Michael Jackson's attitude towards women in his music

[somewhereinthedark]

This is a bunch of bullshit. I was on board with this thread and topic but stop posting this tabloid garbage.

I expect much more from you Frenzy. This is disappointing to read. MJ dedicated his entire life for philanthropic causes. He went above and beyond so much that it actually hurt his bank account. A lot of the stuff he did wasn't even disclosed to the public such as donating money to the school that got shot up or many of the things he did overseas. There is an entire thread about that here on this forum. For you to come here and post that tabloid garbage here insinuating that a cause he spent his entire life fighting for was a PR trick is disappointing and insulting.

Why would you expect anything different from MJ frenzy%? He/she has always been negative about Michael and relied heavily on TABLOID gossip. I guess frenzy didn’t know that Bob Jones turned traitor on Michael and wrote a disparaging book about him. I think this was after Michael fired him. I’ve always thought frenzy was not a real fan and only here to divide and conquer the fans. Btw, evidently frenzy doesn’t realize that Michael left a third of his Estate to CHARITY, especially Children’s charities. How the hell is that a publicity stunt when Michael is no longer here and it’s in his will? Michael’s entire life was about giving and charity. His son Prince is doing the same thing. IMO, You really need to leave the MJ fandom if you are going to lie on him, use tabloid crap as your reference, or take any opportunity to throw “shade” under the guise of being objective. I’m sorry with a “fan” like you, who needs enemies?

 

[somewhereinthedark]

Is Frenzy actually an MJ fan? A lot of the posts are full of tabloid source BS

I’ve never thought he/she was a fan. More like a “Trojan Horse”. Sneaky and deceptive. It’s always been obvious to me. However, there are some who argue that Frenzy is being “objective”. Yeah right.

Roger Friedman hasn't been quoted yet!

 

[somewhereinthedark]

That's what I've been wondering ever since I joined this forum and it is getting tiring. I've never seen him post anything positive about Michael and every time he creates a thread he tends to denigrate him and always talks about some false rumours or theories which are not based in fact, at all.

Going back to this ridiculous topic: writing negative songs about particular women and about particular situations in which certain women are involved does not mean that one's perception of all women, or even most women, is negative!

How is he portraying women in a bad light in TWYMMF? Tatiana was playing hard to get but you can even see her laughing and smiling at some point and eventually, she hugs him at the end. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong about a man trying to "serenade" his love interest and get her attention as long as she doesn't seem to be intimidated or frightened in any way. This has been happening since forever.

How about other songs he wrote about women which you didn't mention, Frenzy?

-I Just Can't Stop Loving You
-Liberian Girl
-The Girl Is Mine
-P.Y.T (Demo)
-Remember The Time
-Beautiful Girl
-Love Never Felt So Good
-Loving You
-Lovely One
-The Way You Love Me

Frenzy ALWAYS focuses on the negative when it comes to Michael. My question is why is he/she a fan. I could NEVER be a fan of someone if I always found faults or always tried to find negativity in everything they did. I would never able to enjoy their music or work. It’s strange. Just saying.

 

[Hess]

TWYMMF is one of my favorite musicvideos. - And the way MJ looks is the perfect MJ IMO.
I see nothing wrong in the video (but I can see why a 2022 perspective can make it look bad if you really want it to)
MJ likes a girl - and it seems clear to me, that the girl in the video also likes MJ nad plays hard to get - and she really enjoys the "chase" - and her friends are laughing and playing along.

MJ did philantrophic songs years before it became modern. - When MJ wrote Earth Song (before Dangerous I think??) in the early 1990's climate change and all of that was not yet a big issue. Heal the World - same story.

MJ was many years ahead of the rest os us. - Many people only started taking climate change serious in the 2010's...

