Jackson syringe testing issues - threads merged

[smoothlugar]

No a bolus injection is not much bigger, 10ml=100g of propofol, that's considered an average bolus injection and if given RAPIDLY could cause death and it DID CAUSE DEATH before.

The syringes were of 10cc=10ml=10g, not 100g.
A bolus injection can cause death yes, but the tox screen showed larger results, remember the Anesthesiology Consultation (the interpretation from an anesthesiology, in the AR) is that the levels found corresponded with "propofol via continuous infusion, after a bolus injection".

The tube was found, the long section of the tubing which normally is attached either to the bag or the vial was found. Murray's problem is no traces of drugs fond in the liquid obtained from that tubing

"A" tube was found. Usually, in a hospital setting there is more than one "tube" for the different medicines.
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That's the defence&#8217;s version of the events; propofol vial attached to the tube which means propofol given via IV drip .Physical evidence collected from the scene contradicts this version.

We know the defence's version. Chernoff said in June that "AC said it was difficult to inject himself, but not "impossible". (He was being very witty and interested obviously and interpreting the AC according to his interests). He also said that AC stated that "anyone" could have administered the medication once the IV was started (but not the patient; that's the point I wanted to make. This is impossible because there was no long tube with traces of propofol, as you also say).

50mg did not need no infusion pump

True, but you were talking about a continuous infusion that's why the infusion pump was mentioned.
<o>

<o>Again the amount he claimed he was giving daily to MJ did not need an infusion pump</o>

</o><o>Murray can claim whatever he wants to, what matters is what the toxicology exam showed. The fact that he contradicted himself so many times does not contribute to believe him.
<o></o>

ANYONE (which means including MIKE) could have done it.

I remember Chernoff smiling on the CNN interview when he said that the anesthesiologist must have considered all the facts in this case. (I thought that the AC was talking in general from a medical point of view only.)

Since they said it was INJECTION BY SOMEELSE, it means it was a bolus injection

I said before that "intravenous injection by someone else" was stated on 26 June, and that the Anesthesiology Consultation (made by an anesthesiologist) was signed on 3rd August, after the toxicology exams were ready (which was later than the report of the 26J, as Justthefact has already stated).

Keep in mind, they had to take into consideration the PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOUND AT THE SCENE along with the tux report to determine the cause of death. <o></o>

I agree. That's why that "clearing" of the crime scene could be even worse for CM.

<o></o>
<o></o>

But other cases of deaths caused by NORMAL BUT RAPID bolus injections of propofol do have almost the exact same levels of propofol concentrations, which make this point VOID.

But not on all the samples... I give credit to the AC and the professional interpretation of the levels found.

Urine concentration is enough prove it was used for a relatively very short time prior to death.<o></o>

There were two samples, one of them was the one collected at the crime scene. That's why I said Murray lied when he said he didn't give prop till 10:40.


Anyway I am not arguing. In fact there are many things I do not understand. I only want to seek the truth. I try to interpret as best as I can what it's written in the official documents only. But it's important to have the facts clear, because they're already complex on their own and it's esay to make assumptions that can contribute to confusion instead of clarification. My little aim was to contribute to the latter. What I want is that Justice is done.</o>
:agree:


PS: Soundmind, I asked about the "spike" issue because I've heard about it on different fan boards, and from Muzikfactory videos too. Once, I came across that term while reading the official documents, or that I wrongly think I remember, but when I tried to scan again for it, I couldn't find anything, that's why I asked, obviously I wasn't referring to Harvey Levin, who has told so many obvious lies regarding this case and in general, against Michael.

 

[Soundmind]

The syringes were of 10cc=10ml=10g, not 100g.
A bolus injection can cause death yes, but the tox screen showed larger results, remember the Anaesthesiology Consultation (the interpretation from an anaesthesiology, in the AR) is that the levels found corresponded with "propofol via continuous infusion, after a bolus injection".<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o> </o>

10ml=100g not 10g that&#8217;s BASIC medical knowledge, google it. <o></o>
&#8220;The levels found corresponded with propofol via continuous infusion, after a bolus injection&#8221;, yeah I know but what does that mean really? The amounts given as a bolus injection to induce sleep and then continuous infusion to maintain sleep could very well have been given as TWO bolus injections. She was not really saying they were given that way, she was stating the amounts found USUALLY are given that way. <o></o>
<o> </o>
Reread the tox report. Blood concentration 4.1, liver concentration 6.2, Urine (bladder 400ml) 0.15. <o></o>
<o> </o>
Urine is produced at a rate of 50ml/h, the bladder contents (400ml) would have been produced within the last 8 hours of MJ&#8217;s life. The concentration in his urine was 0.15 based on what I mentioned previously the amount he received in the last 8 hours of his life could not have exceeded 20ml=200g of propofol. A relatively very small amount( not large doses or overdose..etc)
<o> </o>
Is not 200mg dose corresponds with propofol given via a continues infusion after a bolus injection? SURE, the question is how did Murray administer it? Based on the evidence collected from the scene Bolus injections. <o></o>
<o> </o>

"A" tube was found. Usually, in a hospital setting there is more than one "tube" for the different medicines.

