Jackson syringe testing issues - threads merged

[Soundmind]

a short set would be unnecessary altogether for a one time bolus injection because you only need an additional IV setup if you "spike" a bag, or in this case, a bottle of propofol. If he had no intention of "spiking" the bottle and then running it as a continuous drip, there are ports present in the mainline IV setup for syringe injections to be given and he would not have used a second set.

what the hell was that? what short set is he/she talking about?

How would you explain the "spiked" bottle then and the quote above? And Dr. Dombrowski's article was being discussed...w

EMPTY one, where did that huge amount of propofol disappear tell me ? I'm 1000000% sure from the toxicology report MJ did not receive anything close to that amount that night . so how do you explain that?
Did that asshole doctor after reading the toxicology report tell TMZ Murray basically lied about everything regarding the administration of lorazepan ? Did he tell them the amount of propofol in his urine indicate a relatively very small amount of propfol and no excessive use prior to death? if he did not do that then he is just another attention seeking whore.

Murray used the injection ports in that second set for the induction dose.

what second sets for God's sake?! and now we finally know what Murray's explanation will be for those particular syringes.!!!

NO. Your words remind me of those published in the article "Death from propofol: accident... murder?". In the first case reported of murder with propofol, the items (syringes, vials of propofol, etc) were found in bags adjacent to garbage cans. The article says: "There was no way the victim could have self-injected propofol, gathered all the drug vials and injection paraphernalia into garbage bags, walked outside to dispose of the materials, come back inside and then collapsed on her bed." The same applies here. Who moved the spiked bottle??? Who bought everything? Who cleared the crime scene? Who told endless lies to the police? Murray.

That's why he came back two days later armed with a top lawyer and was "reading a script". That's why he asked Alvarez to remove everything from the scene so ALVAREZ'S fingerprints would be all over the evidence and he would blame any "missing" removed evidence on Alvarez ....etc Just keep in mind Murray is not charged with covering up or cleaning the scene for one particular reason : ALVAREZ .If the prosecution did not eliminate MJ scientifically as a possible "suspect" Murray will walk free even if the prosecution are able to introduce endless list of evidence incriminating Murray.

NO. The coroner said: "Circumstances indicate that propofol and the benzodiazepines were administered BY ANOTHER.The circumstances do not support self-administration of propofol". (signed on 19th August after taking into account the Anesthesiology Consultation signed on 3rd August and that you insist so much on giving it another different meaning to the one the coroner gave).

Yes I insist the expert did state it was given via bolus injection and that's why the coroner ruled it as homicide.

IF a continuous infusion was given, IT WAS ONLY ADMINISTERED BY MURRAY!!!

NO, IF a continuous infusion was given MJ could have done it himself and Murray will be cleared no doubt about that and that Chinese male nurse case is a very well documented case of this scenario. Explain to me how could the prosecution eliminate MJ as a possible suspect? HOW?

NO, read better please

yes you did. I did a research on that particular case you had mentioned before and found out the Chinese male nurse committed suicide hooking himself to an IV drip and received almost 2400 mg of propofol but the HUGE difference between that case and MJ's case was the propofol levels in his urine which did indicate an excessive abuse of propofol prior to death UNLIKE MJ.

BE RESPECTFUL PLEASE. I'm not desperate to prove anything. If anything, a continuous infusion would prove it wasn't homicide, BUT MURDER.

R U Beachlover? no it would only mean MJ could have done it himself that's why Murray told them he gave it via an IV drip .

 

[smoothlugar]

yes you did. I did a research on that particular case you had mentioned before and found out the Chinese male nurse committed suicide hooking himself to an IV drip and received almost 2400 mg of propofol

You are completely wrong.
The case I mentioned in post #44 (only to compare the femoral concentration level) is Case 2 in the article "Death from Propofol: accident... Murder?" and no nationality is mentioned, it wasn't by IV drip, and the sequential IV doses totalled 1600mg. Nothing to do with what you are implying I meant.


That case (post #44) is irrelevant, but I'm pointing it out to show you how fast and mistakenly you can get at your own conclusions

I haven´t finished reading your post but I won't reply to it. There's no point. You want to be right at any cost. The main issues have already been discussed and the preliminary is near.

R U Beachlover?

I do considere rather offensive this addressing me with another's username. That's one more absolute wrong mistake of yours and you should provide an apology or sort of rectification. If you won't, remember anyone could say the same in relation to you.


Please, mods I'd appreciate your opinions.

 

[smoothlugar]

R U Beachlover? [/SIZE]

This is a false accusation. You should retract your words.

If you won't, anyone could also say or think the same about you. (Sthg pointless and childish).

I insist, please moderators, are these types of false accusations going to be tollerated??