So to claim that it was just a tactic for MJ to be popular... I don't even know what to say... Stupid, riddiculos, idiotic - just a few words that comes to mind... I have absolutely no doubt that MJ was 100% honest and cared so much for the planet, the old, the sick, the poor - he cared for everyone, no matter gender, sexuality, race, religion... He just saw human beings. If everyone was like that we would have no war... - and he sang about that many times. TMBMTLTT, People of the World etc. etc.

 

[SoS]

Michael was an incredibly private person for obvious reasons.

The people who’ve worked with him, for his purposes were just as much “the public” as the public was because every human witnessing anything about his personal moves would be most likely to “report” his private life, which they in fact did, at least insofar as they saw (or didn’t see).

He put his observations, feelings and life experiences in his music and hid some information in those songs that were intended to let someone he had dealings with, know how he was feeling about this and that between the two of them.

Since he couldn’t alienate his female fans, these names of females are hidden in songs if we listened carefully enough but those who the messages are addressed to can hear it just fine which MJ knew would happen because he’s studied the human brain and mind and the reticular attention system of the brain is one of those things he knew would effectively “communicate” to whom it was intended.

I believe there are males who crush on MJ who refuse to accept that he loved himself some women.

Dissapointments, misunderstandings, insecurities, characterized the down sides of his relationships just like everyone else and he wrote about it.

The only thing that I agree with is how loving songs are not necessarily the majority of his catalog but again, it’s exactly because he was writing about real life, not just ooooh baby baby...although a good many of them are very loving songs including those he wrote himself listed by someone above.

Remember he traveled a lot and was busy all the time and some conversations happened one-way...a continuation of a previous one without the chick being present. You can see that from the way he starts some songs as if he’s either, in the middle of a conversation and it’s his turn to “talk” or he’s “explaining” himself and his actions.

Eg., “I thought she HAD to have “it”. CLHGA

Hints in sound effects to explain his upset Eg.,the “thud” sound of someone getting hit by a car at the beginning of SDMW (someone who refused to ride with him?)

Indistinguishable lyrics throughout an entire song

Eg., Serious Effect where the one thing we clearly hear is the hook and a few main points eg., “I’ve got a soul player and I’m so dam glad about it” since he figured out she was serious. Same Dangerous session as, “I thought she had to have it” and other songs that combined tell a story.

Michael made the art of beginning, middle and end (storytelling) happen in a unique way that listeners will continually unfold over time, especially after they get to replaying the same songs repeatedly because he wrote in layers like an onion and there’s much more to his music than the dominant sounds. Genius.

These are a very few examples of songs that are clearly interpersonal one on one situations impo and it seems really obvious to my ears.

Again I’m sorry but I do believe that some people desperately need for MJ to “hate” women like they do. It’s called projection.

... which they obviously prefer rather than to listen to the man’s own writings in his own voice.

No offense intended

 

[SoS]

It doesn’t need much to be called a misogynist these days. The only controversial song in there is “abortion papers”.MJ is all about melody and vocal delivery/arrangement I think often lyrics were almost an afterthought in his

This is what being misogynistic means

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women. It is a form of sexismthat keeps women at a lower social status than men, thus maintaining the societal roles of patriarchy. Misogyny has been widely practiced for thousands of years. It is reflected in art, literature, human societal structure, historical events, mythology, philosophy, and religion worldwide.

MJ never expressed any of these ideas, ever. MJ was all about empowerment and inclusivity. MJ hired female dancers, female singers, female photographers, etc. He never said anything that would even suggest of him being a misogynist.

When MJ wrote songs he drew a lot from personal experiences. These were the experiences he had of the other sex since he was a child, so it’s no wonder he had a somewhat skewed view. Many of these songs aren’t even bad songs about women in general. For example streetwalker. I don’t see what the gripe is about the title becaus streetwalker is just another name for a call girl, which is legal in some places of the world, including US. so the title in itself isn’t bad. When you listen to the song it’s about a man being in love with a woman despite her profession. I don’t see how this song is misogynistic as it does not condemn this profession.