<o> </o>
Well, Murray did not really care; he did not bring the vast majority of what a hospital setting usually has. But you r right, he will probably say Alvarez took the &#8216;right&#8217; tube to protect MJ&#8217;s reputation.
<o> </o>

But not the patient; that's the point I wanted to make. This is impossible because there was no long tube with traces of propofol, as you also say).

<o> </o>
Anyone could have done it INCLUDING MIKE if it was a continuous infusion, that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m telling u the defence is trying to figure a legal excuse for that particular tube to not be admitted as evidence,else they will blame Alvarez for the 'missing' tube with propofol.
<o> </o>

I said before that "intravenous injection by someone else" was stated on 26 June, and that the Anaesthesiology Consultation (made by an anaesthesiologist) was signed on 3rd August, after the toxicology exams were ready (which was later than the report of the 26J, as Justthefact has already stated).

<o></o>
<o> </o>
No, not true, they did not state the cause of death, they released his death certificate on July 7; "Michael Jackson&#8217;s death certificate was filed today with the Department of Health Services in Los Angeles. It&#8217;s signed by Los Angeles County deputy coroner Cheryl Mac Willie, and lists the cause of death as &#8220;deferred.&#8221; La Toya Jackson is listed as the informant for Jackson&#8217;s death certificate. His race is listed as black, with the King of Pop&#8217;s occupation listed as musician....."<o></o>
<o> </o>
<o> </o>

But not on all the samples... I give credit to the AC and the professional interpretation of the levels found.

<o> </o>
What I&#8217;m saying does not contradict what she stated. The normal doses for surgery are given usually the way she mentioned. Murray obviously was more &#8216;creative&#8217; and MJ ended up dead. Blood concentartion show he died within mintue to two after the bolus injection, liver concentration shows he must have received propofol ten to 15 minutes before death, urine concentration shows he only recieved AT MOST 200g=20ml in the 8 hours prior to death. I would say, he gave him a bolus injection 15 minutes before his death and when he felt MJ was going to woke up he injcted him with the second one. If you take into consideration the nonstop phone calls for 47 mintues at the time, he was injecting him while he was on the phone,there was no break, not even one minute. So one hand handling the phone ,the other injecting and MJ died there infront of him.
<o> </o>

There were two samples, one of them was the one collected at the crime scene. That's why I said Murray lied when he said he didn't give prop till 10:40.

<o></o>
I believe the amount was 550ml, with concentration of 0.10, means during the ten hours that amount of urine was produced MJ received a relatively small amount of propofol. QUESTION REMAINS: when that amount was produced? It is very fair to assume AT LEAST 8 hours before the death. <o></o>
<o> </o>

PS: Soundmind, I asked about the "spike" issue because I've heard about it on different fan boards, and from Muzikfactory videos too. Once, I came across that term while reading the official documents, or that I wrongly think I remember, but when I tried to scan again for it,
I couldn't find anything, that's why I asked, obviously I wasn't referring to Harvey Levin, who has told so many obvious lies regarding this case and in general, against Michael.<o></o>

<o> </o>
Fair enough, I&#8217;m just telling you don&#8217;t waste your time cus the only time it was mentioned was on TMZ by Harvey Levin. <o></o>

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I also think Murray was injecting MJ when he died. Murray was on the phone so he had no idea that MJ stopped breathing. Murray was reckless as hell. Talking on the phone, shooting anesthesia into someone without monitoring them is insane. He needs to be jailed and stripped of his medical license. Would he be chatting on the phone in a hospital room with any other patient?

 

[smoothlugar]

10ml=100g not 10g that&#8217;s BASIC medical knowledge, google it. <o></o>

I think you misunderstood me and you're mixing things up.

By the way 10ml emulsion =100mg of propofol, not g. (for prop 1%).

I cannot write right now, but as soon as I can I will.

PS: I haven't read your whole reply yet. You're probably right in what you say about the bolus...

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

None of this matters.. MJ is dead and Murray killed. He should not have been giving MJ propofol as a sleep aid anyway. If he felt he didn't know what he was doing in trying to help MJ's insomnia then he should've referred MJ to another doctor.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

By the way 10ml emulsion =100mg of propofol, not g. (for prop 1%).

yea sorry. That's what I meant.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Unfortunately, the defence strategy want to cover both techniques of administering propofol, at least, that is what they said in the interview I mentioned.

As for the prosecution, though initially it was handwritten in a sort of form that of "by (intr.) injection" (dated: 26J and also Final On: 7th Aug,), once the tox results were ready as well as the interpretation from the anesthesiologist, the coroner concluded on 19th August "that propofol was administered by another", but did not specify whether it was by bolus or not.

Let's hope the best medical experts can contribute for justice to be done.

(As for the urine samples comments I'd leave them aside. We must take into account that propofol concentration levels diminish very fast in the body antemortem and the opposite postmortem.)

