[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I could just be completely wrong about this, paranoid, or looking far too much into this here, but I was just looking up about the waderobsonfans website for details of who it was registered to. I looked up a few of these websites, which all said the owners identity was private. I then came across this on one of them:


Domain Name: WADEROBSONFANS.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, LLC
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: PLEASEDROPTHISHOST23398.RACESNOW.BIZ
Name Server: PLEASEDROPTHISHOST23418.RACESNOW.BIZ
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 17-sep-2013
Creation Date: 11-oct-2000
Expiration Date: 11-oct-2014

Now there appears to have been an update made on the 17th-September-2013. A recent update on a site that has been shut down for years..? Which is also weird because that wasn't very long after Jonathan's forum posts had been posted all over Twitter, MJ pages, and it was said that Jonathan ran the website.

I am thinking that he has been monitoring MJ fans/MJ sites, and may have purposefully made the identity private to cover some tracks.

Now why do that if there is nothing to hide, and what they say is the truth?
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It's always funny to me when people wonder if people are really capable of making up such a lie for money. As if that did not happen over and over and over again in Michael's life. Provably. Starting from the Chandlers to all the ex-employees that sold salacious stories to tabloids for money. None of those stories existed before they saw the chance of cashing in on such stories... And we aren't talking only about the allegations but every other aspect of MJ's life in which people threw him under the bus for money.

Also, how is it hard to believe that people would make up such a lie for money, yet it's easy to belive that parents over and over and over again would pimp their children out to a pedophile for money and fame turning a blind eye? Or alternatively ALL of them were so stupid that they did not notice anything about such things as their kids repeatedly being raped for many years. Because if you want to believe in these allegations these are the type of things that you will have to believe.

People can kill for $100 dollars. So why is it so hard to believe that they would lie for millions? And people who are selfish and have no morals couldn't care less about the feelings of MJ's kids.

This exchange was on Wade's old website, many years ago when he was still a dancer. It came from someone who knew him (presumably his cousin). You can get some clues about his personality: "He always has to get things his way, no matter what, even if it hurts other people." I can imagine that for people like Wade and James Michael's children weren't even a thought on their mind when they started this. Selfish people do not think of anyone else but of their own interests.

33fdrfk.jpg
No, people know people will lie and use their kids. The only folks who will talk about this mess is haters. I have not seen too many people talk about it and the very few who have do not believe it. IT is TIRESOME NOW. And look, MJ new cd, new music, and all of a sudden this. These folks DEFENDED MJ even after death. I know what it is. MJ is dead and they think "oh well, MJ is gone and we can make money, we are not hurting him by lying on him.". The bottom line, MJ was more investigated than a serial killer and they still found nothihing; whereas these folks changed stories, defend and then change their minds, say one thing to cops but then changed when talking to tabloid papers. Enuf of it. Going out to celebrate the cd like everyone else. Even old Roger and others know this is bull. This is proven even more what MJ was talking about.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I have to be honest here - I smell a T-R-O-L-L in disguise....
I agree. Someone is putting these guys up to this.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

the average number of victims for a molester is really high , for someone like MJ who has access to all kinds of children all over the world , it should have been hundreds. Did not you know that from your research Larry ? Where r they? All of them loved him and repressed their memories? all of them loved to get abused ? all of them liked being raped ? SERIOUSLY ? none of them considered getting justice instead of money ? none of them thought of getting justice for themselves? For Wade , who you believe might be a victim , where did he acknowledge Gavin who lost his case because of his testimony ? If he was a victim and indeed want to get the truth out and now recognize what kind of monster MJ was , why Gavin did not get a public apology from Wade, NO WORD ON GAVIN, NO SINGLE WORD , WHY ??????

He claims he started groups for victims. However, another alleged victim was totally ignored , it was like he did not exsit and Wade's did not play any role in getting the alleged predator out of jail. From your first year at university please explain to us why Wade did not apologize to Gavin or his family ?

Because like you he believe Gavin was a liar ? If he was indeed abused (raped) , then how could he doubt Gavin was molested ?!!

Exactly. Also, why even CONTINUE to defend MJ even AFTER Death. Come on now. If MJ was an abuser, MJ would have went down in 2005. MJ by no means was given special treatment and the media and the world was against him until they start seeing the facts for themselves. As someone said, the 2005 case showed more about how false the 1993 case as well. Geraldo Rivera use to think MJ was guilty of the 1993 but after he got involved in the 2005, Geraldo saw for himself and believe MJ was innocent of ALL of it. I stil wish 2005 case was televised.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I could just be completely wrong about this, paranoid, or looking far too much into this here, but I was just looking up about the waderobsonfans website for details of who it was registered to. I looked up a few of these websites, which all said the owners identity was private. I then came across this on one of them:




Now there appears to have been an update made on the 17th-September-2013. A recent update on a site that has been shut down for years..? Which is also weird because that wasn't very long after Jonathan's forum posts had been posted all over Twitter, MJ pages, and it was said that Jonathan ran the website.

I am thinking that he has been monitoring MJ fans/MJ sites, and may have purposefully made the identity private to cover some tracks.

Now why do that if there is nothing to hide, and what they say is the truth?


Isn't it just maybe they have to renew the domain name yearly? But that too would be interesting: why does he want to keep this domain name if he doesn't want to work in showbiz any more?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think we need to not do Diane's work. She knew what she was doing by writing this story. So let's focus on the album not this guy he will be dealt with
Exactly.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Isn't it just maybe they have to renew the domain name yearly? But that too would be interesting: why does he want to keep this domain name if he doesn't want to work in showbiz any more?


