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Father's Tell-all Documentary "MAKING MICHAEL"

Let's be fair here, the statement regarding colour and this type of punishment did come direct from KJ during the Oprah interview. I don't agree with it, I never agree with one fits all statements.

But it this is clearly how KJ has decided in her head that it was ok to stand by and watch her children being abused in such a manner, I wouldn't be able to and it wouldn't matter to me if I got the beating instead.

It's not just KJ who has played this down, prior to Michael's passing the siblings had a bit of a competition as to who got it the worst but since his passing they appear to have played it down and making excuses.

As far as many of them abusing their own children I would say it is learned behaviour, which is not an excuse as clearly you can break the mold if you choose to.

I could never say that Joe or anyone else didn't or doesn't love Michael but I can say that I will never understand the Jackson way.

ETA Where did the oiling down come from, I never heard that until more recently?
 
^Michael said that in the tapes the rabbi recorded, it broke my heart to hear him. He also said if I remember correctly, he didn't feel loved as as child, that's why he wanted to do things right and to please his parents and people around him, to be loved. I wouldn't blame him for being confused at all, like I said before, if the Jackson's claim to love him, they have a f*cked up way to show it. I mean, putting money way above their children's well being it's f*cked up and both of them have done it, not just Joe and the siblings as well.

Signs both KJ and Joe sucked at parenting big time are the issues they make their children having, specially Michael and how most of them turned out, I agree with MichaelYouAreAStud, money whores and deadbeat people because they've wanted to rely on Michael to pay their bills, I'm not just talking about not supporting their children. Another sign was the fact they didn't raise them to be responsible and ethical human beings (that's why I've often thought Michael raised himself! :p)
 
LastTear said:
Let's be fair here, the statement regarding colour and this type of punishment did come direct from KJ during the Oprah interview. ....
ETA Where did the oiling down come from, I never heard that until more recently?
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Agreed, the nonsense about Joe's beatings being normal (and acceptable) for African Americans came from Katherine's "Michael's nose was like a toothpick" cozy interview with a woman who did everything she could to convince the world that Katherine's child was guilty of a heinous crime during the 2005 trial. As usual, Katherine supported and contributed to the mistreatment of MJ, both privately in their abusive home during MJ's childhood and publicly in the media with bullying figures like NOprah.

BTW- The "oiling down" story came directly from MJ in the Rabbi Schmuley tapes/book.
MJ talking about Joe: "He was rough. The way he would beat you was hard, you know? He would make you strip nude first. He would oil you down. It would be a whole ritual. He would oil you down so when the tip of the ironing cord hit you [makes noise mimicking] you know... and it would just be like dying and you had whips all over your face, your back, everywhere. And I always heard my mother, like, 'No Joe! You're gonna kill 'em. You're gonna kill 'em, no!' And I would just give up, like there was nothing I could do. And I hated him for it, hated him. We all did."
 
I see there is a white washing going on in Jackson household since Michael's passing.
Now cubs are trying to deny beatings weren't that bad as MJ made it out to be, and Joe is trying to clean him monster image by the usual crap.

I was reading transcripts of Granda tapes
Transcript 3:2, around February 1991

MJ: I’m torn between mother and LaToya.
Sam: That must be hard on you.
MJ: When you’re brought up… We used to play at the club circuits and stuff like that, you know, with all the black groups and it’s like, you’re brought up and then we finally went with Motown and stuff. You’re brought up… You’re taught to be a certain way because you’re in the public eye. The close-knit, the close-knit family, the tight-knit family, whatever, and “Papa Joe this,” and “Papa Joe was wonderful,” and “Papa Joe helped do this and that.” When things start falling apart, then you gotta cover for it, you know, because you’re out there and you gotta cover for it. I would come home. We would come home from sessions and if we didn’t do something right, we’d get beat with a sock full of wet sand because it didn’t leave bruises. We’d go to the studios the next day and, and, you know, people in the business, people in the Motown family, they knew what was going on. I mean if you did something wrong and Joseph was there, he’d slap the mess out of us. They knew what was going on but it was like, you have to portray this certain image. You have to smile and everything. And everything like “y’all so tight.” “The Jackson family came from poverty, you know, from being nobody” and (I)
Sam: ?
MJ: Joseph is dangerous.

That was 1991, and they are still at it.
 
Thanks guys, I haven't read or listen to the Schmuley tapes.
 
^You should read the fan version without the stupid rabbi's comments on jetzi Last Tear, some of the things Michael said were pretty interesting. The Glenda tapes are such a jewel because Michael revealed the Jackson's true colors, I assume the ones who continue defending them or their ways is because they haven't listened to the conversations, they should.

