Michael - The Great Album Debate

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thing is, if these cascio tracks randomly leaked while Michael was alive, they would be shoved in the same pile as let me let go etc. It's only cause they have thrown an official word at people, that they believe to the contrary.

This is a good point. Many are saying the doubters are subconsciously brainwashed by the Jacksons (although the Jacksons were never being taken seriously to begin with). I can also say Sony plays a role in influencing people's thinking. It's true that many have doubts when they first heard Breaking News, then after thinking about how impossible it is for a major global music label to engage in something so ridiculous, many start to convince themselves the vocals are indeed Michael's.

Isn't it true the result of the poll changed drastically after the release of the official statment from the Estate?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Let Me Let Go is nowhere near as good as the Cascio tracks. Wow... So much more energy and power in Breaking News, Monster, Stay, All I Need, and KYHU than Let Me Let Go. Seriously...


It definitely seems more controversial in here to say that it's Michael on the tracks. You instantly get attacked and insulted like you don't have working ears!

This is supposed to be a one-sided debate? How is a whole bunch of people agreeing with each other controversial?

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Are you trolling or something? It kinda looks like it. I mean, seriously, AIN and Stay has more energy and power compared to Let Me Go? It's like you're saying this just to provoke.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

No, I don't say it to provoke, and please don't call me a troll. Are you trying to insult me or something? It's not nice. I've been a Michael Jackson fan since I was born into this world. I am not a troll. I am just seeking the truth, like I hope you are!

I brought up a few points that no one has addressed yet, maybe because they can't.

It happens a lot in this thread. The doubters want people to just agree with them and have no real debate or discussion.

 

[Graf]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Thing is, if these cascio tracks randomly leaked while Michael was alive, they would be shoved in the same pile as let me let go etc. It's only cause they have thrown an official word at people, that they believe to the contrary.

Yep. They should be on 7even.

Are you trolling or something? It kinda looks like it. I mean, seriously, AIN and Stay has more energy and power compared to Let Me Go? It's like you're saying this just to provoke.

Obviously they are. There are some who just come into this thread, say some things to provoke people then leave.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Isn't it still controversial to bring up the points I bring up, when most of you in this thread already say you are so positive it's not him?

I'm continuing the controversy by getting you guys riled up, aren't I? Is my point not valid that Michael could have recorded 30+ songs in 4 months, when other artists record much more than that?

I don't agree with your point. Just because your other favorite artist can record hundreds of songs in a short period of time doesn't mean Michael would do that. We are talking two different musicians with two different backgrounds, two different habits, two different skillsets, two different styles, two different standards, two different mindsets.

It'll be a better comparison if you compare Michael's own past work styles.

The period of time when Michael focused on HIStory, he worked on about 40 songs. Eventually, 14 of them are released on HIStory, only a few others are considered "complete", most others are nowhere near releasable.

Could he record 12 songs in four months with the Cascios? Possibly. But then, it got me into thinking. I wonder why he was so productive in that sub-standard basement studio during that period of time.

I listened to all of Michael's demos I have last night. All of them and I mean all of them are in substantially better vocal quality than any one of the Cascio tracks.

Scared of the Moon pierces my heart.

Give In To Me sounds absolutely fantastic.

Beautiful Girl is lovely.

Why? Why Michael sounded bad and not himself only in the Cascio basements? Could poor equipment be the only explanation?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Michael ALWAYS had ideas coming to his head. They came to him constantly! I think it's like that with a lot of artists. I am an artist and I am the same way! In the past two weeks I've worked on about twenty songs and written pages and pages worth of poetry.

Omar Rodriguez-Lopez uses the analogy all the time that it's like holding a bucket under a leaking faucet and you're just collecting it.

Michael Jackson was inspired from God. He could create lots and lots. Don't underestimate his ability to do that.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

No, I don't say it to provoke, and please don't call me a troll. Are you trying to insult me or something? It's not nice. I've been a Michael Jackson fan since I was born into this world. I am not a troll. I am just seeking the truth, like I hope you are!

I brought up a few points that no one has addressed yet, maybe because they can't..

See my post!

It happens a lot in this thread. The doubters want people to just agree with them and have no real debate or discussion.

The same thing can be said to the believers, really.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It can't be said about me, because I am really interested in some real evidence or convincing argument that it's Jason Malachi on these tracks. Jason isn't that good.

Love Is Magical, you posted that AFTER I said that. Of course I see your post now, but when I made my post no one had replied to me.

