Latest on MJJC

KJ vs AEG - Appeal Thread

Let’s talk about what else the jury didn’t get a chance to do. They didn’t get a chance to hear that the Jackson’s wanted in on the TII tours. They didn’t get to hear how badly the Jackson’s were pressuring Michael through Mother to go on a much more grueling tour with them. They didn’t get to probe into the siblings finances and their past dealings as to how they affected MJ. There is plenty the jury didn't get to do that would have helped AEG more than it would have Mother but no one is crying about that.

This needs to be repeated again. Thank you Bubs:-It was revealed in court today, that the Jackson family tried to obtain a settlement from AEG Live last January and March and had not yet even received a reply.

-According to the LA Times, Kevin Boyle, an attorney for the Jackson family, said that AEG has not offered to settle “and they haven’t apologized.”

I don't blame Michael for anything. I blame his doctor who was charged to DO NO HARM!!!
-Kevin Boyle for the Jackson family would not provide details but said AEG’s insurance would have paid, “which means they could have settled the case without them paying a dime of their own money.”

Marvin Putnam, an attorney for AEG, said it was inappropriate to discuss settlement discussions. “We don’t settle matters that are utterly baseless,” he said. “We believe that is the case in this matter. I can’t see why we would consider a settlement as anything other than a shakedown.”
This clearly shows Mother was interested only in money not getting justice for Michael which any other real and decent mother would have done

I CAN'T GET AROUND THE FACT THAT THE MOTHER WAS SUPER SHADY. :big_boss:

The facts are that Michael was on the verge of bankruptcy himself. Does that make him a bad, unethical person? Millions of American's have declared bankruptcy. Should employers hold that against them and never give them a job again?

The facts are AEG didn't want Murray because he was asking for way too much money but Michael said he wanted him and firmly stood his ground.

The facts are Michael was sick one (1) day at work out of all the months he prepared for the tour and that was 5 days before his death. His autopsy showed he wasn't sick at time of death he was killed with Propofol. Those are the facts and KJ doesn't have a case no matter how many times she appeals.

I don't blame Michael I blame his doctor who was governed by a medical oath to DO NO HARM and I blame mother for not going after him because the price wasn't right.

MJ hired Tohme but let's not forget who brought Tohme into Michael's life. It was Jermaine.
 
Last edited:
It would be nice if people also read trial transcripts from CM trial so they have full picture of what happened.

I find it interesting that when it suit to people's own stand about trial or what way they think, they say AEG should not have controlled Michael's rehearsals, money, what he eats or what he does, but when comes to his own doctor, AEG should have controlled who is MJ's doctor?
MJ was 50 year old person with his own mind and hired his own staff. He wanted CM, and he got CM and paid extremely high price for it.
 
@ Victory
- MJ was on the verge of bankruptcy (or in financial trouble) which is a fact that AEG took advantage of. It is a fact that Tohme, working with Randy, took advantage of. It is plain as day based on the contract.
- MJ wanted Murray, but that is not even the point. the point is that AEG put him under their employment (just as they put Karen Faye under their employment), and it is their responsibility to make sure that Murray was doing his job that they hired him for. And they didn't. Again, all of the ultimatums that prove that Phillips knew something was amiss. The fact that Murray asked for a bunch of medical equipment and this was ignored (and its not even the fact that they didn't want to pay for it. It could be just a matter of asking WHY the heck murray would even NEED all of that equipment). Its negligence. They had the power to hire and fire Murray. Not MJ, whether MJ requested him or not.
-MJ was sick to the point of rambling, getting chills and barely knowing what was going on for ONE DAY, yes (and those are NOT symptoms you just catch out of no where!). And afterwards, there were points where he was visibly spent and tired and on the 24th he got the chills again. So it wasn't just one day. Sure when the WORST OF THE WORST happened (outside of MJ actually dying), it was just one day. But there were plenty of opportunities of PREVENTION that AEG could have taken, but instead their actions were the OPPOSITE. It is a fact that MJ did not want to come to rehearsals every day, he said he needed his rest, but he did not have a choice because if he didn't, they would pull the plug. So he came as often as he could. It is a fact that there was no written consent that MJ ever agreed to 50 shows in the schedule that was laid out, it was Tohme and Randy who agreed to 50 shows the way it was laid out, with little to no rest in between. So that is added stress. Everyone knew MJ had insomnia, this was a medical issue that was plain as day, so what makes them think that that schedule was anywhere near suitable for a 50 year old with insomnia? Who ALSO had to attend rehearsals almost everyday BEFORE the actual concerts for 3 months. The didn't give a damn. Negligence.
- Again, so what if MJ hired Tohme. Its again the whole 'well you were alone at night, it was your decision to be alone at night, so you deserved to get murdered' kinda mentality to me. MJ couldn't predict the future, and neither could jermaine. And his bad business decisions should not have cost him his life.