MJ: It’s like, “The Jackson family, they’re so wholesome.” And we all took pictures together back in the Jackson 5 days with Motown and stuff like that. We were all so close and Joseph was, you know, “Papa Joe”. You know. And then LaToya told the truth (LaToya’s book was published in ’91 revealed the extent of the abuse by Joe). They portray everything you know, because of publicity. “The Jackson family. They lived in a ghetto in Gary, Indiana and they made it and they’re so tight knit.” Tight knit, my ass.
 
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I remember LaToya said in one of her books that she was beaten by Joseph for bringing home a report card he didn’t like. She was six years old at the time. She said when he was done with the beating he grabbed her by the hair and dragged her into the bathroom where he threw her on the cold tile floor. She was commanded not to move. She said her knees were raw and she laid there for hours with swollen eyes crying. She said late that night Katherine finally came in, washed her cuts and put her to bed.

Margaret said she and the nanny would try and stop Jermaine from beating her kids and he would push them away and lock himself and the kids in the bathroom so he could beat them uninterrupted. She said she complained to Katherine and KJ agreed with Jermaine that the boys needed “disciple”. One of the main reasons Margaret left was because of his violence toward her and the children. He also gave her syphilis. Margaret also said the bodyguards had to save Jackie from getting shot by Joe.

Joe's defenders can read all this on Jetzi.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan;4027392 said:
^You should read the fan version without the stupid rabbi's comments on jetzi Last Tear, some of the things Michael said were pretty interesting. The Glenda tapes are such a jewel because Michael revealed the Jackson's true colors, I assume the ones who continue defending them or their ways is because they haven't listened to the conversations, they should.

MJ: It’s like, “The Jackson family, they’re so wholesome.” And we all took pictures together back in the Jackson 5 days with Motown and stuff like that. We were all so close and Joseph was, you know, “Papa Joe”. You know. And then LaToya told the truth (LaToya’s book was published in ’91 revealed the extent of the abuse by Joe). They portray everything you know, because of publicity. “The Jackson family. They lived in a ghetto in Gary, Indiana and they made it and they’re so tight knit.” Tight knit, my ass.
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Thanks, I think at the time I was put off by the rabbi's comments, I will check that out. I have listened to the Glenda tapes, which were a telling insight.
 
Victory22;4027405 said:
I remember LaToya said in one of her books that she was beaten by Joseph for bringing home a report card he didn’t like. She was six years old at the time. She said when he was done with the beating he grabbed her by the hair and dragged her into the bathroom where he threw her on the cold tile floor. She was commanded not to move. She said her knees were raw and she laid there for hours with swollen eyes crying. She said late that night Katherine finally came in, washed her cuts and put her to bed.

Margaret said she and the nanny would try and stop Jermaine from beating her kids and he would push them away and lock himself and the kids in the bathroom so he could beat them uninterrupted. She said she complained to Katherine and KJ agreed with Jermaine that the boys needed “disciple”. One of the main reasons Margaret left was because of his violence toward her and the children. He also gave her syphilis. Margaret also said the bodyguards had to save Jackie from getting shot by Joe.

Joe's defenders can read all this on Jetzi.
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Jeesh... living in that household must have been like being in the house of horrors!!!:scare:

Doesn't surprise me about Jermaine. I can tell by the way Halima acts that she is probably routinely mentally abused... don't know about physical. Anything is possible.

And some fans to this day still try to defend this behavior as "discipline"??<_<

Is that how they discipline their own kids?
 
LastTear said:
Thanks guys, I haven't read or listen to the Schmuley tapes.
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I haven't either, or the other ones mentioned (something about Glenda). Just reading what was posted in this thread made me :cry: and it made me sick!

How can someone NOT tell their children they love them, not show them? None of us asked to be in this world; that lies with our parents. I'm so very thankful and happy that I had love, knew love, was shown LOVE by my parents in the short time I had with them before they died!

I'll pick QUALITY time over quantity time any day!

Mike got two POS for parents. . . :(
 
SheilaMJFan4Ever said:
How can someone NOT tell their children they love them, not show them? None of us asked to be in this world; that lies with our parents. I'm so very thankful and happy that I had love, knew love, was shown LOVE by my parents in the short time I had with them before they died!
Mike got two POS for parents. . . :(
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Because to Joe those kids were commodity - means to make money, and obviously Joe wanted them to keep it strictly business, so they weren't even allowed to call him dad, they had to call him Joseph. He wasn't making any money out of Joh'Vonnie, so she was allowed to call him dad.
 
