Michael Jackson He Came He Moonwalked He Conquered

gemini27

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whether we like it or not, the trial and its aftermath will always be associated with michael. why fault john legend for mentioning it in his article? it is his own view and the way that part was mentioned..."But his personal life has tarnished his legacy. It's natural that people don't separate them. He's not held in the same positive light and I don't think that will ever change. Every artist has their ups and downs. But I think being accused of molesting children is a little bit extreme, even for a star." does not have the sound of sarcasm and surely there wasn't any intent to further taint michael's image to the public eye. his piece gleams of so much respect for michael as an artist that it almost sounds like a tribute!

i, for one, share his belief that whatever michael does,his scandal will always dog... him with or without articles such as the one by legend. michael jackson, the artist and michael jackson, the person has become such a blur that the viewing public can no longer separate one from the other. it's a pity. but that's reality
 

J5master

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the problem with Legend's statement is that he sounds like he's blaming Michael for getting accused of child molestation. LOL Which is silly. There were a lot of players in that. It's not all about his "personal life" and what he does behind closed doors, it's about a whole slew of things. IT's the way the whole thing is phrased. Like "Dang it MJ, things would've been great if you'd just didn't do that whole getting-accused-of-child-molestation-by-grifters thing. I mean, come on Mike, aint that extreme??? The whole getting falsely accused thing? Bad career move." That's how it sounds lol
 

giddyup87

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whether we like it or not, the trial and its aftermath will always be associated with michael. why fault john legend for mentioning it in his article? it is his own view and the way that part was mentioned..."But his personal life has tarnished his legacy. It's natural that people don't separate them. He's not held in the same positive light and I don't think that will ever change. Every artist has their ups and downs. But I think being accused of molesting children is a little bit extreme, even for a star." does not have the sound of sarcasm and surely there wasn't any intent to further taint michael's image to the public eye. his piece gleams of so much respect for michael as an artist that it almost sounds like a tribute!

i, for one, share his belief that whatever michael does,his scandal will always dog... him with or without articles such as the one by legend. michael jackson, the artist and michael jackson, the person has become such a blur that the viewing public can no longer separate one from the other. it's a pity. but that's reality[/b]


i disagree... we will see in 50 years, i predict that people will see things a bit more clearly.
 

gemini27

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well that's a loooooooot of years lol but really, it is also my hope that someday people will look at michael in a different light. maybe after 50 years all those who insists that he molests children will all be dead and gone lol and a new breed will emerge--those who are better informed, more open-minded, more discerning of the things they read and hear about michael
 
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Your right giddyup, in the end, the music and the performance ability of Michael Jackson will win out. Legend was wrong because he made the focul point of his article about the fact that Michael was accused of child molestation. He brought it up and made it a point to harp on about how its going to hinder his ability to come back. By doing so, he's as guilty as anyone of allowing those alligations to dictate Michael's chances. But Legend doesn't know anything, he's wrong, he's been in the industry for what, 3, 4 years, he's been through nothing. Michael's been through it all, through everything bad you can imagine, yet he still pulls in the ratings, he still pulls in the interest and the sales and the hystaria. He always will. The trial had no affect on that, it didn't, and you can see so by the publics reaction and the reaction of other artists to him. He's popular. If Michael's career was going to be destroyed, if his ability to make a successful project was going to be destroyed, believe you me, it would have happened long, long ago. It didn't, and it never will. His reputation has been slandard to as extreme an extent as ever its going to be, whatever damage they could have done has already been inflicted. Brining it up serves absolutely no purpose other then to bring it up, to keep the attention on it. Good job John. You defeated the supposed point of your own piece. However bad it got for Michael after 93, that was how bad it got publicity wise, that's the extent. Nobody believed him then, everyone thought he bought himself out of it, everyone was brainwashed because they had no other source other then the print news and media, and they LIED, they lied and lied and lied, and still, Michael came back with a number one record, hit singles, successful world tours and popularity unmatched by any other. That didn't destroy Michael or his career, and the trial certainly will not either. We all know its a reality that his image has been tarnished, but its when people like Legend bring it up again and again that it never is allowed to rest. He didn't help Michael, he simply hurt him some more. There was no point in that, he observed nothing of signifigance or revalation. He just dredged up more of the same ol' shit. In time, people won't care about the alligations anymore, because they'll realize more and more the unbelieveable talent they once had in their presence and still do, and if they're smart, they'll realize it completely while Michael is still around. I see it happening already. The media is the media, they'll always give Michael a hard time. They were calling him a freak in 1984, at the height of his popularity, they'll always do it, it doesn't matter, because those who are fans and even those who are not will always either buy his music or show interest in him, you'll even have potential furture fans because Michael's stuff constantly reaches people all over the world. Whose being negative, for real.
 

