I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

PurpleThriller

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2021
Messages
585
Points
63
hiccups 🤣 !
Yeah, that is noticeable. I don't know what autotune does to a voice, but maybe a combination of these two makes it 'dont hear Michael in it'. Maybe his heart was not in it.
yup lol haha
 

filmandmusic

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
2,896
Points
113
I have read a lot of professional reviews on History and forward that Michael’s voice had gone. I don’t really agree with it but it is definitely a thing with professionals that his vocals had diminished since Bad. I personally always attributed it to a change in style, it was a professional choice to sing songs the way he did. I don’t believe there were vocal limitation to his post bad album work.
That said I also prefer the old vocal style. It was innocent, vibrant and full of life. I also noticed the same enthusiasm returned later on on songs like best of joy and the way you love me. So those songs are absolute favorites of mine too. I honestly think he was working on a fantastic come back but alas…
 

filmandmusic

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
2,896
Points
113
@Hiker

yeah that vibe it got old real fast for me but Michael kind of stayed in that mindset for a long time and I completely understand where it comes from obviously but it got tiring and uninspiring to me. He seemed to have shaken it off post the 2005 trial imo and I think he probably had one unbelievably good album in him but faith intervened.
My favorite songs on HIStory are when he actually sings instead of growls and spits his way through the lyrics. Stuff like Little Susie, Childhood, Smile, Stranger in moscow that is beautiful and inspiring to me. That is when the magic shines through and those are often songs he composed all by himself.
 

Dorian

Smooth Criminal
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,108
Points
113
I may be in minority, but I like the Vince rough voice best as well as the more modern style.

This said, Vince has a lot of fillers.
 

ChanceToDance

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2022
Messages
1,768
Points
113
Michael barely wrote/composed/produced or arranged anything on that album.
He wrote just 2 songs,out of the entire album(that has 16 songs).
And he also abandoned all his signature hiccups+99% of his vocals for Invincible were autotuned(something he has never used before)
The album has some gold(Butterflies,Break of Dawn) ,but they are like exceptions.
While Invincible is a good album,it is not up to Michael's standards (i think)
I respect your opinion tho
I agree with everything, a lot of the songs are fillers and would've fit more if they were released on TUC, but there are still plenty of gems on the album like you said (Break of Dawn, Heartbreaker and Unbreakable being my top 3 favorites).

My liking for the album comes mainly from the outtakes TBH, A Place With No Name, Escape, The Way You Love Me and Hollywood Tonight are all really good songs and they would've made Invincible a better album if they were included.
 

Nite Line

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,660
Points
113
What I see when I look at the leotard is a beautiful dance costume. I mean, it's based on a fencing costume but for Michael's purposes, it's a dance costume. It's very theatrical. I love everything about it. It enhances his physique, his movements, plus it has a beauty and a life of its own. For me, it does everything required of it.
I have seen pictures of Michael wearing the black leotard and that looks really nice. But the gold leotard looked not really good, in my opinion.
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
I have seen pictures of Michael wearing the black leotard and that looks really nice. But the gold leotard looked not really good, in my opinion.
Fair enough. Lots of people really dislike the gold leotard. I love it. What I don't love is the short pants in the Dangerous outfit. I know Michael had his theory that the shorter trousers made it easy for people to see the white socks which in turn made it easy for his footwork to be seen. I'm not convinced that worked as well as he thought it did. The trouser length he had for Bad seems perfectly adequate for those purposes and looks loads better, imo. I love the iridescent Dangerous jacket and the gold leotard but those short pants? I love you, Michael, but just no.

Black leotard? Do you mean the black top he wore for the first BWT 1987 show? I adore that top. I do understand why he only wore it once but, omg, I absolutely love it. He looks amazing in it.

Or did you mean the black fencing leotard from that photo session? Love that, as well.
 

ChanceToDance

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2022
Messages
1,768
Points
113
In my opinion, Speechless & Butterflies are some of MIchael's greatest ever vocal performances, so I disagree entirely that Michael's voice had gone by Invincible.
I don't think using Butterflies is a good example, it's the song where the autotune is the most apparent, his voice even sound too robotic at parts.
 

Nite Line

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,660
Points
113
Fair enough. Lots of people really dislike the gold leotard. I love it. What I don't love is the short pants in the Dangerous outfit. I know Michael had his theory that the shorter trousers made it easy for people to see the white socks which in turn made it easy for his footwork to be seen. I'm not convinced that worked as well as he thought it did. The trouser length he had for Bad seems perfectly adequate for those purposes and looks loads better, imo. I love the iridescent Dangerous jacket and the gold leotard but those short pants? I love you, Michael, but just no.



