Jackson syringe testing issues - threads merged

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

delete

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

^ this is heading towards conspiracy.....so I won't get much into it.

A small amount given at any time during that night could help Murray in his story that "he was trying to wean Michael off". Maybe it was given on purpose. That to me, makes good sense if this was all planned to look like an accident. Things like this are planned by the very detail.



so is the claiming that Michael needed that propofol to sleep during this time.

murray and the concert promoters are not trustworthy. do you seriosuly believe in what they say after all the lies/contradiction they've both told?



There's so much we still don't know, so we cannot answer. little bit of propofol??? I don't think a "little bit" of propofol would have caused it to appear in his eyes and stomach. I don't think a little bit of propofol would bring down a full grown bull elephant. And we can't forget the entire empty bottle of propfol which would mean Murray gave Michael 40x as much propofol than he admited, that's if it was used that night. Strange how one empty bottle would be found in a closet alone though....

I agree that's why I'm confused with he gave him a little bit.. what would a little bit do? it wouldn't accomplish the goal of putting MJ to sleep

 

[kasume]

^ I look at this using the conspiracy side as well. And only when you look at it that way things seem to make so much more sense.

But again, according to murrays story, he was trying to "wean michael off". so to help support that story, a little bit of propofol first would make sense, then comes all the other drugs he injected in to help michael sleep. that would explain well murray "trying" to put michael to sleep. and then the "begging for more propofol" comes up after and so on......

and u need to prove he used the spike method which seems difficult to me a bolus injection wouldnt need a pump?correct?

based on the ME's response, that's correct.

So, the 25mg that Murray claims to have given Michael would only equal a 1/2 teaspoon of liquid or 2.5ml, which would be impossible to administer ACCURATELY without using a syringe if you didn't have a IV pump present, which he did not

also, a syringe has numbers to measure.

Now here is that same nurse's theory (who has given propofol many times)

Murray did give the INITIAL induction dose via syringe but then after spiking and connecting the bottle of propofol to the mainline...

That is why this is just a theory of hers on WHEN the bolus injection was given. Because I just remembered, here is what anothor medical expert stated to me months ago. I would go with this story more as this ME not only has ties to people with firsthand knowlege of the investigation, but can work with coroners and investigators too.

Murray didn't move him at night-it was the morning of the 25th of June-after the full synergistic affect of all of the CNS depressant benzos-the respiratory distress to resp arrest-that led to full cardiac arrest which was almost immediately after the (LARGE) dosage IV bolus (push) of the Propofol had been administered-and on top of all of that nightmare-the 02 tank went empty during this whole macabre scenario.

So according to that person, looks like this bolus dose was the last thing given.

Back to the nurse....we were talking about 25 mg here, and she said...

For Michael, the induction dose should have been less than 20mg based on his weight, and then decreased even further based on what he had already been given.

•The bolus dose must not exceed the recommended bolus size.
http://www.rch.org.au/anaes/pain/index.cfm?doc_id=2251

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

where was the oximeter that Murray claimed he used to measure MJ's oxygen levels? if he was using an oximeter wouldn't he know that MJ wasn't breathing or that his breathing was shallow? And the whole 'weaning' him off doesn't make sense, since Murray was the only one giving it to him daily. Murray is acting like other doctors gave it to him regularly and he was trying to wean him off it, but he was the only one giving it to him. I seriously doubt if Murray will be able to find another one of MJ's doctors who will admit giving him propofol for a non-medical reason such as insomnia.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Quote:
For Michael, the induction dose should have been less than 20mg based on his weight, and then decreased even further based on what he had already been given.

KASUME: There must have been some missprint or sthg there. The average induction dose is 2 - 2,5mg/kg, which means at least more than 120mg as the recommended dose. (Sleep lasts for 5 to 10 minutes).