^^^^^^That is seriously sad.

I hope Michael was proud that he broke the mould, and maybe Marlon too as I haven't heard of him abusing his own children.
 
LastTear said:
^^^^^^That is seriously sad.

I hope Michael was proud that he broke the mould, and maybe Marlon too as I haven't heard of him abusing his own children.
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Yeah, Joe and KJ seriously f...ed up in parenting.
Nearly all of their kids got run off and got married without telling their parents, and thats says a lot.

Yes, it is great that even thou Michael lived in very abusive environment, he didn't take up after Joe or KJ what comes to parenting. Jermaine, Randy and few others are known to be violent towards their partners, kids and other people, so what was the thing that separated Michael from them?
 
LastTear said:
Let's be fair here, the statement regarding colour and this type of punishment did come direct from KJ during the Oprah interview. I don't agree with it, I never agree with one fits all statements.

But it this is clearly how KJ has decided in her head that it was ok to stand by and watch her children being abused in such a manner, I wouldn't be able to and it wouldn't matter to me if I got the beating instead.

It's not just KJ who has played this down, prior to Michael's passing the siblings had a bit of a competition as to who got it the worst but since his passing they appear to have played it down and making excuses.

As far as many of them abusing their own children I would say it is learned behaviour, which is not an excuse as clearly you can break the mold if you choose to.

I could never say that Joe or anyone else didn't or doesn't love Michael but I can say that I will never understand the Jackson way.

ETA Where did the oiling down come from, I never heard that until more recently?
Click to expand...

Everyone who cares about Michael should listen to his own words how he felt and what he experienced. Don't let Rabbi Shmuley sidetrack you. Listen to Michael's own words. Very heartbreaking.

 
Thank you GreenEyes,
I think as fans we owe it to Michael to never allow what he suffered to be whitewashed by his family who are now attempting to re-write history. Michael was brave enough to break the silent veil and speak out about his horribly abusive childhood. We heard in the tape Murray made of him while under the influence of medication shortly before his death that he was still deeply hurt, scarred and wounded by Joseph’s violence. The Shmuley tapes and the Glenda tapes make me want to cry.
 
I really really really hate rabbi Shmuck, but it is a good thing that what Michael said is out for historians years to come.

Joe's treatment towards Michael explains a lot, why MJ did this and that and why he behaved the way he did.
 
Greasing up kids and stripping them. hiting them with cords and socks full of sands. now a days would get u 15 years and prob labled a sadistic pervert.

we know the family will go to any level to portray themselves as the normal ones. and to hate on mj by downplaying abuse or by calling him a D.A to cover up what they are really like.
 
Even hearing from Michael himself how much he suffered and endured, I don't get how some of his fans can defend defend and/agreeing with Joe an KJ's "parenting" methods. We know he portrayed his mother as a saint but she neglected him as well by putting his well being over money and not even trying to defend her children from those horrific beatings. She defended herself when Joe tried to beat her, why didn't KJ defend the children or at least called the police to stop that sadist?
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
Even hearing from Michael himself how much he suffered and endured, I don't get how some of his fans can defend defend and/agreeing with Joe an KJ's "parenting" methods. We know he portrayed his mother as a saint but she neglected him as well by putting his well being over money and not even trying to defend her children from those horrific beatings. She defended herself when Joe tried to beat her, why didn't KJ defend the children or at least called the police to stop that sadist?
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Katherine's own book gives you the answer to your question.

She didn't think Joe was beating to too long or too hard, and when she thought Joe went too far, she stepped in.
Maybe she didn't see how wrong it was as she herself was beating them too (its in her own book) and she wanted to get out of Gary as much as Joe, and kids were the means to do so. It didn't matter much if they suffered "a bit" along the way. In her book she said that she was worried that if J5 doesn't get with Motown soon enough, MJ grows out of his cuteness and they get stuck in Gary.

She wrote that Joe hit her, and she hit him back with frying pan, and that was last time Joe hit her, but she didn't mind years of abuse from Joe towards kids? That goes over my head!

She even took Randy and Janet (to show kids how its done) with her when she confronted one of Joe's mistress and she got violent.
Again, she was being hurt and so she attacked towards person who cause her pain, but yet again when her kids were attacked, as long as it wasn't too hard or too long she was ok with it.
 