Or did you mean the black fencing leotard from that photo session? Love that, as well.
I meant the black leotard from the photo session.
 

Nite Line

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,660
Points
113
I don't think using Butterflies is a good example, it's the song where the autotune is the most apparent, his voice even sound too robotic at parts.
Regardless of the autotune, Michael sounds heavenly during Butterflies, especially during the second verse, in my opinion.
 

Hiker

MJJC Staff
Staff member
Joined
Feb 5, 2022
Donations
$20.00
Messages
2,818
Points
113
Country
Switzerland
I don't think using Butterflies is a good example, it's the song where the autotune is the most apparent, his voice even sound too robotic at parts.
Ah so is that what it was autotune. His voice sounded off to me I'm Butterflies, like he was singing beyond his normal range. But maybe it was all the technology.
 

ChanceToDance

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2022
Messages
1,768
Points
113
Regardless of the autotune, Michael sounds heavenly during Butterflies, especially during the second verse, in my opinion.
It's a good song, but if it's to show that he still had a good singing voice I'd use We've Had Enough or Another Day, his voice sounds strong on these songs.
I wasn’t aware of autotune. Feels like cheating to me
A lot of the album is autotuned, it's not Will.i.am levels of autotune but it's pretty discreet.
 
Last edited:

Nite Line

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,660
Points
113
I wasn’t aware of autotune. Feels like cheating to me
It's not cheating. By the time Invincible came out, autotune was used by artists. If Michael was making music today, he too would be using a lot of autotune which is a standard music industry practice nowadays.
 

filmandmusic

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
2,896
Points
113
It's not cheating. By the time Invincible came out, autotune was used by artists. If Michael was making music today, he too would be using a lot of autotune which is a standard music industry practice nowadays.
Yes i’m aware of that but not Michael using it.
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
- I think his best tours were all done with his brothers and not solo
Resistance is futile. If ever I am reincarnated into an alternative universe and given the choice of seeing Michael live on BWT vs. Triumph I'm taking Triumph.

- Michael's solo stuff from Motown deserves more recognition
This is my current fave fantasy.
 

Hiker

MJJC Staff
Staff member
Joined
Feb 5, 2022
Donations
$20.00
Messages
2,818
Points
113
Country
Switzerland
Resistance is futile. If ever I am reincarnated into an alternative universe and given the choice of seeing Michael live on BWT vs. Triumph I'm taking Triumph.
😂 It would be Dangerous and then HIStory for me, no questions asked! I would put ear plugs if you force me to and just watch him dance :) And I don't know which of these statements belong to this thread! We are so divided on this topic!! :eek:
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
😂 It would be Dangerous and then HIStory for me, no questions asked! I would put ear plugs if you force me to and just watch him dance :)
For several weeks I've been so in love with BWT 1987 (and I still am, of course) I would have expected *that* to be my choice. Easy peasy! I'm almost a bit shocked to find I'm going for Triumph. I was always a bit unenthusiastic about the brothers and loved the fact that Michael did break away from them. But now I've actually watched the shows - I've even started watching Victory which I thought I would never do - I just see more and more stuff in there that I love.
And I don't know which of these statements belong to this thread! We are so divided on this topic!! :eek:
IKR! We are so divided. I think we are standing on opposite sides of the Grand Canyon, gazing at each other in complete confusion. :D

I can see your point of view on this. I really can. But watching these early shows, I'm just finding more and more layers of stuff that I love and can relate to. The Jacksons are not really my type of band and, of course, I would not be interested in them at all if Michael wasn't there. It is ALL about him, no question. But it's all about him in the context of that group and those shows and those venues. I've just fallen in love.

I suppose the one obvious drawback to these Jacksons shows is that, although Michael is the lead singer, the camera isn't on him exclusively whereas when it's his own shows you get endless camera shots of him. I'd say that's one thing I do struggle with.
 

filmandmusic

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
2,896
Points
113
I always preferred the smaller scale choreo’s in the Jacksons concerts. We got usually Michael dancing with Marlon and Jackie. Jermaine on bass, Tito on guitar and Randy as the percussionst. I think it was perfect.
Choreo on tracks like “you were made especially for me, get it together, forever came today or working day and night“ are just fun. There was chemistry and I loved them on backing vocals too.

Why not bring torture, state of shock or the girl is mine live though on the victory tour? Jermaine was a capable lead singer, it could have worked.
Michael totally bringing “ tell me i’m not dreaming” alive is something else though, what a vocalist!

You know what I regret? MJ not performing on live aid! Mick Jagger did state of shock with Tina Turner in absence of MJ. Such a shame.
 
