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I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

I think that "Michael" is miles better than "Thriller" or any other MJ-Album.

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ShipOfFools said:
I realize this is a controversial post, but I really, really hate all the plastic surgery that Michael did on his face.

I know, it was his choice, but it's a clear sign of illness. Nobody would make themselves look like that without needing some sort of therapy, especially when Michael was always a good looking guy.

This is not debating Michael's beautiful personality or his talent. But he needed help and someone to tell him no.

I'm probably going to get my head bitten off for this post.
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I'm 100% with you as far as him needing some type of help or therapy. I think this is yet another one of those topics within the community that is a bit taboo with him. There are those who believe he was "beautiful" his entire life which is fine, but there are some that just do not like it and sometimes its as if that person is treated as completely wrong and not a "real fan". I personally think even controversial conversations can be healthy if kept in good taste.

I'm a psychology graduate and in recent years I've looked at a lot of what Michael was going through especially the last decade or so and it all certainly took its toll on him. I think his appearance was always a psychological battle for him and I too wish there was someone that could just convince him to stop at some point. Heck, his own mother says that. We all know he struggled most of his life with his look which began when he was a teenager, so why its impossible to believe he needed 'help' is kind of a head scratch-er to me. Oh and "needing help" or "someone to talk to" isn't something that should be looked at as a bad thing. I think we can at least all agree that he sure could have used that ONE friend that could truly tell him "no".
 
Scorpio said:
I'm 100% with you as far as him needing some type of help or therapy. I think this is yet another one of those topics within the community that is a bit taboo with him. There are those who believe he was "beautiful" his entire life which is fine, but there are some that just do not like it and sometimes its as if that person is treated as completely wrong and not a "real fan". I personally think even controversial conversations can be healthy if kept in good taste.

I'm a psychology graduate and in recent years I've looked at a lot of what Michael was going through especially the last decade or so and it all certainly took its toll on him. I think his appearance was always a psychological battle for him and I too wish there was someone that could just convince him to stop at some point. Heck, his own mother says that. We all know he struggled most of his life with his look which began when he was a teenager, so why its impossible to believe he needed 'help' is kind of a head scratch-er to me. Oh and "needing help" or "someone to talk to" isn't something that should be looked at as a bad thing. I think we can at least all agree that he sure could have used that ONE friend that could truly tell him "no".
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I agree that this tends to be a taboo subject among Michael's fans, and I completely understand why. I have a family member who's a licensed psychologist, and even though I have taken psychology courses in college, I am not in the position to diagnose him with anything, if at all. Even my family member says that she is not in that position.

What bothers me, more than the outward beauty aspect (because I don't really look at the beauty of music stars when I appreciate their music), was that it contributed to some health issues for Michael. I don't know everything about what in particular in health issues, so I don't know how significant it was. But it's troubling that Michael had no real friends around him to help him with his image issues.

I also have to say that a lot of celebrities face body image issues. Not just Michael Jackson. It's an ongoing problem in Hollywood, and has contributed to a lot of eating disorders among celebrities.
 
I completely agree with you guys above about this. Yes, it is a 'touchy' subject with fans (...personally, I don't mind discussing it as long as it's not mean-sprited). I also wonder why none of Michael's associates even said 'Whoa, Mike, wanna hold it back a bit with the surgeries now?' - or maybe they did and he didn't listen. We just don't know. The poor guy clearly had image problems his whole life (we all know that) but sometimes it's interesting to wonder about what he thought about himself as he got older. For example, if he saw old videos and pictures of himself (e.g Beat It) when he was in his 40s.
He looked completely unrecognisable in 2009, compared to this;
sHGUEfX.jpg

Personally, I (and I assume many other fans) think that Michael looked absolutely gorgeous when he was younger. It's just a shame he never saw how lovely he really was.
 
I've personally always liked talking about 'taboo' topics.. I find it a great way to think outside the box a bit and get out of comfort zones! I often leave them alone though just for the thought of how others here would respond/react.. Of course I have thoughts/opinions about some of Michaels choices. I'm a fan so how could I not? no one spends more time analyzing Michael than us fan!
 
ShipOfFools said:
I realize this is a controversial post, but I really, really hate all the plastic surgery that Michael did on his face.

I know, it was his choice, but it's a clear sign of illness. Nobody would make themselves look like that without needing some sort of therapy, especially when Michael was always a good looking guy.

This is not debating Michael's beautiful personality or his talent. But he needed help and someone to tell him no.

