KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Possible Appeal [closed]

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Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Well that was a fascinating read.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

-"Judge states it was Jacksons experts role to describe Murray unethical conducts and tie Murray's unethical conducts to unfitness or incompetence to practice medicine."
^^There you go. They never did that but focused on him being in debt and how that was a red flag, and AEG created a conflict of interest.


Yes, they did spend lots of time on other issues, such as how much MJ would have earned, much he would have given to his mother, and how many years he would have been touring, but they didn't spend much time on proving their case.


Ott, Anthony McCartney's articles are hands down the best unbiased articles out there :bow: Clad to see that many media outlets have bought his articles and those are now spreading in many media sites.
It is really joy to read them as he states the facts, and not even once you can read his own opinion of anything. Facts, facts and facts, nothing else, and thats what I want to read.
 
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Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Thank you Ivy.

I must admit I giggled a little at Boyle stating that the Plantiffs would be okay with a general verdict form 'were they negligent', 'what are the damages'

Panish seemed a little all over the place IMO
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Ott, Anthony McCartney's articles are hands down the best unbiased articles out there :bow: Clad to see that many media outlets have bought his articles and those are now spreading in many media sites.
It is really joy to read them as he states the facts, and not even once you can read his own opinion of anything. Facts, facts and facts, nothing else, and thats what I want to read.

I agree. He's like Linda Deutsch - very objective and unbiased.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Thank you Ivy.

I must admit I giggled a little at Boyle stating that the Plantiffs would be okay with a general verdict form 'were they negligent', 'what are the damages'

Panish seemed a little all over the place IMO

I'm reading the document at the moment and just came across that bit.
It made me lol.
Guilty or not guilty - give me the money verdict form:)

They weren't even including the question 1 whether AEG hired CM or not, they just wanted to jury to assume he was hired and they can go straight to the point as how much money plaintiffs should be awarded.

So far what I'm reading, its like Panish and Co is accusing the judge for not telling them what to do and what to request on verdict form, also for not reminding them see see through what they started. Basically they were incompetent and now are accusing court-judge for wrongdoing.
Sounds familiar? CM's appeal is very much similar:)
 
New Trial Denied In Michael Jackson Wrongful Death Suit

Share us on:TwitterFacebookLinkedInBy Michael Lipkin 0 Comments

Law360, Los Angeles (January 14, 2014, 4:02 PM ET) -- A California state judge on Monday rejected a request from Michael Jackson’s family for a new trial to determine if concert promoter AEG Live LLC was liable for his death by negligently employing the doctor who gave the music icon a fatal dose of the powerful anesthetic propofol.

Judge Yvette M. Palazuelos ruled that her jury instructions were not confusing and accurately represented California law covering negligence. Jackson’s mother and three children argued that one of the jury questions, asking if Dr. Conrad Murray was “unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired,” led jurors to believe the question only concerned his fitness at the time of his hiring.

The question prevented the jury from finding that AEG was negligent in retaining Murray if he became unfit later, the Jacksons argued. The fitness question also came after a question asking if AEG actually hired Murray, further tying the fitness question in juror’s minds to the start of employment, according to the Jacksons.

But Judge Palazuelos held that the questions were clear and did not limit the jurors from considering Murray’s fitness at any point in his employment.

“It does not ask if Dr. Murray was unfit or incompetent at the time he was hired,” the opinion said. “Question 2 does not restrict jurors to the consideration of Dr. Murray’s competence at the time of hiring only.”

The Jacksons had argued that it had objected to the question and asked for the phrase “at any time” to be added. While both sides argued over whether the objection was valid, Judge Palazuelos ruled that even if the Jacksons had properly upheld their objection, the phrase would have made the question inaccurate.

The phrase “may have resulted in jury consideration of a time frame before AEG Live had hired Dr. Murray or before it had ever had contract with Dr. Murray, or after decedent had died,” the opinion said.

The opinion leaves in place the jury’s October verdict for AEG in the wrongful death case. The Jackson family asked for $1.5 billion in damages, based on their expert's estimate of what Jackson would have earned from new music, tours, endorsements and a Las Vegas show if he had lived.

The Los Angeles Superior Court jury, which deliberated for less than three days, answered “Yes” to the first question on the verdict form, “Did AEG Live hire Dr. Conrad Murray?” but “No" to the following question, “Was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?”

The panel had to answer “Yes” to a total of five questions for AEG to be found liable for Jackson's June 25, 2009, death at his home in the Holmby Hills neighborhood of Los Angeles.

A criminal jury in November 2011 convicted Murray of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's death.

Jackson's family alleged that by paying the financially distressed Murray $150,000 per month to make sure Jackson performed the concerts it was promoting, AEG created a conflict of interest that caused Murray to make poor medical decisions including administering the fatal overdose.