 

[ivy]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

This is a good point. Many are saying the doubters are subconsciously brainwashed by the Jacksons (although the Jacksons were never being taken seriously to begin with). I can also say Sony plays a role in influencing people's thinking. It's true that many have doubts when they first heard Breaking News, then after thinking about how impossible it is for a major global music label to engage in something so ridiculous, many start to convince themselves the vocals are indeed Michael's.

"subconsciously brainwashed" is too harsh IMO. Even as a "believer" I wouldn't say that. I think it's more like the "doubt was introduced". I don't know whether you read my answers to the 25 questions but when I was listening to breaking news for the first time I was thinking about the controversy. and that had nothing to do with taking Roger Friedman (or Jackson's for that matter) for seriously. I hadn't formed an opinion at that time - and I'm sure that many of the people didn't either (in other words they weren't brainwashed) but the idea of the vocal controversy was introduced.

In other words we approached the songs with "is it or isn't it Michael". If the doubt wasn't introduced prior and if we approached the songs as "Michael Jackson songs" our final determination could have been different.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Indeed, the day before Breaking News came out I had heard that the kids said "it's not daddy"...

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It definitely seems more controversial in here to say that it's Michael on the tracks. You instantly get attacked and insulted like you don't have working ears!

You have a million threads you can post in. The doubters have one thread. So why are you even in here if you enjoy the songs as Michael Jackson songs? You're in here, by your own admission, to create 'controversy'. I'm in here to get justice for Michael Jackson. In that, you can see the difference.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I am here for Michael Jackson's justice as well. Another insult... typical.

I was just answering your question about how I'm not continuing any controversy.

I want the truth, but you already said you have closed your mind.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ Michael ALWAYS had ideas coming to his head. They came to him constantly! I think it's like that with a lot of artists. I am an artist and I am the same way! In the past two weeks I've worked on about twenty songs and written pages and pages worth of poetry.

Omar Rodriguez-Lopez uses the analogy all the time that it's like holding a bucket under a leaking faucet and you're just collecting it.

Michael Jackson was inspired from God. He could create lots and lots. Don't underestimate his ability to do that.

I never underestimated Michael's ability. Of course, I know Michael always had ideas in his mind all the time. I'm not saying Michael coudn't record 12 songs in four months nor did I say he ran out of ideas.

My point is when I look at Michael's career as a whole. I feel Michael Jackson was a total perfectionist. Michael had never "mass produced". Mind you, I'm not suggesting the artists who release many albums are worse artists. Different artists have different styles.

Michael appeared to put more value in quality than quantity. Listen to his demos. From Working Day and Night, Billie Jean, Beat It, This Is It, In the Closet, Scare of the Moon, Give In To Me, In the Back, Fall Again, Beautiful Girl. All his demos sound great because Michael Jackson was a true perfectionist. He never settled for anything less.

Other artists may mess around during demo sessions, not Michael Jackson. I have yet to hear a "bad" demo from Michael. What Michael Jackson considered not good enough already sounds great.

Why Michael settled for the output from the Cascio session? He decided to spend his efforts on 12 songs in that studio, even though he sounded better singing into a cell phone than in that studio?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You haven't heard them, but they're out there, love is magical, trust me. He recorded awful stuff that has NEVER been released and he would be so embarrassed if we listened to it.

Of course, we wouldn't mind it, because we love Michael Jackson, but you don't know what kind of really off demos he created just because of the ones Sony has decided to share with us or that have leaked.

Listen to the demo tapes in the deposition video. He messes up lots of times and the look on his face is like 'oops!' You don't know how many tapes there were of things like that.

I think Michael created a lot more than people give him credit for. Sure, they probably weren't all COMPLETE, but I think he had really an infinite amount of ideas to play around with. He was a genius. He was getting up in the middle of the night to write ideas down. He was constantly creating. It was in his DNA. He needed to do it, it was his passion!!!

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I am here for Michael Jackson's justice as well. Another insult... typical.

Now you're just getting desperate.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's obvious that it's the other way around.

By the way, just because I'm not posting in this thread doesn't mean I'm not here reading it all. I am always keeping up to date on what's going on in this thread when I get the chance.

It is something that is very serious to me. I do want there to be some final justice and clarity on this issue. If I didn't, I wouldn't participate in the discussion and I would do something else with my time.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

"subconsciously brainwashed" is too harsh IMO. Even as a "believer" I wouldn't say that. I think it's more like the "doubt was introduced". I don't know whether you read my answers to the 25 questions but when I was listening to breaking news for the first time I was thinking about the controversy. and that had nothing to do with taking Roger Friedman (or Jackson's for that matter) for seriously. I hadn't formed an opinion at that time - and I'm sure that many of the people didn't either (in other words they weren't brainwashed) but the idea of the vocal controversy was introduced.