@Bubs
Controlling a doctor that is employed by the company due contract and because they are paying his salary (and a company is liable for their employees) is WAY different than pushing the ARTIST (who is supposed to be running the show) to come to rehearsals out of contract, among other things (never said they controlled what he ate or whatever, but they did control his future thanks to that contract which in turn affected his decisions) as MJ wasn't their employee but was supposed to be a PARTNER.

It is so easy to judge a person being a 'grown adult' and their decisions when standing from afar. That's really all I have to say about the 'grown man' argument. This is not a matter of MJ sitting around, being naive and distracted while he signs a bunch of papers all la-de-da. We have people who will not be ashamed of blackmail, extortion, using the media for their own gain, using the fans for their own gain, lying to MJ's face and turning around to do something else, manipulating people around him. And again I say, it is impossible for MJ to be all things. He hires people because he NEEDS to. And it is unfortunate that no one has had MJ's best interest at heart in this regard.

And listen, I understand being distrusting of the Jacksons, as I said I'm very critical of their decisions myself. But I'm just not at the opinion (and I don't think I'll ever be) that the Jacksons are the enemies over these folks that were surrounding MJ. Sure they didn't help, but I don't see them as this family who is running around plotting and scheming about the best way to ruin their (now dead) brother. And again, I do not think that they would have rather see MJ dead than not get their paychecks. AEG on the other hand? They set themselves up either way.
 
J5master said:
And not agreeing with the verdict after deliberating for a week on ALL the issues is one thing (re: the 2005 trial). Not being able to be given a chance to deliberate on all the issues they wanted to discuss because of misleading instructions is another.
Click to expand...

Misleading? They were CACI and there's no point in continuing deliberations since ALL the elements are needed to find AEG liable. Once they answered "no" to any one question, it was over.
 
Last edited:
@J5master,
Tohme was in Michael's life because of Jermaine not Randy Phillips. How did AEG take advantage when they were offering the opportunity for him to get out of debt? MJ was going to earn a few million dollars a show for 50 shows. The venue MJ was set up in was a residency run meaning MJ didn’t have the expense or the wear and tear on his body of having to move the show from stadium to stadium during the course of the tour. He had breaks of two-three days to recover between each show or about three shows a week. He could recover and sleep in his own bed at his country estate not a hotel suit in a different town every night. His kids could live a normal life without fans outside their hotel. That sounds like an okay deal that no one else was offering. MJ could have made a big come-back.

I work in a medical office but if one of my patients came in with chills and rambling I'm sure I wouldn't immediately say "Oh snap! This person must be taking PROPOFOL to sleep every night"! MJ had chills; he was rambling and barely knew what was going on because he came to work with Propofol still in his system from Murray's treatment not because he was sick.

Also the medical equipment that was ordered is standard for any artist performing in an arena. It’s not unusual at all for oxygen, defibrillators, stricture and IV stands to be on hand. All sports teams and athletes have them. If the artist has an accident, a heart attack, dehydration or other medical problem you would want to have these things around. Wouldn't you expect MJ to be spent and tired some days? Are you always perky when you go to work? Should your boss send you home and get you tested for Propofol because you come to work tired? Should he suspect you're going to die in a few days and get you tested right away? Don't you think your co-workers would just think you maybe didn't sleep or were having a bad day?