It is cousin Jonathan who owns the site.

I am not sure if the update is because of a renewal of a domain name, because I remember doing the same and looking up mjfactsdotinfo for the name of that.... b*tch!:angry: a while back and came across this:

Domain ID: D36303878-LRMS
Creation Date: 2011-01-11T06:55:37Z
Updated Date: 2011-03-12T20:35:33Z

Now she obtained that website way back in 2011, and there are only 2 months in between these dates, and as far as I know, nobody has ever known or can find out who she is. So it seems that she may have hid her identity early on, and her update may have been her later using something like the domainsbyproxy website to hide her identity, as Jonathan may have done.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Exactly. Also, why even CONTINUE to defend MJ even AFTER Death. Come on now. If MJ was an abuser, MJ would have went down in 2005. MJ by no means was given special treatment and the media and the world was against him until they start seeing the facts for themselves.

I agree. Even ordinary people who are accused of terrible crimes get better treatment than Michael got. That's why I have such a low opinion about a lot of the judges who deal with Michael's cases. Judge Pastor was an exception. I appreciated how he tried to keep Murray's trial from becoming an absolute circus. But other judges have made highly questionable decisions, in my opinion. So I still don't have much faith in the justice system when Michael is involved. And that includes Wade's and James's cases.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I agree. Even ordinary people who are accused of terrible crimes get better treatment than Michael got. That's why I have such a low opinion about a lot of the judges who deal with Michael's cases. Judge Pastor was an exception. I appreciated how he tried to keep Murray's court case from becoming an absolute circus. But other judges have made highly questionable decisions, in my opinion. So I still don't have much faith in the justice system when Michael is involved.
Exactly. And this is what ticks me off when some folks want to discuss "repressed memory" or people who do not want to discuss being abuse until they are adults. These types of abuse people NEVER have any associate dealings with the people who abuse them. They are not friends, they do not visit these people if they are family members and they sure do not deal with real abusers if they were family friends; they do NOT attend in saddness when that abuser dies; and people who are abuse wants JUSTICE FIRST so if that person is revealed to be an abusers, others come out at THAT TIME OF ANNOUNCEMENT. NO person who is abuse will DEFEND someone who abuse him/her. Like I said, these folks have defended MJ for YEARS with passion in the voice against how MJ was treated. DO you think if MJ abused Wade that he would allow Wade to testiy for him IN COURT and have to go through UNDER CROSS EXAMINE? Like I said, MJ was against the world and the media was willing to play to send MJ down the road even to make money off MJ being arrested; And if MJ was an abuser, you mean to tell me, if you were abuse, you would not reveal your abuse at the time when it was FRESH and some folks was waiting for the fall of MJ (until they learned better and the facts)? No that does not happen. See, some folks get too caught up in "smoke an mirrors". I do not, I look at the KEY points of people's actions. MJ has NEVER backed away, he ALWAYS cooperated with police and the DA, he NEVER changed any of his story dealing with kids; however, all of these other folks, including the witness who were PROVEN under cross to be liars, did change their stories. And what they tell tabloids was not what they told cops not even that stupid maid Brancia. That is who you know is telling the TRUTH. See the thing about conartists, conartists know there are Four things to use to get a money making kneejerk reactions: (1)use kids ; (2) handicap/illness; (3) religion; (4) elderly. Look at the boy in the 2005 case. his family tired to use religion and child abuse to boost their claims. Garvin said he wanted to be a "priest" and he tried to use that a leverage, he used his cancer, and he was a kid. WHen a kid wants to be "priest" at a young age, he will be GREAT in school and very well behaved and carry himself in that manner. Garvin was NOTHING like that but his family used these thing to con folks. When I spoke about that case in my office at that time, one of the detectives said, " That kid sound like he was coached. He is saying things way beyond his years and his actions does NOT match what he claiming to be his goal". I think at this point, most people are tired of this nonsense with MJ. It is very clear these are witchhunts. The same way fans are asking these question, if this nonsense go to court, the courts are going to ask far more worst questions and these folks do not have a leg to stand on. Right now, most people are happy for the NEW MJ cd and the hologram last night. WIth all that has been said about MJ, many people still LOVE him and they were sad about his death. If many folks believed MJ was an abuser, THEY WOULD NOT BE CELEBRATING MJ. The love I see MJ getting in schools, in businesses, in cities (Jacksonville, Fl middle school has a large painting of MJ on their MIDDLE SCHOOl), in dance halls, everywhere. I just even saw a commercial for JEEP using the new song. That is how much LOVE people have for Michael. THere are ALWAYS going to be haters no matter who you are; however, as long as most and many people love him and his memory, that is all that matter. What all Wade said last year DID NOT effect MJ one bit.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I agree. Even ordinary people who are accused of terrible crimes get better treatment than Michael got. That's why I have such a low opinion about a lot of the judges who deal with Michael's cases. Judge Pastor was an exception. I appreciated how he tried to keep Murray's trial from becoming an absolute circus. But other judges have made highly questionable decisions, in my opinion. So I still don't have much faith in the justice system when Michael is involved. And that includes Wade's and James's cases.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. Never trust the justice system in California, they're the worst of American justice system. They screw the system to get back at Michael and the Estate. I never had any faith in any justice system anywhere and the judge better make the right call soon.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Someone said on another board that Upchuck's company got a screening of TII and campained on twitter for folks to go see the movie and such
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

well, according to Weiztman Chucky had a different look on his life only after Wade came out with his claims. So he might very well was supportive of TII.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I remember doing the same and looking up mjfactsdotinfo for the name of that.... b*tch! nobody has ever known or can find out who she is.

