a German MJ documentary- and wouldn't you know- another Doc who supposedly treated MJ in London for his addiction. I have no clue if the Lady is for real, forgot her name. Sat in front of a camera and going on and on and on how he seemed 'gay' to her. Clear as daylight.

What seems like the most 'normal' thing to us is actually a real problem- 'just' going to the Hospital- what unites all these people?? Medical personnel that somehow runs their mouths in public. I can only venture a guess what it's like to wonder if your personal information will be divulged for all to know.
Down to the point that he probably even avoided trips to public facilities unless it was a HUGE emergency- like during the trial. And every single time, no fail- it was a huge mess for him.

Remember his NYC hospital stay in the 90ies? Not fun.

Insomnia is not a simple bacterial infection that requires a certain course.

I honestly feel for Michael, when a simple visit to the Hospital becomes a logistic nightmare. His bodyguards had to PLEAD with paparazzi to have a heart to get them away from the gurney being wheeled in. I think many don't understand the implications of his fame. Of course one might add that he found way for surgery, sure.

Severe insomnia does many things with people, it is considered torture to knowingly sleep deprive someone- for a reason. Ongoing insomnia also messes with the insomniac. You can barely remember your own birthday when you're that sleep deprived. It's already almost superhuman to remember your own lyrics if you haven't slept the night before, people forget what sort of willpower is behind that- to be that sleep deprived and remember how many bars have been taked out from the coda of "The Way You Make Me Feel"...

Was Murray a good choice? Apparently not. But MJ doesn't need fingers pointed and a 'I told you so'.
Living with that kind of torture for literally decades is beyond what most people would have survived.
 
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Pace said:
Well yeah, the free will goes both ways. And the one that actually is accused of involuntary manslaughter is about to be tried. That's where the crime lies with the the suspected criminal, not with the dead guy.
And I think the whole blaming the victim deal has been explained already.

Secondly, I've seen a number of medical 'professionals' act in strange ways.
Do you know what is strange about Cherilyn Lee? If I am mistaken she may forgive me. The first call should have been to law enforcement about the Propofol, not in front of a camera.

The same goes for folks like Arnold Klein who sees no contradiction in patient-confidentiality and sitting in front of a TMZ camera.

The other day I saw excerpts from a German MJ documentary- and wouldn't you know- another Doc who supposedly treated MJ in London for his addiction. I have no clue if the Lady is for real, forgot her name. Sat in front of a camera and going on and on and on how he seemed 'gay' to her. Clear as daylight.

What seems like the most 'normal' thing to us is actually a real problem- 'just' going to the Hospital- what unites all these people?? Medical personnel that somehow runs their mouths in public. I can only venture a guess what it's like to wonder if your personal information will be divulged for all to know.
Down to the point that he probably even avoided trips to public facilities unless it was a HUGE emergency- like during the trial. And every single time, no fail- it was a huge mess for him.

Remember his NYC hospital stay in the 90ies? Not fun.

Insomnia is not a simple bacterial infection that requires a certain course.

I honestly feel for Michael, when a simple visit to the Hospital becomes a logistic nightmare. His bodyguards had to PLEAD with paparazzi to have a heart to get them away from the gurney being wheeled in. I think many don't understand the implications of his fame.

Severe insomnia does many things with people, it is considered torture to knowingly sleep deprive someone- for a reason.

Was Murray a good choice? Apparently not. But MJ doesn't need fingers pointed and a 'I told you so'.
Living with that kind of torture for literally decades is beyond what most people would have survived.
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Im not pointing fingers saying "I Told You So", I have never posted anything disrespectful to Michael in this entire thread, Like Ive stated before Michael was an idol and inspiration to me, Im no less upset than any one here, Im just saying that IMO, Responsibility was in the doctor and the patient, But I get crucified for that...
 
Moon__Walk said:
Usually in order to find the source of insomnia the patient stays in a sleep clinic usually for about a week, while going through a detailed observation including instruments that measure sleep patterns, REM Sleep, Non REM Sleep. Symptoms of Sleep deprivation. Its not a two hour appointment, its an extended stay. We would have knew, had he checked into a sleep clinic. It surely would have come up now...
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You still have no proof about what steps Michael made to deal with his insomnia, so please be careful in your statements. He has had insomnia for years, and you do not have knowledge of all his treatments in this area.