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^Then her order of priorities have been quite twisted IMO. For both Joe and Katherine have been more important the money than the well being of their children or their grandchildren, most of them have used PPB o make money off them. They didn't care to know how much Michael suffered due to the abusive environment him and his siblings lived in. I thought Joe was the only one who was violent towards them, Michael never mentioned his mother was abusive as well, I don't think it was at Joe's level though. No wonder why KJ agreed with Jermaine his children needed "discipline" when Margaret complained with her. I know many parents have recurred on beatings when they think their children misbehave, I'm personally against it (I still hold a grudge against my mother for it) but beating them brutally for missing dance dance steps, singing notes or not signing contracts is savage and make the abuse even lower.
 
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I don't get how he elevated her to sainthood if she's greedy, manipulative and selfish. She defended herself when Joe hit her and when he cheated on her but allowed her children enduring years of physical, psychological abuse and exploitation to assure and enjoy a life of commodities; that's disgusting! Michael said they complained often why she didn't leave him and file for divorce, I won't get that either. Probably deep inside he accepted her flaws but never in public. I don't remember if in the Glenda tapes he complained about her, I don't remember.
 
Bubs;4027953 said:
Katherine's own book gives you the answer to your question.

She didn't think Joe was beating to too long or too hard, and when she thought Joe went too far, she stepped in.
Maybe she didn't see how wrong it was as she herself was beating them too (its in her own book) and she wanted to get out of Gary as much as Joe, and kids were the means to do so. It didn't matter much if they suffered "a bit" along the way. In her book she said that she was worried that if J5 doesn't get with Motown soon enough, MJ grows out of his cuteness and they get stuck in Gary.

She wrote that Joe hit her, and she hit him back with frying pan, and that was last time Joe hit her, but she didn't mind years of abuse from Joe towards kids? That goes over my head!

She even took Randy and Janet (to show kids how its done) with her when she confronted one of Joe's mistress and she got violent.
Again, she was being hurt and so she attacked towards person who cause her pain, but yet again when her kids were attacked, as long as it wasn't too hard or too long she was ok with it.
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Right! Katherine took her two youngest children (Janet & Randy) with her when she beat down Joe’s “personal assistant” :busted: for cheating on her but she portrays herself as this super holy saint. What a two-faced hypocrite she is and she’s so good at manipulation. In my opinion Katherine is way more of a monster than Joseph because she knows how to brutalize and convince everyone she’s this docile, sweet, gentle angel. She sure did a job on Michael physiologically. Joe is stupid and can't hide his true motives in public but KJ is a A class sociopath.
 
Victory22;4028067 said:
Right! Katherine took her two youngest children (Janet & Randy) with her when she beat down Joe’s “personal assistant” :busted: for cheating on her but she portrays herself as this super holy saint. What a two-faced hypocrite she is and she’s so good at manipulation. In my opinion Katherine is way more of a monster than Joseph because she knows how to brutalize and convince everyone she’s this docile, sweet, gentle angel. She sure did a job on Michael physiologically. Joe is stupid and can't hide his true motives in public but KJ is a A class sociopath.
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I am honestly hurt you would say that about her, don't you think she was wrong for doing so? Everyone has a lapse in judgement. Like you would not beat someone up, if you were as hurt as she was? It is disgusting that you call her a sociopath. Just because she did something wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, and you need to learn how to forgive. Obviously you can't forgive her just because she didn't treat her kids the best. She's not Jesus, and you are treating her like she is a horrid human being, she is HUMAN so knock it off.
 
^Both KJ and Joe are horrible people because they have live off their children (nowadays grandchildren) and exploited them, well, they've just done it off Michael and the others while they were in the spotlight. As we've said before, they raised a bunch of slackers, money whores who made Michael's life difficult in his darkest moments, some of them continue to do it to his children. Katherine and Joe are horrible people because they continue repeating their same mistakes on 3 minor orphans carring more to make money off them than their well being. Katherine preferred to make money off her son's murder than going after his murderer. If you don't think they're horrible, you've lived cheated.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
^Both KJ and Joe are horrible people because they have live off their children (nowadays grandchildren) and exploited them, well, they've just done it off Michael and the others while they were in the spotlight. As we've said before, they raised a bunch of slackers, money whores who made Michael's life difficult in his darkest moments, some of them continue to do it to his children. Katherine and Joe are horrible people because they continue repeating their same mistakes on 3 minor orphans carring more to make money off them than their well being. Katherine preferred to make money off her son's murder than going after his murderer. If you don't think they're horrible, you've lived cheated.
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I don't think they are horrible, I just think they have let the money go to their head. I can't say they are horrible because I don't know them personally. So don't tell how I've lived, because you don't know my childhood. So step down.
 
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