Last edited:

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
I always preferred the smaller scale choreo’s in the Jacksons concerts.
This is what I mean about finding all these lovely unexpected layers to the shows. And it's so weird cos I would never have expected to be OK with dividing my attention between Michael and anyone else. He's the one I want to watch. The only one. But the brothers are doing good stuff, too. Not as good as Michael, not even close, imo. But I'm flipping the video back and back and back to see them just as much as I'm doing it for Michael.

And, yeah, the smaller scale for the dancing works really well. Not just the dancing but the way they use the space and move around and how they move around each other and relate to each other, physically. I can't get enough of it, atm. It just feels so textured and detailed and, I dunno, like a box of treasures.

We got usually Michael dancing with Marlon and Jackie. Jermaine on bass, Tito on guitar and Randy as the percussionst. I think it was perfect.
It really is. More than I had ever realised. Cos I only ever saw them on TOTP which doesn't give you much of an idea of the complexity of what's going on within the group.

Choreo on tracks like “you were made especially for me, get it together, forever came today or working day and night“ are just fun. There was chemistry and I loved them on backing vocals too.
I'm actually not keen on the brothers on backing vocals. I'm really picky when it comes to backing vocals and I don't think they are all that. I don't think they give Michael the quality that he needs or deserves. They are not crap, they all can sing. But I don't think their backing vocals work is especially good. It's decent. That's all I would say. But, their performances taken as a whole, no argument. They just work so well as a unit which I know is not a very clever thing to say. They worked together for so many years so it's hardly surprising. But, again, it's *seeing* it rather than just hearing about it. It's an awesome thing to behold.

Why not bring torture, state of shock or the girl is mine live though on the victory tour? Jermaine was a capable lead singer, it could have worked.
I don't think I know Torture. I'll need to check that out.

Michael totally bringing “ tell me i’m not dreaming” alive is something else though, what a vocalist!
Don't think I know this song, either. I need to check out Victory NY 84 then I'm gonna follow up all this stuff you've just mentioned. All of this:

"Choreo on tracks like “you were made especially for me, get it together, forever came today or working day and night“ are just fun."

I have to check all of this stuff out. I need to KNOW. :D
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
Why not bring torture
Just checked my compilation CD, got Torture, will check it out later.

Michael totally bringing “ tell me i’m not dreaming” alive is something else though, what a vocalist!
Just watched this. It's a Jermaine song?? Jeez, who would have known? Well, not me, that's for sure. :D That's a damn good song. It's awesome, actually. It rocks!!

I want that song!
 

filmandmusic

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
2,896
Points
113
Just checked my compilation CD, got Torture, will check it out later.


Just watched this. It's a Jermaine song?? Jeez, who would have known? Well, not me, that's for sure. :D That's a damn good song. It's awesome, actually. It rocks!!

I want that song!
Not sure you will like Torture it’s an epic disco hard rock ish track but it features the same qualities as tell me i’m not dreaming. This means absolutely great vocals by Michael in duet with Jermaine. I reckon both songs are from the same recording session but that’s just speculation. I swear on album his vocals around 78 to 85 are gorgeous.
It’s pretty weird they didn’t pick this as a live track as it was a decent hit, the other track wasn’t even a single (though it did get airplay). They must have rehearsed it though, how could they not?

Yes it is on a Jermaine solo albumit is the best Jermaine/Michael collaboration imo. It is great on the Victory tour especially when MJ comes in and in the end when both Jermaine and Michael go full on in ad libs.

As for the choreos on the other tracks you will find performances on youtube, it is really intense synchronic dancing (and fully live in concert, not in tv shows) I love it. There is not a second when they’re not moving, they had some stamina!
 
Last edited:

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
Not sure you will like Torture
It's good. The video is ... well, eat your heart out, Duran Duran, lol.

There is not a second when they’re not moving, they had some stamina!
This is one of the things I'm loving about these Jacksons shows. You're right, they never stop. It looks great. I've never been keen on Marlon's voice but the man has got some moves on him.

I loved them on backing vocals too.
'Tell me I'm not dreaming' - I think the backing vocals on this are not good. They almost ruin the song, imo. But not quite, thank god.

I don't think I will ever have the emotional connection with these songs that I have with Michael's 90's stuff. But I'm *loving* these new discoveries. New to me, lol. :D
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
I always preferred the smaller scale choreo’s in the Jacksons concerts. We got usually Michael dancing with Marlon and Jackie. Jermaine on bass, Tito on guitar and Randy as the percussionst. I think it was perfect.
It's been a week or so now but I am still *deeply* immersed in all of this. The smaller scale choreography, as you say, is awesome. Yes, it's smaller scale and yet, omg, the detail, the intricacy, the ingenuity. Love it.