Another thing is the dose for repeated boluses to maintain sleep, which could be 10 - 20mg, every 5 to 10 minutes, according to this link:
http://www.uam.es/departamentos/medicina/anesnet/agenda/farmacologia/propofol.htm
(Though in other sites, they mention increments of "25 to 50mg".
http://www.anaesthesia-az.com/search/?itemId=3095665 )

-----------------------------

I find it peculiar the mention of the 25mg declared by Murray.

- Once I saw information about "conscious sedation" with propofol (used in combination with local anaesthesia) and the induction dose "0.2 -0.5mg/kg" (about 25mg) made me think if Murray declared that amount because the only medical equipment needed for it was an oximeter and "suplemental oxygen via nasal cannulae" (which he declared he had, though the oximeter was found in a closet in another room...). In the link, it's said: "Of particular importance, low-dose infusions of propofol have very little depressant effect on cardiovascular and respiratory variables . Nevertheless, monitoring of oxygen saturation is recommended and supplemental oxygen via nasal cannulae..."
http://www.eurosiva.org/Archive/Vienna/abstracts/Speakers/HOLAS.htm

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

KASUME: There must have been some missprint or sthg there. The average induction dose is 2 - 2,5mg/kg, which means at least more than 120mg as the recommended dose. (Sleep lasts for 5 to 10 minutes).

Another thing is the dose for repeated boluses to maintain sleep, which could be 10 - 20mg, every 5 to 10 minutes, according to this link:
http://www.uam.es/departamentos/medicina/anesnet/agenda/farmacologia/propofol.htm
(Though in other sites, they mention increments of "25 to 50mg".
http://www.anaesthesia-az.com/search/?itemId=3095665 )

-----------------------------

I find it peculiar the mention of the 25mg declared by Murray.

- Once I saw information about "conscious sedation" with propofol (used in combination with local anaesthesia) and the induction dose "0.2 -0.5mg/kg" (about 25mg) made me think if Murray declared that amount because the only medical equipment needed for it was an oximeter and "suplemental oxygen via nasal cannulae" (which he declared he had, though the oximeter was found in a closet in another room...). In the link, it's said: "Of particular importance, low-dose infusions of propofol have very little depressant effect on cardiovascular and respiratory variables . Nevertheless, monitoring of oxygen saturation is recommended and supplemental oxygen via nasal cannulae..."
http://www.eurosiva.org/Archive/Vienna/abstracts/Speakers/HOLAS.htm

what would be the point of giving MJ something that would 'put him to sleep' for 10 minutes? and why would Murray be putting him to sleep at 10:50 am when it was time for MJ to be getting up not going to sleep? and why suddenly did Murray have to pee after giving MJ the propofol dosage? The whole thing stinks to high heaven and Murray is a liar

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

There's no point in anything declared by Murray, that's the key point.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

There's no point in anything declared by Murray, that's the key point.

I guess you're right because he's told so many lies it's hard to declare anything that he says.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I remember Chernoff saying that Murray had no idea that he would be dealing with propofol. Does Chernoff think we're stupid? You mean to tell me a medical doctor took a job paying $150,000 per month not knowing what he's supposed to be doing?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

he didnt know he would be dealing with it yet had a meeting in march with that other dr and mj and ordered and had the stuff sent to him in may. yeap totally clueless!

murray and the concert promoters are not trustworthy. do you seriosuly believe in what they say after all the lies/contradiction they've both told?

i dont believe it was some big conpriacy to kill mj by AEG etc and murray was brought into do it as you are implying with the question. if u are going to post in this thread and section u need to stick to the facts as we have them and not some theory that supports a conspiracy. theres a section for that. this is for the facts of the case

So according to that person, looks like this bolus dose was the last thing given.

yeah from whats been said/read from the AR i think its given that the bolus was given and mj passed within minutes cause the amount was so high. theres another question though over the Loraz as i think soundmind mentioned that it showed that the loz was given after the bolus injection. anyone else got an opinion on that

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

he didnt know he would be dealing with it yet had a meeting in march with that other dr and mj and ordered and had the stuff sent to him in may. yeap totally clueless!