The fact is that Michael was an adult not a kid. I don't think Bubs is judging him and neither am I. I love him but it's disrespectful to treat him as if he was not capable of taking care of himself and thinking he needed to be watched like a two year old to keep him from hurting himself.
 
The fact is that Michael was an adult not a kid. I don't think Bubs is judging him and neither am I. I love him but it's disrespectful to treat him as if he was not capable of taking care of himself and thinking he needed to be watched like a two year old to keep him from hurting himself.
Click to expand...

That's not what I was saying either. Its like if you take Katherine's side, you're automatically saying you think MJ needed to be treated like a 2- year old and thats not in anything that I was saying. I'm saying that they should've treated him like the partner he was and not an inanimate asset. They should have done their jobs as employers and as people putting on a big production. They should not have conducted deals without MJ's consent. I don't think Prince or Celine Dion needed a ton of medical equipment in their personal homes, and even if they did and I'm wrong about that, I bet those things were provided right away. MJ didn't need to be monitored 24/7 (although like i said before, the mess started happening when they DID think that he needed that. I disagree with this assumption). MJ's requests and respect as an artist in this deal should have been upheld. And their negligence in this department from the very beginning ALSO led to the events on June 25th, IMO.

I'm also not saying they should have diagnosed MJ. I'm saying they knew that Murray wasn't doing his job well as they admitted it in their emails. MJ should not have come to rehearsal like that on June 19th if Murray was doing his job. Ortega should not have been the one taking care of MJ the night of June 19th and not getting a response from Murray when he desperately called him for help. Also its not just propofol, but all the other benzos and sedatives that Murray convinced MJ would work - including Versed, which can most definitely cause MJ's symptoms. Again I'm not saying MJ WASN'T healthy overall. The only things that killed him was what Murray fed him with - which means in the end, those things Murray fed him up until June 25th are a factor. The context of Murray feeding him a cocktail of drugs prior to his death and folks noticing that something wasn't right is important.

Of COURSE it sounds like a good deal, I'm sure it sounded like a good deal at first to Mj which is why he went with them in the first place, but there was obviously a lot of underhanded tactics being done to undermine all of the good things he thought he was getting out of that deal. I don't see why this is so hard to believe. Its happened time and time again in MJ's life, this is no different.

But I understand we dont see eye to eye on this and thats fine :) But I have to admit, for the sake of honesty, that it kind of gets my blood boiling just a little when its implied that I'm being disrespectful to MJ for believing AEG should be called out on their crap. Or that I want to baby him. Thats not at all what I'm saying. If that's not what you meant by that comment, then my bad :p


 
Misleading? They were CACI and there's no point in continuing deliberations since ALL the elements are needed to find AEG liable. Once they answered "no" to any one question, it was over.
Click to expand...

Well this is the complaint from one of the jurors:

Question 2 on the verdict form asked: “Was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?” The clear meaning of that question, when coupled with the first question asking, “Did AEG Live hire Dr. Conrad Murray?”, limited our consideration to Dr. Murray’s competency at the time he was hired. The question did not allow us to discuss the issue of whether Dr. Murray became unfit or incompetent later in time.
Click to expand...

I personally believe that is a huge deal in the judgment of the case. No matter when Murray started showing signs of incompetence, whether when he was first hired or later on, AEG's liability is still in question.
 
J5master said:
Thanks Tygger. I didn't get a chance to read about Juror #27. Is there a link to a discussion about that?
Click to expand...

The sub-forum was archived here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/forums/266-Katherine-Jackson-vs-AEG-Live

The Juror#27 appears in the verdict discussion here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...OT-Liable-Discussion-Katherine-Jackson-vs-AEG

And not agreeing with the verdict after deliberating for a week on ALL the issues is one thing (re: the 2005 trial). Not being able to be given a chance to deliberate on all the issues they wanted to discuss because of misleading instructions is another.
Click to expand...

