Jackson syringe testing issues - threads merged

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Very well explained. That'st why I said before that half a teaspoon could only be administered by syringe. Very interesting the explanation of the tube attached to the Y connector.
Thank you.

EDIT: to avoid misunderstandings 25mg are only used for conscious sedation.

just to clarify are you guys saying that 25mg is only half a teaspoon? if so he couldn't use a IV drip for half a teaspoon right? so that means he did it via bolus injection. Murray is just lying all over the place.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

what was the issue with the IV bag interms of what was found in it. what was stated about it in the police report and whats the defence issue with it?

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

what was the issue with the IV bag interms of what was found in it

don't know...

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

No, propofol was only found in the shorter (13,5 cm) IV tube and syringes, plus, obviously in the empty bottles on scene. But no drugs found in the IV bag.

above is from another board.

so i guess the defence want to re test and say diprivan was found so it supports murrays argument of an iv being used instead of bolus

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Nope it doesn't. Although propofol is not supposedly addictive. Do you think Dr Treacy will be testifying? Also do you think Dr Murray will honestly admit that he threw away his ethical obligation for money? Although we all know he did, I don't think that he will admit it. He will just say his goal was to just 'help' Michael, although he's a liar. What I don't understand is Murray's obligation to Michael was to find a safe method of treating his chronic insomniac patient but he chose this method. I hope every medical expert that testifies makes him feel absolutely horrible. Murray should've told AEG and anyone else that MJ suffered from chronic insomnia and should not be doing this tour until he gets better. At that time Murray should've referred his patient to a sleep specialist not pump him with drugs.

Dr. Treacy said he will be testifying (which is why I fear for him) and he said that's the reason he doesn't want to say to much right now.

If Murray says his goal was to help Michael, then why were his actions not helping Michael? I don't believe there is a such thing as a stupid doctor. They all have to pass that final exam. And you have to be smart to pass that. It's strange that even though murray wasn't an anesthesiologst, this cardiologist knew to use lidocaine when administering propofol since it brings pain on injection, and he knew to use a y connector since normal saline isn't even compatible with propofol. But this cardiologist didn't know that his patient could die from leaving him alone with limited oxygen.

We don't know if Michael suffered from chronic insomnia during these rehearsals. Do you have any proof of that? Hell, we don't even know if Michael actually asked for propofol from this man! (and that goes back to Treacy's experience with Michael and propofol).

just to clarify are you guys saying that 25mg is only half a teaspoon? if so he couldn't use a IV drip for half a teaspoon right? so that means he did it via bolus injection

The evidence collected at the scene, did NOT prove that he ONLY gave a bolus dose via syringe

so you may be correct, but this is not the ONLY thing he gave

 

[kissybissy]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Back then when he was treated by Treacy he wasn't under severe stress. He was not going to perform 50 concerts after a long period away from the stage. If he wasn't able to sleep he wouldn't have energy to perform those concerts. Not sure if the Propofol was his idea or not, but in the end it was what he was using to sleep. It's easy to take a dangerous move when you are under severe pressure like he was. We do not think about the consequences and the danger that goes around with it.

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Back then when he was treated by Treacy he wasn't under severe stress. He was not going to perform 50 concerts after a long period away from the stage. If he wasn't able to sleep he wouldn't have energy to perform those concerts. Not sure if the Propofol was his idea or not, but in the end it was what he was using to sleep. It's easy to take a dangerous move when you are under severe pressure like he was. We do not think about the consequences and the danger that goes around with it.

Again, we don't even know if Michael had trouble sleeping during these rehearsals. Again, where is the proof?

Dr. Treacy has already admitted to being offered HUGE sums of $$$ (five to six figures) to say lies about Michael.

Here is a doctor saying that. I wouldn't be surprised if other doctors have been offered huge sums of $$$ to say lies about him too.

Since when is Michael Jackson under severe pressure to perform???? He didn't look under stress to me. In fact, I personally felt that he wasn't.

It's easy to take a dangerous move? As if Michael would ever easily put his children in danger of losing their only parent!:doh: If you want to talk about severe pressure, then let's go back to the 2005 trial when even his children knew that something was wrong with his health. AND MICHAEL WAS NOT USING PROPOFOL TO SLEEP.

One last thing, Michael KNEW about the consequences and dangers of drugs. Which is why there is a note of him demanding a drug that isn't addictive, which is why Dr. Treacy said Michael wouldn't take propofol without a proper doctor. Michael would spend hundreds of dollars on medical books. He wanted to know about everything that was given to him. Michael was not some clueless drug addict/risk taker. If you truly knew Michael, you would know that isn't him. He was intelligent and loved to be informed of what was given him.

Knowing Michael, drugs was one of the last things I would have expected him to pass away from. Although, I did fear murder or some kind of poison or set up.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

just to clarify are you guys saying that 25mg is only half a teaspoon? if so he couldn't use a IV drip for half a teaspoon right? so that means he did it via bolus injection. Murray is just lying all over the place.