I'm probably going to get my head bitten off for this post.
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I agree that Michael had an illness that caused this. But it's discoid lupus, not a mental illness, like body dysmorphic order. I've known people who lived and died of lupus-and I myself, have a light form of it that goes after organs inside my body. His kind goes after things it perceives as the "enemy", like his scars from his original rhinoplasties. I've seen pictures on Google of some pretty horrific things discoid lupus can do to you.

I remember watching Michael on the Walt Disney 25 special and he looked so different than the last time I saw him on the Variety Shows. I credited his darling haircut, but guess it was the nose job. But he looked just like an adult version of the little boy on the Ed Sullivan Show. His huge eyes popped. Then when he did Motown 25 he looked different again. And again, I credited that gorgeous curled hair and the eye makeup. But guess that was another rhinoplasty-BUT he went from that gangly, awkward teenager to absolutely beautiful, sexy and people were falling over at the sight of him.

I think by BAD he was very happy about the way he looked-he was absolutely the most gorgeous thing I'd ever seen in my life. Do I think he would intentionally destroy that or disfigure that? No.

You can tell by Dangerous and HIStory that he was disfigured and I have absolutely no doubt that the lupus came back with a vengeance with the Chandler allegations. All subsequent operations were to make himself look more normal. They obviously all didn't go well-I cried when I saw him at the 2001 Anniversary show, because he couldn't even move his lip. However, I just loved him more for it. Can't imagine having a disfiguring disease like this, and being the most famous/photographed man on the planet. This is from a doctor who was present at the strip search. I totally believe him.


I'll add that I was ashamed of his mother when she said his nose looked like a toothpick. I have no doubt that Michael did not discuss his medical issues with his mother or his family-but if I were his mother, I would have researched the disease.
 
I just want to say that while Michael did change a lot physically over the years.. I see some of that being without intent..

What I mean by that is ballooning for example pulls the skin, this would naturally over time pull the forehead skin back which would effect the upper portion of his face... I have other things like that that I see/think but idk how it would be taken.
 
barbee0715 said:
I agree that Michael had an illness that caused this. But it's discoid lupus, not a mental illness, like body dysmorphic order. I've known people who lived and died of lupus-and I myself, have a light form of it that goes after organs inside my body. His kind goes after things it perceives as the "enemy", like his scars from his original rhinoplasties. I've seen pictures on Google of some pretty horrific things discoid lupus can do to you.

I remember watching Michael on the Walt Disney 25 special and he looked so different than the last time I saw him on the Variety Shows. I credited his darling haircut, but guess it was the nose job. But he looked just like an adult version of the little boy on the Ed Sullivan Show. His huge eyes popped. Then when he did Motown 25 he looked different again. And again, I credited that gorgeous curled hair and the eye makeup. But guess that was another rhinoplasty-BUT he went from that gangly, awkward teenager to absolutely beautiful, sexy and people were falling over at the sight of him.

I think by BAD he was very happy about the way he looked-he was absolutely the most gorgeous thing I'd ever seen in my life. Do I think he would intentionally destroy that or disfigure that? No.

You can tell by Dangerous and HIStory that he was disfigured and I have absolutely no doubt that the lupus came back with a vengeance with the Chandler allegations. All subsequent operations were to make himself look more normal. They obviously all didn't go well-I cried when I saw him at the 2001 Anniversary show, because he couldn't even move his lip. However, I just loved him more for it. Can't imagine having a disfiguring disease like this, and being the most famous/photographed man on the planet. This is from a doctor who was present at the strip search. I totally believe him.


I'll add that I was ashamed of his mother when she said his nose looked like a toothpick. I have no doubt that Michael did not discuss his medical issues with his mother or his family-but if I were his mother, I would have researched the disease.
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I cannot add any more to this. I completely agree with every word. Michael didn't have an "image problem", he had a disease.

Michael's struggles and the way he dealt with them....with such dignity, poise and grace just makes me love him and appreciate him all the more. In my mind, he is the strongest person that I know...well...that I don't know.....but you guys know what I mean.
 
Lupus also makes some changes to your face as from the meds (a type of steroid) you take for lupus you get something called a moon face (the face swells to give a moon like appearance), which alone makes the face look totally different, the shape of his face varied from angular to square. It made him look like he had lots of plastic surgery, but it was because of the moon face. Here's some more info about it: https://michaeljacksonshumannature.wordpress.com/tag/prednisone/

 
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(Let me just say that, my goal with posting this is not to proove that he had vitiligo, it's just to show the comparisons)
And on top of that, the color of the skin alone can make a face looks completely different. More info here https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Michael-Jacksons-skin-turn-white
Lets just say he had a ton of surgery, but even then, those other people they are comparing on that site, looks totally different from when their skin was darker and they had no surgery?