Monday’s decision also rejected the Jacksons’ argument that the court erred in rejecting their request to add a general negligence claim to their amended complaint. Murray’s employment was the alleged interference with Jackson’s health, the court held, and any general negligence claims would either be duplicative of negligent hiring, supervision and retention claims, “a disguised version of it, or too attenuated to be a free-standing cognizable cause of action.”

An attorney for the Jacksons said they planned to appeal the jury’s decision.

“We have many strong arguments for the appeal in addition to a confusing verdict form — including that we were not permitted to go to the jury on general negligence or on the question of whether AEG employed Dr. Murray and was therefore vicariously liable for his actions,” Kevin Boyle of Panish Shea & Boyle LLP said.

AEG’s lawyers said they were pleased with the ruling.

“We were confident that the court would uphold the jury’s verdict, the product of five months of their careful focus and attention,” Marvin S. Putnam of O’Melveny & Myers LLP said. “This is also fantastic news for the taxpayers of California, who won’t have their hard-earned money wasted retrying plaintiffs’ baseless claims. Enough is enough.”

The plaintiffs are represented by Brian J. Panish, Kevin R. Boyle, Deborah Chang and Robert S. Glassman of Panish Shea & Boyle LLP and Michael Koskoff of Koskoff Koskoff & Bieder PC.

AEG Live is represented by Marvin S. Putnam, Sabrina H. Strong, Jessica L. Stebbins Bina and Kathryn A. Cahan of O'Melveny & Myers LLP.

The case is Katherine Jackson et al. v. AEG Live LLC et al., case No. BC445597, in the Superior Court of the State of California, County of Los Angeles.

http://www.law360.com/articles/501097/new-trial-denied-in-michael-jackson-wrongful-death-suit
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Yes, they did spend lots of time on other issues, such as how much MJ would have earned, much he would have given to his mother, and how many years he would have been touring, but they didn't spend much time on proving their case.QUOTE]

The plaintiffs thought that proving their case was in the bag. They thought the only thing they had to prove was that they should get 1.5 billion. It was crucial that they get that much because after lawyers fees and taxes there would then be almost 10 million per cub. Too bad. :)
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Yes, they did spend lots of time on other issues, such as how much MJ would have earned, much he would have given to his mother, and how many years he would have been touring, but they didn't spend much time on proving their case.QUOTE]

The plaintiffs thought that proving their case was in the bag. They thought the only thing they had to prove was that they should get 1.5 billion. It was crucial that they get that much because after lawyers fees and taxes there would then be almost 10 million per cub. Too bad. :)

Yes, but don't forget that the Jackson lawyers in the civil trial were working for a percentage of the compensation awarded (obviously expecting it would be HUGE). So, they got nothing when they lost the case. Explains why ALL of them, family members (excluding Prince and Paris, of course) and lawyers, seemed eager to trash Michael's health, finances and life choices. IMO they all got what they deserve - NOTHING. And now that decision has been upheld by the appeal court, and supported by the confirmation of Murray's conviction by another appeal court! GOOD!
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

I wonder what is Randy's next move?

It would be nice if Ivy could get him to do Q&A with MJJC so we can ask him directly :cheeky:

I personally think, out of good heart, he'll keep studying how to release elderly people from their money.
 
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I find it interesting that the jurors’ identities need to be protected after these affidavits and not after the trial ended.

Is it not interesting that the defense conceded to question four while not being held liable on question two? Question four: "did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?"


Bubs;3950655 said:
I have to post Alan Duke's latest pathetic article. The bolded is the only part of the article where he gave any column space to AEG's side argument. His head is way too deep in plaintiffs side a.. to be non-biased reporter.

No one is perfect therefore, no one is unbiased. Law360 clearly prefers the defense; they awarded Putnam with a Media and Entertainment MVP award for his civil trial defense! I found Anthony McCartney and ABC7CourtNews to be the most consistent however; both were conveniently unavailable during Phillips’ testimony where he recalled slapping Michael. I had to wait to review transcripts regarding that event as most media outlets (minus one) would not discuss it.

Kerry Hennigan;3951949 said:
Explains why ALL of them, family members (excluding Prince and Paris, of course) and lawyers, seemed eager to trash Michael's health, finances and life choices. IMO they all got what they deserve - NOTHING. And now that decision has been upheld by the appeal court, and supported by the confirmation of Murray's conviction by another appeal court! GOOD!

Please do not forget to exclude Michael’s youngest son. Also, there is no decision being upheld by the appeals court…yet. The new trial was denied by the judge presiding over the civil trial.

Ivy, whether the plaintiffs made a weak or strong protest for BAJI, the CACI instruction would stand as that is preferred as per your own posts. I believe the judge did her best considering you are saying we have only portions of the transcripts of the CACI/BAJI discussion. She allowed each respective lawyer to give their interpretation of question two and it was up to the jurors to decide which interpretation they preferred. I do not believe either interpretation was “stronger” as you put it; it is simply which the jurors preferred. How the plaintiffs’ lawyers’ action or lack of action will affect the appeal remains to be seen however, that is not the only issue on appeal.