Each ml of the emulsion (Diprivan bottle) contains 10mg of propofol.

CM declared he had administered 25mg propofol =2.5ml emulsion.

A teaspoonful is about 5ml (or g, more common to most of us). So half a teaspoonful could have hardly been administered by drip, as it was explained by kasume.

We all know CM gave MJ much more than what he declared, but even what he declared was inconsistent.

------------------
BTW: I saw on an interview to Cherilyn Lee, that the reporter kept saying "IV drip", and the nurse always said "IV" only. My question is: could it be possible that American people use "drip" in general to refer to the IV device or system?
PS: Please, be patient, there's the additional struggling with the language

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Murray is a medical doctor and is far from stupid. I bet he would have never given anyone else propofol to sleep no matter who they were. I just want to see him get on the stand and say that he thought it would be safe for sleep. He will lose his medical license if he admits to that.

 

[kissybissy]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

If he was not using Propofol to sleep what for he was using the drug? I don't see any other use for Propofol other than to sleep.

Again, we don't even know if Michael had trouble sleeping during these rehearsals. Again, where is the proof?

Dr. Treacy has already admitted to being offered HUGE sums of $$$ (five to six figures) to say lies about Michael.

Here is a doctor saying that. I wouldn't be surprised if other doctors have been offered huge sums of $$$ to say lies about him too.

Since when is Michael Jackson under severe pressure to perform???? He didn't look under stress to me. In fact, I personally felt that he wasn't.

It's easy to take a dangerous move? As if Michael would ever easily put his children in danger of losing their only parent!:doh: If you want to talk about severe pressure, then let's go back to the 2005 trial when even his children knew that something was wrong with his health. AND MICHAEL WAS NOT USING PROPOFOL TO SLEEP.

One last thing, Michael KNEW about the consequences and dangers of drugs. Which is why there is a note of him demanding a drug that isn't addictive, which is why Dr. Treacy said Michael wouldn't take propofol without a proper doctor. Michael would spend hundreds of dollars on medical books. He wanted to know about everything that was given to him. Michael was not some clueless drug addict/risk taker. If you truly knew Michael, you would know that isn't him. He was intelligent and loved to be informed of what was given him.

Knowing Michael, drugs was one of the last things I would have expected him to pass away from. Although, I did fear murder or some kind of poison or set up.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

what was the issue with the IV bag interms of what was found in it. what was stated about it in the police report and whats the defence issue with it?

I think Associated Press made a mistake when wrote "IV bag" instead of the short section of the tube attached to the Y connector.

Arguing that evidence is deteriorating, defense lawyers for the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death are seeking urgent testing of two syringes and an IV bag found (...)
Quantities of substances in the syringes and IV bag could be crucial to explaining how the singer died, the lawyers said at the Tuesday hearing.

CM defence wants values, quantities of propofol, and as you said, prop. was not found in the IV bag.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I think Associated Press made a mistake when wrote "IV bag" instead of the short section of the tube attached to the Y connector.



CM defence wants values, quantities of propofol, and as you said, prop. was not found in the IV bag.

how can they get the quantities since everything was injected in MJ? this is confusing

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Yes, that's why the DA considered it irrelevant.

 

[kissybissy]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The amount of Propofol injected in Michael was showed by the autopsy. As Murray cannot say the autopsy is not reliable, he's using the argument that Michael injected himself with the drug in an attempt to take responsibility off his shoulders.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Yes, that's why the DA considered it irrelevant.

right.. that's what I thought.. all of the quantities were in MJ. MJ is the evidence of what was injected. There was no one else in that room but Murray and he was the one that brought the ivs and everything else in his own medical bag so he knows what was in those iv's because he put them there.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The amount of Propofol injected in Michael was showed by the autopsy. As Murray cannot say the autopsy is not reliable, he's using the argument that Michael injected himself with the drug in an attempt to take responsibility off his shoulders.

Right.. but if Murray goes with this scenario then he's saying he left his patient alone and wasn't paying attention which is negligent. We all know he wasn't paying attention because he was chit chatting on the phone for 47 minutes and then he also outted himself when he claims he 'discovered' Jackson not breathing. Why did he have to 'discover' that when he should've been monitoring him?

 

[MJ~And~Me]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

hes got to go down he just has to

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

this is something else the ME added. i might get her on this board to help us a bit. she said she would be happy to help.

Theory..Murray did give the INITIAL induction dose via syringe but then after spiking and connecting the bottle of propofol to the mainline, he utilized the roller clamp on the short set and attempted to simply "eyeball" the drip rate to facilitate continued sedation. I believe he had been doing this all along, hence the enormous disparity between his "usual dosage" claim, and the actual 4600 mg of missing drug discovered at the scene. Even if you were to double the dosage he claims from 50mg to 100mg x 42 events of administration, it's still 500mg less than the 4600mg total.

Also, logic should tell us that unless bottles and vials of ALL given medications during that 6 week time period were saved for whatever reason and present at the scene, that not all of the bottles of propofol that were used during the prescribed time period were present at the scene either.

