Defense Tactics: Look what TMZ is saying..is this going to be the defense in the trial?

This is a Michael Jackson board, and our posts should reflect that. I can't think of a single reason why they should not!

For neutral "law discussions," there are other boards for that.

Far too many people are throwing him under the bus these days. He deserves SO much better, and especially from his own fans. .
 
This is a Michael Jackson board, and our posts should reflect that. I can't think of a single reason why they should not!

For neutral "law discussions," there are other boards for that.

Far too many people are throwing him under the bus these days. He deserves SO much better, and especially from his own fans. .

I agree...this is a Michael Jackson board. And anything I post here will be related to that. You may disagree. Doesn't change MY intention.

btw...is there an echo in here?:doh:
 
And I'm going to reaffirm my pledge not to post anything on a public forum that could help Murray in any way.
well said this is a public board and as we saw in 03-05 ppl are watching.
 
here's an article quoting one of murray's patients that murray allegedly asked a colleague to join him in london:



i don't have another source for this. is there more info availabe about this other doctor? it could be just a rumor.


thanks. yeah that sounds like what i heard. think it was another article though as i dont remember the quote from the paitent.but thats prob the main source
 
I agree...this is a Michael Jackson board. And anything I post here will be related to that. You may disagree. Doesn't change MY intention.

btw...is there an echo in here?:doh:

I think you have missed the point. Of COURSE what you post is "related." Let me clarify. Those who post here should be in SUPPORT of Michael, not that the posts are "related." Even haters on other boards post statements "related" to Michael.

This really is a time to show the love, and support. And either you will or you won't. Your choice.
 
I think you have missed the point. Of COURSE what you post is "related." Let me clarify. Those who post here should be in SUPPORT of Michael, not that the posts are "related." Even haters on other boards post statements "related" to Michael.

This really is a time to show the love, and support. And either you will or you won't. Your choice.


Are you suggesting something I've posted on here has NOT been in SUPPORT of Michael? Again, that would be YOUR perception of my posts. Let me assure you, my INTENTION is ALWAYS about support and will ALWAYS be RELATED. You simply may disagree. That's fine with me.

As of right now MY opionion as Ive stated it, thus far, has been related to and in support of MJ. Nothing less, in my mind. :flowers:

Can we move on, now? sheesh
 
To refresh your memory, about what was posted and if it does or does not help the defense strategy:

Completely disagree with the bolded. Any history of propofol does not help the defense when put into proper context.

Of COURSE it does. That IS the defense. We already know what they will say, that Michael ALREADY had some sort of craving for propofol, and bullied Murray (which I do NOT believe). I've already explained this.

No one has said that Michael was asking for or requesting propofol willy nilly. For all the times any doctor or "source" or whoever has said Michael inquired about it (whether one believes them or not), he was"allegedly" ALWAYS insistent on the person knowing what they were doing.

We don't have proof that he "asked for it," at ALL, except as could normally happen during a dental procedure. Some here take Nurse Lee's statements at face-value. I don't. She helps the DEFENSE. I'd prefer to give Michael the benefit of the doubt, rather than whoever may crawl out of the woodwork.

He asked for anesthesiologist who would clearly be the person who knew what they were doing.
.

And you know this HOW? This doesn't seem to be getting through, that the defense strategy will be that "Michael was seeking propofol." So why ASSUME that, and help them? Something is very very wrong here.

There has been NO evidence that Michael has let just anyone give him propofol....again, that's whether one believes any of the doctors, nurses, etc.. who mentioned him inquiring about it.

At this point there has been NO testimony, under oath, from any medical professional, that Michael "let anyone" give him propofol outside of a normal procedure in a clinic or hospital. All there have been are tabloid references, perpetuated here, by various people.

And whatever Michael's participation in this was, again, this is not about him. It's about Murray taking responsibility for HIS part in this...whether Michael asked for it or not...whether he knew the risks or not. This is about MURRAY purchasing propofol, storing it in the house, and administering it even tho he he was not properly licensed to do so NOR having the proper equipment on hand for lifesaving purposes. I would go out on a limb and say whatever RISK Michael took, it was becuz he was given a false sense of security by Murray that the manner in which he was giving propofol was safe...even if it was different from however Michael MAY have received it in the past for dental work, etc.