The pre-appeal discussion is here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/130852-KJ-vs-AEG-Trial-outcome-Possible-Appeal-closed

Enjoy! Let me know if you have any questions however; I believe most of your questions will be answered in those threads.
 
Last edited:
J5master said:
Well this is the complaint from one of the jurors:

I personally believe that is a huge deal in the judgment of the case. No matter when Murray started showing signs of incompetence, whether when he was first hired or later on, AEG's liability is still in question.
Click to expand...

Other jurors disagreed on this point. "Buyer's remorse" by jurors is common which is why the deliberation process is protected -- inquiry into deliberations focusing on conduct, not content.

At any rate, the discussions of the trial in the original threads cover all this and make for interesting reading.
 
But I understand we dont see eye to eye on this and thats fine :) But I have to admit, for the sake of honesty, that it kind of gets my blood boiling just a little when its implied that I'm being disrespectful to MJ for believing AEG should be called out on their crap. Or that I want to baby him. Thats not at all what I'm saying. If that's not what you meant by that comment, then my bad :p


[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

No, I’m not implying you personally are being disrespectful to Michael because I know you would never do that. You love him and your position on this issue grows out of that love. I understand that. What I’m saying is that there is a notion among some that Michael was a helpless, powerless little child-man incapable of wiping his own nose and that is disrespectful of the awesome personality he was.
 
J5master said:
Well this is the complaint from one of the jurors:



I personally believe that is a huge deal in the judgment of the case. No matter when Murray started showing signs of incompetence, whether when he was first hired or later on, AEG's liability is still in question.
Click to expand...

The jurors have to follow the law. It's not up to them to change things based on their feelings. They are suppose to follow the judges instructions and go by the facts.
 
J5master said:
@Bubs

It is so easy to judge a person being a 'grown adult' and their decisions when standing from afar. That's really all I have to say about the 'grown man' argument. This is not a matter of MJ sitting around, being naive and distracted while he signs a bunch of papers all la-de-da. We have people who will not be ashamed of blackmail, extortion, using the media for their own gain, using the fans for their own gain, lying to MJ's face and turning around to do something else, manipulating people around him. And again I say, it is impossible for MJ to be all things. He hires people because he NEEDS to. And it is unfortunate that no one has had MJ's best interest at heart in this regard.
Click to expand...

I really got pissed off you saying I'm judging Michael!
First thing first, I'm not judging Michael, but respecting him by saying he is captain of his own ship (his own words). We all make decisions every day and some might be good some not so good so we regret those bad ones. I will not take away Michael's right to make his own decisions even though sometimes to me they are bad ones, such as wanting CM and knowing he needed to practice for what MJ wanted him to do. Aren't you responsible of your own decisions or perhaps someone else? If someone else controls your decisions, it means you are under conservatorship. Michael wasn't under anyones conservatorship thus his decisions were his.
I know during his life time,there were people who didn't have Michael's best interest in their heart, but MJ knew that, he said so.

This was discussed in the original thread, but how normal person without any medical knowledge controls doctor?
They had no idea what CM was doing during the nights, and they had no idea CM only job was to be there during the nights.

Secondly, I will not accuse AEG for contract terms between MJ and them. I accuse Tohme for not looking after MJ benefit. AEG took what was offered to them in gold plate, can you blame them? They are just a bunch of people who were there to make money for the company they worked, they weren't there to say, "Michael we cannot sign this contract because you get screwed by the terms", or they weren't there just to hand out money for MJ for nothing, which some fans seems to think they should have done.

All I see in your post is that you accusing AEG for not seeing what was going on, thus you do exactly the same you accuse me of, judging from afar. We weren't there, and lived that situation, thus from behind computer it is so easy to say what should or shouldn't have been done.