It's interesting that this person has gone to such a length to hide who they are, why do they need to hide? MJ's accusers are fine so it's not like someone would be coming after them to kill them or anything. Has anyone else ever suspected that DD might run it? Sometimes this person speaks the same way as her. Wouldn't be surprised if it were her since she's so obsessive. The real joke is that this person calls themselves an MJ PI. What a load of garbage!
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It's interesting that this person has gone to such a length to hide who they are, why do they need to hide? MJ's accusers are fine so it's not like someone would be coming after them to kill them or anything. Has anyone else ever suspected that DD might run it? Sometimes this person speaks the same way as her. Wouldn't be surprised if it were her since she's so obsessive. The real joke is that this person calls themselves an MJ PI. What a load of garbage!

I have suspected that myself. Someone suspected that Ray Chandler ran it too but since this person appears to be female, I dunno. I've never looked at that site myself but I've read excerpts from it and seen screenshots and it's disgusting how they talk about Michael on there. I can't believe that shithole of a site is allowed to exist. :mat:
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It's interesting that this person has gone to such a length to hide who they are, why do they need to hide? MJ's accusers are fine so it's not like someone would be coming after them to kill them or anything. Has anyone else ever suspected that DD might run it? Sometimes this person speaks the same way as her. Wouldn't be surprised if it were her since she's so obsessive. The real joke is that this person calls themselves an MJ PI. What a load of garbage!

A MJ PI? haha! No I really don't think it is DD. I could be wrong, but I personally think she sounds very British. ...ugh I hope not.

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This has just reminded me of some very odd comments that I once saw on Topix, which I am still curious about.

On Topix I noticed a conversation between MJfacts and another MJ hating user by the name of 'ononothimagin'. According to ononothimagin , they (ononothimagin) also goes by the online name of Krackerjacks. Sound familiar? I am pretty sure I have seen that username somewhere around the internet, slandering MJ.

Now in that convo, MJ facts asks ononothimagin if she could have some info about their book.

MJfacts says: "I can't seem to contact you through this website, and I wanted to ask you something about your book. I know you have left a couple of comments on my website. Could you contact me, either through this website or by sending an email to admin at mjfacts dot info. Of course if you would prefer not to, just let me know and I won't bother you again."
http://www.topix.com/forum/who/michael-jackson/TI8RGKH4S5TMIMIFL/p4

A book...? Strange. I would imagine the only type of books MJfacts would be interested are anti-MJ related books. In another post, I saw that this user ononothimagin says they are in their 50's.

Now, who in their 50's would have written anti-MJ type books?
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thomas O'Carroll?

That convicted pedophile who used Victor Gutierrez as his inspiration for his own book?

He used to post lots of reviews of MJ books on Amazon.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Gutierrez? His book is one detractors try to use and it's a bit harder to find now, not sure how many copies are still around after the lawsuit.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Gutierrez? His book is one detractors try to use and it's a bit harder to find now, not sure how many copies are still around after the lawsuit.

Is he married? :dntknw: I thought he was gay.


How old is Stacy Brown? He cannot possibly be in his 50's, can he?
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Is he married? I thought he was gay.

I worry that his interests may be in younger males. His book isn't condemning of the relationship he believes MJ and Jordan had. I found his book on Amazon, look how much is being asked for it new:
14223828941_c2ed9bede3_o.jpg

Ridiculous!!!
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The reason I thought of Gutierrez is because MJfacts on Topix said they wanted to ask ononothimagin something about their book. That made me wonder if MJfacts actually had the book they were wanting to know about or if they were wanting to ask about it because they didn't have it. Since MJWML is now harder to get I wondered if that's the one they were referring to.
 
MJresearcher;4009896 said:
I worry that his interests may be in younger males. His book isn't condemning of the relationship he believes MJ and Jordan had. I found his book on Amazon, look how much is being asked for it new:
14223828941_c2ed9bede3_o.jpg

Ridiculous!!!

That price is actually considerably cheap in comparison to what they are charging over here for it. £219-£294, which is $364-$494. Anyway...Yes, I too got that impression when reading parts of it online. I am not accusing him of it, but it wouldn't surprise me, as it wouldn't be the first time someone has wanted to get MJ for a crime they themselves are the ones guilty of.

I also find his obsession about MJ supposedly defecating himself, a little odd. Not that I believe the claims. I just got the impression that somehow he may have possibly had some sexual fantasies of MJ (or people) sh*tting themselves.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

That price is actually considerably cheap in comparison to what they are charging over here for it.

Wow, what a rip off! No way. Gutierrez has some strange things to say that's for sure.

I'm having a bit of a laugh to myself at the moment, this is why:

14204156756_291992f638_o.jpg


In DD's own article:

14040740119_368cd70113_o.jpg


Oops!
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ Haha! I know. Also, she says in The Daily Beast article that she has learned from her source that the *abuse occurred for several years, and then a few lines down in that same article, she goes on to say she learned from her source that the *abuse happened from the ages of 10-14 or 15.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Liars have to have good memories, she certainly doesn't.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I also find his obsession about MJ supposedly defecating himself, a little odd. Not that I believe the claims. I just got the impression that somehow he may have possibly had some sexual fantasies of MJ (or people) sh*tting themselves.