I understand jury deliberations do not have any set protocols. I do believe if one claim has three elements and evidence is presented to a jury to support or negate those three elements, those three elements should be deliberated on. In this case, evidence was presented for hiring, supervision, and retention when only hiring was deliberated on. As per your summary, hiring has to occur first and these jurors did find AEG hired the doctor and that is where it ended. The jurors did not deliberate on negligent supervision or negligent retention, only negligent hiring. I am interested in hearing what the appellate court will find regarding that.

It is unfortunate to hear you do not have an interest in researching case studies more similar to this particular case. I appreciate the legal discussion and I believe explanations for both sides makes the discussion more objective and the actions of both sides more understandable for readers.

As for precedent, no one is suggesting that employers would be responsible for their employees’ every action done outside of employment or as per your summary: before employment, and/or after employment. That type of suggestion is an exaggeration if this is what Law360 is suggesting and for me it is purposeful generalization meant to induce fear. Very similar to the defense suggesting the plaintiffs were casting aspersions on anyone currently in debt when that was untrue.

ivy;3950788 said:
And honestly how can you blame the judge if the jurors themselves decided not to ask questions? If they had a question they should have asked it no matter what. For example do you have any problems standing your ground on this discussion despite the fact that majority seems to not agree with you generally? If you can stand your ground despite of strong opposition so can the jurors. Crying after the fact isn't really an excuse in my book.

Ivy, Serendipity, please show me where I blamed the judge that the jurors did not ask questions. I continue to find it humorous that because the jurors asked for supplies and discussed their scheduling conflicts with the judge it meant that they would feel free to ask her questions regarding deliberations whatever those questions could have been.

The only reason we know the jurors did not ask questions is because juror(s) felt the need to publicize that information after the fact. Confusion regarding question two was expressed publicly as well. It was the same confusion expressed by many posters here before the verdict was delivered.

Ivy, I am unsure how you made the connection between the jurors asking questions during deliberations and me having the minority view compared to the other posters in the AEG civil trial threads however, I believe you know the answer to your question to me. That being said, I am not a juror and I do not believe anyone of us can or should assume to know the personalities of the jurors. There may have been a juror(s) with a similar personality to mine and there may have not. We will never know.

My view may be the minority view here in these specific threads however, it is the majority view outside of this subforum. My view was shared by many Michael Jackson fans (the ones the media showcased) and actually many non-Michael Jackson fans.
 
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@Tygger

I find it interesting that the jurors’ identities need to be protected after these affidavits and not after the trial ended.

Is it not interesting that the defense conceded to question four while not being held liable on question two? Question four: "did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?"

I'm not sure I understand the second paragraph. I take it to mean that you find it not surprising. If that is the case then I agree with you. I do,however, find it surprising that the Plantiffs lawyers conceded to question 2. I still think that if they had somehow added the words 'at any time' that it would still be a sticking point so long as 'the job for which he was hired' remained. IMO question 2 is simply worded and easy to answer once you have established that AEG hired Murray. Logically once the hiring has been answered then it would be reasonable to refer to the contract to establish exactly what was the job description for which he was hired was. In all honesty right up until the end Murray was capable of general medical needs, but he exceeded the job for which he was hired and then was caught up in covering up the the negligent medical choices he was making.

Ivy, I am unsure how you made the connection between the jurors asking questions during deliberations and me having the minority view compared to the other posters in the AEG civil trial threads however, I believe you know the answer to your question to me. That being said, I am not a juror and I do not believe anyone of us can or should assume to know the personalities of the jurors. There may have been a juror(s) with a similar personality to mine and there may have not. We will never know.

Im intrigued to know how you would justify what your answer would be to question 2. It's a genuine request as I can't see any other answer to that question regardless of how anyone feels about this trial.

My view may be the minority view here in these specific threads however, it is the majority view outside of this subforum. My view was shared by many Michael Jackson fans (the ones the media showcased) and actually many non-Michael Jackson fans.

Wow! That is quite a claim to make. You seem to forget the poll we had on this subforum 50/50 as I recall. That is not a minority. You actually can't make that statement unless you had knowledge of every fan and non fans opinions.
 
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Tygger;3953556 said:
I find it interesting that the jurors’ identities need to be protected after these affidavits and not after the trial ended.

there's a little confusion here: jurors identities were and is always protected. In other words court or the sides would never disclose their identities and that's the law. What happened with the affidavits is that 11 jurors signed affidavits showing their names. As their identities were and are protected those are filed redacted for public access. AEG stated and the judge agreed that more protection is needed and hence sealed the non redacted documents. In other words they are taking extra caution for a possible leak and they think that MJ fans could be a threat.