To frenzy
In what way is the way you make me feel a misogynistic song? Lol, so are we just calling love songs misogynistic now?

Thank you.

The only interpretation difference I have is the chick isn’t a sex worker and other than the term, “street Walker” there’s nothing that implies that she was anyone other than this chick he was watching who walked literally everywhere.

I believe he was fascinated by this girl he knew on a level beyond just seeing a pretty street worker. Seems he looks from somewhere and notices her simply walking to and fro as in a major city where people do that.

Since he says, “I’ve got kisses for your lovin” (not money) “I really get it when you’re next to me” (he’s been close to her)
“Every day I watch you paint the town...” (watching her go about her life)


“Give me some time with you” which sex workers wouldn’t even remotely consider especially someone “famously rich”

and mainly because he wants to take her to his home

which is highly unlikely if she’s a money worker from the streets, given his paranoia about gold diggers

and not new at all to a simply pretty face...

and he wants to get this girl away from her rut of coming and going so he wants to show her the world (Paris, New York) which is quite an investment of his time etc. which implies someone he sees as quality (worth a lot of his personal time) which we found out in Who Is It that he’d never take a chance on wasting if he could foresee in advance that she could take him for granted.

.and taking a chance on her selling herself to some random man ...(as Who Is It shows us just how paranoid he was of his friends and his brothers potential to go behind his back with his woman)

And he knew her on a level because he never met anyone quite like her which says something more than just watching a prostitute walk.

but I can certainly see why Streetwalker would conjur up that image.

I’d like to think it’s the same person he may have had in mind for Fly Away also recorded during the Bad sessions.

 

[Hiker]

Thank you.

The only interpretation difference I have is the chick isn’t a sex worker and other than the term, “street Walker” there’s nothing that implies that she was anyone other than this chick he was watching who walked literally everywhere.

I believe he was fascinated by this girl he knew on a level beyond just seeing a pretty street worker. Seems he looks from somewhere and notices her simply walking to and fro as in a major city where people do that.

Since he says, “I’ve got kisses for your lovin” (not money) “I really get it when you’re next to me” (he’s been close to her)
“Every day I watch you paint the town...” (watching her go about her life)


“Give me some time with you” which sex workers wouldn’t even remotely consider especially someone “famously rich”

and mainly because he wants to take her to his home

which is highly unlikely if she’s a money worker from the streets, given his paranoia about gold diggers

and not new at all to a simply pretty face...

and he wants to get this girl away from her rut of coming and going so he wants to show her the world (Paris, New York) which is quite an investment of his time etc. which implies someone he sees as quality (worth a lot of his personal time) which we found out in Who Is It that he’d never take a chance on wasting if he could foresee in advance that she could take him for granted.

.and taking a chance on her selling herself to some random man ...(as Who Is It shows us just how paranoid he was of his friends and his brothers potential to go behind his back with his woman)

And he knew her on a level because he never met anyone quite like her which says something more than just watching a prostitute walk.

but I can certainly see why Streetwalker would conjur up that image.

I’d like to think it’s the same person he may have had in mind for Fly Away also recorded during the Bad sessions.

I think we are reading way too much into the meanings of these songs in relation to Michael's true thoughts and feelings. He says so in Moonwalk BTW. The songs are mostly about some fictional character.

 

[mj_frenzy]

So, uhm...how do these two go together in your mind?

These two can go together because he made these statements about women during private conversations which never meant to see the light of day.

Hints in sound effects to explain his upset Eg.,the “thud” sound of someone getting hit by a car at the beginning of SDMW (someone who refused to ride with him?)

Teddy Riley experimented on 'She Drives Me Wild' with a sample CD that he had.

All the sounds effects on this song were Teddy Riley's idea, and he spoke about that in one of his interviews.

The only interpretation difference I have is the chick isn’t a sex worker and other than the term, “street Walker” there’s nothing that implies that she was anyone other than this chick he was watching who walked literally everywhere.