AngieJ

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Your right giddyup, in the end, the music and the performance ability of Michael Jackson will win out. Legend was wrong because he made the focul point of his article about the fact that Michael was accused of child molestation. He brought it up and made it a point to harp on about how its going to hinder his ability to come back. By doing so, he's as guilty as anyone of allowing those alligations to dictate Michael's chances. But Legend doesn't know anything, he's wrong, he's been in the industry for what, 3, 4 years, he's been through nothing. Michael's been through it all, through everything bad you can imagine, yet he still pulls in the ratings, he still pulls in the interest and the sales and the hystaria. He always will. The trial had no affect on that, it didn't, and you can see so by the publics reaction and the reaction of other artists to him. He's popular. If Michael's career was going to be destroyed, if his ability to make a successful project was going to be destroyed, believe you me, it would have happened long, long ago. It didn't, and it never will. His reputation has been slandard to as extreme an extent as ever its going to be, whatever damage they could have done has already been inflicted. Brining it up serves absolutely no purpose other then to bring it up, to keep the attention on it. Good job John. You defeated the supposed point of your own piece. However bad it got for Michael after 93, that was how bad it got publicity wise, that's the extent. Nobody believed him then, everyone thought he bought himself out of it, everyone was brainwashed because they had no other source other then the print news and media, and they LIED, they lied and lied and lied, and still, Michael came back with a number one record, hit singles, successful world tours and popularity unmatched by any other. That didn't destroy Michael or his career, and the trial certainly will not either. We all know its a reality that his image has been tarnished, but its when people like Legend bring it up again and again that it never is allowed to rest. He didn't help Michael, he simply hurt him some more. There was no point in that, he observed nothing of signifigance or revalation. He just dredged up more of the same ol' shit. In time, people won't care about the alligations anymore, because they'll realize more and more the unbelieveable talent they once had in their presence and still do, and if they're smart, they'll realize it completely while Michael is still around. I see it happening already. The media is the media, they'll always give Michael a hard time. They were calling him a freak in 1984, at the height of his popularity, they'll always do it, it doesn't matter, because those who are fans and even those who are not will always either buy his music or show interest in him, you'll even have potential furture fans because Michael's stuff constantly reaches people all over the world. Whose being negative, for real.[/b]


Well said.
 

gemini27

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i hate to disagree but i must say that legend certainly did not make the molestation charges the focal point of his article. in fact it was only mentioned in the context of michael's image as being tarnished as a result of that scandal-- and to an extent, is true! for sure, people will remember him as a great artist(because he really is!) but certainly it has caused damage to his career. i don't know why some cannot seem to accept that. the damage i am talking about resulted in dwindling record sales. he had to lie low for a while to let off some steam from media attacks. he needs time to rebuild himself and get things together. in a battle, u have to plan your strategy to win a war. it is never won an a whim. that's exactly what michael and his camp has been doing all these years. this is what i meant when i said that timing is everything. michael certainly deserves to be up there once more sad to say, talent alone is not enough to propel anyone to stardom.

now back to legend..i don't know how to say things in a manner as not to sound like his p.r. manager but i did not even think his article can hurt michael some more as alleged by wannabe. what is there to hurt when as a lot of you has mentioned repeatedly on different threads that everything has been thrown at him that at this point nothing can hurt him anymore. if that's the case, why be bothered by legend's passing comment when overall the article is full of respect for michael's talent?
 

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i hate to disagree but i must say that legend certainly did not make the molestation charges the focal point of his article. in fact it was only mentioned in the context of michael's image as being tarnished as a result of that scandal-- and to an extent, is true! for sure, people will remember him as a great artist(because he really is!) but certainly it has caused damage to his career. i don't know why some cannot seem to accept that. the damage i am talking about resulted in dwindling record sales. he had to lie low for a while to let off some steam from media attacks. he needs time to rebuild himself and get things together. in a battle, u have to plan your strategy to win a war. it is never won an a whim. that's exactly what michael and his camp has been doing all these years. this is what i meant when i said that timing is everything. michael certainly deserves to be up there once more sad to say, talent alone is not enough to propel anyone to stardom.

now back to legend..i don't know how to say things in a manner as not to sound like his p.r. manager but i did not even think his article can hurt michael some more as alleged by wannabe. what is there to hurt when as a lot of you has mentioned repeatedly on different threads that everything has been thrown at him that at this point nothing can hurt him anymore. if that's the case, why be bothered by legend's passing comment when overall the article is full of respect for michael's talent?[/b]

Exactly!
 

