Detailed list of unreleased songs that could be released

[JichaelMackson]

Yeah I agree. I've said it before actually.

I liken it to great painters. When preparatory sketches or design ideas are found by Renoir or Van Gogh or Constable or Matisse, they are considered prized works. They sell for fortunes. They are studied in art and design schools the world over.

They aren't hidden away, played down, or even have their existence all out denied. They are cherished as fascinating insights into the workings of a genius artist.

And no, nobody tries to finish them off by giving them holographic makeovers or interactive VR nonsense.

Now that's a nice and fresh way of viewing the situation.

So who do I need to woo to listen to "rocker" and "water"? If anyone has them I promise to listen to them once and delete the files afterwards so that they cannot leak. You can pm me about it ;-)

 

[AlwaysThere]

Now that's a nice and fresh way of viewing the situation.

So who do I need to woo to listen to "rocker" and "water"? If anyone has them I promise to listen to them once and delete the files afterwards so that they cannot leak. You can pm me about it ;-)

I second this request

 

[SRT99]

I third.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I'm sure there's alot of unrelease stuff out there. half of us won't hear it because some of us gonna be dead to even listen to them. i hope they release more stuff before we all leave this earth.

 

[Fuzball]

I liken it to great painters. When preparatory sketches or design ideas are found by Renoir or Van Gogh or Constable or Matisse, they are considered prized works. They sell for fortunes. They are studied in art and design schools the world over.

Great analogy.

The Estates understanding of art ...


... even if there's a finished piece in the vault it can't get released without a contemporary touch.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Great analogy.

The Estates understanding of art ...


... even if there's a finished piece in the vault it can't get released without a contemporary touch.

Amazing

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Great analogy.

This is pretty much an apt description of Xscape.

 

[DuranDuran]

public domain

Wouldn't the Mona Lisa be considered public domain? So people can copy it and do whatever they want.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Michael Jackson would not have liked his unfinished music getting leaked.

Due to his perfectionism, while he was still alive he was very protective when it came to his unfinished music and in no way he wanted it to get leaked.

The Estate should respect and continue that attitude that he had.

For example, while he was recording an album, Michael Jackson used to hire at the same time all the recording studios in which his songs were being recorded (for a given album) in order to have exclusive access to these studios and also to prevent unauthorized hands from getting his unfinished songs with a view to leaking them.

Michael Jackson did not also want his completed songs (outtakes) to get leaked, such as the ‘Escape’ song leak case when the song leaked back in 2002 and he became so angry that he ordered his legal team to issue takedown notices to any Website sharing a download link to the song.

Also, many other famous artists aside music (including famous painters, sculptors, etc) have the same protective attitude like him about their unfinished/finished work (which is not meant to be seen by the public) to the point where they often place bids on that work at various auctions in order to retain personal possession of it and thus to continue being publicly hidden, which is something that I can completely understand.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Michael Jackson would not have liked his unfinished music getting leaked.

Due to his perfectionism, while he was still alive he was very protective when it came to his unfinished music and in no way he wanted it to get leaked.

The Estate should respect and continue that attitude that he had.

For example, while he was recording an album, Michael Jackson used to hire at the same time all the recording studios in which his songs were being recorded (for a given album) in order to have exclusive access to these studios and also to prevent unauthorized hands from getting his unfinished songs with a view to leaking them.

Michael Jackson did not also want his completed songs (outtakes) to get leaked, such as the ‘Escape’ song leak case when the song leaked back in 2002 and he became so angry that he ordered his legal team to issue takedown notices to any Website sharing a download link to the song.

Also, many other famous artists aside music (including famous painters, sculptors, etc) have the same protective attitude like him about their unfinished/finished work (which is not meant to be seen by the public) to the point where they often place bids on that work at various auctions in order to retain personal possession of it and thus to continue being publicly hidden, which is something that I can completely understand.

This.

 

[ChrisC]

Michael signed off on unfinished works being released publicly. The Ultimate Collection just one example.

 

[DanGerouS-]

do we know what he wanted after his death?
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a problem with releasing unfinished work, as long as his fans are happy.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Michael signed off on unfinished works being released publicly. The Ultimate Collection just one example.

Pretty sure Michael Prince confirmed that MJ did not know they were including those songs, and that they did not really have time to consult him on it

 

[AlwaysThere]

Michael signed off on unfinished works being released publicly. The Ultimate Collection just one example.

