AliCat
Proud Member
As you can plainly see, by this Video, Gavin truly was sick with Cancer, Michael really did follow in Jesus' footsteps, in letting the little children come to him!
A confession from Jordan would create more of an impact than the arvizos because in '93 there was no trial.
Jackson also addressed Michael's 2005 child sex abuse trial.
"Well, you know that there was a reason why that happened," Jackson said. "They were trying to take control over Michael's life. Michael has paid out a lot of money, you know, what is it? Something like $22 million, you know, to keep this thing hushed down."
I notice also she stresses that Michael separates kid from family, kid ignores dad now, other mom tells June that Michael will drop her son as he did hers & that she wanted her son to record in Michael's studio (or something like that), so it seems they are trying to say that this is a deliberate ploy Michael has to make a child focus all the attention on him. I also notice that both women wanted Michael to give their family everything & they used their sons because they knew Michael liked children. So it seems to me that this was a character trait that people noticed about Michael, i.e., his love of children, and used it as a way to get favors from him. They could present their child for him to help & then use that as leverage to get Michael to help the whole family. I notice also that there is always a family attached to the children, & with the exception of the wealthier families, the families expected mega gifts like careers.
other mom tells June that Michael will drop her son as he did hers & that she wanted her son to record in Michael's studio (or something like that)
"When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?"
"Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn't be a crime."
"Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?"
"Because - that's a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people."
"How?"
"I don't know."
"Just your own guess."
"It could make me depressed or something, I don't know."
"Well, this is important. You say it's a crime. Why is it a crime?"
"Because, like I said before, he's using his experience, power, age - - "
"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"
"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."
However, I always wondered if this was the thing how Evan got Jordan support his plot: that they told him that Michael would soon "drop him" anyway, so at least they should get money out of this (the whole family seems pretty material to me, including Jordan). Actually, when Dr. Gardner asked Jordan how this alleged molestation could have hurt him, his answer is pretty odd:
What "pattern"? There wasn't any other accuser. So who told Jordan this?
“MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is using his age and experience and his money and his power to great advantage to Jordy.“
“MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that? 13 years old. There's no -- you know, and a [tape irregularity] just come into it? I ask you this: If Michael Jackson were just some 34-year-old person, would this be happening? No. He's got power, he's got money, he's got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening [tape irregularity] they've been seduced away from the family by power and by money.”
“MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same person without the power and the money, and they wouldn't even be talking to him. You know it and I know it. So for power and money and his image, June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because I've sat down and talked to him, and I've told him long before it came down to going this far –“
"You still wanted to go on the tour?"
"Yes, at the time."
"Why is that?"
"Because I was having fun. At the time, the things Michael was doing to me, they didn't affect me. Like, I didn't think anything was totally wrong with what he was doing since he was my friend, and he kept on telling me that he would never hurt me. But presently I see that he was obviously lying."
"You're saying you didn't realize it could hurt you? Is that what you're - - "
"I didn't see anything wrong with it."
"Do you see the wrong in it now?"
"Of course."
"What is wrong as you see it?"
"Because he's a grown-up and he's using his experience, of his age in manipulating and coercing younger people who don't have as much experience as him, and don't have the ability to say no to someone powerful like that. He's using his power, his experience, his age – his overwhelmingness - to get what he wants."
"When you say it could have hurt you, how could it have hurt you?"
"Everybody thinks what he was doing could hurt, otherwise it wouldn't be a crime."
"Okay, how could it hurt? As you see it, how could it hurt you?"
"Because - that's a touchy subject, I guess. It separates you from any other people."
"How?"
"I don't know."
"Just your own guess."
"It could make me depressed or something, I don't know."
"Well, this is important. You say it's a crime. Why is it a crime?"
"Because, like I said before, he's using his experience, power, age - - "
"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"
"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."
^ He was 13, but yes even Bill O'Reilly said he thought Jordan did not sound like a child.
I am learning that we have to be careful with the Dr. Gardner interview, because it seems that we do not have the official document from the doctor. The interview is discussed in All That Glitters, and it appears that a lot of the documents in that book is made up. One of the problems people have is that if the DA sent Jordan to the doctor, why would Ray have the interview? It would more likely be given to the DA, so if we cannot verify that a document comes from the DA, I am sort of reluctant to believe the disclosures in the document, if its only source is Chandler's book. It seems that Hughes even states in her book that some of the documents Ray shows have her initials but she did not type up the documents he shows & in some the attorney's signature is different.
Also, notice that Evans runs all over the TV claiming Michael molested Jordan, but when he had the opportunity to go to court and have Michael put in jail he hid. Why? Then I find out that Jordan was being interviewed by a social worker and then the police came in & stopped it, again Why? Did they know that Jordan was lying.
Then I am finding out that Chandler was asked to bring all his documents to the defense for the 05 trial, you know the documents he claimed he had & used for the book, & showed Michael molested Jordan, & he fought it claiming either that the documents could be found from other sources, they were not relevant to the case, then he hid behind the shield law & used Michael's defense protection which prevented the People from knowing he was subpenaed. Why would Chandler fight legally so he would NOT have to bring these documents, if they were legitimate and could stand being scrutinized by the defense?