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Murray already admitted administering the propofol, so it was definitely done by another. Murray claims he stayed next to MJ's side until he 'fell asleep'

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The point under discussion was whether the coroner had stated or not that the propofol had been administered by injection.

It has been widely explained. IT'S in AR.
--------------

Is not 200mg dose corresponds with propofol given via a continues infusion after a bolus injection?

No. Via a continuous infusion you can get bigger doses: 4-12mg/kg/hour.

------------
I wonder how Murray will explain how he managed to administer 25mg via IV drip (2.5ml of the Diprivan bottle)!!!

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The point under discussion was whether the coroner had stated or not that the propofol had been administered by injection.

It has been widely explained. IT'S in AR.
--------------

No. Via a continuous infusion you can get bigger doses: 4-12mg/kg/hour.

------------
I wonder how Murray will explain how he managed to administer 25mg via IV drip (2.5ml of the Diprivan bottle)!!!

good question.. I found that odd too.. he also said 25 mg which would've put Mike to sleep for 10 minutes. What purpose would that would've served? At 10:50 am Mike should've been getting up not going to sleep. Murray is lying and I can't wait until this preliminary hearing next month.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

good question.. I found that odd too.. he also said 25 mg which would've put Mike to sleep for 10 minutes. What purpose would that would've served? At 10:50 am Mike should've been getting up not going to sleep. Murray is lying and I can't wait until this preliminary hearing next month.

yes, everything said by him is odd, contradictory and false.
Several anesthesiologists have declared 25mg don't put anyone to sleep.
An induction dose of the anaesthetic, 2-2.5mg/kg, makes the patient sleep for 5 to 10 minutes. His statements don't make any sense at all... Same as you, cannot wait till next month preliminary hearing.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Unfortunately, the defence strategy want to cover both techniques of administering propofol, at least, that is what they said in the interview I mentioned.

As for the prosecution, though initially it was handwritten in a sort of form that of "by (intr.) injection" (dated: 26J and also Final On: 7th Aug,), once the tox results were ready as well as the interpretation from the anesthesiologist, the coroner concluded on 19th August "that propofol was administered by another", but did not specify whether it was by bolus or not.

The expert considered both theories. The expert clearly stated MJ would not have been able to do it if it was a bolus injection" sleep could not be maintained". The defence won't find a medical expert who will testify MJ could have injected himself with enough dose to kill himself.The coroner made that statement after alot of research. She knew she would be questioned on the stand in a high profile trial and sure she took extra measures before going on record with that conclusion.
she did state the IV must have been started by someone with medical knowledge and once it was started anyone could have done it again INCLUDING MIKE which happened before, yes it happened, so how could you tell me the expert said EXCEPT Mike. Based on the evidence collected from the scene and the expert report Murray was accused of doing it. So the conclusion was clear; a bolus injection not an IV drip as Murray claimed.

No. Via a continuous infusion you can get bigger doses: 4-12mg/kg/hour

God , I know, 4-12mg/kg/HOUR. He was not given propofol for hours, it was given for minutes.

You induce sleep by slowly giving 40 t0 50 mg and keep pushing, as you said an average bolus injection would be 2mg/kg after that you hook the patient to IV drip to maintain sleep and the dose would be 4-12mg/h. So the amounts found don't contradict what I'm saying, they were more than ONE BOLUS INJECTION but based on the liver, the urine concentrations it did not exceed 200mg.

I wonder how Murray will explain how he managed to administer 25mg via IV drip (2.5ml of the Diprivan bottle)!!!

I highly doubt he will take the stand. Is it possible to do so? yea. Medically , could the effect last more than minute or two? NO. They will bring in the psychological dependency and how Murray pretended he was given him propfol to protect him from himself. Katherine's comment about asking MJ's doctor to pretend he was redoing his nose will sure be heard by the jurors, Chernoff is smart enough to do it.

he also said 25 mg which would've put Mike to sleep for 10 minutes

25mg would not have even been enough to induce sleep, so what ten mintues are you taking about?

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The expert considered both theories. The expert clearly stated MJ would not have been able to do it if it was a bolus injection" sleep could not be maintained". The defence won't find a medical expert who will testify MJ could have injected himself with enough dose to kill himself.The coroner made that statement after alot of research. She knew she would be questioned on the stand in a high profile trial and sure she took extra measures before going on record with that conclusion.
she did state the IV must have been started by someone with medical knowledge and once it was started anyone could have done it again INCLUDING MIKE which happened before, yes it happened, so how could you tell me the expert said EXCEPT Mike. Based on the evidence collected from the scene and the expert report Murray was accused of doing it. So the conclusion was clear; a bolus injection not an IV drip as Murray claimed.





God , I know, 4-12mg/kg/HOUR. He was not given propofol for hours, it was given for minutes.

You induce sleep by slowly giving 40 t0 50 mg and keep pushing, as you said an average bolus injection would be 2mg/kg after that you hook the patient to IV drip to maintain sleep and the dose would be 4-12mg/h. So the amounts found don't contradict what I'm saying, they were more than ONE BOLUS INJECTION but based on the liver, the urine concentrations it did not exceed 200mg.