I thought this for the longest time, but TUC was put together in 2004, when Michael was largely preparing for the Arvizo trial. Sony evidently went straight to Matt Forger and Michael Prince and just pulled songs. That's precisely why Michael returned to several of them ("Cheater," "Scared of the Moon," "Beautiful Girl," "The Way You Love Me") after their release -- he wasn't yet finished with them.

Michael hated when people heard his unfinished music before it was ready.

 

[ChrisC]

I thought this for the longest time, but TUC was put together in 2004, when Michael was largely preparing for the Arvizo trial. Sony evidently went straight to Matt Forger and Michael Prince and just pulled songs. That's precisely why Michael returned to several of them ("Cheater," "Scared of the Moon," "Beautiful Girl," "The Way You Love Me") after their release -- he wasn't yet finished with them.

Michael hated when people heard his unfinished music before it was ready.

I remember Michael speaking at a fan event, in a disparaging way about Sony, and forgive my memory but I remember him talking about a song (perhaps The Way You Love Me) and Michael saying something along the lines of "so I just gave them"...does anyone remember what I'm talking about? I mean, if I'm remembering rightly it sounds like he knew about it?

What about the 2001 special editions? Off the top of my head Carousel was on there...

Or Thriller 25, Got The Hots?

I'm just remembering things off the top of my head here...

 

[AlwaysThere]

I remember Michael speaking at a fan event, in a disparaging way about Sony, and forgive my memory but I remember him talking about a song (perhaps The Way You Love Me) and Michael saying something along the lines of "so I just gave them"...does anyone remember what I'm talking about? I mean, if I'm remembering rightly it sounds like he knew about it?

What about the 2001 special editions? Off the top of my head Carousel was on there...

Or Thriller 25, Got The Hots?

I'm just remembering things off the top of my head here...

Yup! That was the Killer Thriller event back in 2002, where he said that he owed Sony a box set with "two new songs." I have no doubts that he knew about what would eventually become The Ultimate Collection, but it seems as though he wasn't involved in the actual planning or production.

The 2001 special editions featured demos of album tracks ("Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough," "Workin' Day and Night," and "Billie Jean"), previously released songs ("Someone in the Dark"), and fully-finished outtakes ("Carousel [Edit]," "Streetwalker," "Fly Away"). Nothing here is really unfinished other than the album demos, which came 20 years after the finished versions.

As for "Got the Hots," I'd argue that it's a finished song. Full vocals, complete-sounding production, etc.

These considerations are why I always pause when discussing future vault releases. I know as fans we want to hear the music raw and untouched, but that would quite literally go against Michael's own personal philosophy. He's never once (to my knowledge) sanctioned the release of an unfinished song.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I said this many times before. i respect michael if he didn't want some of his songs release. at the end of the day michael was human and had feelings whatever we agree with them or not. if that's michael wish then i respect his wishes.

 

[Pentum]

Michael Jackson would not have liked his unfinished music getting leaked.

Due to his perfectionism, while he was still alive he was very protective when it came to his unfinished music and in no way he wanted it to get leaked.

The Estate should respect and continue that attitude that he had.

For example, while he was recording an album, Michael Jackson used to hire at the same time all the recording studios in which his songs were being recorded (for a given album) in order to have exclusive access to these studios and also to prevent unauthorized hands from getting his unfinished songs with a view to leaking them.

Michael Jackson did not also want his completed songs (outtakes) to get leaked, such as the ‘Escape’ song leak case when the song leaked back in 2002 and he became so angry that he ordered his legal team to issue takedown notices to any Website sharing a download link to the song.

Also, many other famous artists aside music (including famous painters, sculptors, etc) have the same protective attitude like him about their unfinished/finished work (which is not meant to be seen by the public) to the point where they often place bids on that work at various auctions in order to retain personal possession of it and thus to continue being publicly hidden, which is something that I can completely understand.

You can't possibly know what Michael would have wanted post death with his unreleased music and videos. None of you can possibly know. It's not the same scenario as earlier when he was alive and would plan on completing his unfinished music for later albums (something he did a lot of, taking older songs and updating them musically and vocally).
Not wanting songs to leak while he was working on them for an upcoming project while he was alive is not the same as in post death where the only people who care about him are the fans, whom mostly would not mind hearing unheard and see unseen material.