 

[ivy]

please stop attacking other members and just discuss the issue

 

[elusive moonwalker]

This is the first I am hearing about lidocaine or was it mentioned before?

i always thought it was written in the reports as a cream that is put around the area of injection cause of the burning sensention. first time im reading that they are saying it was a fluid:scratch:i dunno.so much of this info is well over a year old u lose track

 

[elusive moonwalker]

is there anywhere that we can read the prosecutions motion?

 

[artik]

I remember reading that propofol was diluted with lidocaine.

 

[smoothlugar]

this is something else the ME added. i might get her on this board to help us a bit. she said she would be happy to help.

(...)That's why I think it's good to discuss the medical aspect of the investigation with someone who actually deals with all this, (propofol and such). Someone who deals with this on a regular basis would be of great help. we didn't even know what a roller clamp was...had to look it up myself.

roller clamp - a device, usually made of plastic, equipped with a small roller that may be rolled counterclockwise to close off primary IV tubing or clockwise to open it. The roller clamp may also be manipulated to increase and decrease the flow of the IV solution and is easily moved with the thumb, thus making it a one-handed convenience in the administration of IV therapy.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/roller+clamp

image
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=tsgLTdbNJIqr8AaQ-JGADg&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAA
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=8MULTfe1EcWt8AaDuISMDg&ved=0CCkQ9QEwAg

Thanks for the info.

 

[kasume]

Soundmind, someone told me that YOU were beachlover.....I'm not making assumptions. I'm just mentioning what someone else told me.

what does it matter??....I like the name beachlover

anyways, speaking of these syringes being tested, check this out...this is from the medical analysis posted in a different thread

[why was the same syringe used to administer Flumazenil & Propofol? This could affect Flumazenil’s effectiveness]

3- Propofol, Lidocain, Flumazenil were detected in approximately 0.47 g of yellow tinted fluid from a short section of IV tubing attached to a Y connector
[1st the fact that the fluid is yellow tinted is an indication of presence of a forth agent that is not mentioned here, otherwise the color of this mixture must remain milky white or off white; 2nd if Flumazenil was administered to slow down & reverse the depression of respiratory & cardiac systems, it should have administered separately & not through the same IV tubing, as it would have began interaction with the residue already present in the IV tubing before reaching the blood & it wouldn’t be as effective.]

 

[Soundmind]

Soundmind, someone told me that YOU were beachlover.....I'm not making assumptions. I'm just mentioning what someone else told me.

what does it matter??....I like the name beachlover

anyways, speaking of these syringes being tested, check this out...this is from the medical analysis posted in a different thread

No, I'm Oceangirl, I've been a member of MJ fan clubs since 2002 , spent almost ten hours daily on KOP discussion board prior and during the trial obviously cus I was preparing to test theories for Murray's defense in 2010 :smilerolleyes: . I forgot the email address I used to create my Oceangirl account and my password.

[why was the same syringe used to administer Flumazenil & Propofol? This could affect Flumazenil’s effectiveness]

3- Propofol, Lidocain, Flumazenil were detected in approximately 0.47 g of yellow tinted fluid from a short section of IV tubing attached to a Y connector
[1st the fact that the fluid is yellow tinted is an indication of presence of a forth agent that is not mentioned here, otherwise the color of this mixture must remain milky white or off white;
2nd if Flumazenil was administered to slow down & reverse the depression of respiratory & cardiac systems, it should have administered separately & not through the same IV tubing, as it would have began interaction with the residue already present in the IV tubing before reaching the blood & it wouldn’t be as effective.]

well , it's not like there was any flumazinel in MJ's system . where did the flumazenil disappear? The toxicology report did not state they found any flumazenil in MJ's system. Was it there for show purposes only ?! if MJ survived until they reached the hospital 43 minutes after the paramedics arrived at the house, flumazenil should have been detected in MJ's system, right?

 

[Soundmind]

is there anywhere that we can read the prosecutions motion?

yeah please if someone know where post a link.

I remember reading that propofol was diluted with lidocaine

yes that's the usual procedure when propofol is given.

So now from what flagan said MJ not only injected himself with propofol but also made sure to get lidocaine before ? wow? And above that he passed away even before Murray enetered the room all that within two minutes lol how convenient !!!!!

 

[Soundmind]

(AP) – 2 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The defense for the doctor facing trial for involuntary manslaughter in Michael Jackson's death will suggest the singer actually killed himself, a prosecutor said during a hearing Wednesday.

"I do think it's clear the defense is operating under the theory that the victim, Michael Jackson, killed himself," said Deputy District Attorney David Walgren.

"They don't want to say it but that's the direction in which they are going."

The statement came at a hearing where a lawyer for Dr. Conrad Murray clashed with the prosecutor over who should test residue from two syringes found in Jackson's bedroom.

