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Is Why? w/3T Michael's song or 3T's?

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
The 90s stock was a lot healthier than the 2000s, I will admit. The Invincible ballads, while nice, can't help but feel. Nondefinitive. The best Invincible ballads sound like the 2000s, like the 21st century. Butterflies could be made today, so could Whatever Happens. Cry and You Are My Life do sound like 90s tunes, but not even as strong as Teddy and Toto's. Idk, it's funny.

And, is this an Invincible thread now that I've mentioned Invincible?
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I was afraid to mention Invincible again but since you dived in: 'Why' is a perfect example of the R&B sound that would fit that album much better yes :)
 
Prince Of Pop said:
Why was suppose to be on HIStory until 3T fell in love with it and it was put on their album. That's why Come Together ended up on HIStory instead.
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Really? I thought 'Come Together' was a remnant from the 'Decade'-concept..?
 
Victorious said:
I was afraid to mention Invincible again but since you dived in: 'Why' is a perfect example of the R&B sound that would fit that album much better yes :)
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Ehh. Invincible needed a whole new sound that wasn't even a thing yet. It came at an awkward time at the end of the century, but before the new one really started to kick into high gear. So I guess you could say that's a flaw.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
He only did that if he didn't have the verses though. He wrote this one so maybe it's just sung top to bottom.
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I believe you, but do you have examples of that? I just find the idea of him not doing some sort of scratch demo hard to imagine/weird/disappointing. Of any song, but in particular this one; if it was only to let 3T hear how the verses went
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Ehh. Invincible needed a whole new sound that wasn't even a thing yet.
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When has Mike ever done that?

Destiny, Off The Wall - funk & disco was already out there
Thriller - nothing really new here as far as a sound and Paul McCartney was from the 1960s.
Bad - a lot of acts was doing synth music in the 1980s, since new wave started in the late 1970s
Dangerous - New Jack Swing had been around since the mid-1980s

On some of Madonna's later songs, she would get these underground dance music producers. Mike would get whoever is popular like R. Kelly, Darkchild, Dallas Austin, Teddy Riley, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Babyface, etc. On Invincible, there was some neo-soul tracks, that had started in the 1990s (Erykah Badu, D'Angelo, Angie Stone, Maxwell). Although they were before neo-soul, you could say some of the songs of acts such as Sade, Anita Baker, & Tony! Toni! Toné! could fit into that. So could 1970s & 1980s R&B ballads called "baby making music", "quiet storm", & "slow jams".
 
Well Michael in his own words was putting music under a microscope to create new sounds somewhere post the 2005 trials but as was often the case this music was never finished or released, laybe he did create something revolutionary but we just don’t know it yet and probably never will.

This was mostly about his song called “water” and @travis3000 i think it was heard it and called it really special unlike anything he had ever heard. He also mentioned some other tracks that sounded very creative and new.
 
DuranDuran said:
When has Mike ever done that?

Destiny, Off The Wall - funk & disco was already out there
Thriller - nothing really new here as far as a sound and Paul McCartney was from the 1960s.
Bad - a lot of acts was doing synth music in the 1980s, since new wave started in the late 1970s
Dangerous - New Jack Swing had been around since the mid-1980s

On some of Madonna's later songs, she would get these underground dance music producers. Mike would get whoever is popular like R. Kelly, Darkchild, Dallas Austin, Teddy Riley, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Babyface, etc. On Invincible, there was some neo-soul tracks, that had started in the 1990s (Erykah Badu, D'Angelo, Angie Stone, Maxwell). Although they were before neo-soul, you could say some of the songs of acts such as Sade, Anita Baker, & Tony! Toni! Toné! could fit into that. So could 1970s & 1980s R&B ballads called "baby making music", "quiet storm", & "slow jams".
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I'm talking about a new sound based on the new trends of the 2000s... Like pretty much just the Neptune's or Timbaland.
 
Victorious said:
Really? I thought 'Come Together' was a remnant from the 'Decade'-concept..?
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Nope, recorded in '86. The video was shot during the Bad era, but the song didn't appear on anything until it became a B-side to Remember the Time....then eventually on HIStory.

Still think they should have put it with the greatest hits cd, and put something else in it's place on disc 2.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
Nope, recorded in '86. The video was shot during the Bad era, but the song didn't appear on anything until it became a B-side to Remember the Time....then eventually on HIStory.

Still think they should have put it with the greatest hits cd, and put something else in it's place on disc 2.
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Recorded in 1985....I feel Michael did this as a "slap" in the face to Paul to show him he purchased the catalog
 
BlackAnon said:
Recorded in 1985....I feel Michael did this as a "slap" in the face to Paul to show him he purchased the catalog
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Don’t think so. Michael really appreciated Lennons writing, so Come Together, I believe, was a song that he had long wanted to make. As soon as he could, he seized the opportunity.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
Nope, recorded in '86. The video was shot during the Bad era, but the song didn't appear on anything until it became a B-side to Remember the Time....then eventually on HIStory.
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I meant that the inclusion of 'Come Together' on History feels so out of place that maybe it was supposed to be on Decade but somehow survived when they transformed the Decade idea into History
 
DuranDuran said:
When has Mike ever done that?