 
Michaels Lover said:
Lupus also makes some changes to your face as from the meds (a type of steroid) you take for lupus you get something called a moon face (the face swells to give a moon like appearance), which alone makes the face look totally different, the shape of his face varied from angular to square. It made him look like he had lots of plastic surgery, but it was because of the moon face. Here's some more info about it: https://michaeljacksonshumannature.wordpress.com/tag/prednisone/
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I want to thank you for posting this because I will 'put my hand up' and say that I had no idea that was why his face shape changed so drastically. I always thought that when he had the chin cleft implanted, he had his entire jaw sculpted...and then as he got older and his cheekbones became more pronounced, I thought that was either due to weight loss or another type of surgery.
When I see pictures of Michael from the Thriller era with the lupus rash on his cheeks, I always thought he was just blushing. I had no idea it was caused by lupus.

I still do think he had an image problem though, even with all of these medical conditions. After all, if he didn't have an 'image problem'; why would he have so many nose jobs?
 
What's come out in testimony about Michael is his fear of needles.

"In the case of high-level entertainers, the result may not be what the average person would want. But remember, these are performers who want to create a certain image for a special reason." - Steven Hoefflin, the favourite plastic surgeon of Hollywood celebrities

Whenever Michael came out with a new project, he did create a certain image. This was his special reason and it was every few year's, for the most part. In which he could handle needle's from his new image for his new project.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4722597/The-man-who-made-Michael-Jackson.html
 
Do we have any proof MJ had lupus other than the note from Klein? I keep seeing people say this yet I'm pretty sure it didn't come up in the autopsy at all and I don't find Klein a reliable source at all.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
Do we have any proof MJ had lupus other than the note from Klein? I keep seeing people say this yet I'm pretty sure it didn't come up in the autopsy at all and I don't find Klein a reliable source at all.
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Well, yes, Klein confirmed it in a press conference after the Pepsi burn when some of Michael's medical records got leaked. Then Michael, himself, confirmed it to Oprah in the 93 interview-but said it was currently in remission. Then he traveled with Dr. Metzger during HIStory and saw him regularly and he's a lupus specialist.
I don't know if lupus itself would show up in an autopsy-the damage lupus causes would-for instance, the lung issues were most likely from lupus. Pleurisy (back when Michael was a young man and suddenly couldn't breathe at Jermaine's house) is common with people with lupus.
 
He didn't say that on the Oprah interview, must've been somewhere else. Personally, I've never heard him say it
 
I am too busy and somewhat lazy to go back to the autopsy on what it said about Lupas (if anything).. Michael never spoke about having Lupas publicly and if there are any docs we've seen that would say it - it would be the autopsy. Kleins words dont carry much weight nor does the fact Michael never speaking about it. I mean Michael dealt with vitiligo for years (his skin in the public was totally white) before he spoke about it.. and that was after he was asked by Oprah and it was something visible that is harder to ignore. He never liked talking about his medical history!
 
SmoothGangsta;4223080 said:
Do we have any proof MJ had lupus other than the note from Klein? I keep seeing people say this yet I'm pretty sure it didn't come up in the autopsy at all and I don't find Klein a reliable source at all.
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barbee0715;4223083 said:
Well, yes, Klein confirmed it in a press conference after the Pepsi burn when some of Michael's medical records got leaked. Then Michael, himself, confirmed it to Oprah in the 93 interview-but said it was currently in remission. Then he traveled with Dr. Metzger during HIStory and saw him regularly and he's a lupus specialist.
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Thank you.



This is an excerpt from a review article published in the Journal of Forensic Research, in 2011. The article is a summary, insights and analysis of the findings in MJ's autopsy report, but also includes much more about the death scene, the forensic investigation, the prosecution and defense scenarios at trial and so forth.

The Michael Jackson Autopsy: Insights Provided by a Forensic Anesthesiologist
Richard J. Levy*

The entire article is well worth reading. Richard levy's credentials are provided and there are source/reference links included, throughout.

This is the section devoted in part to lupus.

A Serious Medical Diagnosis

The combination of vitiligo, arthritis, and lung inflammation raises the concern for an autoimmune disease. In fact, in 1986, Michael Jackson was diagnosed with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE). SLE is a serious and potentially life threatening disease that can occur at any age . It affects women more commonly than men and African Americans and Asians more commonly than other races. Symptoms vary widely and often flare or go into remission frequently. Common symptoms include chest pain, fatigue, fever, hair loss, skin rash, swollen lymph nodes, sensitivity to sunlight, and mouth sores. Complications from SLE include thrombosis, hemolysis, pleural and pericardial effusions, stroke, and vasculitis. There is no cure for SLE and treatment usually consists of ant-inflammatory medications and steroids. Although Michael Jackson had received treatment for lupus in the past, he was not on any such therapy at the time of his death. His SLE was reportedly in remission, however, the pulmonary findings suggest that it had caused significant lung injury.