About MJ's chills etc, did you read Karen Fakes email? That was sent 3 days before MJ died and in it she insinuates that Michael is practically making himself ill or possible faking it. What do you think people who received that email though when they read it, as it came from person who has been with MJ for 27 years and knows Michael? If I were AEG person and received that sort of mail, I would have been suspicious whether MJ wanted to do his part of agreement and concerns of his health would have gone out of the window because according MJ's own long time staff, he was faking it. I suspect that email was sent or told to many people, and content of it threw AEG staff off the rails and possible started thinking whether MJ was only faking it.
Unfortunately time run out to find out what was wrong, and CM ended up killing MJ out of ignorance.
 
Bubs said:
I really got pissed off you saying I'm judging Michael!
Click to expand...

Sorry, if it came across that way. Just like Victory, i wasn't saying that about anyone personally. But in general many people tend to use the fact that he was grown as reason to put all the blame on him, to prove he was a drug addict (which I personally do not believe he was addicted to anything at the time of his death and the tox results of the autopsy proved it), and to - in fact - judge him for what happened, and it is the opinion of many people outside of the fan community. But I know thats not what you're trying to do.

So no, I was not judging you and I respect your opinions.
 
It’s all a matter of balance in my opinion. Some fans want to come down hard on Michael and crucify him for every mistake he ever made. The other end of the spectrum wants to take away MJ’s power to make his own mistakes. They deny he had any responsibly for any of the circumstances of his life. I see Michael as lovable and HUMAN. He had his flaws and he had his extraordinary genius. He was very complex with many sides to his personality.

I said all this to say Michael wasn’t forced to sign the contract with AEG; he wasn’t forced to use Propofol, Versed or Ativan. He wasn’t forced to come to rehearsal. He wasn’t forced to do 50 shows or do TII. It was just as much MJ's responsibly to know what Murrays ethical background was as it was AEG.

Don’t get me wrong, I am still devastated by the way MJ died and that he was taken so brutally from us and his kids. However I cannot without proof blame anyone other than Murray for what happened to him on June 25, 2009. Yes, there were a lot of evil people throughout his life but I'm focusing on June 25, 2009 only. The evidence only points to Murray.
 
Murray will always be know as the man who cause the dead of Michael Jackson.
 
serendipity said:
For the Jacksons it is about money though, otherwise they wouldn't have been offering settlements more than once. They wouldn't have turned down restitution from Murray either and given him a pass if it wasn't about money. But if there's one thing we've learned it's that everything is about money with this family, everything.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and I remember we found out about them asking for 2 settlements from their own attorney!!! WE also know why they had to turn down restitution, because the amount they could have gotten from AEG would be reduced by the restitution amount. Since Muarry could not pay, there is no need to tie themselves up with a no money guy, when they could get real cash from the AEG case.

Also, about this case, it is not about what some feel AEG did to Michael but one must look at the exact wording on the jury form and look at the evidence that supports or does not support it. I mean we went over this all through the trial thread and with the juror. Did AEG know or should have known etc, etc.......? The answer is NO. What happened in the room is what killed Michael, and there is no evidence that AEG was involved in the room situation. The case is not about whether AEG officials talked bad about Michael, slapped him, made him rehearse, and all the other things that we feel AEG did or said that was bad. This is a case with specific allegations and specific jury instructions.


If some feel anything in the Michael-AEG relationship warrants a lawsuit, then that is another case, and not the Katherine vs AEG case; and the family should sue AEG for maltreatment or some such thing if that can be done.

There is also evidence about how Michael was during the meeting with AEG about the deal/contract, and the picture painted is an alert man who knew what he wanted. There was no baby Michael at that meeting!!

Anyway it seemed we went into the trial thread here. We discussed all this in that thread and this is for the appeal. To understand the trial I think people should read all the tweets/articles/testimony in sequence. Look at all the evidence together not just take out some Q & A from 3 people to make a judgment about the outcome of the case. One witness says something and the other says something different or adds some context to it, so everything has to be looked at. It seems to me that now, as well as during the trial, the fans who think AEG is liable are the ones who do not really connect the evidence to the actual questions on the form. They lead with their emotions and hurt feelings about what happened to Michael. I think it is a good idea for such fans to make a chart with all the questions on the form and connect it with the evidence that supports each question. Of course when you reach the NO you have to stop anyway.