I highly doubt he will take the stand. Is it possible to do so? yea. Medically , could the effect last more than minute or two? NO. They will bring in the psychological dependency and how Murray pretended he was given him propfol to protect him from himself. Katherine's comment about asking MJ's doctor to pretend he was redoing his nose will sure be heard by the jurors, Chernoff is smart enough to do it.




25mg would not have even been enough to induce sleep, so what ten mintues are you taking about?

You know when Katherine made that comment I said watch I bet Chernoff uses that. I swear the Jacksons have given Murray all kinds of excuses to help his case. What puzzles me is that he said he gave 25 mg via IV drip and Mike 'finally' went to sleep. That's not even believable since you said 25 mg doesn't even induce sleep. Does Murray know 25mg doesn't induce sleep? I guess he didn't when he gave that interview to the police

 

[smoothlugar]

The expert clearly stated MJ would not have been able to do it

No. She said that it would have been difficult. Chernoff took advantage of that and said that she didn't say "impossible".

o how could you tell me the expert said EXCEPT Mike.

The anesthesiologist didn't exclude Michael, I did, and mentioned it would be impossible for CM to show how an IV drip could have been used, as there is no evidence of any tube with traces of prop.

Based on the evidence collected from the scene

On the evening. In the wrongful death lawsuit, it is said Alberto Álvarez was instructed by Murray to clear the crime scene.

So the conclusion was clear; a bolus injection not an IV drip as Murray claimed.

Murray CANNOT claim it was by an IV drip, he said that to the police, but he will later say that he meant the IV system or that it was the police who misunderstood him. He cannot prove he used an IV drip because there's no evidence, only the syringes and besides because it would incriminate him more if he admitted having administered a continuous infusion without an infusion pump. (He would also have to admit larger amounts for that).

A lie, an a lie, cause everyone headaches... There's no rational behind, too many lies.

God , I know, 4-12mg/kg/HOUR. He was not given propofol for hours, it was given for minutes.

They're doses for continuous infusion. It can last 10 minutes.

So the amounts found don't contradict what I'm saying, they were more than ONE BOLUS INJECTION but based on the liver, the urine concentrations it did not exceed 200mg.

I don't know if that can be concluded so easily. I know that blood concentration is within the range after a bolus induction dose. But there was a case where the femoral blood prop level was 2.5ug/ml and the total dose was 1600mg!!

I highly doubt he will take the stand. Is it possible to do so? yea. Medically , could the effect last more than minute or two? NO. They will bring in the psychological dependency and how Murray pretended he was given him propfol to protect him from himself. Katherine's comment about asking MJ's doctor to pretend he was redoing his nose will sure be heard by the jurors, Chernoff is smart enough to do it.

Chernoff will invent anything yes, but he won't be able to show that CM used 25mg via IV drip. He would say the police misunderstood his client. 2.5ml of the Diprivan bottle is easier and SAFER by an injection, the other option for HALF A teaSPOON is crazy (and dangerous without the infusion pump because instead of 25mg, the whole bottle can be emptied- the "spike" issue...).

 

[Soundmind]

"No. She said that it would have been difficult. Chernoff took advantage of that and said that she didn't say "impossible".""Could the decedent have given propofol to him? It is unknown where the propofol physically came from. It would have been difficult for the patient to administer the drugs (others besides propofol were administered) to himself, given the configuration of the IV set-up. The IV catheter was in the left leg. The injection port of the IV tubing was 13.5 cm from the tip in the catheter. He would have had to bend his knee sharply or sit up to reach the injection port and push the syringe barrel, an awkward situation, especially if sleep was the goal. If only bolus injections via a syringe were used, sleep would not have been maintained, due to the short action of propofol. Someone with medical knowledge or experience would have started the IV. Anyone could have drawn up and administered the medications after the IV was started. "
Read carefully. It was "difficult" for MJ to administer ALL the drugs not only propofol due to the configuration of the IV. She then goes more specifically and states if only bolus injections via a syringe were used, MJ would not have been able to inject enough to maintain sleep. She said HE WOULD NOT BEEN ABLE, SHE DID NOT SAY IT WAS DIFFICULT, very clear. "The anesthesiologist didn't exclude Michael, I did, and mentioned it would be impossible for CM to show how an IV drip could have been used, as there is no evidence of any tube with traces of prop. "
Alvarez will be blamed, and he did make it much easier for Murray's defence when he did not tell the police what he did the first time he was interviewed.


"On the evening. In the wrongful death lawsuit, it is said Alberto Álvarez was instructed by Murray to clear the crime scene."
We know Chernoff will twist it and claim Alvrez did it to protect MJ and no one asked him to do anything.