By your logic, one should just destroy every single unreleased piece of MJ audio, since he would never have liked his unfinished music getting leaked/released, right? I mean, that's the best way to insure it will never be released. If not, it will inevitably leak, get traded, sold at black marked or released.

I just whole heartily disagree with you. I can see your point and good intentions on the subject, but I do not agree at all.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I'm not saying Michael unrelease stuff should be destroy. but like what pentum none us really know what michael would had want it after his death. but my opinion is if that what michael want it then we should all respected. i feel it makes us not fans at all if we don't respect michael for all he gave us.

 

[ChrisC]

Yup! That was the Killer Thriller event back in 2002, where he said that he owed Sony a box set with "two new songs." I have no doubts that he knew about what would eventually become The Ultimate Collection, but it seems as though he wasn't involved in the actual planning or production.

The 2001 special editions featured demos of album tracks ("Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough," "Workin' Day and Night," and "Billie Jean"), previously released songs ("Someone in the Dark"), and fully-finished outtakes ("Carousel [Edit]," "Streetwalker," "Fly Away"). Nothing here is really unfinished other than the album demos, which came 20 years after the finished versions.

As for "Got the Hots," I'd argue that it's a finished song. Full vocals, complete-sounding production, etc.

These considerations are why I always pause when discussing future vault releases. I know as fans we want to hear the music raw and untouched, but that would quite literally go against Michael's own personal philosophy. He's never once (to my knowledge) sanctioned the release of an unfinished song.

So you're gonna pick apart one-by-one (by way of splitting hairs) what are clearly multiple examples of unfinished, nearly finished, and demo tracks released on multiple official Michael Jackson releases across several years?

And I'd also like to point out that at no time was I speaking about unfinished material that was never finished anywhere else at any other point exclusively. Although I wasn't quoted by mj_frenzy, the post did address mine. And when I spoke about preparatory sketches and design ideas, that includes early versions of ultimately finished songs. Let's have a think off the top of my head, like The Girl Is Mine demo which was also officially released.

You know, I'll level with you, if I had to guess, I'd probably be more likely to agree that Michael did not like this type of material being out there, down to his obsessive perfectionist nature alone. But clearly there a couple of dozen examples of this type of material being released during Michael's lifetime so it muddies the waters for me. Without these examples, I'd be happy to tow the party line that "under no circumstances" would Michael want this type of material out there.

Oh and in no way is Got The Hots finished. I don't even think Sunset Driver is, although production wise it's certainly more finished than Got The Hots.

 

[Pentum]

MJ's unfinished and unreleased music has already been leaked and even released, violently edited, remixed, etc. post death, so why even bother questioning whether MJ would have liked to release his stuff post death or not. Why not rather focus on quality releases instead. The train is already moving.

 

[AlwaysThere]

So you're gonna pick apart one-by-one (by way of splitting hairs) what are clearly multiple examples of unfinished, nearly finished, and demo tracks released on multiple official Michael Jackson releases across several years?

Comparing a previously unheard and musically/vocally incomplete song (e.g., “Hollywood Tonight,” “I’m So Blue”) with a demo of a track that has been widely available in a finished form for decades (e.g., “The Girl is Mine,” “Billie Jean”) is nonsensical. That’s like saying, “Michael was responsible for the Thriller 25 remixes and signed off on dozens over the course of his career, so clearly he’d want the Estate to continue onward with the Xscape method and contemporize everything in the vault.”

Other than The Ultimate Collection (which we’ve already established was constructed without Michael’s involvement), there is not one official Michael Jackson release from 1979 to 2009 that presents a previously unreleased track in an incomplete state. There are innumerable examples, though, of Michael unequivocally stating that he didn’t want the public to hear a song until it was ready to be heard.

I am by no means saying his vault should be destroyed; quite the opposite. I just think it’s a fascinating conversation to have: how do you approach this music, if every method you have — releasing it raw and untouched, finishing it to the best of your ability, or remixing it to meet contemporary standards — goes against the artist’s wishes?

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

This been talk about many times before. it's sad that some fans don't respect people even michael at that matter and it's his music. :no: seriously this community has became toxic over the years. i want new music too but people really need to show respect. these type of people make the community and world look bad. they don't belong on this planet.

anyway i think i'm gonna leave this thread because i'm not condoning disrespect anyone wishes. have a blessed day.