That bit came from that McManus lady, didn't it? At least, I believe he quoted her talking about such a thing in that book in the one excerpt I read. Going off of what else I've read about the book and Gutierrez himself it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was projecting his nasty-ass fantasies onto Michael. That man has problems and I don't see how ANYONE, even the most hardened of haters, could believe anything about that book.
 
Guiterrez IS a pedophilia advocat. I mean that is a fact. Just read the article below! The question is only if he himself is a pedophile, but I cannot see why anyone who is not a pedo himself would advocate pedophilia. Unless he's a shamless opportunist who is getting paid for it by NAMBLA.

[h=1]Victor Gutierrez and his role in the allegations against Michael Jackson[/h]Victor Gutierrez in front of a Michael Jackson This Is It poster

There were numerous journalists reporting on the Michael Jackson cases and among them there were those who were molding it, often in ethically questionable ways [for details see this article]. There is one journalist, however, who stands out as someone who influenced the media’s reporting and possibly even the formation of allegations against Jackson more than anyone else. His name is Victor Gutierrez.
The name Gutierrez might not sound familiar but many of the more popular journalists reporting on the Jackson case used Gutierrez as their source, apparently without vetting the “information” he provided. Diane Dimond called him one of her best sources and said of him “I have never had a doubt about this person, ever” [1]. He was also used as a consultant in “documentaries” televised about the Jackson cases, programs that were full of untrue claims, claims very biased against the entertainer.
Gutierrez not only acted as a source for other journalists but was also in contact with many people who later appeared as prosecution witnesses on the stand at Jackson’s 2005 trial. Additionally, according to journalist Maureen Orth, the prosecution in Jackson’s case relied on Gutierrez’s book, Michael Jackson Was My Lover (discussed below) and believed it to be accurate information: “The sources close to the prosecution I interviewed for this article were all familiar with the book and believed it was an essentially accurate portrayal of Jackson’s relationship with Jordie Chandler” [2], Orth wrote in her article published in the April 2003 issue of Vanity Fair, in which she too seems to give much credit to Gutierrez and his salacious stories.
The first time the wider public heard Gutierrez’s name in connection with the Michael Jackson case was on January 9, 1995 when Diane Dimond announced on KABC-AM radio’s popular morning show that the police had reopened their investigation against Jackson because of an alleged 27 minute video tape, captured by one of the star’s security cameras, supposedly depicting acts of molestation. Dimond painted a very vivid picture of what was on the tape, despite the fact that she had not seen it herself, attributing the story to one of her “best sources”.
Though Gutierrez was not named on that particular show, he was revealed later that day as her source on Dimond’s television show, Hard Copy, where Gutierrez himself made an appearance. Dimond aired the story on Hard Copy despite receiving a letter immediately after her appearance on KABC-AM from Jackson’s lawyer, Howard Weitzman stating that what she had alleged was not true.
Indeed, the whole story turned out to be a total fabrication. The alleged tape did not exist and as such, was never produced. In fact, the only person who had ever claimed to have seen it was Gutierrez. The boy whom Gutierrez claimed was being molested on the tape was Jermaine Jackson’s son and Michael Jackson’s nephew, Jeremy Jackson. Jeremy’s mother, Margaret Maldonado recalled the story in her 1995 book entitled Jackson Family Values:
“I received a telephone call from a writer named Ruth Robinson. I had known Ruth for quite a while and respected her integrity. It made what she had to tell me all the more difficult to hear. ‘I wanted to warn you, Margaret,’ she said. ‘There’s a story going around that there is a videotape of Michael molesting one of your sons and that you have the tape.’ If anyone else had said those words, I would have hung up the phone. Given the long relationship I had with Ruth, however, I gave her the courtesy of a response. I told her that it wasn’t true, of course, and that I wanted the story stopped in its tracks. She had been in contact with someone who worked at the National Enquirer who had alerted her that a story was being written for that paper. Ruth cross-connected me with the woman and I vehemently denied the story. Moreover, I told her that if the story ran, I would own the National Enquirer before the lawsuits I brought were finished.
To its credit, the National Enquirer never ran the piece. Hard Copy, however, decided it would. Hard Copy correspondent Diane Dimond had reported that authorities were reopening the child molestation case against Michael. She had also made the allegations on L.A. radio station KABC-AM on a morning talk show hosted by Roger Barkley and Ken Minyard. Dimond’s claims were based on the word of a freelance writer named Victor Gutierrez. The story was an outrageous lie. Not one part of it was true. I’d never met the man. There was no tape. Michael never paid me for my silence. He had never molested Jeremy. Period.” [3]
Jackson sued both Dimond and Gutierrez and while Dimond (with a little help from Santa Barbara District Attorney, Thomas Sneddon) escaped unscathed, Gutierrez was ordered to pay Jackson $2.7 million in damages. He never paid and instead fled the country and later filed bankruptcy.
Gutierrez’s next move was to publish a book in 1996 entitled Michael Jackson Was My Lover. The book contains graphic descriptions of alleged sexual acts between Jackson and his 1993 accuser, Jordan Chandler. It also contains graphic sexual descriptions of alleged sexual acts between Jackson and other boys – boys, who have always stated, in no uncertain terms, that the singer never molested or touched them in any sexually inappropriate way. Because of its pedophiliac content, major publishers in the United States were unwilling to publish the book. The minor publisher/distributor which did has since become bankrupt.
Gutierrez claimed that he based his book on Jordan’s diary, however the Chandlers say that Jordan never kept a diary. A diary in which Jordan documented his abuse would have been very important evidence in any investigation against Jackson but no such evidence was ever produced. Again, the only person who ever claimed to have seen the diary was Gutierrez, yet his book was blindly believed, according to Maureen Orth, even by the prosecutors.
It is pretty clear that rather than Jordan’s diary, the graphic sexual content in Gutierrez’s book was based on Gutierrez’s own perverted fantasies. Quite disturbingly, Gutierrez does not disapprove of the alleged abuse but instead celebrates it as a consensual love story, a wonderful “relationship”; it is no wonder since in the foreword of the book, amongst the credits he thanks NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association), an infamous pedophile organization [4]. Guiterrez, citing unnamed “experts”, advocates pedophilia in his book as something that is not harmful to children but misunderstood by society, and he uses the Chandler allegations in support of his point. For example, he writes:
“The cliché of pedophiles as old men who kidnap children in sacks is as erroneous as thinking that all homosexual men attack other male pedestrians on the street. Psychiatrists report that there are pedophile rapists and murderers, just as there are homosexuals and heterosexuals who commit these crimes. These same experts indicate that sexual relations between adults and minors are sometimes loving and do not have a negative effect on the youngster’s life. What better example than Jordie? He was more harshly affected by the legal procedures associated with his case than by his relationship with Jackson.” [4]
When Michael Jackson was accused of molesting Gavin Arvizo in 2003, Gutierrez, perhaps sensing another opportunity to further his agenda, became very active in the media. He assisted in the making of slanderous “documentaries” about Jackson. Apparently the people who employed him as an expert on the allegations against Jackson did not find his history, the fact that he was Court ordered to pay Jackson $2.7 million for lying about him, the pedophiliac theme of his book or his apparent association with NAMBLA problematic.
Snapshot of the credit list of NBC Dateline’s Inside The Jackson Case program with Victor Gutierrez listed as a consulting producer (though his name is misspelled)