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan declined to comment on any theories of defense outside court and said lawyers were still investigating the case.

A preliminary hearing is scheduled to begin Jan. 4 after which Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will decide if there is sufficient evidence to hold Murray for trial. The issue of residue in the syringes is unlikely to be brought up in that hearing, attorneys said.

Jackson died on June 25, 2009, of what was later found to be acute Propofol intoxication, with other sedatives found to have been a contributing factor.

But Flanagan told Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor that a huge amount of the anesthetic Propofol — possibly 150 milligrams — would have had to be present in Jackson's body to reach the level that killed him. He noted that Dr. Murray has said he gave him only 25 milligrams of the drug along with small amounts of benzodiazopines — sedative drugs — to help him sleep.

There have been suggestions that during a brief period when Murray left the room Jackson, possibly desperate for sleep, could have injected himself with more of the Propofol.

Flanagan said a broken syringe was found on the bedroom floor in addition to a syringe in an intravenous medication bag. He said a fingerprint found on the broken syringe hasn't been identified.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...61fa66c84a4149


That's what I've been saying for months. MJ did not overdose on propofol , what caused his death was a rapid injection of a NORMAL propofol dosage enough to induce and then maintain sleep (general anesthesia) . So now would some members stop claiming MJ recieved 1000 mg + that night?

Scientifically 1+1 could only equal 2 same applies to the propofol concentration found in MJ's urine . the 0.10 propofol concentration of the 450 ml urine found in his bladder has one explanation only; in the last 10 hours of his life MJ received no more than 200 mg of propofol , that's what science says, end of argument.

Normally 200 mg does not cause death , but there were cases of it being deadly if given rapidly. The cause of death was a side effect ( respiratory failure ) caused by a rapid BOLUS injection of a normal propofol dose .

 

[StacyJ]

yeah please if someone know where post a link.



yes that's the usual procedure when propofol is given.

So now from what flagan said MJ not only injected himself with propofol but also made sure to get lidocaine before ? wow? And above that he passed away even before Murray enetered the room all that within two minutes lol how convenient !!!!!

it's absolutely insane isn't? Maybe Murray is going to change the timeline again and admit he was gone longer than 2 minutes. If he sticks with the 2 minutes it's really asinine

 

[StacyJ]

(AP) – 2 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The defense for the doctor facing trial for involuntary manslaughter in Michael Jackson's death will suggest the singer actually killed himself, a prosecutor said during a hearing Wednesday.

"I do think it's clear the defense is operating under the theory that the victim, Michael Jackson, killed himself," said Deputy District Attorney David Walgren.

"They don't want to say it but that's the direction in which they are going."

The statement came at a hearing where a lawyer for Dr. Conrad Murray clashed with the prosecutor over who should test residue from two syringes found in Jackson's bedroom.

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan declined to comment on any theories of defense outside court and said lawyers were still investigating the case.

A preliminary hearing is scheduled to begin Jan. 4 after which Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will decide if there is sufficient evidence to hold Murray for trial. The issue of residue in the syringes is unlikely to be brought up in that hearing, attorneys said.

Jackson died on June 25, 2009, of what was later found to be acute Propofol intoxication, with other sedatives found to have been a contributing factor.

But Flanagan told Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor that a huge amount of the anesthetic Propofol — possibly 150 milligrams — would have had to be present in Jackson's body to reach the level that killed him. He noted that Dr. Murray has said he gave him only 25 milligrams of the drug along with small amounts of benzodiazopines — sedative drugs — to help him sleep.

There have been suggestions that during a brief period when Murray left the room Jackson, possibly desperate for sleep, could have injected himself with more of the Propofol.

Flanagan said a broken syringe was found on the bedroom floor in addition to a syringe in an intravenous medication bag. He said a fingerprint found on the broken syringe hasn't been identified.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...61fa66c84a4149


That's what I've been saying for months. MJ did not overdose on propofol , what caused his death was a rapid injection of a NORMAL propofol dosage enough to induce and then maintain sleep (general anesthesia) . So now would some members stop claiming MJ recieved 1000 mg + that night?

Scientifically 1+1 could only equal 2 same applies to the propofol concentration found in MJ's urine . the 0.10 propofol concentration of the 450 ml urine found in his bladder has one explanation only; in the last 10 hours of his life MJ received no more than 200 mg of propofol , that's what science says, end of argument.

Normally 200 mg does not cause death , but there were cases of it being deadly if given rapidly. The cause of death was a side effect ( respiratory failure ) caused by a rapid BOLUS injection of a normal propofol dose .

The prosecution knows this correct? that's why they're saying Murray gave it via bolus right?

 

[smoothlugar]

There's no way they can get any feasable defence, whatever they invent, it will remain that, pure invention.