Destiny, Off The Wall - funk & disco was already out there
Thriller - nothing really new here as far as a sound and Paul McCartney was from the 1960s.
Bad - a lot of acts was doing synth music in the 1980s, since new wave started in the late 1970s
Dangerous - New Jack Swing had been around since the mid-1980s

On some of Madonna's later songs, she would get these underground dance music producers. Mike would get whoever is popular like R. Kelly, Darkchild, Dallas Austin, Teddy Riley, Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, Babyface, etc. On Invincible, there was some neo-soul tracks, that had started in the 1990s (Erykah Badu, D'Angelo, Angie Stone, Maxwell). Although they were before neo-soul, you could say some of the songs of acts such as Sade, Anita Baker, & Tony! Toni! Toné! could fit into that. So could 1970s & 1980s R&B ballads called "baby making music", "quiet storm", & "slow jams".
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That's a very good point mate, but I think what Mike did extremely well was refine the latest musical trend, the best examples of that are Off The Wall and Dangerous, he took Disco and New Jack and made them his own.

Mike would take what was going on and make it more contemporary, add sounds, focus the melodies, add his signature hooks/harmonies and redefine that whole genre

I think Invincible was his opportunity to usher in (pardon the pun) a new wave of stripped back instrumentation, which The Neptunes would later do with Timberlake.
 
Victorious said:
I meant that the inclusion of 'Come Together' on History feels so out of place that maybe it was supposed to be on Decade but somehow survived when they transformed the Decade idea into History
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Actually true. Not only Invincible but also History seems like a compilation album of various tracks rather than "one studio album". Imo at least
 
Victorious said:
I believe you, but do you have examples of that? I just find the idea of him not doing some sort of scratch demo hard to imagine/weird/disappointing. Of any song, but in particular this one; if it was only to let 3T hear how the verses went
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Black or White is basically just the first take of the song.
 
Come Together thematically fits the middle of the album. And based on MJs experiences of buying the catalogue, a Beatles cover symbolically also makes sense.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Come Together thematically fits the middle of the album. And based on MJs experiences of buying the catalogue, a Beatles cover symbolically also makes sense.
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How does it fits thematically? A Beatles cover would make sense I guess but not one already recorded in the 80's, which the fans already knew and also doesn't have anything to do with allegations or other aspects of his story?
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
My point was MJ did occasionally make a song and finish it in one go.
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Yes he did, so in that case they were finished from A to Z. But the other user said 'knowing MJ's creative process he probably only recorded the chorus of 'Why?'. In that case MJ would have written the lyrics on paper and then only record the chorus; so no scratch demo, guiding demo or whatever.. Did he do that more often?
 
Victorious said:
Yes he did, so in that case they were finished from A to Z. But the other user said 'knowing MJ's creative process he probably only recorded the chorus of 'Why?'. In that case MJ would have written the lyrics on paper and then only record the chorus; so no scratch demo, guiding demo or whatever.. Did he do that more often?
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MJ didn't sing lyrics off paper though. It was off memory wasn't it?

Black or White was sung before it was finished with being produced. Why, he would've either sung just the chorus, before he memorized the rest, or before it was conceived. Babyface also cowrote it.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
That's a very good point mate, but I think what Mike did extremely well was refine the latest musical trend, the best examples of that are Off The Wall and Dangerous, he took Disco and New Jack and made them his own.

Mike would take what was going on and make it more contemporary, add sounds, focus the melodies, add his signature hooks/harmonies and redefine that whole genre

I think Invincible was his opportunity to usher in (pardon the pun) a new wave of stripped back instrumentation, which The Neptunes would later do with Timberlake.
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Very true, that. No new jack swing I’ve heard – except Mike doing new jack swing – sound like Mike doing new jack swing. A lot of it has to do with his vocals, of course.
 
MJ5 said:
Actually true. Not only Invincible but also History seems like a compilation album of various tracks rather than "one studio album". Imo at least
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Couldn’t the same be said about for instance Bad? It’s his first Greatest Hits on Epic, in a way.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
MJ didn't sing lyrics off paper though. It was off memory wasn't it?

[…]
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Bruce Swedien said as much.

For example, I don’t think I ever saw Michael with the lyrics in front of him. He’d always been up the night before memorising the lyrics and he sang the songs from memory.
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Bruce Swedien interviewed for Sound on Sound, November 2009​
 
Agonum said:
Couldn’t the same be said about for instance Bad? It’s his first Greatest Hits on Epic, in a way.
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Not really. Bad feels complete overall and well selected. History and Invincible do not.
 
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