"Murray CANNOT claim it was by an IV drip, he said that to the police, but he will later say that he meant the IV system or that it was the police who misunderstood him. He cannot prove he used an IV drip because there's no evidence, only the syringes and besides because it would incriminate him more if he admitted having administered a continuous infusion without an infusion pump. (He would also have to admit larger amounts for that)."
Murray had three days to discuss with his lawyer what to say. He had the advantage of knowing exactly what happened and they build up their story in away to shift the blame to MJ and Alvarez. Murray has no choice but to stick with 'iv drip' ELSE as the expert stated he has to take the blame for the death.
Administering 200mg via an IV drip without an infusion pump is not as incriminating as injecting a bolus injection when you are HOLDING a phone and talking. He was on the phone nonstop for 47 minutes between 11:2? and 12:03.
what scenario is worse?

1.MJ hooked to an IV drip, Murray setting there watching him & talking on the phone or

2.Murray injecting MJ via a bolus injection using one hand and on the other he's holding his phone . Imagine how ABSURD this picture will appear , how negligent Murray will appear, and how easy for the jurors to believe he screwed up and injected rapidly and MJ died.

"A lie, an a lie, cause everyone headaches... There's no rational behind, too many lies. "

Sure, hopefully the jurors will be bright enough not to believe the nonsense that came and will come out of Murray and Chernoff's mouth.

"They're doses for continuous infusion. It can last 10 minutes."

4-12/kg/h this equation means in MJ's case (4+12)/2*63=504 mg would be the usual dose given to maintain sleep for an hour after a bolus injection. So what do you mean by "It can last 10 minutes"?




"I don't know if that can be concluded so easily. I know that blood concentration is within the range after a bolus induction dose. But there was a case where the femoral blood prop level was 2.5ug/ml and the total dose was 1600mg!! "

The blood concentration does not indicate the amount given. It indicates the survival time .It means MJ died within minute to two after a bolus injection.
The case you are talking about was of a Chinese male who committed suicide hooking himself to an IV drip and receiving 1600mg. True the femoral blood levels are similar to those of MJ, further prove that blood concentrations has nothing to do with determining HOW MUCH and FOR HOW LONG propofol was given . The liver concentration was 22 , MJ was 6.2. Urine concentration was 3.6, MJ was 0.15 .
That's why I said the amount MJ received was NORMAL but RAPID.



"Chernoff will invent anything yes, but he won't be able to show that CM used 25mg via IV drip. He would say the police misunderstood his client. 2.5ml of the Diprivan bottle is easier and SAFER by an injection, the other option for HALF A teaSPOON is crazy (and dangerous without the infusion pump because instead of 25mg, the whole bottle can be emptied- the "spike" issue...).[/QUOTE]"

No it would have been much safer by an IV drip. Take into account the long section of the tube. Regardless of how fast the drops were, it would still take more time to reach the vain than when someone injecting directly into your vain. ESPECIALLY someone talking on the phone.BTW, 25 mg could not have killed MJ even if they were given rapidly.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

It was "difficult" for MJ to administer ALL the drugs not only propofol due to the configuration of the IV. She then goes more specifically and states if only bolus injections via a syringe were used,

I read the paragraph very well (and unfortunately many times), thanks.
"All" INCLUDES propofol and benzodiacepines which had a contributory effect.For all of them it would have been phisically difficult "FOR THE PATIENT".
"More specifically" gives additional info about the effect of the drug: "SLEEP would not have been maintained."

There's no point in going on discussing our reading comprehension skills.

CM is responsible in any scenary anyway.
- Not qualified or trained.
- Not proper and REQUIRED equipment.
- Did not monitor the patient. (47 minutes on phone)
- Did not call Emergencies inmediately.
- Wasted time procuring witnesses to see him practising CPR.
- Wasted time "cleaning" the scene and OBSTRUCTING justice.
- And telling lies all the time...

.................

True the femoral blood levels are similar to those of MJ, further prove that blood concentrations has nothing to do with determining HOW MUCH and FOR HOW LONG propofol was given . The liver concentration was 22 , MJ was 6.2. Urine concentration was 3.6, MJ was 0.15 .

If you have read that article (Criminal Justice), you'd know that when talking about blood concentration (not femoral) in another case, they say that the level was "within the range" of blood propofol concentrations after a bolus induction dose. On the other hand an anesthesiologist decides on the proper dose according to the targetted blood concentration he/she aims at, so I deduce "blood concentration" must be relevant in a way.

That's why I said the amount MJ received was NORMAL but RAPID.

Then the anesthesiologist should not have talked about LEVELS of propofol found similar to those with infusionS after a bolus: "The levels of propofol found on toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions after a bolus induction.
If it had been (or potentially could have been) a "normal", but rapid injection, the expert should have established that.

No it would have been much safer by an IV drip. Take into account the long section of the tube. Regardless of how fast the drops were, it would still take more time to reach the vain than when someone injecting directly into your vain. ESPECIALLY someone talking on the phone.

I see what you mean, but remember that if he did that he could not have managed the final amount dropped since he did not have any precision dosifier and was busy on the phone for 47 minutes.

WHATEVER SCENARIO, Murray is responsible for the crime.

Let's not complicate with his lies and fostering misunderstandings among ourselves.