It is unfortunate to hear you do not have an interest in researching case studies more similar to this particular case. I appreciate the legal discussion and I believe explanations for both sides makes the discussion more objective and the actions of both sides more understandable for readers.

just for the record : as I said what I do or don't do, shouldn't be a reason for you to not do research on your own. I feel majority of the people are capable of doing the type of research I could do. It is also important to remember that I'm a volunteer here and I don't work here or have any obligation to respond to requests. What I do is a factor of what I'm willing to do, what I'm interested about and how much free time I have.

As for precedent, no one is suggesting that employers would be responsible for their employees’ every action done outside of employment or as per your summary: before employment, and/or after employment. That type of suggestion is an exaggeration if this is what Law360 is suggesting and for me it is purposeful generalization meant to induce fear. Very similar to the defense suggesting the plaintiffs were casting aspersions on anyone currently in debt when that was untrue.

Well this is where I disagree. I think the question is what we consider to be an action done outside the employment. So if someone is hired for general care but give anesthesia is that an action outside the employment? Do we expect a concert promoter to supervise what a physician does behind closed doors? I'm not sure if that's an exaggeration of Law360. I feel Jackson lawyers whole position was that and to me it might have been a very scary precedent. As for the debt argument, I did and I will continue to blame the Jacksons HR expert. She did testify that after she checked Murray's finances she would stop any further background check and she claimed debt would make him unsuitable for hire. That's casting aspersions on anyone currently in debt in my opinion. Why would anyone become unsuitable for hire only because they have debt? Shouldn't the qualifications of a person be considered before we decide to hire them or not? Also are they trying to say that any doctor in debt would be a "Red flag" and provide improper drugs to their patients?

I have to ask. Did you ever stop and consider real life consequences of such arguments. Just other day on TV I heard a news story about a job fair and they interviewed someone who said he had been unemployed for 2 years and behind on his payments and really needed the job. That person would never be suitable for hire per Jacksons HR expert. Also sometime back one of the area physicians sent a notice saying that he would close down his practice and join another one. I saw him and asked him why. He said to me it was because he was bankrupt (maintaining his own practice was way to costly) and therefore he would be joining another one. Again according to Jackson HR expert that doctor is likely to give out improper drugs for money.

I don't believe in the notion that just because someone is in debt, that makes them unsuitable for hire or mean that they would do something improper. And there should be a limit to who we supervise and how much. I do hire a lot of independent contractors and I make sure that all of them are licensed, insured and bonded. I never supervise them because I think they know what they are doing - as they are licensed. And I believe in case anything goes wrong they would be the responsible/liable ones as they are insured and bonded.



Ivy, I am unsure how you made the connection between the jurors asking questions during deliberations and me having the minority view compared to the other posters in the AEG civil trial threads however, I believe you know the answer to your question to me. That being said, I am not a juror and I do not believe anyone of us can or should assume to know the personalities of the jurors. There may have been a juror(s) with a similar personality to mine and there may have not. We will never know.

that wasn't a question but an example. I was trying to say you were able to stand your ground regardless of how many people disagree with you (and it was a compliment so take it). I'm personally do not buy making "excuses" for the jurors. If they strongly believed something they should have hold their ground. Refused to vote until other elements are discussed. Insist that a question is sent to the judge and so on. It's meaningless at least in my book to say "okay" but then complain.

My view may be the minority view here in these specific threads however, it is the majority view outside of this subforum. My view was shared by many Michael Jackson fans (the ones the media showcased) and actually many non-Michael Jackson fans.

LastTear;3953615 said:
Wow! That is quite a claim to make. You seem to forget the poll we had on this subforum 50/50 as I recall. That is not a minority. You actually can't make that statement unless you had knowledge of every fan and non fans opinions.

I believe Tygger is referencing to a poll on a HLN or CNN website (or something like that) which showed the people were favoring Jacksons. However none of the polls is a valid source to make any claims such as MJJC polls show the the viewpoint of the currently or the active members which cannot be generalized to whole fanbase or the public. Media polls show the views of a group of people reading the article which cannot be generalized to the MJ fans or public. (some polls also allow multiple voting hence the results can be skewed) There were several blogs/websites that were pro-jackson but just because they were it doesn't mean majority of the fans agreed with them. Similarly it doesn't mean majority of the people agree with MJJC members on any regard (not limited to AEG trial). There are many fans who aren't members at any forum/website/blog, who did not express their opinions or even followed the trial. Yes Tygger can provide many people that shared her opinion and similarly there are many people who shared the opposite (just check the comments behind the recent appeal articles for example). What is majority is unknown.

In every topic about MJ there's a tendency to use one statistic to make a claim that "majority" feels / supports a certain way of thinking. It is done for either side to show support that their opinion is the "right" one. However as mentioned above, I don't think that's reliable or valid.