The theme of 'Streetwalker' clearly has to do with a sex worker.

Michael Jackson cannot come to terms with the fact that she so easily abandoned him (after their brief affair), and she then went to find another guy (which is actually what she does for living).

This is the reason why 'Streetwalker' has been described as the dark version of the 'The Way You Make Me Feel' song.

 

[dethorro]

These two can go together because he made these statements about women during private conversations which never meant to see the light of day.

Yet he wrote songs about women and portrayed them in a negative light, remember?

 

[mj_frenzy]

David Lee Roth: music critics like Elvis Costello because they look like Elvis Costello.

Are these the same critics who praise artists like N.W.A., Rolling Stones, Tupac Shakur, Eminem, & Johnny Cash. Johnny Cash has Folsom County Blues where he talks about shooting a man "just to watch him die". The Stones has Brown Sugar which is about making out with a Black slave woman. They also have Some Girls. There's Fleetwood Mac and their 1970s soap opera songs about each other, they're also a band critics praise. Tupac has Hit Em Up where he claims he slept with Biggie's wife Faith Evans and also puts down Lil Kim & Puff Daddy who were also in Biggie's camp. Eminem has songs trashing his mother and his ex-wife Kim. Yet Rolling Stone magazine called Eminem "The King of Hip Hop". Even Beyoncé, who is close to having more Grammys than anyone else, has Nasty Girl with Destiny's Child. Which is ironic, considering how she dresses now, lol. N.W.A. had the highest grossing biopic before the Queen one passed it up and they have songs like Automobile. Silk Sonic is a recent group that is praised and they have Smokin' Out The Window. I think it's supposed to be a funny song, but still it's not really positive.

Some of the music critics, while reviewing the 'Dirty Diana' song, give reasonable arguments about their unfavourable opinion of the song.

For example, John Tatlock opines that 'Dirty Diana' lyrically does not convince because Michael Jackson was never convincing in this kind of role, a boy-child trying to write a song about a persistent groupie who is the kind of woman that the singer never meets in the kind of places he has certainly never been to.

Or, Tom Breihan who states that 'Dirty Diana' represents a strange take on the kind of misogyny that was so prevalent in the glam metal/rock of the time.

Others write that 'Dirty Diana' has an artificial feel to it and that it sounds like a manufactured move (on Michael Jackson's part) which seeks approval from fans of heavy metal music.

Or, that in 'Dirty Diana' Michael Jackson lyrically sounds rehashed when the single is compared to his two previous singles with a similar theme, namely 'This Place Hotel' (1980) and 'Billie Jean' (1982).

 

[staywild23]

LMAO not convincing that MICHAEL JACKSON would have groupies throwing themselves at him?!

Clearly these "reviewers" were not women lol.

 

[filmandmusic]

These reviewers sound so desperate to write a negative review ffs. Not a single of those reviews are actually about the music itself, the vocal performance or the guitar riff it all doesn't matter because Michael was a boy child, what is so manufactured about it, every song is manufactured. It sounds lyrically rehashed? What does this even mean? I bet they didn't say this when The Beach Boys released their next surf song or when the the Ramones released yet another completely same sounding punk track.
It is being negative for the sake of it, if Aerosmith recorded this they would have loved it.

I don't understand how bitter one can be when writing a review, get a life and another profession please.

 

[DuranDuran]

For example, John Tatlock opines that 'Dirty Diana' lyrically does not convince because Michael Jackson was never convincing in this kind of role, a boy-child trying to write a song about a persistent groupie who is the kind of woman that the singer never meets in the kind of places he has certainly never been to.

Also, what about Mike & Marlon hiding under the bed in hotels while the older brothers slept with groupies? The Jackson 5 played in strip clubs too before they got a record deal.

 

[staywild23]

Also, what about Mike & Marlon hiding under the bed in hotels while the older brothers slept with groupies? The Jackson 5 played in strip clubs too before they got a record deal.

Yes!