PS: I will read more about what you are saying in the proper thread, but not for further discussions, please:agree:

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Whichever scenario happened, Murray is still at fault in my opinion. He is the doctor and he is responsible. His excuse that he left the room for 2 minutes max to use the bathroom doesn't pass the smell test. He said that to give MJ or 'someone' else time to do it. If that's the case it still proves his negligence. You don't leave a patient under anesthesia alone for any reason. If needed Murray should've peed on himself or in a cup but you don't leave that patient alone. In my opinion Murray is screwed with whatever scenario he comes up with. I still don't think he will be able to find a credible doctor or anesthesiologist that will testify for him.. I don't see any professional wanting to risk their reputation by saying using propofol for sleep is a good idea and not having equipment available is fine and dandy. I just don't see that happening.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

personally i think we should be careful what gets discussed on here.we are creating defences for murray and we all know how the SBPD visited the boards during 03-05

Alvarez will be blamed, and he did make it much easier for Murray's defence when he did not tell the police what he did the first time he was interviewed.

from what i remember alberto only talked to the police at the hospital.there was no proper first interview where he didnt disclose the info. the police never got back to him after the first chat and his lawyers had to go to them to say we need to talk to you

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

personally i think we should be careful what gets discussed on here.we are creating defences for murray and we all know how the SBPD visited the boards during 03-05


from what i remember alberto only talked to the police at the hospital.there was no proper first interview where he didnt disclose the info. the police never got back to him after the first chat and his lawyers had to go to them to say we need to talk to you

exactly...Alvarez and Amir's attorney, Carl Douglas, was basically begging to talk to the police. The police had not formally interviewed them at that time but they eventually spoke to them. From what I remember Amir is the one who told Murray's negligent behind to call 911. I also don't understand how a medical professional didn't call 911 because they didn't know the address and there was no working phones in the house. Murray's had a cell phone yet he didn't call 911. He already knew MJ was dead if you ask me

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

from what i remember alberto only talked to the police at the hospital.there was no proper first interview where he didnt disclose the info. the police never got back to him after the first chat and his lawyers had to go to them to say we need to talk to you

Unfortuenatly here lays the problem.As you said we should not 'help' Murray build his defence. Regardless of everything I do believe the prosecution has a very solid case against him and it won't be easy for him to back off from his very well documenetd statement.

 

[StacyJ]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101208/ap_en_mu/us_michael_jackson_doctor


APNewsBreak: Jackson syringes still not tested


By ANTHONY McCARTNEY, AP Entertainment Writer Anthony Mccartney, Ap Entertainment Writer – 2 hrs 33 mins ago
LOS ANGELES – Attorneys for the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death asked a judge on Wednesday to order testing on two syringes and an IV bag found in the pop singer's home that they say are rapidly deteriorating.

The request comes after more than a month of private meetings between defense attorneys, prosecutors and the judge to try to reach an agreement about the testing.

Dr. Conrad Murray's defense team has expressed urgency, saying fluids in the items are deteriorating rapidly and have become "salt" in one of the syringes.

The tests they are seeking may determine the quantities of drugs in the items, which the cardiologist's lawyers say could be crucial information during trial. It is also expected to destroy the substances and not enough remains for multiple attempts, according to transcripts of the meetings obtained by The Associated Press.

Attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the AP that he submitted a motion Wednesday asking a judge to order the testing after being unable to reach an agreement with prosecutors about the testing. No hearing date has been set, he said.

Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's death in June 2009 at age 50. Authorities say he gave the singer a lethal dose of sedatives, including the anesthetic propofol and painkiller lidocaine.

"We are running out of time," Flanagan said.

An e-mail message left for district attorney's spokeswoman Sandi Gibbons was not immediately returned Wednesday.

Prosecutors have refused to agree to a testing plan. "We don't think it is relevant," prosecutor David Walgren said during a Dec. 16 meeting, according to a transcript.

Court transcripts obtained by the AP show that Murray's defense attorneys, prosecutors and Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor have spoken in chambers three times about the syringes and testing.

Transcripts from the meetings show Murray's defense team is willing to have the items tested by the Los Angeles coroner's office. The fluids have degraded and it remained unknown whether the proposed testing will yield useful information, according to the transcripts.

Murray's attorneys contend testing, which would establish the quantities of the drugs, should have been done along with other tests after the singer's death.

Flanagan said he had been trying to get the testing done for more than five months to no avail.

The results of the tests are not expected to be used during Murray's preliminary hearing, which is scheduled to begin Jan. 4. At that hearing, Pastor will determine whether there is enough evidence for Murray to stand trial on an involuntary manslaughter charge.

Walgren said during a meeting with the judge last week the hearing may be delayed a few days because of scheduling problems with witnesses. The prosecutor said he could call as many as 35 witnesses during the hearing, which is expected to last two to three weeks, according to a transcript of the in-chambers meeting.

The judge said he wanted the hearing to begin on time due to his busy trial schedule.

In a separate case, Murray retained his license to practice medicine in Nevada after reaching an agreement Friday with the state medical board in which he admitted making inaccurate and incomplete statements to the board about being current on child support.