PS: just for the record and to be clear : I wrote to Tygger that that majority generally doesn't seem to agree with her on this discussion meaning this thread only. I did not make any claims about minority/majority opinion outside this thread or in general.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

@Ivy
I believe Tygger is referencing to a poll on a HLN or CNN website (or something like that) which showed the people were favoring Jacksons. However none of the polls is a valid source to make any claims such as MJJC polls show the the viewpoint of the currently or the active members which cannot be generalized to whole fanbase or the public. Media polls show the views of a group of people reading the article which cannot be generalized to the MJ fans or public. (some polls also allow multiple voting hence the results can be skewed) There were several blogs/websites that were pro-jackson but just because they were it doesn't mean majority of the fans agreed with them. Similarly it doesn't mean majority of the people agree with MJJC members on any regard (not limited to AEG trial). There are many fans who aren't members at any forum/website/blog, who did not express their opinions or even followed the trial. Yes Tygger can provide many people that shared her opinion and similarly there are many people who shared the opposite (just check the comments behind the recent appeal articles for example). What is majority is unknown.

In every topic about MJ there's a tendency to use one statistic to make a claim that "majority" feels / supports a certain way of thinking. It is done for either side to show support that their opinion is the "right" one. However as mentioned above, I don't think that's reliable or valid.

PS: just for the record and to be clear : I wrote to Tygger that that majority generally doesn't seem to agree with her on this discussion meaning this thread only. I did not make any claims about minority/majority opinion outside this thread or in general.

That's exactly it, we can't judge the majorities views unless we know that everybody has given their views. The AEG threads prove it versus the poll that we added. Many people have different reasons for posting or not posting, just as many have different views on this trial, and its not always the obvious, I remember one poster only being adverse to AEG because they were a large corporation - and that was before any evidence. The only thing that matters is that we are all free to our own opinions and can freely express them, whatever they may be, (within the rules obviously).
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Yes Tygger can provide many people that shared her opinion and similarly there are many people who shared the opposite (just check the comments behind the recent appeal articles for example).

Most comments I've seen under the articles during the trial (more objective articles like AP etc.) has been largely against the Jacksons. People commenting how greedy they are and so on. It's the same with most non-MJ music and non-music forums I visit.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Is it not interesting that the defense conceded to question four while not being held liable on question two? Question four: "did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?"

Why interesting? They aren't "admitting" anything here. Murray proved incompetent to administer Propofol in a bedroom. However that doesn't make it AEG's responsibility since -- as the verdict affirmed -- that's NOT what they hired him to do.

I do believe if one claim has three elements and evidence is presented to a jury to support or negate those three elements, those three elements should be deliberated on. In this case, evidence was presented for hiring, supervision, and retention when only hiring was deliberated on. As per your summary, hiring has to occur first and these jurors did find AEG hired the doctor and that is where it ended. The jurors did not deliberate on negligent supervision or negligent retention, only negligent hiring. I am interested in hearing what the appellate court will find regarding that.

But as we've discussed, per CACI: "To establish this claim, [plaintiff] must prove all of the following..." (Emphasis added) Given CACI is the official instructions of CA, can't see the appellate court finding error here, sorry.

My view may be the minority view here in these specific threads however, it is the majority view outside of this subforum.

The entire world's been polled? No one called me. But seriously, even if that was possible, what difference would it make? The only opinions that actually matter are those of the jurors, the Judge and the Appellate Court based on evidence and the law. Not "Team Jackson Family", "Team AEG" or "Team Neither One". As to polls...online polls are far from scientific, are often based on emotion and as a result can be just plain wrong. (Polls after MJ's acquittal anyone?)
 
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Last Tear, Krizkil, the defense conceded to question four and I do indeed find it interesting that a question that references the doctor being unfit or incompetent was conceded to by them.

Krizkil, the jurors found AEG hired the doctor but, that the hiring was not negligent. Propofol administration was not mentioned and no one suggested AEG hired the doctor specifically for propofol administration.

krikzil;3953810 said:
But as we've discussed, per CACI: "To establish this claim, [plaintiff] must prove *all *of the following..." (Emphasis added) Given CACI is the official instructions of CA, can't see the appellate court finding error here, sorry.

Krizkil, no apologies necessary. The claim has an “or” operator and it is a civil trial so no, the plaintiffs did not have to prove all three elements to a jury to be successful. I prefer to patiently wait for the appellate court's findings.

LastTear;3953615 said:
Im intrigued to know how you would justify what your answer would be to question 2. It's a genuine request as I can't see any other answer to that question regardless of how anyone feels about this trial.

Last Tear, I responded to question two when we were awaiting the verdict.

Ivy, I understood what was said by the judge regarding the jurors. Some jurors did speak to the media on camera so they made their identities known. Fans did not seek out those jurors then. I personally do not believe they would now however, any potential crisis has been averted.

Please, there is no need to feel defensive about not posting case studies regarding the plaintiffs' appeal actions. I think you provide a great service particularly explaining complex legal jargon and concepts. No worries here.

LastTear;3953615 said:
In all honesty right up until the end Murray was capable of general medical needs, but he exceeded the job for which he was hired and then was caught up in covering up the the negligent medical choices he was making.

ivy;3953691 said:
So if someone is hired for general care but give anesthesia is that an action outside the employment?