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I just hope that they he gets his stuff played on the radio here. But JL did make a valid point: some peeps don't separate the music from the rep.[/b]
True but you are always going to have a few people to do that.
 

terrell

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> Believe me, Michael sales were going to fall regardless to these claims or not (Does Prince sell like he did with Purple Rain? NO just like Paul M, Bruce, and all others from Michael's era do not sell like that any more or any up to date artist). Yes, he needed to lay low after the claims but still I do not believe OVERALL the claims hurt his career but I do think he hurt his reputation.
 
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Legend hurt Michael in the sense that he's contradicting himself and being hypocritical, by continuing to bring up the accusations when in the same breath he's trying to say its too bad. Its too bad John, but you're the one making it so, that people won't let it go. In the end, it won't matter, because its just another rain drop in an already full bucket. His reputation is already damaged, nobody ever said it wasn't, I'm just saying it won't be any worse now then its ever been and I truly do fail to see how the trial has done more harm to Michael. Legend made it the focus of his article because he centered the whole crutch of his argument about Michael being able to make a comeback on the alligations alone, not on his talent. It is Michael's talent which has kept him from being destroyed, because he's unique. But the thing that sticks out in his article is that its "extreme" for Michael to have been accused of molesting children, he makes it seem as though that dwindles his chances greatly, and it doesn't. As I said, its already happened, that storm has already passed, and its not going to make a differnce any more. If it was, it would have happened, and it has, 14 years ago, it already happened. Whatever could have been done has been, Michael reputation by 2003 was so f***** that it was absurd, it was as low as it was gonna get, its gotten better since then. You can tell.
 

AngieJ

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Believe me, Michael sales were going to fall regardless to these claims or not (Does Prince sell like he did with Purple Rain? NO just like Paul M, Bruce, and all others from Michael's era do not sell like that any more or any up to date artist).[/b]


I don't know why, but MJ's sales are always used against him. People totally ignore the fact that MJ still sells more than most of his much more held up peers.
 

terrell

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I don't know why, but MJ's sales are always used against him. People totally ignore the fact that MJ still sells more than most of his much more held up peers.[/b]
Exaclty. And those artist do not gone through what Michael have gone through.
 

john13th

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Sales of Michaels album went up 2000 % at Amazon shortly after he was acquitted.
 

Timmy84

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I don't know why, but MJ's sales are always used against him. People totally ignore the fact that MJ still sells more than most of his much more held up peers.[/b]

If I can be real, I think the mention of how many sales MJ sold over the years has also overshadowed the major element of Michael Jackson - his talent.

Also, we have to realize that real music fans never dig Mike because he allegedly sold 100 million of one record, they dig Mike for what he did over the years as a performer, singer, songwriter and musician. That's what John was saying. The allegations have hindered MJ's legacy though it's not totally destroyed, he wasn't saying that. But people see what they wanna see and bring it up as if it's supposed to be debated.
 

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well that's a loooooooot of years lol but really, it is also my hope that someday people will look at michael in a different light. maybe after 50 years all those who insists that he molests children will all be dead and gone lol and a new breed will emerge--those who are better informed, more open-minded, more discerning of the things they read and hear about michael[/b]

Exactly. Also we have to deal with the criticism Mike often gets. In this day and age, it's easy to overlook MJ in a music sense for those obsessed with celebrity.
 

AngieJ

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If I can be real, I think the mention of how many sales MJ sold over the years has also overshadowed the major element of Michael Jackson - his talent.

Also, we have to realize that real music fans never dig Mike because he allegedly sold 100 million of one record, they dig Mike for what he did over the years as a performer, singer, songwriter and musician. That's what John was saying. The allegations have hindered MJ's legacy though it's not totally destroyed, he wasn't saying that. But people see what they wanna see and bring it up as if it's supposed to be debated.[/b]


I can accept what John said. I was just saying to Terrell that 90% of the time when you see a discussion about MJ's career, for some strange reason his sales are always used against him.
 