But, beyond that... it doesn't matter where he went or spent time. When you're Michael Jackson, the environment is negligible. All he had to do was exist as a person and he had women losing their minds. I would happily provide receipts of my own strong feelings on the matter, but I'll spare you all. Point is, the man has been gone for 13 years and he could still get it. I am just forever laughing at this notion that him fighting off groupies is somehow unrealistic. Maybe in the minds of some very insecure men, but that's about it.

 

[filmandmusic]

I would happily provide receipts of my own strong feelings on the matter, but I'll spare you all.

Thank God!

 

[staywild23]

Thank God!

That would send this thread in a whole other (glorious) direction! 2bad lol.

 

[Hiker]

That would send this thread in a whole other (glorious) direction! 2bad lol.

too bad too bad about it! I would enjoy that conversation So would @filmandmusic , though only secretly

 

[SoS]

These two can go together because he made these statements about women during private conversations which never meant to see the light of day.

Teddy Riley experimented on 'She Drives Me Wild' with a sample CD that he had.

All the sounds effects on this song were Teddy Riley's idea, and he spoke about that in one of his interviews.

The theme of 'Streetwalker' clearly has to do with a sex worker.

Michael Jackson cannot come to terms with the fact that she so easily abandoned him (after their brief affair), and she then went to find another guy (which is actually what she does for living).

This is the reason why 'Streetwalker' has been described as the dark version of the 'The Way You Make Me Feel' song.

Where does it say she went to another guy in Streetwalker? Or that that’s what she does for a living?

 

[mj_frenzy]

Where does it say she went to another guy in Streetwalker? Or that that’s what she does for a living?

It is implied from the lyrics.

Note also that at point he says that he wants to take her away from that job, by traveling together to various places around the world (like, New York City, Paris, France).

Also, both Quincy Jones and Frank DiLeo dismissed Michael Jackson's idea about including it on the album apparently because the album would have sounded too misogynistic.

 

[dethorro]

Also, both Quincy Jones and Frank DiLeo dismissed Michael Jackson's idea about including it on the album apparently because the album would have sounded too misogynistic.

No they didn't. Stop trying to pass off your own opinions as facts! This was never an issue and certainly not something that people were talking about or thinking about in Michael's camp.

Michael wanted Streetwalker to be on the album, Quincy simply liked Another Part Of Me more. That's it! It has nothing to do with the subject matter of the songs or the cohesion of the album, per se.

 

[staywild23]

No they didn't. Stop trying to pass your own opinions as facts! This was never an issue and certainly not something that people were talking about or thinking about in Michael's camp.

Michael wanted Streetwalker to be on the album, Quincy simply liked Another Part Of Me more. That's it! It has nothing to do with the subject matter of the songs or the cohesion of the album, per se.

It feels like such aggressive trolling, it is hard to take any of it seriously (which I don't).

 

[Nite Line]

Frenzy gives his opinions and makes them out to be facts. That is quite harmful especially if you are a new Michael Jackson fan and don’t know much about him, you might believe the nonsense that Frenzy spouts.

 

[dethorro]

Frenzy gives his opinions and makes them out to be facts. That is quite harmful especially if you are a new Michael Jackson fan and don’t know much about him, you might believe the nonsense that Frenzy spouts.

Right. And he continues to do it after having been warned numerous times and after having been asked to stop.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I think fans worry more about the lyrics to Michael's feel good dance songs, than he ever did to be honest.
The lyrics never upset anyone previously

 

[Lord Jackson]

Michael wanted Streetwalker to be on the album, Quincy simply liked Another Part Of Me more. That's it!

Actually it's Frank who "decided" APOM was better when he started dancing to it

 

[mj_frenzy]

About 'Streetwalker':

Given that there was another song that Michael Jackson wanted to include on the album but it also failed to make the album because the song could have been perceived lyrically as too controversial and misogynistic ('Abortion Papers'), this seems to give more credence to the theory that 'Streetwalker' was also rejected by his team for the same reason.