We do not know if the doctor dealing with Michael’s sleep issues was an action outside of employment.

Phillips and Gongaware had NO recall if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues. Remember, propofol is hindsight and Phillips and Gongaware did NOT have to know how those issues were treated as that is a doctor-patient confidential action. The defense consistently and successful brought up propofol at every given moment to distract and these testimonies were not discussed in deliberations as evidence was not discussed as per the affidavits. I have yet to see the plaintiffs’ lawyers state they believe an employer is responsible for actions of an employee before/after employment and/or actions done outside of employment.

ivy;3953691 said:
As for the debt argument, I did and I will continue to blame the Jacksons HR expert.

You and other posters actually suggested the plaintiffs cast aspersions on everyone who currently carried debt because that is what AEG lawyers said before trial began. Their statement was a purposeful generalization done to induce fear. I read the testimony of the HR expert and she casted aspersions on the doctor ONLY who killed Michael not everyone who carries debt (this includes every doctor who carries debt) as you are suggesting. She felt his position was quite sensitive as he was entrusted with the life of a patient who happened to be a business partner as well. Some might say she was over cautious however, others would say Jorrie - with her failed ten minute Google search - and AEG were not cautious enough.

that wasn't a question but an example. I was trying to say you were able to stand your ground regardless of how many people disagree with you (and it was a compliment so take it). I'm personally do not buy making "excuses" for the jurors. If they strongly believed something they should have hold their ground. Refused to vote until other elements are discussed. Insist that a question is sent to the judge and so on. It's meaningless at least in my book to say "okay" but then complain.

Ivy, we agree. I am not making excuses for the jurors either as I am of the personality type to ask questions when I have them. Again, I do not think any of us can assume the personality types of the jurors. They did what they felt was right whether we agree with their actions or not.

Tygger;3953556 said:
My view may be the minority view here in these specific threads however, it is the majority view outside of this subforum. My view was shared by many Michael Jackson fans (the ones the media showcased) and actually many non-Michael Jackson fans.

Ivy, Last Tear, Serendipity, and Krizkil, I was very specific and I did not reference any polls so I have no idea why polls are referenced in each and every one of these responses. I also did not characterize my view as “right” so no need for that suggestion/discussion.

Maybe the word majority is concerning? It should not be. I believe I am safe in saying the majority of fans the media showcased did support the plaintiffs. There were fans who came to support Katherine everyday at trial and those were the ones the media would interview. Many non-fans did believe AEG would be victorious simply because they are a very successful corporation with a powerful presence where the trial took place and there are some negatives regarding that status in civil trials for some. They saw the plaintiffs as underdogs.
 
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@Tygger
Last Tear, I responded to question two when we were awaiting the verdict.

Okay, I can't remember exactly what each of us said and don't really have the time to sift through all those pages. So never mind.

Last Tear, Krizkil, the defense conceded to question four and I do indeed find it interesting that a question that references the doctor being unfit or incompetent was conceded to by them.

Yes, I replied that I thought it was because there was only one answer the jury could give to question 2, therefore question 4 would never be considered. Hence, I was more surprised that the Plantiffs conceded to question 2.

Ivy, Last Tear, Serendipity, and Krizkil, I was very specific and I did not reference any polls so I have no idea why polls are referenced in each and every one of these responses. I also did not characterize my view as “right” so no need for that suggestion/discussion.

Maybe the word majority is concerning? It should not be. I believe I am safe in saying the majority of fans the media showcased did support the plaintiffs. There were fans who came to support Katherine everyday at trial and those were the ones the media would interview. Many non-fans did believe AEG would be victorious simply because they are a very successful corporation with a powerful presence where the trial took place and there are some negatives regarding that status in civil trials for some. They saw the plaintiffs as underdogs.

So what were you referencing? A handful of fans who made it on the news? I only mentioned the poll here because you stated that on here you held the minority view which according to our poll was incorrect. You did not characterise your view as 'right' but it's of course obvious that we all believe that we are right, even if it's unspoken. There is nothing wrong in believing you are right and you are entitled to your opinion. To say that the majority of people share your views can be used as a way of inferring that ones opinion is right, the majority rules/wins - and that is the same the world over.
 
Tygger;3953877 said:
Krizkil, no apologies necessary. The claim has an “or” operator and it is a civil trial so no, the plaintiffs did not have to prove all three elements to a jury to be successful. I prefer to patiently wait for the appellate court's findings.

?

I was referring to the FOUR elements under CACI that plaintiffs must satisfy to prevail in negligent hiring, supervision or retention of an employee. "And" would be the key.

Tygger;3953877 said:
Ivy, Last Tear, Serendipity, and Krizkil, I was very specific and I did not reference any polls so I have no idea why polls are referenced in each and every one of these responses. I also did not characterize my view as “right” so no need for that suggestion/discussion.