Choreo on tracks like “you were made especially for me, get it together, forever came today or working day and night“ are just fun.
I'm still having such a blast with all of these. And more! They seemed to go on the Carol Burnett Show loads. We got Bob Hope and Andy Williams in the UK but not the Carol Burnett Show so all this is new to me.

There was chemistry and I loved them on backing vocals too.
I love the chemistry. I get that the family dynamics are tricky, to put it mildly, but the chemistry is undeniable.
 

staywild23

Premium Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2022
Messages
3,665
Points
113
Country
United-States
Resistance is futile. If ever I am reincarnated into an alternative universe and given the choice of seeing Michael live on BWT vs. Triumph I'm taking Triumph.

Bahhhh you just broke my heart!!

In an alternative reality where anything was possible, absolutely nothing would stop me from going to the Bad tour. I'd sell my entire soul and regret nothing lol.
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
Resistance is futile. If ever I am reincarnated into an alternative universe and given the choice of seeing Michael live on BWT vs. Triumph I'm taking Triumph.
Bahhhh you just broke my heart!!

In an alternative reality where anything was possible, absolutely nothing would stop me from going to the Bad tour. I'd sell my entire soul and regret nothing lol.
I wrote that a week ago. Now? Would it be Triumph or would it be Victory?

This is the crazy world of Michael. Where Osaka and Brisbane and Tokyo (black top) end up being shoved down the chart. How can that be? Dunno, it just is.

At the moment I'm still thinking Triumph but that could change. Victory could be, er, the victor! :D

I'll say it again. I'm glad Michael broke away from the family. I'm sure it was the right thing for him. But, gotta say, seeing him with the brothers. God, it's awesome. It just works. Makes so much sense. As a unit they are ... I don't even know how to explain it. They were never (J5 or Jacksons) one of my fave bands or one of my most important bands. But they have something. And I don't just mean Michael. Something else. When they are all together they just ... no, can't do it, can't explain it. But I get a connection that, so far, I don't get from BWT 1987.
 

staywild23

Premium Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2022
Messages
3,665
Points
113
Country
United-States
I'll say it again. I'm glad Michael broke away from the family. I'm sure it was the right thing for him. But, gotta say, seeing him with the brothers. God, it's awesome. It just works. Makes so much sense. As a unit they are ... I don't even know how to explain it. They were never (J5 or Jacksons) one of my fave bands or one of my most important bands. But they have something. And I don't just mean Michael. Something else. When they are all together they just ... no, can't do it, can't explain it. But I get a connection that, so far, I don't get from BWT 1987.

I had to settle for the "sad" react when what I wanted was something that would demonstrate my utter devastation of having lost you to the earlier tours! :ROFLMAO: I thought we were in on this together! I feel abandoned and am not sure how I will recover!

It's ok...I get it... I will just sell my soul alone. It's fine. If I'm alone I'll have a better chance of sneaking back stage and making Michael fall in love with me so, I can live with that ☺️
 

zinniabooklover

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2022
Messages
10,519
Points
113
I had to settle for the "sad" react when what I wanted was something that would demonstrate my utter devastation of having lost you to the earlier tours! :ROFLMAO: I thought we were in on this together! I feel abandoned and am not sure how I will recover!

It's ok...I get it... I will just sell my soul alone. It's fine. If I'm alone I'll have a better chance of sneaking back stage and making Michael fall in love with me so, I can live with that ☺️
No, I totally get it. I think your response is entirely appropriate. In Osaka BWT 1987 Michael tucks his hair behind his ears and blinks. Now, we're not on Manhood so I'll say no more about that. But, still, how can that be shoved aside by all this earlier stuff? Makes no sense. I can only tell it like it is. I don't understand it but have to acknowledge it. Maybe it will pass (sorry, who's Marlon?).

But I don't think so.
 

staywild23

Premium Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2022
Messages
3,665
Points
113
Country
United-States
No, I totally get it. I think your response is entirely appropriate. In Osaka BWT 1987 Michael tucks his hair behind his ears and blinks. Now, we're not on Manhood so I'll say no more about that. But, still, how can that be shoved aside by all this earlier stuff? Makes no sense. I can only tell it like it is. I don't understand it but have to acknowledge it
Lol I get that. I would also absolutely love to see any of those tours too, btw. They would be my second pick after Bad. For me it would probably go Bad, then Victory. Then maybe a tie between Triumph and Dangerous. But Bad is pretty much always going to win, for me.

Either way, I really do understand and it's fine lol. I will always appreciate that if nothing else you understand why I would sacrifice my entire being to see Michael during Bad (well...maybe not to that degree, but you know what I"m saying).

Maybe it will pass (sorry, who's Marlon?).
NO ONE ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

Jk. He's fine lol.
 
Top