This is ABSOLUTELY about Michael! Michael did not "participate" in his own death. (read your bolded statement, above)

This trial is about Murray and HIS WILLFUL negligence. I believe one of the ppl who testified at the preliminary hearing said it best that EVEN IF someone wants to say Michael was known to be addicted to propofol...it was MURRAY who supplied the drug and left it within Michael's reach when he exited the room to pee or make calls.

Propofol is not an addictive substance. Why even suggest it? "Left it in Michael's reach?" So you are believing that Michael injected it, or drank it? Really?

He does not, for one second, get a pass due to any percentage of responsibility that MAY be attributed to MJ. MJ's responsibility is moot, here...IMO. Whether it was 1% or 50%, Murray STILL has to pay for his own participation.

Michael was not responsible for his own death, 1%, or 50%. But, the defense will say that he WAS and THAT is what could get Murray community service instead of jail-time.

This is ALL ABOUT MURRAY. History of propofol has nothing to do with Murray's improper handling and rescuing in THIS particular incident.

This is "all about" Michael's murder. "History of propofol" is what the defense will try to prove. That IS the defense, as far as I can see, to try to paint Michael as complicit in his own death, as YOU said, 1% or 50%.

All the other times Michael "MAY" have received it, he came out of it ALIVE. The only difference here was CONRAD MURRAY.

It's really not as simplistic as you seem to think. Murray may be convicted, but if it's felt that a "superstar bullied him into giving propofol," he may get a very light sentence.
 
To refresh your memory, about what was posted and if it does or does not help the defense strategy:



Of COURSE it does. That IS the defense. We already know what they will say, that Michael ALREADY had some sort of craving for propofol, and bullied Murray (which I do NOT believe). I've already explained this.



We don't have proof that he "asked for it," at ALL, except as could normally happen during a dental procedure. Some here take Nurse Lee's statements at face-value. I don't. She helps the DEFENSE. I'd prefer to give Michael the benefit of the doubt, rather than whoever may crawl out of the woodwork.

.

And you know this HOW? This doesn't seem to be getting through, that the defense strategy will be that "Michael was seeking propofol." So why ASSUME that, and help them? Something is very very wrong here.



At this point there has been NO testimony, under oath, from any medical professional, that Michael "let anyone" give him propofol outside of a normal procedure in a clinic or hospital. All there have been are tabloid references, perpetuated here, by various people.



This is ABSOLUTELY about Michael! Michael did not "participate" in his own death. (read your bolded statement, above)



Propofol is not an addictive substance. Why even suggest it? "Left it in Michael's reach?" So you are believing that Michael injected it, or drank it? Really?



Michael was not responsible for his own death, 1%, or 50%. But, the defense will say that he WAS and THAT is what could get Murray community service instead of jail-time.



This is "all about" Michael's murder. "History of propofol" is what the defense will try to prove. That IS the defense, as far as I can see, to try to paint Michael as complicit in his own death, as YOU said, 1% or 50%.



It's really not as simplistic as you seem to think. Murray may be convicted, but if it's felt that a "superstar bullied him into giving propofol," he may get a very light sentence.

Did you not see all the MAY and MAYBE's in my post? Nowhere in my posts did I let on that I personally believed Michael drank propofol. Did you read that entire sentence fully? Did you see me roll my eyes? Are you serious?? I did not suggest that I personally believed he was addicted to propofol. It was from the pt. of view that IF someone wants to think this.

These are points of what we ALREADY KNOW the defense will try to use. You have to anticipate what their ammo will be, or take what they've already thrown out there and find ways to counter it. I took care NOT to post my own theories.

And nowhere in my post did I indicate that Michael was responsible for his own death. Again, it was strictly coming from the point of view of IF someone thought these types of things. You have completely misread and misunderstood me. Maybe that's the problem here. If that's my fault for how I expressed it, then my apologies. I just thought it was obvious what my point was and seems a few ppl did GET IT.