Maybe the word majority is concerning? It should not be. I believe I am safe in saying the majority of fans the media showcased did support the plaintiffs. There were fans who came to support Katherine everyday at trial and those were the ones the media would interview. Many non-fans did believe AEG would be victorious simply because they are a very successful corporation with a powerful presence where the trial took place and there are some negatives regarding that status in civil trials for some. They saw the plaintiffs as underdogs.

"Majority of showcased" is a very different thing than the original post -- by more than 7 billion. (But since majorities can be and often are wrong, it doesn't serve to bolster much anyway.)
 
Last Tear, apologies, I did not mean to be rude. I posted the link below.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ckson-vs-AEG?p=3909587&viewfull=1#post3909587

The plaintiffs did not concede to question two but, the defense did concede to question four (the jurors did not have to deliberate on question four but did deliberate on question two) that stated the doctor’s unfitness or incompetence did harm Michael and the Jackson plaintiffs. It was jurors who found the doctor to be fit and competent.

Ivy said I held the minority view in this subforum which is correct. I have said it many times myself. However, it is not minority view outside of this subforum of a handful of members who took the time to post their views. Please note that many fans were photographed as well supporting the plaintiffs and they were not only a handful.


krikzil;3954162 said:
I was referring to the FOUR elements under CACI that plaintiffs must satisfy to prevail in negligent hiring, supervision or retention of an employee. "And" would be the key.

And what would be those four elements? I only see three connected by an “or” operator.

"Majority of showcased" is a very different thing than the original post -- by more than 7 billion. (But since majorities can be and often are wrong, it doesn't serve to bolster much anyway.)

No, I said it in the original post as well and strangely a discussion ensued regarding a poll.

I do agree with you however that the majority can be wrong; wrong indeed!
 
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@Tygger
Last Tear, apologies, I did not mean to be rude. I posted the link below.http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/th...=1#post3909587


The plaintiffs did not concede to question two but, the defense did concede to question four (the jurors did not have to deliberate on question four but did deliberate on question two) that stated the doctor’s unfitness or incompetence did harm Michael and the Jackson plaintiffs. It was jurors who found the doctor to be fit and competent.


Ivy said I held the minority view in this subforum which is correct. I have said it many times myself. However, it is not minority view outside of this subforum of a handful of members who took the time to post their views. Please note that many fans were photographed as well supporting the plaintiffs and they were not only a handful.

Thank you for posting the link. I am honestly interested because as I have stated numerous times I couldn't see how anyone could answer yes.
Plantiffs did conceded to Question 2 having established their concern with timing. But, I believe that they should have been more concerned with the actual words 'the job for which he was hired'. I note your answer was also based on timing, how do you get around the job description? The jury found Murray to be fit and competent to carry out general medical needs.

Tygger you cannot make claims of who hold the majority view, especially as this forum appeared to be split down the middle. In all honesty there are many different variables on how each of us feel. For example I have no emotional ties to AEG and I don't think very highly of them but I do believe the verdict was fair and just. On that note I think we should drop the subject of majority, it's not going to achieve anything and can't be proven on any side.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

I do agree with you however that the majority can be wrong; wrong indeed!

So glad the majority got it right this time! So glad that jury was objective and didn't forget the "for which he was hired" description which so many seem to ignore.

Sorry, couldn't help myself from responding here as I still remain surprised anybody or thing is viewed as responsible for what Conrad Murray did and did not do. When I get the picture in my mind of him pumping MJ with his concoction, and then leaving him to go play the lothario with his various women, I will never see how anyone else should be liable for those outrageous aberrant actions except Conrad Murray. AEG didn't make him to do that, they did not conflict him into doing that, he just did. Because he's an arrogant, thoughtless, self centered expletive expletive expletive....
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

Good post GerryEvans! Murray wasn't conflicted about anything. He was just reckless and greedy. He know as a medical doctor that what he was doing was unethical. He didn't care because he wanted MJ's money. He could've easily said no to MJ, this is not good for your or safe I will not do it and walk away and go back to his clinics.. He chose to do it. MJ didn't put a gun to his head. Murray's actions are just that, his actions.
 
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Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

So glad the majority got it right this time! So glad that jury was objective and didn't forget the "for which he was hired" description which so many seem to ignore.

Sorry, couldn't help myself from responding here as I still remain surprised anybody or thing is viewed as responsible for what Conrad Murray did and did not do. When I get the picture in my mind of him pumping MJ with his concoction, and then leaving him to go play the lothario with his various women, I will never see how anyone else should be liable for those outrageous aberrant actions except Conrad Murray. AEG didn't make him to do that, they did not conflict him into doing that, he just did. Because he's an arrogant, thoughtless, self centered expletive expletive expletive....

This post deserves to be quoted. Well said. Bravo.
 
Tygger;3954222 said:
The plaintiffs did not concede to question two but, the defense did concede to question four (the jurors did not have to deliberate on question four but did deliberate on question two) that stated the doctor’s unfitness or incompetence did harm Michael and the Jackson plaintiffs. It was jurors who found the doctor to be fit and competent.