In a September 2006 British GQ article about Gutierrez it is claimed he was even engaged to work on Martin Bashir’s Jackson documentary [5].
As revealing as his book was an interview with Gutierrez that appeared in a German newspaper, Tageszeitung, in April 2005 while Jackson was on trial. According to a 2010 article in the German Spiegel magazine, Tageszeitung actively advocated pedophilia in a series of articles in the late 70s and early 80s [6].
The newspaper’s journalist met with Gutierrez at a Hollywood hotel. The article is entitled “Es war Liebe!” (“It Was Love!”), referring to the alleged “relationship” between Michael Jackson and Jordan Chandler. It starts with the lie that Gutierrez’s book was based on Jordan’s diary and then details about Gutierrez’s life are presented. He grew up in Chile and became a journalist, later traveling to the USA in 1984, where he worked as a photographer at the Olympic Games in Los Angeles. Afterwards, he did not return to his country, instead he found a job with a Spanish newspaper. Then:
“In 1986 he reports from a conference of the North American Man Boy Love Association. The so called NAMBLA was founded at the end of the 70s. At the beginning, the “Support Group for Relationships Between Generations” was promoted prominently by Gore Vidal and Allen Ginsberg, then it was quickly isolated from the rest of the gay movement. At the conference Gutierrez hears for the first time: “Michael is one of us.” A pedophile. “Jackson was treated like an idol there, as a hope for social acceptance.” *

Gutierrez quits his job at the newspaper, talks to employees of Jackson, interviews the first boys. Soon he runs out of money for the research. He sells his car, saves money on food. He learns: there are different type of pedophiles, pedophilia is as old as the human race, not every game they play is a horrible crime. Victor Gutierrez says: “In the the five months of their relationship Michael Jackson and Jordie Chandler were happy. It was love.” [7]
(Emphasis added.)