i dont believe it was some big conpriacy to kill mj by AEG etc and murray was brought into do it as you are implying with the question. if u are going to post in this thread and section u need to stick to the facts as we have them and not some theory that supports a conspiracy. theres a section for that. this is for the facts of the case



yeah from whats been said/read from the AR i think its given that the bolus was given and mj passed within minutes cause the amount was so high. theres another question though over the Loraz as i think soundmind mentioned that it showed that the loz was given after the bolus injection. anyone else got an opinion on that

So if that's the case it means that Murray lied about the iv drip. If he gave a bolus MJ would've died immediately so Murray saying he stood by his side for 10 minutes and then went to the bathroom sounds like a huge lie

 

[StacyJ]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101221/ap_en_ce/us_michael_jackson_doctor

Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

By ANTHONY McCARTNEY, AP Entertainment Writer Anthony Mccartney, Ap Entertainment Writer – 50 mins ago

LOS ANGELES – A judge overseeing the criminal case of a doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death has scheduled a hearing to determine if medical items found in the singer's bedroom should undergo more testing that defense attorneys contend is crucial to the case.

Attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray have been asking for months that fluids in two syringes and an IV bag found in Jackson's rented mansion be tested to determine how much of the anesthetic propofol and painkiller lidocaine they contained.

Coroner's officials ruled Jackson died of acute propofol intoxication.

Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will hear the testing arguments on Dec. 29 — six days before Murray is scheduled to appear for what is expected to be a lengthy, detailed preliminary hearing to determine if there is enough evidence for the cardiologist to stand trial.

Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter.

Murray's attorneys have struck an urgent tone regarding the need to test the medical items, saying the evidence is deteriorating. They have described the fluids in one of the syringes as having turned to "salt" and contended the testing should have been done after Jackson's death in June 2009.

Coroner's officials say in court filings the testing was not necessary to determine Jackson's cause of death.

Prosecutors have downplayed the significance and refused to enter into an agreement with Murray about testing the items.

The tests are likely to destroy the samples.

In a document filed Friday, coroner's officials laid out an experimental testing procedures they can use if Murray's motion is approved.

One of Murray's attorneys, J. Michael Flanagan, argued in a court filing the delay in testing the syringes might hurt the doctor's defense.

"An essential fact in this case is not only how much propofol was in Michael Jackson's body but how it was put into his body," Flanagan wrote. "Since further degradation and deterioration of the evidence makes it increasingly more difficult to test, the prejudice to the defendant is increasing."

A phone message left for district attorney's spokeswoman Sandi Gibbons was not immediately returned.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

Wrong section, my friend.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

Shouldn't be merged with "Urgent plea for testiing..."??


---------------

"An essential fact in this case is not only how much propofol was in Michael Jackson's body but how it was put into his body," Flanagan wrote.

Oh, my God! This lawyer wants to twist everything just for headlines only. He won't get anything besides that!

We have already discussed what Chernoff implied and the impossibility of such defence: there was no long tube found with traces of propofol, which proves that if there was continuous infusion (the "spiked" bottle), the long tube, together with the spiked bottle were removed from the scene ONLY by the person who prepared that infusion. Murray was alone and knew the full implications if the police found those items. That's why he removed them from the crime scene, which might be a way of obstructing the police action.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

Shouldn't be merged with "Urgent plea for testiing..."??

Yes.... > http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97411&page=7

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

how it was put there was by Murray.. Murray should know how it got into him because he was there and he did it

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

"An essential fact in this case is not only how much propofol was in Michael Jackson's body but how it was put into his body," Flanagan wrote. "Since further degradation and deterioration of the evidence makes it increasingly more difficult to test, the prejudice to the defendant is increasing."