Murray received a reprimand and agreed to pay at least $3,700 in investigation costs, Deputy Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners chief Edward Cousineau said Wednesday.

___

Associated Press writer Ken Ritter in Las Vegas contributed to this report.

 

[Vici]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

what is taking such a time? *sigh*

 

[JMie]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

oh, I am relieved to know that this testing thing won't postpone the Jan 4 hearing. I was afraid it would.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

oh, I am relieved to know that this testing thing won't postpone the Jan 4 hearing. I was afraid it would.

no it has no effect. I honestly believe that Murray's team is just stalling. Murray knows what was in those tubes because they were his tubes. He brought them there and filled them up so he knows. His team is just trying to confuse the potential jury pool to make it seem as though someone tampered with the amounts. Murray was the only person in that room with MJ and no one but him messed with those tubes

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Prosecutors have refused to agree to a testing plan. "We don't think it is relevant," prosecutor David Walgren said during a Dec. 16 meeting, according to a transcript.

exactly its irrelvent

urray's attorneys contend testing, which would establish the quantities of the drugs

er no they wont. the quantities is what was in mj. whats in the syringes etc is irrelevent.

Walgren said during a meeting with the judge last week the hearing may be delayed a few days because of scheduling problems with witnesses. The prosecutor said he could call as many as 35 witnesses during the hearing, which is expected to last two to three weeks, according to a transcript of the in-chambers meeting.

FFS get on with. surprised at so many witnesses.

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

They already said that, in his sworn statement Murray said he gave propofol via an IV drip, not a bolus injection. The syringes and the IV system collected from the scene prove he did it via bolus injection which prove what he did was much more worse in terms of negligent . I believe they are trying to figure out a strategy to taint the discovery and handling of the syringes and the IV system to later ask the judge to prohibit the prosecution from using them in the trial. They have no choice but to try and convince the judge to not admit the IV system as evidence. A bolus injection means Murray can't blame MJ, they need to make the jury believe it was given via an IV drip which contradict the physical evidence.

This really confused me as it contradicted what a medical expert told me before. So I contacted her again about this, and here is what she said.

Let's start first with the concentration of the drug itself. Propofol has a concentration of 10mg/1ml so to make that easier to visualize, 5ml = 1 teaspoon. So, the 25mg that Murray claims to have given Michael would only equal a 1/2 teaspoon of liquid or 2.5ml, which would be impossible to administer ACCURATELY without using a syringe if you didn't have a IV pump present, which he did not. The evidence collected at the scene, did NOT prove that he ONLY gave a bolus dose via syringe because the IV set up was such that the mainline contained normal saline only (which in an interesting side note, normal saline, 0.9%, is NOT listed as even being compatible with propofol when mixed and not recommended to be used as the mainline carrier)..HOWEVER, there was a short set also present that had been "y" into the mainline and when tested contained propofol, lidocaine, and the benzo reversal drug flumazenil. It is common practice when administering IV medication, especially in this type of scenario, to use a mainline of something such as saline (0.9% NACL), lactated ringers (LR), or 0.5% dextrose in water (D5W) as a carrier of sorts, and then use a separate set up or a "short set" to "y" the meds into that mainline, a short set would be unnecessary altogether for a one time bolus injection because you only need an additional IV setup if you "spike" a bag, or in this case, a bottle of propofol. If he had no intention of "spiking" the bottle and then running it as a continuous drip, there are ports present in the mainline IV setup for syringe injections to be given and he would not have used a second set. Propofol is NOT a drug that can be delivered via drip without using a pump to regulate it's delivery and after the initial "induction" dose to produce unconsciousness, it must then be titrated to effect i.e. giving the patient intermittent boluses dependent upon the patient's response. For Michael, the induction dose should have been less than 20mg based on his weight, and then decreased even further based on what he had already been given. The sedation that results from an appropriately given bolus of propofol only lasts for 5 to 10 minutes due to it's very short half life which is why after the initial induction, to continue sedation you must continue to give it in small increments. The mainline is needed with a propofol drip simply because without a carrier of some kind being allowed to run concurrently, the IV line would quickly clot off simply because the dose of propofol is so small that it would lack the needed pressure within the vessel to keep it open.

Here's the next issue, there were 11 empty bottles of propofol collected from the scene, (3) 100ml bottles, and (8) 20ml bottles. This is a total of 460ml or 4600mg of propofol that was presumably used over a 6 week period, or 42 incidents of administration by Murray. In his statement, Murray claims that prior to his attempts at "weaning" Michael off of the propofol, he had been giving him a 50mg dose. At 50mg a night for 42 nights, this only equals 2100mg or 210ml. Clearly, this is less than half of what was actually given to Michael over that time period if that is judged simply by examining the evidence found at the scene. In fact, and even more horrifying, is that although there were 11 empty propofol bottles discovered at the scene, it certainly does not mean that there weren't additional empty bottles that had already been disposed of over that 6 week time period. If he had saved every vial or bottle he had used during that time period, there would also have been multiple vials of the benzodiazepines that he had given Michael also present at the scene.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

What I would like to know is how will Murray explain that since he knew MJ was healthy he thought it was a good idea to help his patient's insomnia with propofol?