People also need to remember that if AEG was found liable, the jury would attribute a certain percentage of blame to Michael. It could have been a higher percentage than Muarry's or it could be just very high. That would have been very devastating to see as well. So Michael would have been shown to be significantly responsible in his death, plus have his private business in public, plus be dead.
 
Last edited:
I really don't see what the Jacksons will get out of this second appeal why drag Michael through the mud again. I don't see a jury saying that AEG is responsible for the death of Michael Jackson it is just a waste of time that is imo.
 
KJ's side is due reply today (Appellant's reply brief 09/16/2014), so how long do we have to wait to hear any kind of news regarding to appeal? Ivy?
 
^^Thanks for alerting us and keeping up with the due dates. From past history, it would be the same thing where Panish forget's to show again what error was made that needs to be corrected. From the Muarry and Panish briefs I am getting the impression that some lawyers don't know how to write a brief for an appeal. They just don't know what key aspect MUST be shown. Why don't they hire some good lawyer that deals with appeals and have the person do the brief? Way back before the AEG trial started, Katherine had hired a new lawyer and when we looked him up it showed he worked on appeals. What happened to this guy?
 
probably first they would set a hearing (unless parties waive it) and then several months before a decision. Katherine has a different lawyer handling the appeal.
 
These cases (This, Tohme and few others) are going ahead way too slowly for my liking.
Every time there is some proceedings, the next step could take months or even years.
No wonder I'm keep asking from Ivy same things over and over again, because the length between proceedings makes me forget what I know already.
Hopefully I see at least one case finished before I kick the bucket:D

Petra, it the same guy (actually woman Margaret M. Grignon) who works on this appeal.
 
unfortunately legal proceedings takes years and extensions do not help. I believe after the case is submitted, they will make a decision in 90 days. However right now we don't know when or if they would set an oral hearing. It would depend on that.
 
Oh here we go again the waiting time. Bubs i am with you i would love to see one of these finish before i kick the bucket too.


Thanks Ivy


Okay 90 days and couting on hold right now
 
ivy said:
probably first they would set a hearing (unless parties waive it) and then several months before a decision. Katherine has a different lawyer handling the appeal.
Click to expand...


Ivy do you think both parties will waive the hearing and go into the months?
 
They'd better hurry up, KJ is not getting any younger.

Ivy, I know this was asked before, but I cannot remember the answer (see ref my previous post:)), can someone else take over this case if KJ passes before its concluded?
 
I hope it is none of her children.

Would it be the person who has her power of attorey? the person who can speak on her behalf that is how it is done right?
 
Last edited:
pminton said:
Ivy do you think both parties will waive the hearing and go into the months?
Click to expand...

most probably yes there would be an oral hearing. so I think we are looking at whatever it takes them to schedule a hearing + 3 months for a decision.

Bubs said:
Ivy, I know this was asked before, but I cannot remember the answer (see ref my previous post:)), can someone else take over this case if KJ passes before its concluded?
Click to expand...

yes her estate would.
 
ivy said:
yes her estate would.
Click to expand...

At least when KJ passes, and if someone else takes over, MJ's estate doesn't have to pay the bills.
------------------

Seemingly KJ's party filed their brief in time
09/16/2014 Case fully briefed.

Now we just wait for the judges to decide?
I'm right to say that sometimes they can be fast with their decisions?
If I remember correctly, CM appeal was denied pretty fast?
 
Last edited:
the next step is the oral hearing. now the case is fully briefed the court should set a date for oral hearing. It might take several months

after the oral hearing there's generally a decision within 3 months.

so current timeline is

time it takes to set an oral hearing + 3 months
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top