[* Note: To be clear, Jackson has never been a member of NAMBLA and never had any association with them. What members express here is wishful thinking.]
To the question why aren’t there more boys accusing Jackson, Gutierrez again gives revealing insight into his “philosophy”:
“They are all afraid”, says Gutierrez. Not of Michael and his power but of public opinion. “It is about homosexuality”, Gutierrez opines, “nobody wants to be the gay Jackson boy”. His theory: if Madonna had an affair or a love relationship with a minor boy it would be a much smaller scandal. At the schoolyard the boy would be a hero. As Jackson’s lover he is a faggot.
“In a hundred years maybe such relationships will be accepted by society”, says Gutierrez. The story reminds him of Oscar Wild and his young lover, Bosi. As Gutierrez, who is a heterosexual himself*, was looking for a publisher for his book in 1995, he hears people say that he glamourizes pedophiles.” [7]
(Emphasis added.)
[* Note: In different interviews over the years Gutierrez has made conflicting statements about his own sexuality.]
While in this article Gutierrez does not protest against the claim that he “glamorizes pedophiles” and the journalist never challenges Gutierrez’s portrayal of pedophilia as some kind of consensual love relationship, in English language publications Gutierrez is more cautious.
In the September 2006 issue of the British GQ Magazine, in an article that is based on Gutierrez’s version of the events and thus clearly biased for him and against Jackson, the story of Gutierrez’s visit to the NAMBLA conference is rehashed but without naming the organization:
“Gutierrez began his investigation in 1986 when he went undercover with the LAPD. While attending a secret conference held by a suspect organization in LA, Gutierrez heard many references to Michael Jackson. So far as the world knew at the time, “***** *****” was just an eccentric. The fact he liked the company of young boys seemed no more suspicious back then than his hanging out with a chimp called Bubbles.” [5]
While in the Tageszeitung article it was suggested he was there as a reporter, in GQ it is claimed he went there “undercover with the LAPD”. It is very unlikely that the LAPD would engage untrained outsiders for undercover operations over their own trained officers. In actuality, it is very unlikely Gutierrez would have been present at a NAMBLA conference as an outsider (let alone as a reporter) because the organization is very cautious about who they let in and very secretive about the exact wherabouts of their annual conferences. [8] [9] Only members and people who NAMBLA trusts receive an invitation.
The GQ article’s main subject is a film that Gutierrez planned to make of his book with the help of Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey, founders of the World of Wonder production company. Based on what is said by the two producers in the article, like the book, the film would have also served the agenda of portraying supposed child molestation as a consensual, love relationship.
“Despite the explosive nature of the events it describes, the script is actually a model of amorous propriety. “We wanted to capture the intoxicating feeling of the first love which was what it was for Jordie”, says Bailey.
[…]
Central to the film, and the most controversial element in it, is the presentation of Jordie as a willing, even eager, participant in a relationship with a man he had worshipped since the age of four. “The only way the general public can view somebody like Jordie is as a victim,” says Bailey. “The fact that he might have entered into the relationship with Michael Jackson of his own volition is, for many people, tremendously problematic.” [5]
Earlier in the article Barbato is quoted as saying:
“In America we are up against the ‘eek’ factor. The Europeans don’t have that kind of squeamishness. America can deal with the sanitized version of the story, but our story is based on the tabloid version.” [5]
Barbato also acknowledges that their movie “goes outside of any of the acceptable norms”:
“However, the producer remains understandably cautious about the ultimate success of his undertaking. “Indie movies have gone mainstream in the States,” says Barbato. “They’ve become a genre. But this project is independent in the true sense of the word. It goes outside any of the acceptable norms.” [5]
After Gutierrez visited the conference of the “suspect organization” in 1986, the 2006 GQ article states, he started to “strike up friendships” with some of Jackson’s employees:
“For the next five years Gutierrez tracked down as many of Jackson’s current and former associates as he could. Being Latino himself helped – it was relatively easy for him to strike up friendships with Jackson’s El Salvadorean maid, Blanca Francia, who left Jackson’s employment in 1991, and the star’s Costa Rican PA (personal assistant), Orietta Murdock, who sued him for unfair dismissal in 1992.” [5]
Again we read that after that NAMBLA conference, where pedophiles express the wish that Jackson become one of them, a celebrity poster boy as a “hope for social acceptance” [7] of pedophilia, Gutierrez goes on a mission and strikes up friendships with some of Jackson’s employees. The same employees who would later make allegations against the star.
There are also facts to consider about a possible connection between Gutierrez and Jackson’s first accusers, the Chandler family. According to the 2006 GQ article, Gutierrez became interested in the Chandlers when he saw Jordan, his mother and sister in Jackson’s company at several events during that time, including the 1993 World Music Awards in Monaco.
“A pariah in the celebrity-sucking world of freelance entertainment journalism, Gutierrez was forced to give up his writing and for a while supported himself by selling satellite dishes. Then, in 1993, his interest was reawakaned when he heard about a boy called Jordie Chandler with whom Jackson was appearing at huge media events, such as the World Music Awards in Monaco.” [5]
As we have shown in other articles the Chandler accusations did not originate from Jordan Chandler himself. It was his father, Evan Chandler who first had the preconceived idea that the friendship between his son and Jackson was sexual; it was Evan Chandler who pressured and threatened the boy into corroborating his idea. [For details see our articles Evan Chandler’s “Suspicions” and How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?]
Remarkably, like Gutierrez, Evan Chandler spoke of supposed child molestation as if it was a consensual romance. In Ray Chandler’s book, All That Glitters, they even feel the need to explain in a footnote why the alleged “relationship” between Jordan and Jackson is described as a love story:
“Evan and Monique’s belief at the time, that Jordie and Michael were “in love,” is significant to the problem of understanding sexual molestation in older children. It did not occur to them that the thirteen-year-old was not a willing participant.” [10; page 45]
In a secretly taped phone conversation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz that took place on July 8, 1993 (so before Jordan allegedly “confessed” to Evan about the alleged molestation – for the circumstances of that alleged confession see our article How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?), Evan claims that it were other people who convinced him of the harmfulness of the friendship between Jackson and Jordan. He calls these people “experts”, although does not make it clear who these alleged experts were and in what field they had an expertise in. [11] Whether one of these alleged “experts” was Victor Gutierrez or not, we cannot tell, however there are additional facts to consider about a possible connection between Victor Gutierrez and Evan Chandler:
In his book, Gutierrez presents legal correspondence, letters belonging to the Chandlers and private photographs of Jordan, his room and the Chandler’s house. Gutierrez befriended the Chandlers’ maid, Norma Salinas, so those documents could have been provided by her. However, Gutierrez’s book also contains stories, with varying details, identical to entries that appear in Ray Chandler’s All That Glitters, a book which was published almost ten years after Gutierrez’s publication.