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

What I would like to know is how will Murray explain that since he knew MJ was healthy he thought it was a good idea to help his patient's insomnia with propofol?

And that is exactly why we are here discussing this. That question goes back to the very root of all this. He said that Michael "BEGGED" him for it. And "will pay him lots of $$$".

That is his explanation. Clear and simple.

Now take that and compare it to Dr. Treacy's words about Michael and propofol and the fact that Michael didn't sign the contract for Murray, and the word that went around about Michael about to fire Dr. Murray and didn't want him in Lodon, and Michael's own words of not wanting an addictive drug. It does not add up.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Let's start first with the concentration of the drug itself. Propofol has a concentration of 10mg/1ml so to make that easier to visualize, 5ml = 1 teaspoon. So, the 25mg that Murray claims to have given Michael would only equal a 1/2 teaspoon of liquid or 2.5ml, which would be impossible to administer ACCURATELY without using a syringe if you didn't have a IV pump present, which he did not. The evidence collected at the scene, did NOT prove that he ONLY gave a bolus dose via syringe because the IV set up was such that the mainline contained normal saline only (which in an interesting side note, normal saline, 0.9%, is NOT listed as even being compatible with propofol when mixed and not recommended to be used as the mainline carrier)..HOWEVER, there was a short set also present that had been "y" into the mainline and when tested contained propofol, lidocaine, and the benzo reversal drug flumazenil. It is common practice when administering IV medication, especially in this type of scenario, to use a mainline of something such as saline (0.9% NACL), lactated ringers (LR), or 0.5% dextrose in water (D5W) as a carrier of sorts, and then use a separate set up or a "short set" to "y" the meds into that mainline, a short set would be unnecessary altogether for a one time bolus injection because you only need an additional IV setup if you "spike" a bag, or in this case, a bottle of propofol. If he had no intention of "spiking" the bottle and then running it as a continuous drip, there are ports present in the mainline IV setup for syringe injections to be given and he would not have used a second set. Propofol is NOT a drug that can be delivered via drip without using a pump to regulate it's delivery and after the initial "induction" dose to produce unconsciousness, it must then be titrated to effect i.e. giving the patient intermittent boluses dependent upon the patient's response. For Michael, the induction dose should have been less than 20mg based on his weight, and then decreased even further based on what he had already been given. The sedation that results from an appropriately given bolus of propofol only lasts for 5 to 10 minutes due to it's very short half life which is why after the initial induction, to continue sedation you must continue to give it in small increments. The mainline is needed with a propofol drip simply because without a carrier of some kind being allowed to run concurrently, the IV line would quickly clot off simply because the dose of propofol is so small that it would lack the needed pressure within the vessel to keep it open.

Here's the next issue, there were 11 empty bottles of propofol collected from the scene, (3) 100ml bottles, and (8) 20ml bottles. This is a total of 460ml or 4600mg of propofol that was presumably used over a 6 week period, or 42 incidents of administration by Murray. In his statement, Murray claims that prior to his attempts at "weaning" Michael off of the propofol, he had been giving him a 50mg dose. At 50mg a night for 42 nights, this only equals 2100mg or 210ml. Clearly, this is less than half of what was actually given to Michael over that time period if that is judged simply by examining the evidence found at the scene. In fact, and even more horrifying, is that although there were 11 empty propofol bottles discovered at the scene, it certainly does not mean that there weren't additional empty bottles that had already been disposed of over that 6 week time period. If he had saved every vial or bottle he had used during that time period, there would also have been multiple vials of the benzodiazepines that he had given Michael also present at the scene.

Very well explained. That'st why I said before that half a teaspoon could only be administered by syringe. Very interesting the explanation of the tube attached to the Y connector.
Thank you.

EDIT: to avoid misunderstandings 25mg are only used for conscious sedation.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

And that is exactly why we are here discussing this. That question goes back to the very root of all this. He said that Michael "BEGGED" him for it. And "will pay him lots of $$$".
That is his explanation. Clear and simple.

Now take that and compare it to Dr. Treacy's words about Michael and propofol and the fact that Michael didn't sign the contract for Murray, and the word that went around about Michael about to fire Dr. Murray and didn't want him in Lodon, and Michael's own words of not wanting an addictive drug. It does not add up.

Nope it doesn't. Although propofol is not supposedly addictive. Do you think Dr Treacy will be testifying? Also do you think Dr Murray will honestly admit that he threw away his ethical obligation for money? Although we all know he did, I don't think that he will admit it. He will just say his goal was to just 'help' Michael, although he's a liar. What I don't understand is Murray's obligation to Michael was to find a safe method of treating his chronic insomniac patient but he chose this method. I hope every medical expert that testifies makes him feel absolutely horrible. Murray should've told AEG and anyone else that MJ suffered from chronic insomnia and should not be doing this tour until he gets better. At that time Murray should've referred his patient to a sleep specialist not pump him with drugs.