In other words we approached the songs with "is it or isn't it Michael". If the doubt wasn't introduced prior and if we approached the songs as "Michael Jackson songs" our final determination could have been different.

Okay. The concept of "is it or isn't it Michael" is introduced to some people. So, their judgements are influenced.

Now, the concept of "it's released by Sony. Sony wouldn't cheat. The Estate wouldn't cheat." is deeply in people's mind and "common sense". So, people's judgement is influenced too.

Let's say these songs are leaked unofficially. The Jacksons never say a word on the authenticity. What would people think? Would people think Breaking News is a genuine Michael Jackson song like DYKWYCA? Or, a song from an impersonator like Let Me Let Go? Unfortunately, we'll never know.

My point is both sides' determinations are influenced by other factors. The doubters are not the only one who are biased.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You haven't heard them, but they're out there, love is magical, trust me. He recorded awful stuff that has NEVER been released and he would be so embarrassed if we listened to it.

Of course, we wouldn't mind it, because we love Michael Jackson, but you don't know what kind of really off demos he created just because of the ones Sony has decided to share with us or that have leaked.

Listen to the demo tapes in the deposition video. He messes up lots of times and the look on his face is like 'oops!' You don't know how many tapes there were of things like that.

I think Michael created a lot more than people give him credit for. Sure, they probably weren't all COMPLETE, but I think he had really an infinite amount of ideas to play around with. He was a genius. He was getting up in the middle of the night to write ideas down. He was constantly creating. It was in his DNA. He needed to do it, it was his passion!!!

First, let's talk the court depositions. Yes, he messed up. He forgot his lyrics. But, did he sound not himself? Did he sound like the voice you hear in Monsters?

Second, the demos. Yes, some of them are released officially. Some aren't. But, all of them sound good. Did he sound like the voice you hear in Monsters in any one of those demos?

Third, the aweful stuff that he recorded and would be so embarassed if his fans hear them. If, and only if, the Cascios demos are authentic Michael Jackson demos. I think the Cascios demos fall under this category. I guess we can all agree, authenticity issue aside, if Michael was still with us, these songs in their current conditions will never see the light of day, right?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ I agree with you on the third, to a degree, as I think there were worse demos than the Cascio tracks, definitely, but the tracks in their conditions would probably not have seen the light of day. Michael was a perfectionist, and that's why I think a lot of the family has taken their particular stance, because they don't feel that complete perfection that he put into his lifetime of work.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's obvious that it's the other way around.

By the way, just because I'm not posting in this thread doesn't mean I'm not here reading it all. I am always keeping up to date on what's going on in this thread when I get the chance.

It is something that is very serious to me. I do want there to be some final justice and clarity on this issue. If I didn't, I wouldn't participate in the discussion and I would do something else with my time.

I'm not calling you out, so please understand.

You said this matter is very serious to you and you want to find some final justice and clarity. However, you mentioned earlier that these songs are CLEARLY Michael to you and you are surprised that people are still debating.

So, what justice and clarify do you need? You are not even in doubt. You believe what the Cascios tracks are Michael's. So, for you, no more clarification is neded.

I'm not saying you shouldn't participate in this thread neither. Please don't get it wrong. As you know, this thread is not as negative as people think, we do have some very warm, lighthearted and humourous moments. That's why I'm here in this thread. I enjoy the discussion. People have made up their minds. Unless further valid information is released, nobody can change anyone's mind. But, hey, keep the thread going. I've learned a lot from both sides.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ I agree with you on the third, to a degree, as I think there were worse demos than the Cascio tracks, definitely, but the tracks in their conditions would probably not have seen the light of day. Michael was a perfectionist, and that's why I think a lot of the family has taken their particular stance, because they don't feel that complete perfection that he put into his lifetime of work.

Exactly! You may be right. There may be worse Michael Jackson demos out there. But, Michael Jackson, the perfectionist, would never ever considered releasing them.

That's why fans, some family members are so passionate about this issue. The perfectionist put 40 years of hard work fine-tuning his crafts. These tracks are not something he's proud of.

You don't need to like some songs in Invincible. But, can you really say in honesty that the VOCALS on Privacy and Break of Dawn are of worse quality? I feel like it's a slap to Michael's face if one thinks his works on Invincible is worse than the Cascio tracks (just my opinon.)