Another inference to a probable collaboration between the Chandlers and Gutierrez is the fact that a drawing allegedly made in October of 1993, by Jordan of Jackson’s private parts includes text that makes mention of the name “Orietta” twice. [More about that drawing in this article.] Jackson employed a personal assistant named Orietta Murdock whom he fired in 1992. Orietta Murdock, however, no longer worked for Jackson in 1993, when the star spent time with the Chandler family. Why would Jordan or any of the Chandlers make references to an “Orietta” while attempting to describe Jackson’s private parts? The link between Murdock and the Chandlers is Gutierrez. In the 2006 GQ article Orietta Murdock is mentioned as one of the Jackson employees that Victor Gutierrez befriended.
If there was indeed a collaboration regarding the allegations in 1993 between the Chandlers and Gutierrez, the relationship must have turned sour later because in 2004 Ray Chandler, while making his rounds in the media and promoting his book, called Gutierrez a “sleazebag” and stated that he did not endorse his book [12].
In the 2006 GQ Magazine article it is claimed that “after the first phase of his research” [5] Gutierrez sent a copy of his book to the LAPD, but they took no action “because I was a nobody, just a Latino reporter in LA” [5]. (Take note that just a couple of paragraphs earlier it is claimed that Gutierrez was at that NAMBLA conference in 1986 “undercover with the LAPD”.) In Michael Jackson’s FBI files, released in 2009, a couple of months after the singer’s death, there is no information about a book sent to the LAPD. However, there is a document concerning a writer who called the LAPD on December 27, 1993, claiming that “he has been writing a book about Michael Jackson concerning allegations of sexual molestation of children” [13]. The caller, whose name is concealed in the FBI document, claimed that “he had information that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 1985 or 1986, investigated allegations against Jackson for reportedly molesting two Mexican boys” [13]. He also claimed the investigation was “covered up” [13] because “Jackson was to receive an honor at the White House from the President” [13]. Jackson actually received the honor at the White House in 1984.
The LAPD did not take action, not because the caller was “a nobody” but because the claim was absolutely untrue. The document states that they checked the FBI indexes both automatically and manually and found no reference to such an investigation. Keep in mind that at that time the Chandler investigation was ongoing and the LAPD was eager to find evidence against the singer. It is nonsensical that the FBI would ignore any damning information against Jackson. The FBI ignored the information because it had no basis in reality.
In a Los Angeles Times article dated August 28, 1993, it is claimed that Victor Gurierrez was among the first people whom the police interviewed in regards to the case against Jackson (the allegations were formally made on August 17, 1993): “One of those interviewed was Victor Gutierrez, a Southern California free-lance journalist who has been working on a book about Jackson for several years. Gutierrez spoke to LAPD officers for two hours Thursday and was interviewed again Friday. He would not disclose what transpired during those sessions, but he told The Times that he has interviewed for his book some of the same youngsters being sought for questioning by the LAPD.” [14]
Many of the witnesses who testified for the prosecution at Jackson’s 2005 trial, and on whom the prosecution’s “prior bad acts” case was mostly built, were people who had contact with Victor Gutierrez prior to selling their stories. Former security guard, Ralph Chacon testified he and other ex-employees of Jackson (whom the media often called the “Neverland 5”) spoke to Gutierrez before they went to sell their story to The Star magazine [15]. Former security guard, Kassim Abdool testified that he met Gutierrez once and they had a two, three hours conversation [16]. Former maid, Adrian McManus testified that Gutierrez “was going to try to help us in our lawsuit” [17]. Another prosecution witness was former maid, Blanca Francia, who is mentioned in the 2006 GQ article as one of the Jackson employees Gutierrez befriended shortly after his visit to NAMBLA in 1986 [5]. In Gutierrez’s book there is a photo of the two together [4].
Other people whom Gutierrez befriended, such as as Orietta Murdock or the Chandlers’ El Salvadorean maid, Norma Salinas, did not testify but they made their rounds in the media selling salacious lies about Jackson to tabloids.
Michael Jackson was the most internationally famous victim of Gutierrez’s lies and manipulation, but he was not the only one. In late 2003 in his home country Chile, Gutierrez published an article in which he linked a politician of a right-wing political party to a pedophile ring. Gutierrez’s article gave a detailed description of what allegedly went on in the house of a businessman, Claudio Spiniak, who was arrested just a few days earlier for operating a pedophile ring. Gutierrez claimed that a senator of the Alliance for Chile (a coalition of right-wing political parties) participated in those pedophile orgies. He did not name the politician in his article but alleged that the senator’s name was given to authorities. Later in an interview conducted by Gutierrez for a TV program, a minor boy, a street child, claimed to have seen a well-known right-wing politician at Spiniak’s orgies. [18] The boy later retracted his claim and it was revealed that Gutierrez paid him 10,000 to 20,000 Chilean pesos. In February, 2004 Gutierrez’s lawyer acknowledged the payment but claimed it was only a “humanitarian gesture”, not something given in exchange for the interview and false accusations. Authorities could not find any link between the pedophile ring and any politician of the party accused by Gutierrez but the rumors were enough to tarnish the public image of the right-wing coalition and certain politicians. [19] [20] [21]
In 2008 Gutierrez was sentenced to 61 days in jail and ordered to pay 30 million Chilean pesos (approximately $60,000) to former Miss Universe, the ex-wife of Argentina’s former president, Carlos Menem, Cecilia Bolocco for untrue and slanderous claims he made about her private life. This was considered a precedent, the highest amount of compensation ever awarded in this type of case in Chile [22].
Victor Gutierrez, the man accredited by media journalists and the prosecution as being a reliable source of information on Michael Jackson, whose stories inspired many media articles and “documentaries” about the star, and to whom the very origin of the allegations against Jackson may be traced is a man who has been convicted as a liar in a court of law, not once but at least twice and not in one but in two different countries.
Victor Gutierrez, a man who has expressed disturbing views about pedophilia, who has written a graphically sexual work of fiction, replete with pedophiliac fantasies about an alleged mutual “relationship” between a man and a child; a man who had the audacity to thank NAMBLA in the foreword of this book; who by his own account, visited a NAMBLA conference in 1986 was directly involved in helping to shape and form the false allegations made against Jackson.
Sources:
[1] Interview with Diane Dimond on The Ken and Barkley Company morning show (KABC-AM Radio, January 9, 1995)
[2] Maureen Orth – Losing His Grip (Vanity Fair, April 2003)
http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2003/04/orth200304 (page 4)
[3] Margaret Maldonado – Jackson Family Values: Memories of Madness (Newstar Pr, November 1995)
[4] Victor Gutierrez – Michael Jackson Was My Lover (Alamo Square Dist Inc, 1996)
[5] Robert Sandall – Michael Jackson Was My Lover (Brtish GQ Magazine, September 2006)
[6] Jan Fleischhauer and Wiebke Hollersen – The Sexual Revolution and Children, How the Left Took Things Too Far (Der Spiegel, July 2, 2010)
http://www.spiegel.de/international...-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679-3.html
[7] “Es war Liebe!” (Die Tageszeitung, April 5, 2005)
http://www.taz.de/1/archiv/?id=archivseite&dig=2005/04/05/a0170
[8] FBI Agent Robert Hamer’s undercover operation as described in Order Amending Opinion and Amended Opinion – USA v. David Cary Mayer
Page 8.: “He requested an invitation to NAMBLA’s 2002 conference but was denied because he had not been a member for a long enough period of time.”
USA vs Mayer
[9] Onell R. Soto – Little-known group promotes ‘benevolent’ sex (February 17, 2005)
Quote: “The annual meetings, Polhemus said, were hush-hush affairs. Attendees were told to go to the host city, and the venue was not disclosed until the last minute.
“They don’t want press and they don’t want the cops showing up,” he said.”