Timmy84

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I can accept what John said. I was just saying to Terrell that 90% of the time when you see a discussion about MJ's career, for some strange reason his sales are always used against him.[/b]

Yeah I know. :lol: I was just saying my piece. I hate when sales are brought in. They're only supposed to be brought in CELEBRATION not in trying to "prove something". When it's used like that, it's just as ignorant as those who want us to believe that Michael is some monster.
 

mello1

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I will never buy the thought that being honest means always mentioning the allegations or trial in every discussion about Michael Jackson. If you are talking about overcoming major public relations and personal obstacles, then okay. If you are talking about the problems that he might face with a new promotional campaign, then okay. If you are talking about his personal strength, then okay.

But, talking about his contributions to music? Talking about his influence in terms of music videos? Talking about his drive for future success in the music industry? It has nothing to do with it.

I think that Michael has many friends and family who are honest with him and know him to the core. But, I don't think every discussion they have with him has some insertion about the allegations or the trial.

Vogue is an example in terms of focusing on Michael as a performer/entertainer/legend. What they were after had nothing to do with the allegations and trial and they kept it that way. John Legend should have done so too since he had no insight from the man himself about his drive to get past such and back into the music business. Apparently he didn't think that the allegations left such a big scar or tarnish on his legacy that he wasn't willing to work on music for him. Most don't accept working with those that they truly see as tarnished. I do believe like others have said that some people simply think that they must mention the allegations in order to be perceived as "honest" and "keeping it real."

But, truly, "keeping it real" is treating the man as if he was acquitted on 14 counts after every thing in the book was thrown at him during trial. And "keeping it real" is treating the man as if prior allegations never even made it to criminal court because grand juries refused to indict--keep in mind, grand juries, who have the reputations for "indicting ham sandwiches." Anyone wants to be honest about what Michael Jackson is dealing with--then that is it in a nutshell. The rest has nothing to do with honesty or being real about Michael's situation in terms of public perception; it is about attempts to hang a cloud over his held.[/b]
Or more importantly, staying in good standing with those 'thems' who believe that they are the masters of the universe and they can make or break artists. Somehow, if you stand with MJ without condition or qualification, that will make peeps look at you sideways. Or, to the real, peeps won't buy yo' CDs anymore.

This is what I think about it -- on the real: I think that the artist and media community knows that Michael has the talent and the unbreakable fanbase to pull off major success as they define it in their eyes. While the haters in those ranks will tow the populists' line, others are just sitting back and waiting to see what will happen with him. If he pulls it off, then they would not have said anything publically (overly critical of his persona, that is) that would damage a chance to work with him or collaborate with him on something. If he doesn't -- then, oh well. No harm, no foul. They get to move on.

I do really think that there are those even within that community that are pulling for MJ to pull it off.
 

mello1

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i hate to disagree but i must say that legend certainly did not make the molestation charges the focal point of his article. in fact it was only mentioned in the context of michael's image as being tarnished as a result of that scandal-- and to an extent, is true! for sure, people will remember him as a great artist(because he really is!) but certainly it has caused damage to his career. i don't know why some cannot seem to accept that. the damage i am talking about resulted in dwindling record sales. he had to lie low for a while to let off some steam from media attacks. he needs time to rebuild himself and get things together. in a battle, u have to plan your strategy to win a war. it is never won an a whim. that's exactly what michael and his camp has been doing all these years. this is what i meant when i said that timing is everything. michael certainly deserves to be up there once more sad to say, talent alone is not enough to propel anyone to stardom.

now back to legend..i don't know how to say things in a manner as not to sound like his p.r. manager but i did not even think his article can hurt michael some more as alleged by wannabe. what is there to hurt when as a lot of you has mentioned repeatedly on different threads that everything has been thrown at him that at this point nothing can hurt him anymore. if that's the case, why be bothered by legend's passing comment when overall the article is full of respect for michael's talent?[/b]
I can't really argue with that, good points. Yet I also agree with giddy that in time, his music will become greater than the man. I really do believe that.
 