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ No, no, I think Invincible is one of the most insanely brilliantly produced pieces of work ever. I am always blown away from it. It's so impressive.

I was mostly talking about the quality of the actual spirit of the songs, not the production and quality of the vocal take.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^ No, no, I think Invincible is one of the most insanely brilliantly produced pieces of work ever. I am always blown away from it. It's so impressive.

I was mostly talking about the quality of the actual spirit of the songs, not the production and quality of the vocal take.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I just don't feel Jason Malachi in these songs. I can see why people think it is, though, definitely.

I find myself listening to Breaking News, Stay, and All I Need way more than I ever listened to Let Me Let Go, not that bad of a song but not great or Room 2 Breathe, which to me is a bad song.

I do hear Michael on these songs, but if anyone remembers me they will know that I have had doubts before. So no, I don't just naively trust Sony or the Cascio's or Teddy Riley.

I don't naively trust the Jackson's, either. I know how people can lie. I am keeping an open mind on this, going by what I hear, and hoping one day everyone knows for sure if it's him or not.

Keep in mind that we've never heard demos from his later years before. We always heard demo's from the 70's, 80's and early 90's... He could have easily sounded a little rougher when recording demos in his late 40's.

And I've heard how different mics can make a big difference in how a person sounds. And by that I don't mean he sounds like a completely different person, I mean he sounds a little flatter, not as sparkly.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Keep in mind that we've never heard demos from his later years before. We always heard demo's from the 70's, 80's and early 90's... He could have easily sounded a little rougher when recording demos in his late 40's.

And I've heard how different mics can make a big difference in how a person sounds. And by that I don't mean he sounds like a completely different person, I mean he sounds a little flatter, not as sparkly.

For me, if I haven't seen TII, I'd have just accepted that Michael sounded worse in his final years.

In the TII REHEARSAL, he sounded excellent! I'm talking about the parts where he clearly sang live. Till his last day, he never lost any of his singing ability.

How about Best of Joy? Best of Joy is essentially a demo too. It's not finished. Hear the contrast between Best of Joy and Monster?

Whatever microphone the Cascios used, that mic managed to strip away the richness and the sparks of Michael's voice. A telephone does a better job in capturing the essence of Michael's distinctive vocals.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^^ Best of Joy...Hollywood Tonight...Behind the Mask..These are all, ultimately, demos. HT has some slight auto-tuning to it, but, still sounds like Michael. Best of Joy sounds like classic Michael Jackson with that heavenly falsetto, and there are also parts where it sounds like he's using a different style, yet, still, unmistakably Michael Jackson. BTM obviously sounds more complete than HT, but, still a demo, as there are places where he's simply mumbling...a clear sign that it's a demo if you compare it to BJ, WBSS, etc...

 

[Pentum]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Aniram, what's your thoughts on this? http://soundcloud.com/pentum/let-me-go-monster

While listening to it, imagine Jason having a cold/bad microphone/doing a demo/guided vocals/having a bad day/trying new things/learned some new words/recording in a basement/slept on the floor/had a good time/whatever.

Woudln't he sound exactly like the singer in Monster?

Or try imagine him not having a cold/good microphone/having a good day/imitating Michael the best way he can/didn't learn any new words/not in a basement/slept in a bed.


EDIT:
AND PLEASE, TO THE PERSON REPORTING MY STUFF, PLEASE STOP. I UPLOADED THREE OF MY VIDEOS YESTERDAY, POSTED THEM HERE AT MJJC, TODAY THEY WERE GONE.

 

[barok232]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

This time it wasn't that hard to tell.

But oh boy are we in trouble with the next release! I bet they got Malachi at a studio somewhere as I type this, correcting the flaws we pointed out those past couple of months for the rest of the songs. Prepare yourselves!!! This time they 'll work on detail. No more goat vibrato and better pronounciation to come...

But Malachi is good with high notes and falsetto (relatively convincing), whatever he does, he can NEVER imitate MJ's voice chroma especially the low notes and distortion. (And of course not to mention emotion-interpretation but I was talking more "technical")

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But, how come they sound like MJ, and the Cascio tracks sound like a different person?
QUOTE]

They don't sound like a different person, they sound like MJ (especially KYHU, which I see a lot of people here conveniently never mention). But because you KNOW which are the Cascio tracks, you let that information influence your opinion of the singer.

If Hollywood Tonight had been mistakenly labelled a Cascio track, you'd all be claiming it's obviously not MJ singing.

In the same way, if "Shout" or "2000 Watts" had never been released before and were leaked now, you'd see them as obvious fakes too.