 

[ChrisC]

Comparing a previously unheard and musically/vocally incomplete song (e.g., “Hollywood Tonight,” “I’m So Blue&#8221 with a demo of a track that has been widely available in a finished form for decades (e.g., “The Girl is Mine,” “Billie Jean&#8221 is nonsensical.

You keep missing the point. When I spoke of preparatory sketches or design ideas that includes anything that is a work in progress. Irrespective of whether Michael finished it whether he didn't. If anything, when I refer to preparatory sketches by famous artists, this speaks to works that formed the body of their most famous works. Finished pieces. But honestly, I mean anything that demonstrates an artist at work and shows the development of an idea.

Other than The Ultimate Collection (which we’ve already established was constructed without Michael’s involvement)

Not to my satisfaction you haven't.

there is not one official Michael Jackson release from 1979 to 2009 that presents a previously unreleased track in an incomplete state.

You've not read my post. Try again.

There are innumerable examples, though, of Michael unequivocally stating that he didn’t want the public to hear a song until it was ready to be heard.

He said a lot of things though, let's be honest.

Edit: Also, AlwaysThere, I'm stunned that you consider Got The Hots finished but I'm So Blue musically/vocally incomplete.

 

[SoCav]

Michael "studied the greats" himself. He was a collector. Do you really think he didn't listen to every outtake or look at every sketch he could find of the artists he admired? He must have known other people would want to do the same with his work in the future - it happens to every great artist. If he'd had extremely strong opinions on this, wouldn't he have included something about it in his will?

At the same time, it is of course possible that he simply had not fleshed out his opinions on this matter by the time he passed. In the end, we simply cannot claim to know with certainty how he would have felt, because afaik he never talked about what he wanted to happen to his work after his death explicitly. What does seem clear to me, is that you cannot compare him being upset about leaks, or not in favor of demos/outtakes being released while he was alive, to the release of such material posthumously. It's a completely different animal.

You can of course say the same for remixing or 'completing' material - we cannot claim to be fully certain that he would be against this just because there are indications that he really disliked his work being tampered with when he was alive. Still, I think there is an enormous difference between releasing demos and outtakes as they were left behind (saying: look, this is something this great artist was working on, these were his ideas, this was his process and why he was so amazing) versus taking the liberty to finish or demolish the work he did without spotlighting his artistry and releasing it as the 'new MJ record', having a hologram of an impersonator dance around to a remix of an old outtake, etc. The latter approach reduces the work he left behind to nothing more than a cheap money-making commodity, rather than a fascinating peek into the creative process of a masterful artist...

 

[Fuzball]

QUOTE=SoCav;4299007]

You can of course say the same for remixing or 'completing' material - we cannot claim to be fully certain that he would be against this just because there are indications that he really disliked his work being tampered with when he was alive. Still, I think there is an enormous difference between releasing demos and outtakes as they were left behind (saying: look, this is something this great artist was working on, these were his ideas, this was his process and why he was so amazing) versus taking the liberty to finish or demolish the work he did without spotlighting his artistry and releasing it as the 'new MJ record', having a hologram of an impersonator dance around to a remix of an old outtake, etc. The latter approach reduces the work he left behind to nothing more than a cheap money-making commodity, rather than a fascinating peek into the creative process of a masterful artist...[/QUOTE]

 

[AlwaysThere]

NatureCriminal7896 is right: the amount of childish behavior during simple conversation/debate is ridiculous. What happened to this community?

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Michael "studied the greats" himself. He was a collector. Do you really think he didn't listen to every outtake or look at every sketch he could find of the artists he admired? He must have known other people would want to do the same with his work in the future - it happens to every great artist. If he'd had extremely strong opinions on this, wouldn't he have included something about it in his will?

At the same time, it is of course possible that he simply had not fleshed out his opinions on this matter by the time he passed. In the end, we simply cannot claim to know with certainty how he would have felt, because afaik he never talked about what he wanted to happen to his work after his death explicitly. What does seem clear to me, is that you cannot compare him being upset about leaks, or not in favor of demos/outtakes being released while he was alive, to the release of such material posthumously. It's a completely different animal.

You can of course say the same for remixing or 'completing' material - we cannot claim to be fully certain that he would be against this just because there are indications that he really disliked his work being tampered with when he was alive. Still, I think there is an enormous difference between releasing demos and outtakes as they were left behind (saying: look, this is something this great artist was working on, these were his ideas, this was his process and why he was so amazing) versus taking the liberty to finish or demolish the work he did without spotlighting his artistry and releasing it as the 'new MJ record', having a hologram of an impersonator dance around to a remix of an old outtake, etc. The latter approach reduces the work he left behind to nothing more than a cheap money-making commodity, rather than a fascinating peek into the creative process of a masterful artist...