If it is at all possible, kindly tone down the aggressiveness of your posts.
 
Moon__Walk said:
Im not pointing fingers saying "I Told You So", I have never posted anything disrespectful to Michael in this entire thread, Like Ive stated before Michael was an idol and inspiration to me, Im no less upset than any one here, Im just saying that IMO, Responsibility was in the doctor and the patient, But I get crucified for that...
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Listen, crucifixion is something different. People just disagree on this issue.

The responsibility will always be higher with the Doctor- for good reason. Because it's the studied medical professional who KNOWS better, or should have known better.

Any Doctor would know what severe sleep deprivation does to an insomniac.

And that is why Murray is about to be tried.

MJ's house stayed open to moving trucks (!!!!) because of lawn enforcement's bias- the 'oh, it's Michael Jackson? Oh, a drug was involved? Of course than it MUST be his own fault."

It's because of that bias that his house didn't become an immediate crime scene, that Murray could go and built himself a nice timeline for 2 days and so and so on- it took a while for the coroner to come to the conclusion "homicide" because the guy on the table actually WAS Michael Jackson. Anybody else, anybody BUT MJ- everybody would have immediately said that someone was killed, 'poisening' would have been the first thought if John Doe would have been found like with that medication. But since it's MJ, it took a lot longer.

People have watched on for more than a decade how MJ was being bullied and blamed for this public bullying- that is why fans understandably will jump up and down- since the actual victim is dead.
 
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Petrarose said:
You still have no proof about what steps Michael made to deal with his insomnia, so please be careful in your statements. He has had insomnia for years, and you do not have knowledge of all his treatments in this area.

If it is at all possible, kindly tone down the aggressiveness of your posts.
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Are You serious? That was aggressive?, I was responding to your question. It's my opinion...

Pace said:
Listen, crucifixion is something different. People just disagree on this issue.

The responsibility will always be higher with the Doctor- for good reason. Because it's the studied medical professional who KNOWS better, or should have known better.

Any Doctor would severe sleep deprivation does to an insomniac.

And that is why Murray is about to be tried.
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Obviously it was a figure of speech. And I have said from the beginning that Murray is also responsible, I dont know why were debating that fact...
 
IMO I agree with Mez, Murray has to take the stand he has to explain why he gave Propofol in the first place
 
ivy said:
Okay I'll be blunt and play the devil's advocate.

propofol history is probably the main reason we aren't seeing a murder charge here. A successful defense could argue that history of prior use and doctor shopping is demonstrating a willing participant that accepted the risks and Murray just happened to be the doctor in place when something went wrong.

IVM charge allows to overcome the above argument. In other words prosecution can argue "who cared whether Michael wanted it or not, the way Murray gave it to him was negligence".

Similarly any form of addiction history could be good enough to create reasonable doubt to believe that Michael could have self injected or drank propofol.

(remember reasonable doubt doesn't mean they have to prove it, or it doesn't have to be correct. with reasonable doubt all you need is one juror to think "it might have happened")
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Thank you. And that is EXACTLY my point.
 
Is that a safe route to go considering Murray was his doctor and gave him the most addictive pills in his room?
 
Justthefacts said:
Is that a safe route to go considering Murray was his doctor and gave him the most addictive pills in his room?
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IMHO, the defense has no strategy at all, and will go for Michael's character assassination, and try to confuse the jury as much as possible, for a HUNG JURY, and then the DA could decline to prosecute, again. And then Murray would walk.

They will try to paint Murray as a VICTIM of Michael's demands, and Cheryln Lee feeds right into that. Who she really IS, we don't know, and we have only her word for what Michael did or did not say.
 
That woman's story is strange. Who is she? a limelight loving person who when asked a couple of basic questions she can't answer them/ And why would Michael be begging her for Propofol when we know Murray was buying the stuff in March for him and he told the guy he bought it from the person was complaining of injection pain. So he had a doctor who would could give him Propofol why would he ask her?
 