Having said all that, I STILL DISAGREE with you on this point: IF...IF...IF, by some chance, a history of propofol use for sleep can be established during trial, no, IT DOESN'T MEAN MJ HAD TO BE ADDICTED TO IT, tho some (NOT ME) may think this. IF, by chance, it can be established that Michael asked or consulted with any anesthesiologist for the tour, IT STILL does not exonerate Murray. That is my opinion as I've processed it and based on others' posts...they, too see and understand WHY. If you don't see it, that's fine. I'm not going to try and force you, okay? Respect that others may feel differently. Our goal is the same...tho it may not appear that way to you...STILL.


Again, IF a history of propofol use for sleep can be established or IF it turns out MJ may have consulted with others about it, it doesn't have to be Murray's get out of jail free card. I do not see that necessarily working towards the bully defense...as if the bully defense should even be a valid argument here. Do you believe it's valid? Maybe you do. I surely do not. Once more, MURRAY WAS THE DOCTOR. The buck stopped with him. Don't know how many more times or ways to say it, really.

If you still think I'm helping the defense, you can put me on ignore. I am done arguing this point with you or trying to explain it. If you don't understand now you never will or aren't trying to. I don't know...I just know I'm done defending my point. I stand by it and in no way, do I feel it aids anyone in defending Murray. In no way do I feel it throws Michael under the bus or does not support him. If you continue to see it that way, that's just the way you and whoever else sees it. I can't control how you process information. The end.

We'll pick it back up when the trial starts and the facts and evidence starts rolling out.
 
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Ignore is now the way to go.

This is exactly what the defense will argue, as I've explained, for the SENTENCING phase of the trial -- and try to pass it off as "mitigating factors."

You wrote:

"History of propofol has nothing to do with Murray's improper handling and rescuing in THIS particular incident."

The trial has two phases. Presentation of the case and verdict, and SENTENCING. "History of propofol use" (or NOT) has absolutely everything to do with that, and with justice for Michael.

I hope Murray gets the MAXIMUM sentence.

It's beyond obvious that this is the tactic the defense will try to use so that Murray gets off lightly.

Done with this discussion.

 
Ignore is now the way to go.

This is exactly what the defense will argue, as I've explained, for the SENTENCING phase of the trial -- and try to pass it off as "mitigating factors."

You wrote:

"History of propofol has nothing to do with Murray's improper handling and rescuing in THIS particular incident."

The trial has two phases. Presentation of the case and verdict, and SENTENCING. "History of propofol use" (or NOT) has absolutely everything to do with that, and with justice for Michael.

I hope Murray gets the MAXIMUM sentence.

It's beyond obvious that this is the tactic the defense will try to use so that Murray gets off lightly.

Done with this discussion.


You have made some very crucial points here. Good work.
 
You have made some very crucial points here. Good work.

Thank you. Murray committed a CRIME. That's all a jury should hear, but sadly, that is not all they will hear. One does not blame a rape victim for being raped, no matter what the circumstances. I think that kind of thing isn't even allowed in court! One does not blame (1% or 50%, or ANY percent) the victim of assault for "causing" the assault.

This will be a sympathy tactic for Murray. I just hope the judge/jury don't fall for it in terms of his penalty. That is far from certain, though.

Michael deserves the utmost in our respect. We really DO need to have his back, even now. .
 
im not sure if a forum is a way for a lawyer to check which tactics he must use.. so no im not really believing that.... in our country that is not even possible because of rights etc..
 
im not sure if a forum is a way for a lawyer to check which tactics he must use.. so no im not really believing that.... in our country that is not even possible because of rights etc..

That happened a lot during the trial, and sometimes it was obvious. Some of us who were "investigating" had hacking problems, as well. It DOES happen. A law firm has researchers (underlings), who do all sorts of things to gauge public opinion, and maybe even gain ideas. During the trial, Sneddon hired a PR firm (I think that was called something like "Tellem?") Anyway, the trolls were quite obvious.

There is nothing in the U.S., in terms of "rights," that would prevent someone in a law firm from looking at a message board.
 
This is "all about" Michael's murder. "History of propofol" is what the defense will try to prove.
I wonder if Cherylin Lee statements to the police in the Search Warrant Affidavit can have been one of the reasons why DA didn't increase the charges.