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050217-2208-manboy-daily.html

[10] Raymond Chandler – All That Glitters: The Crime and the Cover-Up (Windsong Press Ltd, September 2004)
[11] Taped phone conversation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz (July 8, 1993)
schwartz_chandler
[12] *****: Accuser’s Uncle to Publish Exposé (FoxNews, September 8, 2004)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131615,00.html
[13] Michael Jackson’s FBI files as released in 2009
http://vault.fbi.gov/Michael Jackson/Michael Jackson 62 File Part 2 of 3/view (Page 52)
[14] Charles P. Wallace and Jim Newton – Jackson Back on Stage; Inquiry Continues (Los Angeles Times, August 28, 1993)
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-08-28/news/mn-28760_1_michael-jackson
[15] Ralph Chacon’s testimony at Michael Jackson’s 2005 trial (April 7, 2005)
[16] Kassim Abdool’s testimony at Michael Jackson’s 2005 trial (April 25, 2005)
[17] Adrian McManus’ testimony at Michael Jackson’s 2005 trial (April 8, 2005)
[18] La prensa y el caso Spiniak (El Periodista, August 27, 2004)
http://www.elperiodista.cl/newtenberg/1682/printer-63826.html
[19] Abogado confirma que Víctor Gutiérrez entregó dinero a L.Z. (Emol.com, February 11, 2004)
http://www.emol.com/noticias/nacion...que-victor-gutierrez-entrego-dinero-a-lz.html
[20] UDI: se confirma tesis del montaje (LaNacioncl, February 12, 2004)
http://rie.cl/lanacioncl/?a=15112
[21] Víctor Gutiérrez reconoce que pasó su billetito a menor del caso Spiniak (La Cuarta, February 12, 2004)
http://www.lacuarta.cl/diario/2004/02/12/12.04.4a.CRO.GUTIERREZ.html
[22] Millonaria sentencia a favor de Cecilia Bolocco remece a la farándula local (El Mercurio, October 30, 2008)
http://www.emol.com/mundografico/?F_ID=657315

http://michaeljacksonallegations.co...e-in-the-allegations-against-michael-jackson/
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I read the same thing on the Vindicating Michael blog but that was a while ago. This is why I don't understand DD, she hasn't got a problem with him which is really disturbing. Maybe she keeps him around because she thinks he's some kind of pedophilia expert? He should be if he hangs around with NAMBLA. The fact that he's been so public about his involvement with them makes my stomach turn. At least he accidentally slipped up about the whole working undercover lie. I bet there's skeletons in his closet!
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

That bit came from that McManus lady, didn't it? At least, I believe he quoted her talking about such a thing in that book in the one excerpt I read. Going off of what else I've read about the book and Gutierrez himself it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was projecting his nasty-ass fantasies onto Michael. That man has problems and I don't see how ANYONE, even the most hardened of haters, could believe anything about that book.

Was it? Sorry, I may have got it wrong then. I haven't read the entire thing, only parts of it. I was actually talking about some things I read on VG's declaration documents. I presumed these were VG's quotes which he wrote for his book.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkQf7WAIEAIu4oZ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BkQfy9QIEAA8IYq.jpg

Well whoever quoted these things sure sound like they have some disgusting fantasies involving faeces, or people covered in faeces.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

DD is just a stupid tabloid journalist, nothing more. Her only interest is to write sensationalist stories about Michael, not to uncover any truths and to do true investigative journalism.

Actually people did tell her on Twitter that VG was likely a pedo but she either acts like she had nothing to do with him or dismisses the claim entirely. As long as it's not MJ she can trash she doesn't care. None of MJ's detractors do. That includes the prosecution. To think that the prosecution read VG's book and it did not raise red flags to them about VG... just shows the utter bias in this case.
 
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