Very predictable.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

Of course it is I have no defense so I will create one. I will blame the cops

 

[MJ~And~Me]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

i cant wait for it to be over:no::no::no:

 

[JMie]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

is there a possibility that Jan 4 hearing could be delayed due to this additional hearing?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

doubt it. its defence evidence not prosecution so not really connected


and there u go .his lawyers confirmed the TMZ article about what defence they will use. but has the testings of the amounts been a red herring? are they looking for finger prints on the tubing. cause theres no way whatever amounts left in the syringe etc will tell u what was originally in there

has it ever been documented what exactly was found at the scene or did alberto say what he saw. cause what exactly is the allegation from the defence. mj had a small iv in him was a needle connected to that IV while murray was in the toliet/on the phone? was a huge amount of diprivan left in the needle and was hangining out of the tubing? cause otherwise they are trying to say mj got up went and got a new bottle opened it up used the syringe to take out a measurement. claimbed back into bed and then self injected and fell back onto the bed. cause either murray was def and having the longest wee ever or its about as believeable as the tooth fairy

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

doubt it. its defence evidence not prosecution so not really connected


and there u go .his lawyers confirmed the TMZ article about what defence they will use. but has the testings of the amounts been a red herring? are they looking for finger prints on the tubing. cause theres no way whatever amounts left in the syringe etc will tell u what was originally in there

has it ever been documented what exactly was found at the scene or did alberto say what he saw. cause what exactly is the allegation from the defence. mj had a small iv in him was a needle connected to that IV while murray was in the toliet/on the phone? was a huge amount of diprivan left in the needle and was hangining out of the tubing? cause otherwise they are trying to say mj got up went and got a new bottle opened it up used the syringe to take out a measurement. claimbed back into bed and then self injected and fell back onto the bed. cause either murray was def and having the longest wee ever or its about as believeable as the tooth fairy

Murray's whole scenario is ridiculous and the fact remains that he left his patient alone under the influence of anesthesia which is negligent and reckless.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

of course. its a diversion tactic.everything is. but its all he has. the question is whether the judge allows it

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

Attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray have been asking for months that fluids in two syringes and an IV bag found in Jackson's rented mansion be tested to determine how much of the anesthetic propofol and painkiller lidocaine they contained.

i thought the lidocaine that was used was a cream that was placed around where the injection would be done. and once again they are going on about an IV bag. one wasnt found? correct?

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

i thought the lidocaine that was used was a cream that was placed around where the injection would be done. and once again they are going on about an IV bag. one wasnt found? correct?

I don't know.. all I know is Murray brought the iv bag and the syringes so he's the only one that knows what is in them

 

[kissybissy]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

I know what Murray lawyers want to prove. He wants to test the syringes and the IV bag so he can say that Michael injected himself with Propofol.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

i thought the lidocaine that was used was a cream that was placed around where the injection would be done. and once again they are going on about an IV bag. one wasnt found? correct?

They did find an IV bag with liquids to treat rehydration. That's why Murray was there every night eventhough he now wants everyone to believe he was there to give propofol .Either propofol is given via a bolus injection using a syringe or the propofol vial is directly hooked to the long section of an IV tube which is connected with the Y connector attached to the body , you can't mix propofol with other liquids in an IV bag, it is not given that way.

None of the drugs Murray gave to MJ that night could be mixed with other drugs or liguids.

 

[twinklEE]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

thx soundmind

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

They did find an IV bag with liquids to treat rehydration. That's why Murray was there every night eventhough he now wants everyone to believe he was there to give propofol .Either propofol is given via a bolus injection using a syringe or the propofol vial is directly hooked to the long section of an IV tube which is connected with the Y connector attached to the body , you can't mix propofol with other liquids in an IV bag, it is not given that way.

None of the drugs Murray gave to MJ that night could be mixed with other drugs or liguids.

So if that's the case then I'm confused. What is Murray trying to say then? is he admitting he mixed all the meds together? wouldn't that make him even more reckless?

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Judge to decide Jackson syringe testing issues

thx soundmind

welcome

So if that's the case then I'm confused. What is Murray trying to say then? is he admitting he mixed all the meds together? wouldn't that make him even more reckless?

No, he is not admiting anything. Re read what Flagan said, basically their plan is to later ask the judge to throw out the evidence collected from the scene and prevent the prosecution from using it at the trial , nothing more nothing less.