Then we have Hughes suggesting that Jordan & family planned this in advance and Jordan practiced it, which brings me to the question of whether the dad simply made up the story that under that drug, Jordan admitted he was molested. Could it be that this was a part of the plot & that Jordan never admitted anything while under that drug. However, it seems that some feel that he was given the drug, but that the idea was planted in his mind before. I am on the fence about the drug, because it seems to me like a badly written script & we know that Jordan and dad wanted to be in the movies.
Petrarose;3776359 said:Then we have Hughes suggesting that Jordan & family planned this in advance and Jordan practiced it, which brings me to the question of whether the dad simply made up the story that under that drug, Jordan admitted he was molested. Could it be that this was a part of the plot & that Jordan never admitted anything while under that drug. However, it seems that some feel that he was given the drug, but that the idea was planted in his mind before. I am on the fence about the drug, because it seems to me like a badly written script & we know that Jordan and dad wanted to be in the movies.
"A newsman at KCBS-TV, in L.A., reported on May 3 of this year [1994] that Chandler had used the drug on his son, but the dentist claimed he did so only to pull his son's tooth and that while under the drug's influence, the boy came out with allegations."
Jordie and Evan met Mark at Evan's office at 8:30 AM. As it turned out, the x-rays showed that Jordie had no cavities, just the overretained baby tooth that was causing the permanent one underneath to come in crooked.
Evan cleaned his son's teeth while Mark set up his equipment, and when the boy was sedated Evan performed the thirty-second procedure. When Jordie was safely out of sedation, Mark packed up and left.
"That was great," Jordie said, fully awake. "I didn't feel a thing? Can we go eat now?"
"In a minute," Evan answered.
Jordie sat quietly in the chair while his father cleaned up around the operatory.
"Hey, Jordie," Evan said, trying to sound nonchalant. "Since this is our last day together, is there anything you want to tell me before we go?"
"Yeah," Jordie replied. (Evan prayed for a miracle.) "I'm thirsty."
"Uh, okay. You can get up and walk now. Go to the kitchen, there's some bottled water in the fridge."
Evan had waited all week for the right moment to talk to his son, but he was concerned that forcing him to speak before he was ready would drive him further away. The end result was that the right moment never came. Or that Evan had passed it up.
"I was standing there drinking, Oh, well, I guess that's it, he's not going to talk. But while he was out in the kitchen it hit me that I'd been taking the wrong approach. Here I was tiptoeing around him because Dr. Abrams has scared the hell out of me. But Jordie was about to go away with Michael for five months, so how much worse could it get! If he wasn't totally screwed up yet, going on tour was sure to finish the job. That realization changed my whole way of thinking. I could be as tough on him as I wanted. I had nothing to lose."
When Jordie came strolling back from the kitchen, Evan went on the attack. "Have a seat, and listen very carefully to what I'm about to say. Do you remember when you came over to the house I told you that if you lie to me I was going to destroy Michael?" Jordie nodded that he did. "Good. Keep that in mind, because I'm going to ask you a question. Do you care about Michael?"
"Yes," the boy answered.
'You could say you love him, right?"
"Yes."
"And you wouldn't want to hurt him?"
"No."
"Okay then, let me remind you of something. Remember I told you I bugged your bedroom?" Jordie nodded. "Well, I know everything you guys did, so you might as well admit it."
The boy remained silent, seemingly unimpressed by his father's strong arm approach. Sensing this, Evan quickly changed tack.
"Look, Jordie, lots of famous people are bisexual and nobody gives a shit. They're not embarrassed. It's sorta cool, in a way."
After ten minutes of meandering monologue Evan had elicited nothing from his son but a blank stare. Frustrated, he switched back to his original approach. "I'm going to give you one last chance to save Michael. If you lie to me, then I'm going to take him down in front of the whole world, and it'll be all your fault because you're the one person who could have saved him."
Nothing.
In his heart, Evan already knew the truth; he didn't need Jordie to confirm it. But he believed if his son could just hear himself say it, if he could just spurt it out quickly and painlessly like the tooth, it would release him from the prison in his mind. Without a plan, Evan began babbling away again, saying whatever came to mind in the hope of eventually hitting on something that would push a button in his son and free him.
"I know about the kissing and the jerking off, so you're not telling me anything I don't already know," Evan lied. "This isn't about me finding anything out. It's about lying. And you know what's going to happen if you lie. So I'm going to make it very easy for you. I'm going to ask you one question. All you have to do is say yes, or no. That's it. Lie and Michael goes down. Tell me die truth and you save him."
Jordie remained silent for what seemed to Evan a hopeless amount of time. Then, "Promise?"
"Have I ever lied to you?"
"No."
And I never will."
"You won't hurt Michael, right?"
"Right."
"And I don t want anyone to know. Promise me you won't ever tell anyone."
"I swear,no one."
"Okay. What's the question?"
"Did Michael touch your penis?"
Jordie hesitated. Then, almost inaudibly, he whispered "Yes."
Evan would press no further. He had heard all he needed to hear. He reached out and hugged his son, and Jordie hugged back, tight.