Although none of the medical findings in Michael Jackson’s autopsy contributed to his death, they certainly indicate that the singer suffered from both SLE and prostatic hyperplasia.


Link to article: https://www.omicsonline.org/the-mic...esthesiologist-2157-7145.1000138.php?aid=2172
 
All your posts about lupus are very interesting to me. I wasn't aware that he had lupus, and that lupus could have such effects on people. Thank you for all your articles, even if it's sad to learn he had this disease, it allows us to understand him better.
 
You know, it might not be on the Oprah interview, but I do remember seeing it like yesterday and that's the only interview I can remember around that time. I saw it live, so it's possible that they edited it for later viewings.

I remember them bringing up lupus, Michael staring straight ahead. Then she said it's in remission, he nodded and had a look like "next question."

The REASON I remember this is because my doctors had been and still are flirting with the idea of my having lupus-I've been diagnosed with all sorts of stuff because of the symptoms-chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, etc. I don't seem to have enough markers to have lupus. I also being put out that they said "in remission" like it was nothing. It formed my opinion on the stuff that Michael went through, and how brave and strong he was to face the world with that type of lupus. My admiration just went UP beyond what it already was.

If I died today, my autopsy would show rosacea, rheumatoid arthritis, glaucoma, and lung damage due to pleurisy-all that I got in my 20's-but it wouldn't show lupus. Yet, all of these are associated with it.
 
If he did have that disease, I'm sorry for bringing it up. One of my friends has it, and it's a terrible disease.

That just makes me even sadder for Michael. I wonder why he felt he had to keep this hidden? If that's why his appearance changed, I feel the public would have been more sympathetic to him if they knew it was because of a disease. Look at all the sympathy that Selena Gomez got for her kidney transplant, and more people know who Michael Jackson is than Selena.
 
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Metzger, a rheumatologist and internist who first treated Jackson in 1983 for discoid Lupus, said he admired his "buddy" for his generosity and "positive nature."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ial-final-witness-testifies-article-1.1461949

About Dr. Allan Metzger
Dr. Allan Metzger, MD, FACP, FACR is a Doctor primarily located in Los Angeles, CA, with another office in West Hollywood, CA. His specialties include Rheumatology and Internal Medicine. Dr. Metzger is affiliated with Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. Dr. Metzger has received 2 awards. He speaks English.

A rheumatologist is a physician who has received extensive training in diagnosing and treating rheumatic conditions. Rheumatic conditions involve the joints, soft tissues, autoimmune system, vascular system, and connective tissues.
Some of the conditions that rheumatologists treat are rheumatoid arthritis, ankylosing spondylitis, gout, sarcoidosis, vasculitis, and lupus. These are all conditions that involve a lot of pain and make mobility difficult. Rheumatologists use medications, such as analgesics, NSAIDs, steroids, DMARDs, infliximab, and adalimumab, as well as occupational therapy, in order to decrease pain and improve a patient's quality of life.

https://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Allan_Metzger.html
 
For me, I don't like his "message songs" such as Heal the world, Earth Song, We are the world (I do like the solo version though), Keep The Faith, The Lost Children, Childhood. I do however love Man In The Mirror.
I really don't like The girl is mine. On my itunes playlist and Spotify I insert "Say say say" in its place.
I also don't like "Just good friends" so I removed it from all my playlists.
As for "Heal the world" I removed that as well and replaced it with "Someone Put your hand out".
 
There are many, but to pick one, it will be about the title the King of Pop. I've read the origins and how this title battled the nickname ***** *****, but I just felt that by just labeling it Pop, Michael's versatility is boxed. In my case, I'm not a big pop-follower, but the longer I listened to his catalogue, the less pop he is in my ears. He's more eclectic...? :imbad
 
Honestly it kind of annoys me how some fans will look at a picture of Michael holding a guitar or sitting at a piano, and then they come to the conclusion that he was this extremely skilled multi-instrumentalist. Michael probably could play some basic things, but he wasn't at Eddie Van Halen level on guitar or Stevie Wonder level on the keyboards.
 
Speed Demon should have been replaced with Streetwalker for the Bad album IMO

I know nobody will agree lol but I'm being super honest
 
Hulkamaniac said:
Speed Demon should have been replaced with Streetwalker for the Bad album IMO

I know nobody will agree lol but I'm being super honest
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I don't know if Streetwalker was the replacement but Speed Demon is absolutely one of my least favourites from the album.
 
It was between streetwalker and another part of me if my memory serves me right..
 
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