However, she said that the mentioning of the propofol was made on Sunday Easter (12th April) and according to the pharmacist's testimony that was around the time Murray was preparing his first order of propofol. She also said to the police that Michael had told her that his doctor had told him it was safe. So his questioning could have been a way of obtaining additional medical info.

"DDA Q: Next contact he had with Dr. Murray.
Lopez: Several days after April 3rd, he came in to tell me he was happy with the cream.

DDA Q: Did he ask if you were able to provide medications for his other clinics?
Lopez: Yes. He asked about propofol and saline bags.

DDA Q: Did he asked about what strength propofol?

Lopez: He asked about the specific price of propofol that you would be able to provide and saline bags.

DDA Q: Were able to provide him with the informtaiton?

Lopez: Subsequent phone calls, I was able to give him the relevant informaiton.
After that, he placed an order for propofol and saline bags. Telephone order.
.......
In her statement to the police she also mentioned the call she received from Michael's Personal Assistant on Father's Day to tell her Michael was not OK.

I wonder why they called the nurse instead of Murray. She was in Florida and said the call was in the evening. I can only infer there was not total trust in Murray.
 
That happened a lot during the trial, and sometimes it was obvious. Some of us who were "investigating" had hacking problems, as well. It DOES happen. A law firm has researchers (underlings), who do all sorts of things to gauge public opinion, and maybe even gain ideas. During the trial, Sneddon hired a PR firm (I think that was called something like "Tellem?") Anyway, the trolls were quite obvious.

There is nothing in the U.S., in terms of "rights," that would prevent someone in a law firm from looking at a message board.

I'm positive that they weren't checking here for facts.
 
i doubt the D.A ever had an interntion to file murder 2 charges as hes intresting in making his career which a conviction will do even if its a lesser charge. D.A's are to political in the usa.
 
IM is easier to prove but at least we know there was a tremendous debate in the DA office over whether to charge second degree murder or IM, according to Tom Mesereau.

And "one" (not the only one) of the reasons that could have contributed to that choice can have been the "history of propofol narrative" you were discussing and that for obvious reasons would have helped the defense if the charges were 2nd Degree Murder. For involuntary manslaughter, according to the DA in the preliminary, IT IS IRRELEVANT. (Coroner ruled it out still under a homicide, even allowing for the false conjectures of the defense we heard in the preliminary audience).
 
I wonder if Murray will admit to telling MJ it was safe and that he would watch him constantly
 
I wonder if Murray will admit to telling MJ it was safe and that he would watch him constantly


I dont think he will, he's lawyers will make sure he doesnt and warn him.
 
Of course not...
I think he would rather say he warned Michael how dangerous it is, but Michael insisted.
Low of the lowest.

but him admitting that would be even worse. Murray has said that he didn't give MJ anything that would've killed him but if he admits to telling MJ it was dangerous and he willingly gave his patient dangerous medication and didn't watch him how is that good for Murray? That proves that he willingly gave his patient harmful and dangerous drugs with reckless disregard for his life. He should be up on murder charges if he admits to that.
 
but him admitting that would be even worse. Murray has said that he didn't give MJ anything that would've killed him but if he admits to telling MJ it was dangerous and he willingly gave his patient dangerous medication and didn't watch him how is that good for Murray? That proves that he willingly gave his patient harmful and dangerous drugs with reckless disregard for his life. He should be up on murder charges if he admits to that.


I agree with this, Murray also has to explain why he gave MJ such a dangerous mix of other drugs before hand. His explanation of (weaning him off propofol) won't fly IMO, because they were given too close together, making them life threatening in themself, and thats whithout the propofol.
 
I wonder if Murray will admit to telling MJ it was safe and that he would watch him constantly

he can't really answer that question.....

He admits he said so = he lied, since he was not watching

He warned MJ it was dangerous = that's murder 2 IMO

He tries an answer "in between" : he told MJ he would do it in a safe way , meaning he would give him "light" doses of propofol , but MJ self injected / swallowed it. Wouldn't work either : why would you leave your patient alone when he was still under, alone with a drug he felt MJ was forming an addiction to ? If Murray's defense goes that way, it would also be very interesting to know why he bought so much flumazenil.

I try to stay objective, I'm aware it's sometimes hard, but I can't see anything for Murray's defense.
 
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