mello1

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> Believe me, Michael sales were going to fall regardless to these claims or not (Does Prince sell like he did with Purple Rain? NO just like Paul M, Bruce, and all others from Michael's era do not sell like that any more or any up to date artist). Yes, he needed to lay low after the claims but still I do not believe OVERALL the claims hurt his career but I do think he hurt his reputation.[/b]
I don't know the numbers, so I'm not really sure about this, but I think that there are a marked drop off between Dangerous and HIStory, especially stateside. It never really occurred to me, but Invincible may have been hurt by 9/11. I know that Mariah Carey's 'Glitter' CD was, as I don't think it was so much trashy (well the movie may have been), as it was released on 9/11. MJ's 30th Anniversary Show aired on 9/10 and he was debuting his single 'YRMW' at that time. It would have been interesting to see what would have occurred without 9/11 being in the mix, but all in all, I think that there are many factors involved and not just one.

That is why I hope peeps don't stroke out if the next MJ project doesn't sell XX million in the States. I mean, it could happen, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's a bad project, given how much the music scene has changed over the years.
 

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Maybe in some peoples minds. Not everyone feels that way. It can't be so bad, every artist I see now these days try to sing dance or dress like him.[/b]

But what does that have to do with it? I never said his legacy...musical legacy is erased. Anyone who would say that is a moron because all you have to do is look around and you'll see otherwise. But the name "Michael Jackson" has been tarnished and I don't think that's a matter of opinion.
 

nevaehdreamz

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That is why I hope peeps don't stroke out if the next MJ project doesn't sell XX million in the States. I mean, it could happen, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's a bad project, given how much the music scene has changed over the years.[/b]

Someone should tell MJ this too. People put too much pressure on him and he probably ends up thinking certain projects are failures when they aren't.

Invincible sold about 350,000 the first week in the US. That's not too bad these days, especially for an artist that's been out for as long as Michael has. That number is pretty average for record releases now days, but of course when it comes to Michael...they make it like it's unheard of for anyone to sell that low.
 

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man, we really ripping this article apart.. damn!! lol!

We are putting more thought into it, than he did..
 

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well John Legends' last album went wood, and he doesn't even have any scandals. :lol:
 

mello1

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Someone should tell MJ this too. People put too much pressure on him and he probably ends up thinking certain projects are failures when they aren't.

Invincible sold about 350,000 the first week in the US. That's not too bad these days, especially for an artist that's been out for as long as Michael has. That number is pretty average for record releases now days, but of course when it comes to Michael...they make it like it's unheard of for anyone to sell that low.[/b]
I don't think that he has that view anymore.
 

TrennyP

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But what does that have to do with it? I never said his legacy...musical legacy is erased. Anyone who would say that is a moron because all you have to do is look around and you'll see otherwise. But the name "Michael Jackson" has been tarnished and I don't think that's a matter of opinion.[/b]
John said that Michael's "legacy" was tarnished and I see more artists celebrating his legacy than ever. I see other celebrities wearing MJ T-shirts and artists wearing the one glove and even Chris Brown dedicated a part of his performance to pay homage to MJ. And every artist who is asked by an interviewer "who is your idol" or "where do you get you inspiration?" those artis don't have any problem saying the name Michael Jackson.
 
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well John Legends' last album went wood, and he doesn't even have any scandals. :lol:[/b]

Well there you go then, it about sums it up, lol.

My only point was, yes Michael's image is tarnished, has been for well over 10 years, but it never has heavily hindered his ABILITY to be commercially successful. If what happened to him in 93 didn't destroy him in that sense, niether will the trial have, that's what Legend implied, that Michael had some more massive obstacle to over come then he did then, and I just don't see it that way, not by a long shot. I think he's in a better position, as far as image goes, then he was then. His ability to be commercially successful is not going to be any more hindered by the trial then already it has been. He came out of 93 with the biggest selling two disc set ever, a number one album, numerous hit singles and a record breaking world tour. You have to understand, in 93, Michael was torn apart in the most horrific manner imaginable, there was nothing to counter the lies, there was no internet, no trial, no disemination of information, it was just story after story about how he did this and that. It was bad and people turned on him faster then you can say lickity split. But he was still able to be commercially successful and produce a record that had an estimated earning rate of 1 billion dollars attatched to it. He could have done that with Invincible if Sony hadn't screwed him and the project and the whole thing hadn't fallen through in every way. That's what I've been saying. Legend doesn't grasp that Michael's already been through the worst of it and it never did stop him from being successful, EVER. Never, ever did it stop him. It hurt him, but it didn't keep him from achieving greatness or breaking further records.
 
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