As it was said before, if the defence had resorted to the “via IV drip” administration, Murray would have been more incriminated.

So now they're resorting to the self-administration theory via a syringe, which is equally BS…(preparation for the administration of lidocaine included)

To start with, even for the 25mg that Murray falsely alleges, the oxygen tank should not have been empty!!!

---------------------------------
As for the urine in the bladder tested (550 grams (p.17AR) and 0.15ug/ml (p 50AR), I don’t know whether this only result can be so conclusive to determine the approximate total amount of propofol being administered by Murray.I suppose other indicators, like the concentration in the vitreous or the blood will also be important.

My initial idea was that since propofol metabolizes so fast, anesthesiologists could only determine the estimated amount inmediately given prior to death, but not during the previous hours, (except, I suppose, if present circumstances- like empty bottles- suggest another bigger amount).
Any reliable source would be important here.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

along with small amounts of benzodiazopines

thought the amount of loz found was over 2x the amount murray claimed he gave. so i guess mj injected himself with that aswell.

"I do think it's clear the defense is operating under the theory that the victim,

glad hes using the word victim

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Here's a report of the actual hearing from Justice 4 MJ.
http://www.justice4m...ce-hearing.html
Quote
December 29 - Syringe and Evidence Hearing

Wednesday, December 29, 2010 at 1:43PM


December 29

Judge Pastor residing
9th floor
Los Angeles Superior Court
Clara Shortridge Foltz Criminal Justice Center

Defense attorney Mr. Flanagan presented his case regarding his request for a court order for testing on three pieces of evidence.
1- broken syringe found on floor with unknown fingerprint
1 - syringe
1 - IV tubing adjacent to bed.

Flanagan is interested in quantitative testing of lidocaine and propofol in syringes and tubing. Coroner only completed a qualitative testing, not quantity.

Presumably the quality of evidence remaining in tube has degraded and become diluted. One syringe is reported as having only salt. The syringe and IV have only small amounts of liquid evidence.

Flanagan insists on receiving all remaining evidence to conduct his tests to receive an accurate reading of quantity.

Flanagan also stated he never received the discovery pages of toxicology reports until July 6. This is when he states that he discovered that the testing of the quantity of the syringes and IV were not done. Prosecution later stated that Flanagan signed and received the discovery toxicology reports on Febuary 16, 8 days after arraignment. Flannagan was aware since February 16 that there was no quantitative tests done. Prosecution stated they never have objected to any testing being performed.

November 29 the court suggested attorneys get together and agree on a lab. judge stated in declaration from previous court haerings, the coroner stated that there was not enough liquid evidence to test for quantity.

Flanagan wanted his "friends" lab to do the testing with 100% remaining liquid evidence.

Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney David Walgren refused to give 100% of the liquid evidence for testing. This could be a way of destroying evidence and not giving accurate readings. Prosecution suggested they get half. Flanagan repeatedly requested 100% of the evidence.

The judge reprimanded Flanagan for lying about not receiving the papers on February 16. Judge stated he could only have 50% for testing at coroners office or personal lab. Judge Pastor agreed to rule for the coroners office to perform the test but the defense has to agree and acknowledge the declaration. Flanagan was blasting the coroners office that they did not perform their job. The judge was confused why defense would even want to use the coroners office for testing.

Flanagan stated it was "ludacris" to take only half. Not enough sample. He insists on having all remaining evidence in syringes and tubing for testing. But coroner has warned that testing may consume all remaining evidence samples when testing is performed.

Coroner only tests quality when its related to cause of death or manner of death.

The prosecution stated that defense was leading towards setting MIchael up for giving himself the overdose of propofol. Walgren also stated that they were aware that defense has been doing this for awhile.

The judge stated the defense can only have 50% to be tested. Judge also would allow the coroner to conduct the test if Murray's defense acknowledges they were notified of the "risks and limitations" associated with testing the sample evidence.

Judge Pastor stated that he would revisit the Medical Board of California's request to suspend Murray's license at the end of the preliminary hearing.

Conrad Murray waived his personal presence.

Both parties agreed that they were ready and prepared for January 4th preliminary Hearing. 9am-4:30pm with hour lunchbreak. Possibly two weeks. There will be an overflow courtroom each day.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

intresting that flanagan is already lieing about when he received the documents about the testing of the fluids.hes full of s*** judge seems half decent from this.not that its much to go on

 

[rainny]

Judge Pastor stated that he would revisit the Medical Board of California's request to suspend Murray's license at the end of the preliminary hearing..

Good.

 

[Ohood]

intresting that flanagan is already lieing about when he received the documents about the testing of the fluids.hes full of s*** judge seems half decent from this.not that its much to go on

another type of Sneddon and Co.

reading about the process of this case make me sick !