"We never talked about it again," Evan later told the L.A. district attorney. To Evan, the details didn't matter. "The prison walls had cracked and I was confident the rest would take care of itself."
Note: Jordan says Michael told him to keep things in a secret box, and he also says Michael said he could go to ‘juvenile hall’ if he revealed the abuse. (41)
"Yeah. In terms of did he make any threats?"
"I think he may have said, like, if you tell - - if people say 'Don't worry, just tell us, Michael will go to jail and nothing will happen to me you.' He said that wasn't true, and I could, like, go to juvenile hall or something."
"That he could go to jail but you'd go to juvenile hall?"
"Something like that."
"That he himself could go to jail?"
"I don't specifically remember. I'm almost positive though, that he said about juvenile hall. I'm almost positive he said that, but I do indeed remember that he said that he would go to jail, and that, like, I wouldn't get off Scott free."
"Did you believe that?"
"Well, I didn't really believe it at the time, and I definitely don't now. But at the time I didn't really believe it but I said, okay, whatever, and just went along with it."
"Because in public, when he’s with [Brett], they're very close together physically and verbally and relationship-wise. And if one were to observe things in public, how they acted to each other, one would come to that conclusion, that it was more then just a friendly relationship."
"What about trust of your mother? Do you think any trust of your mother has been affected?"
"Well, not because she, as people would say, she wanted to pimp me out. More because of maybe, I tried to tell her one time and she didn't believe me."
"When was that? Do you remember?"
"No."
LOL the hell?"He said there's nothing wrong with it. He would get me to do things and convince me that the things he was doing weren't wrong, because he would talk about people who levitate, you know, it was weird."
"How could this have left you? If this had gone on and not been interrupted, how could you have ended up?"
"According to his pattern, I believe he would have left me and, sort of dumped me, I guess you could call it. And I would be, sort of, a vegetable."
"Why a vegetable?"
"Because he would continue to do those things and I would have no knowing of what else is out there."
"Say that again. You wouldn't know what else is out there?"
"Right. Like, he didn't like it if I would want to call a girl or something. You know, I wouldn't know, like, there were other options."
Also, notice that Evans runs all over the TV claiming Michael molested Jordan, but when he had the opportunity to go to court and have Michael put in jail he hid.
If he did actually say that I COMPLETELY disagree! I mean really a sexual act just by sharing a freakin bed?! WTH?! As if a bed is only to have sex in! There is something called sleep people do on them too! SMH People thinking like that is the reason why MJ can't shake the allegations off til this day, no matter how much we dig for the truth and that's sad. Because it's something they wouldn't do and to them it don't look right so they wanna make something bigger out of it and that's is just wrong.An adult male unrelated to a young boy should not be sharing a bed with that boy when other beds are available, and he considered that a sexual act (it's in the interview).
"Gardener says the examiner must evaluate the accused (the alleged perpetrator) and the accuser (the accusing parent), as well as the child.
“Of course, these indicators for the child must not be considered in isolation from the indicators of the accuser and the alleged perpetrator. The examiner must consider all three parties and not come to any conclusions before assessing all three.”"
“The child who is fabricating sexual abuse generally does not describe fear of the alleged perpetrator and is usually free from tension in the perpetrator’s presence. . . . The child who has been genuinely abused will be quite fearful of the perpetrator.”
"Note: When Gardener sometimes interrupts the litany, Jordan either stops him, "Well, I’m getting to that” (16), or tries to go back to the litany: “Do you want me to describe what his room looked like?” (20) Here Gardener interrupts the litany, but Jordan ignores his question and just keeps reciting the litany: "Right. And he put his hand on my shorts and he said, 'Now doesn't that feel good.' And he rubbed up and down. And I said 'Yeah.'" "Did he masturbate you to orgasm, to climax?""Well, then he said, 'Well wait, it gets
even better,' and he put his hand under my shorts and masturbated me to the end." (34)"
bluetopez;3776705 said:Thanks for sharing what u read on Richard A. Gardener book, Jamba. Some real important things are pointed out to see the difference of true and false allegations.
The only thing I would disagree with that Gardener allegedly said is this statement If he did actually say that I COMPLETELY disagree! I mean really a sexual act just by sharing a freakin bed?! WTH?! As if a bed is only to have sex in! There is something called sleep people do on them too! SMH People thinking like that is the reason why MJ can't shake the allegations off til this day, no matter how much we dig for the truth and that's sad. Because it's something they wouldn't do and to them it don't look right so they wanna make something bigger out of it and that's is just wrong.
“Okay, I just wanted to get an idea when there was contact. See, in phase one, there was
nothing sexual, right?”
“That’s right, in phase one.”
“In phase two, we’re still talking about nothing sexual but there was contact with him as
human beings as opposed to the telephone. I would say, sleeping in bed, I'll call that sexual.
Some people might not but I would."
"Right, and I consider that too, and that's where it switched."
"Most people would consider it sexual to sleep in bed with a person. How long was the time
frame from the time you first saw him in the flesh, and the time you slept in bed with him?"
"I don't know."