His unfitness to administer anesthesia harmed MJ, not the general medical care for which he was fit.
 
Last Tear, the plaintiffs did not concede to question two. If they conceded, the jurors would not deliberate on that question. They did not concede to the wording of question two as they petitioned for a new trial based on that wording. AEG conceded to question four which said the doctor was unfit and incompetent and it harmed Michael and the plaintiffs. The jurors did not have to deliberate on that question.

You will notice my answer to question two did not focus on time of hire and I stated it at that time. If you go back a few posts/pages, you will see posters who were confused about timing and/or the question as it seems the jurors were as well. It is interesting that many preferred to utilize time of hire to absolve the doctor of negligence and in turn, AEG. Many have forgotten the contract was retroactive and was written while Michael was declining.

Last Tear, Serendipity, as for the jury finding the doctor “fit and competent to carry out general medical needs,” they clearly did not review evidence (as per the affidavits) which included Phillips and Gongaware’s testimony that stated neither recalled if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues. Do you remember some posters stating that a doctor helping a patient with sleep issues could be considered general care?

I did not “get around” the job description nor ignore it although; many have and do not realize it or purposefully have done so. No one can say with certainty that helping Michael with his sleep issues was part of the doctor’s job description or not. No one. It is only if one feels it is more likely than not.

Remember, the method to help Michael sleep is hindsight.

I will maintain my position on my views. I know the majority of posters in this subforum did not share my views on this civil trial. I also know my views are very acceptable to many outside of this subforum. There is nothing wrong with that.
 
Tygger;3954576 said:
I did not “get around” the job description nor ignore it although; many have and do not realize it or purposefully have done so. No one can say with certainty that helping Michael with his sleep issues was part of the doctor’s job description or not. No one. It is only if one feels it is more likely than not.

Remember, the method to help Michael sleep is hindsight.

But Harvard sleep specialists to the experts who practically wrote the book on propofol, have said with definitive certainty that an anesthesia is not a treatment for a sleep disorder, which means it could never be classed under a "general" care umbrella and be inherent in any job description, even if it was known MJ was being treated for sleep. While the method is hindsight, that method is a gross deviation from any standard of care for insomnia, and its use, coupled with Murray's negligence and being unqualified as an anesthesiologist is why MJ didn't make it through June 25.


I will maintain my position on my views. I know the majority of posters in this subforum did not share my views on this civil trial. I also know my views are very acceptable to many outside of this subforum. There is nothing wrong with that.

ITA...nothing wrong with any of us holding onto our views. The jury sat in that courtroom day in and day out for five months and shaped theirs based on what was presented and agreed to instructions.
 
Re: KJ vs AEG Trial outcome : Appeal

@Tygger

Last Tear, the plaintiffs did not concede to question two. If they conceded, the jurors would not deliberate on that question. They did not concede to the wording of question two as they petitioned for a new trial based on that wording. AEG conceded to question four which said the doctor was unfit and incompetent and it harmed Michael and the plaintiffs. The jurors did not have to deliberate on that question.

I was taking it that in your statement that AEG conceded to question 4 meant that they had concerns but in the end they agreed for it to be included. (?) Hence why I added that the Plantiffs conceded to question 2. The questions were in the agreed verdict forms and the jury did deliberate on question 2. Who knows, if the verdict had gone the other way maybe AEG would have used question 4 as part of a petition, which by your theory would mean that they wouldn't have conceded to it. I think we should just agree that both the Plantiffs and AEG conceded to those questions albeit reluctantly.

You will notice my answer to question two did not focus on time of hire and I stated it at that time. If you go back a few posts/pages, you will see posters who were confused about timing and/or the question as it seems the jurors were as well. It is interesting that many preferred to utilize time of hire to absolve the doctor of negligence and in turn, AEG. Many have forgotten the contract was retroactive and was written while Michael was declining.

No, not of time of hire but time (any), this was Panish's job to relay to the jury. The question was whether Murray was competent to carry out the work for which he was hired. I don't see how time of hire absolves the doctor of negligence, it's not even the question.
 
Tygger;3954576 said:
Last Tear, Serendipity, as for the jury finding the doctor “fit and competent to carry out general medical needs,” they clearly did not review evidence (as per the affidavits) which included Phillips and Gongaware’s testimony that stated neither recalled if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues. Do you remember some posters stating that a doctor helping a patient with sleep issues could be considered general care?

Tygger, the jurors HEARD the testimony first hand and they took notes etc. Maybe they didn't need to review it any further -- because treating a "sleep issue" is one thing, but administering anesthesia is completely different. If Phillips and Gongaware said they didn't recall if Murray was there to administer anesthesia, then I could see your point.

Treating a sleep issue with a sleeping pill could fall under general medical care. But administering anesthesia certainly does not.
 
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