Sadly, we should expect that when and if Dr. Murray ever admits to the true method of the delivery of those medications, specifically the propofol, we must also expect then that the defense will propose the accidental self administration of the overdose by Michael himself. The scenario that I imagine them to paint will be Michael waking to find Dr. Murray not present and in frustration, and after watching Murray do it many times over, simply attempting to adjust the roller clamp himself resulting in a rapid infusion and therefore a subsequent rapid loss of consciousness leading to respiratory and ultimately cardiac arrest before Dr. Murray returned to the room.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

connecting the bottle of propofol to the mainline, he utilized the roller clamp on the short set and attempted to simply "eyeball" the drip rate to facilitate continued sedation.

whats a roller clamp. and this theory doesnt go with the case of a bolus injection. there was no drip feed as the evidence from the sceen shows

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Evidence shows that bolus wasn't the only way propofol was given. That's why I think it's good to discuss the medical aspect of the investigation with someone who actually deals with all this, (propofol and such). Someone who deals with this on a regular basis would be of great help. we didn't even know what a roller clamp was...had to look it up myself.

roller clamp - a device, usually made of plastic, equipped with a small roller that may be rolled counterclockwise to close off primary IV tubing or clockwise to open it. The roller clamp may also be manipulated to increase and decrease the flow of the IV solution and is easily moved with the thumb, thus making it a one-handed convenience in the administration of IV therapy.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/roller+clamp

image
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=tsgLTdbNJIqr8AaQ-JGADg&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAA
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=8MULTfe1EcWt8AaDuISMDg&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAg

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I am confused.. what's the difference between a bolus and a spike? and all of this is just sad.. I can't believe a doctor, a medical professional, would do this to a man that didn't need it. Mike wasn't sick and he didn't have cancer, so why the hell would Murray do this to him. Mike needed help with sleeping and Murray knew this wasn't the answer but he did it anyway. I feel like crying just reading that crap

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Strange how Michael needed sleep and yet he was going to fire this doctor by the time he actually has to do his concerts.....the main reason he "needed" this guy in the first place.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Evidence shows that bolus wasn't the only way propofol was given.

u mean the below? it was either done bolus or via the spike route? either way is negligent

There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing. The second way is by using a spike -- which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I am confused.. what's the difference between a bolus and a spike?

The tear could be critical evidence. There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing. The second way is by using a spike -- which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

Dr. Dombrowski says if a spike is used to connect the bottle directly to the IV tube, the doctor must use an infusion pump to regulate the flow of Propofol -- otherwise, the patient could easily OD. There was no infusion pump found in Jackson's home.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

Strange how Michael needed sleep and yet he was going to fire this doctor by the time he actually has to do his concerts.....the main reason he "needed" this guy in the first place.

we dont have direct evidence of that yet. its mere speculation

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

So Murray obviously didn't have an infusion pump. So is his response that he just didn't need it because he was watching him?? I can't wait to get this case going. I bet my life Murray won't take the stand in his defense. I bet he is regretting even talking to the police because he basically told them he was negligent

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

So Murray obviously didn't have an infusion pump.

correct. there wasnt one in the house. i guess he will say he didnt need one cause he was injecting such a tiny amount. and u need to prove he used the spike method which seems difficult to me a bolus injection wouldnt need a pump?correct? but then in itself a bolus injection is dangerous aswell. so tbh hes in the s*** which ever argument he goes with. ones more negligent than the other but they are both negligent. i guess its down to murray saying i didnt need all the equipement cause i was only giving him a tiny amount as soundmind says

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

The whole tiny amount confuses me. A tiny amount according to the anesthesiologist would not put MJ to sleep let alone kill him, so what would be the purpose of the tiny amount if it wouldn't put MJ to sleep? The professionals say the amount that Murray alleged would not have done anything so what exactly was Murray doing? did he think that cocktail along with a little bit of propofol would actually help MJ?

 

[kasume]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

^ this is heading towards conspiracy.....so I won't get much into it.

A small amount given at any time during that night could help Murray in his story that "he was trying to wean Michael off". Maybe it was given on purpose. That to me, makes good sense if this was all planned to look like an accident. Things like this are planned by the very detail.

we dont have direct evidence of that yet. its mere speculation

so is the claiming that Michael needed that propofol to sleep during this time.

murray and the concert promoters are not trustworthy. do you seriosuly believe in what they say after all the lies/contradiction they've both told?

did he think that cocktail along with a little bit of propofol would actually help MJ?

There's so much we still don't know, so we cannot answer. little bit of propofol??? I don't think a "little bit" of propofol would have caused it to appear in his eyes and stomach. I don't think a little bit of propofol would bring down a full grown bull elephant. And we can't forget the entire empty bottle of propfol which would mean Murray gave Michael 40x as much propofol than he admited, that's if it was used that night. Strange how one empty bottle would be found in a closet alone though....

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Urgent plea for testing Jackson items

I don't understand the 25mg which would've left Mike sedated for 10 minutes. What kind of sleep is that?