Completely agree with everything here. Just one example: Ernest Hemingway, throughout his life, always maintained that it was bad luck to talk about writing. Yet, the book “Hemingway on Writing” collected all of his thoughts on the topic from his correspondence, and it’s a brilliant insight into the mind of a master of his craft. This is what happens when you truly are an artist whose work is standing the test of time. People will want to know these things.

You can also order in your will to have your unpublished work destroyed by a steamroller, like Terry Pratchett did.

 

[DuranDuran]

bootleg

Michael "studied the greats" himself. He was a collector. Do you really think he didn't listen to every outtake or look at every sketch he could find of the artists he admired?

If Mike had bootlegs of a singer/band music is a totally different thing from the artist putting it out there for commercial sale to the public. Very few have had unfinished songs officially released like Elvis Presley and that was long after he had passed or The Beatles Anthology and deluxe reissues of Sgt. Pepper & White Album. Bob Dylan & Bruce Springsteen have released live recordings of concerts that were bootlegged and also to prevent bootleggers from selling them. And those releases are mostly classic rock acts and some older jazz like Miles Davis & Louis Armstrong. I've never seen that kind of thing for pop music, R&B, or dance music. With deluxe versions of pop, R&B, & dance albums, they're just remixes that came out at the time, single edits, & B-sides. Sometimes they have unreleased songs that are finished or newly created remixes like The Cure had put out.

There's a rumor that Stevie Wonder has it in his will that all of his unreleased music is to be destroyed after he passes. But Stevie said in an interview once that he enjoyed The Beatles Anthology CDs.

 

[Pentum]

Comparing a previously unheard and musically/vocally incomplete song (e.g., “Hollywood Tonight,” “I’m So Blue”) with a demo of a track that has been widely available in a finished form for decades (e.g., “The Girl is Mine,” “Billie Jean”) is nonsensical. That’s like saying, “Michael was responsible for the Thriller 25 remixes and signed off on dozens over the course of his career, so clearly he’d want the Estate to continue onward with the Xscape method and contemporize everything in the vault.”

Other than The Ultimate Collection (which we’ve already established was constructed without Michael’s involvement), there is not one official Michael Jackson release from 1979 to 2009 that presents a previously unreleased track in an incomplete state. There are innumerable examples, though, of Michael unequivocally stating that he didn’t want the public to hear a song until it was ready to be heard.

I am by no means saying his vault should be destroyed; quite the opposite. I just think it’s a fascinating conversation to have: how do you approach this music, if every method you have — releasing it raw and untouched, finishing it to the best of your ability, or remixing it to meet contemporary standards — goes against the artist’s wishes?

I actually disagree with you here; releasing a demo of a released song to me would be the same as releasing a demo to an unfinished song.

And beside the whole point - since Michael actually was alive, why would he even bother to release unfinished music? It's not the same situation as in after his death. I don't think it's a comparable situation. I might even go as far as saying that's the "proof" Michael wasn't really that much against releasing unfinished material, especially since he would no longer be here with us in the end. I am sure if you could ask Mike up in heaven "would you release your unfinished music if it would please your true fans, Michael? Or should we just lock it up forever?" Knowing Michael, he would probably tell them to release it, but let it stay true to it's original form or let the people who actually worked on the stuff, work on it... Can you really disagree here? I mean, would Mike really say "no" to that?

This been talk about many times before. it's sad that some fan don't respect people even michael at that matter and it's his music. :no: seriously did community has became toxic over the years. i want new music too but people really need to show respect. these type of people make the community and world look bad. they don't belong on this planet.

anyway i think i'm gonna leave this thread because i'm not condoning disrespect anyone wishes. have a blessed day.

You seem a bit too sensitive here; no one is arguing or fighting. We are having a normal civilized conversation about Michael's art. I can't see any disrespect here nor to MJ or to us here in the community. There is no different tone in this discussion as in the tone of a discussion in 2012 here at the forum for example.

NatureCriminal7896 is right: the amount of childish behavior during simple conversation/debate is ridiculous. What happened to this community?

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about? Have I missed some malicious posts here or are we all 12 years old here now all of a sudden?