Also, what about Mike & Marlon hiding under the bed in hotels while the older brothers slept with groupies? The Jackson 5 played in strip clubs too before they got a record deal.

The music critic means that Michael Jackson never had personal, sexual experiences with groupies.

Of course, some of his brothers from the band did have such experiences.

For example, it would have been convincing if Jermaine Jackson wrote such lyrics given his sexual experiences with them (such as, with Yolanda Lewis).

According to her own words, the then-groupie Yolanda Lewis was sixteen at that time, and Jermaine Jackson called her to come up to his room when the band performed in Cleveland (1972).

 

[Hiker]

About 'Streetwalker':

Given that there was another song that Michael Jackson wanted to include on the album but it also failed to make the album because the song could have been perceived lyrically as too controversial and misogynistic ('Abortion Papers'), this seems to give more credence to the theory that 'Streetwalker' was also rejected by his team for the same reason.

Are we talking about the same Streetwalker song? The one that goes "never met a girl just like you" "baby I love you"? It is such an upbeat song. Do people know that songs are fictional, just like stories. There is probably not an actual Streetwalker who Michael loves!

Abortion Papers is a different story, I want to forget he wrote it, I want to ask him what he was thinking! Maybe he was pro-life and he wanted to express that. Maybe he did not think about it because, well, he was not a woman. Maybe given his religious background, he thought it was ok. I don't even know what was going on in the world at the time he wrote it. So in his own words - unless I sat down with him and talked song by song about what he meant, what is his real personal opinion vs lyrics that fit the melody, I have no right to judge him.

If you want to believe every word that Michael wrote, then read Moonwalk. On page 110, he says "it always surprises me when people assume that something an artist has created is based on a true experience or reflects his or her own lifestyle. Often nothing could be farther from the truth."

 

[filmandmusic]

We don’t know if he had groupies coming to his room but I have seen MJ collecting notes from fans on stage with what I presume would be phone numbers during the Triumph tour. So it could have happened.

We also know little MJ had a fling with a girl at school during milk break… only the die hards know what i’m talking about here

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Are we talking about the same Streetwalker song? The one that goes "never met a girl just like you" "baby I love you"? It is such an upbeat song. Do people know that songs are fictional, just like stories. There is probably not an actual Streetwalker who Michael loves!

Abortion Papers is a different story, I want to forget he wrote it, I want to ask him what he was thinking! Maybe he was pro-life and he wanted to express that. Maybe he did not think about it because, well, he was not a woman. Maybe given his religious background, he thought it was ok. I don't even know what was going on in the world at the time he wrote it. So in his own words - unless I sat down with him and talked song by song about what he meant, what is his real personal opinion vs lyrics that fit the melody, I have no right to judge him.

If you want to believe every word that Michael wrote, then read Moonwalk. On page 110, he says "it always surprises me when people assume that something an artist has created is based on a true experience or reflects his or her own lifestyle. Often nothing could be farther from the truth."

When it comes to Abortion Papers I'm pretty sure it was a story about a girl and her experience. B25 booklet describes notes Michael made saying he needed to be careful so that he didn't offend anyone who had gotten an abortion with the song.

 

[Nite Line]

Abortion Papers is a different story, I want to forget he wrote it, I want to ask him what he was thinking! Maybe he was pro-life and he wanted to express that. Maybe he did not think about it because, well, he was not a woman. Maybe given his religious background, he thought it was ok. I don't even know what was going on in the world at the time he wrote it. So in his own words - unless I sat down with him and talked song by song about what he meant, what is his real personal opinion vs lyrics that fit the melody, I have no right to judge him.

I don't think is Michael giving his own opinion on the topic of abortion in Abortion Papers. I interpret Abortion Papers as a song that is written from the perspective of a girl who is a strict Christian and she is thinking about getting an abortion, but she is in two minds about it due to her religion and upbringing. That is how I interpret it.