Justthefacts said:
That woman's story is strange. Who is she? a limelight loving person who when asked a couple of basic questions she can't answer them/ And why would Michael be begging her for Propofol when we know Murray was buying the stuff in March for him and he told the guy he bought it from the person was complaining of injection pain. So he had a doctor who would could give him Propofol why would he ask her?
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Exactly, and there are far too many people throwing Michael under the bus, for US to do it too, here?
 
IMO what is going to get Murray in trouble is the lies he told. And even tho all he needs is reasonable doubt if he is going to say Michael was sick then he better come up with what was wrong with him> ESP since he told anyone who would ask and even if they did not ask that Michael was fine.
 
Autumn II said:
Exactly, and there are far too many people throwing Michael under the bus, for US to do it too, here?
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Thank you.

Justthefacts: That woman's story is strange. Who is she? a limelight loving person who when asked a couple of basic questions she can't answer them/ And why would Michael be begging her for Propofol when we know Murray was buying the stuff in March for him and he told the guy he bought it from the person was complaining of injection pain. So he had a doctor who would could give him Propofol why would he ask her
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Why indeed.

And I have a very hard time finding credible a medical professional who throws patient confidentiality out the window just because her patient died. Whether what she says is true or not, this is inexcusable unprofessional behavior.
 
Moon__Walk said:
I think the drama stems from the fact that a certain member keeps making me look like a monster who believes it's all Michael's fault that he died. That is when I got passionate... and I am truly sorry for replying to your point of view in that matter, Im asking for the same respect yet I didn't do it for you. I thought you were comparing it to rape. But yes, I see in what sense you are referring to it now.
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Thank you. I appreciate your response.
 
ivy said:
In short it's a safe drug if given properly. If he believed Murray was able to give it safely then you cannot argue a willingly taking risk.

thats not always true ivy. propofol for one time is safe given properly but multipalt times in short period of time has risks... i know that for a fact (told by anist. himself)

how high that risk is depends on how much is given and the reason *long surgery small surgery etc*

With that in mind, the fact murray gave it maybe for 6 weeks is also a point to look at. because of the risks involved *besiseds the russion roulette he played by having no safe equipment

If he used propofol in the past is also a question u have, a mean murray, and if michael has it before for insomnia is i think less importent because the trial focus on murray.. but i can see why people want to know that... also i can understand why you want to know why michael trusted murray and if this was really consantinal//
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Ingelief said:
ivy said:
In short it's a safe drug if given properly. If he believed Murray was able to give it safely then you cannot argue a willingly taking risk.

thats not always true ivy. propofol for one time is safe given properly but multipalt times in short period of time has risks... i know that for a fact (told by anist. himself)

And Thats what Im trying to say, Yes it can be safe, but not in the circumstances it was used...
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Moon__Walk said:
Usually in order to find the source of insomnia the patient stays in a sleep clinic usually for about a week, while going through a detailed observation including instruments that measure sleep patterns, REM Sleep, Non REM Sleep. Symptoms of Sleep deprivation. Its not a two hour appointment, its an extended stay. We would have knew, had he checked into a sleep clinic. It surely would have come up now...
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He did seek help actually, years ago. Just as usual when going to a clinic he used another name.
 
Conrad Murray is an assh*le who thinks he is so smart he can get
away with the murder of Michael Jackson. If Murray does get away with the murder of Michael Jackson, one day he may live to regret that he did.
Romans 12:19 (King James Version)

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
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Dr. Murray's Defense: MJ Was In Failing Health
2/8/2011 12:55 AM PST by TMZ Staff
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so once again they show they have no defence. itsl ike going round in cirlces with them. first it was the NOI,the b.guards. or just someone else. then it was mj who drank it or injected.

i guess the defence havnt read the autopsy and the cause of death. idiots. failing health whatever that is didnt kill mike. diprivan did with loraz

andcertain posters can blame mj all they want but ask me how mj was supposed to know what murray would do once he was asleep. was mj to know murrya wouldnt monitor him with the small amont of equipment he had. mj was to know he sat making phonecalls and/or left the room. considering diprivna is givin to millions its very safe when given correctly and u are monitored. that all comes down to murray not mj when hes already been put under
 
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