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Michael - The Great Album Debate

love is magical said:
I never have much faith in the so-called credentials that are part of marketing and CYA tools. However, I agree that many people are influenced by the very subjective tests commissioned by the manufacturers.
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thank you and that was my point.

look to examples we talked about. Like I said Trident does have the research to back up their claim but could it be challenged ? absolutely. Does Taco Bell's food satisfy USDA's definition of "meat"? Yes it does but it ain't 100% beef. Does 90% of women see an improvement after a certain product? Yes and probably there's a research to back it up but obviously it can be challenged as well.

None of the companies give you the details of their research or credentials because like with any research they know that it ain't perfect.

We already established and agree upon that any forensic musicologist test isn't perfect. We already agree upon that there are additional vocals (whether you believe it to be Malachi or Porte). So I really cannot see why do you expect that they would give you the not perfect and can be challenged expert reports or publish any raw / unprocessed vocals and give you the ability to compare what has been added on.

they'll only show their hand if they are put in a position that they are required.
 
love is magical said:
To me, the voice in 2000 Watts (especially second verse onwards as the pitch goes up gradually) and the voice in WYWTOM are close to idential.
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I agree, and of course it is the same as on Shout. The whole 2000 Watts thing is just another excuse.
 
ivy said:
thank you and that was my point.

look to examples we talked about. Like I said Trident does have the research to back up their claim but could it be challenged ? absolutely. Does Taco Bell's food satisfy USDA's definition of "meat"? Yes it does but it ain't 100% beef. Does 90% of women see an improvement after a certain product? Yes and probably there's a research to back it up but obviously it can be challenged as well.

None of the companies give you the details of their research or credentials because like with any research they know that it ain't perfect.

We already established and agree upon that any forensic musicologist test isn't perfect. We already agree upon that there are additional vocals (whether you believe it to be Malachi or Porte). So I really cannot see why do you expect that they would give you the not perfect and can be challenged expert reports or publish any raw / unprocessed vocals and give you the ability to compare what has been added on.

they'll only show their hand if they are put in a position that they are required.
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So, is it just consumer examples that don't have to show proof? Currently, I am looking at some information that we provide to clients when they are telling us they believe what they've read on the internet or other people regarding certain information pertaining to immunizations. For example, a lot of people believe that the vaccine for measles, mumps, rubella causes autism. Research has backed up that this isn't true. The information provided should be based on sound scientific study. How many groups of people were used? How many control groups? How can I believe what research is telling me without any of this information?!? I'm not just gonna assume that they probably provided this info or have the proof! The information provided should carefully weigh the evidence and acknowledge the limitations of the work. What exactly are those limitations? Where is the evidence? They don't point that out anywhere! Yet, the statement provided says that it's Michael on lead vocals. Says who? The best musicologists in the world? Who are they? Why didn't they state that? What other work did they do? Where is that work? Where was it published? WE KNOW NOTHING OF THIS.

Not only are we not provided with this information, but we have here a set of songs that have a voice on it that sounds nothing like Michael Jackson has ever sounded like in his life. We have here 8 months later and we're STILL debating this. We still can't let it go. The doubt is there, the skepticism is there, and no wonder!

The root of the problem remains the same: We shouldn't believe everything we're told. If it's science, back that shit up lol

Love is magical pretty much summed up what I feel about consumer examples (Estee Lauder, Trident, Taco Bell, etc..)
 
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Ivy, don't walk away. i want you back. you are not alone. no one is invincible. we just want to know who is it. whatever happens, we are still friends.
 
Oh... come on... please... don't make it sound like it's threatening to post here. people are not hostile here. don't give this thread an unnecessary bad rep.
 
love is magical said:
Oh... come on... please... don't make it sound like it's threatening to post here. people are not hostile here. don't give this thread an unnecessary bad rep.
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It doesn't matter what we write, it will be automatically dismissed as an excuse by some people if it is different than their opinion. (I'm not talking about you).
 
KingMikeJ said:
It doesn't matter what we write, it will be automatically dismissed as an excuse by some people if it is different than their opinion. (I'm not talking about you).
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Didn't you state on Twitter that B2N is not MJ?
 
But it IS an excuse! It's an excuse that Teddy and that statement use to explain why his voice sounds so different! It's an excuse because we can CLEARLY hear Michael in Take Me Away despite the robotic sounding voice. The processing is an excuse, a cop out that a lot of people chose to believe. Doesn't change that's it's an excuse. If we sugar coat it, it doesn't change. If you take offence to that, that's not anyone's problem. It is what it is.

If you don't wanna say it's an excuse, then it's a contradiction to what we hear on other pieces of work where Michael is processed. Does that make it any better?
 
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ivy said:
I heard that they don't want this issue to be debated as they believe the longer the fake song debate is going on it hurts Michael the most and no one else.
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The most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while, ivy. If they think it hurts Michael, where's the f***ing proof already? If they really think that, like you said, then they are morons.
 
^^ Exactly! What a way for the Cascio's to shift the blame on the fans. It's their own damn fault that the songs were put on the album in the state they're in, it's their own fault they chose not to communicate with the fans, it's their own fault they're witholding 'proof' that could end this debate once and for all. I don't see any reason to continue to give this the benefit of the doubt.
 
I can't understand how Ivy is willing to defend The Cascios. It's really just baffling. If I were a believer, I'd still talk shit about these evil people. They caused all of this, they must end it.
 
It's hurting Michael is it? Tell you what is hurting Michael, putting songs on his album that aren't even him! The cheek of it!
 
I think it's only hurting them, the Cascio's, because people are realizing they are liars.
 
Pentum said:
I can't understand how Ivy is willing to defend The Cascios. It's really just baffling. If I were a believer, I'd still talk shit about these evil people. They caused all of this, they must end it.
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I have a serious problem with accusing people without proof (and please do not claim that comparison videos etc are damning evidence they are not). Let me give you a very personal example - In US after 9/11 several people I knew were fired because everyone was damn sure that every Muslim and Middle Eastern was a terrorist. They didn't need proof, they just knew it and they couldn't be wrong. When I tried to come to US with a visa I was denied. They didn't care that I had been to US multiple times, they didn't care that I had a residency/ citizenship application and that my background, fingerprints etc was collected and searched before. My established history and reputation didn't matter.

Call it personal experience but I have serious issues with acting investigator, judge, jury and hangman and not giving people the benefit of the doubt and acting all and mighty like we cannot be wrong. I need verifiable objective proof that would stand.

I promise you that if and when if these songs are proven to be fake, I'll be one the first people that sues everyone involved for consumer fraud. Until any evidence surfaces, I will not be a part of this lynching of Cascio's , Teddy, Omer etc because I can't live with myself if I do that.

I asked you what would happen if you are proven to be wrong? Are you going to be able to look to this people in the face and say "my bad" and act like nothing happened?

so stop trying to criticize my behavior and give me standards of how I must act or must not act. You are not me and I'm not you. I do not approve many of the behaviors that I see from the "doubters" but you don't see me go around acting like I'm the morals police.
 
ivy said:
I have a serious problem with accusing people without proof...

Call it personal experience but I have serious issues with acting investigator, judge, jury and hangman and not giving people the benefit of the doubt and acting all and mighty like we cannot be wrong. I need verifiable objective proof that would stand.
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I so respect you for this stance, Ivy. :flowers:
 
I just can't take you seriously, Ivy. You haven't even heard many of the Cascio songs, yet you have defended the songs and the producers for many, many months. What if you listen to B2N and your reaction is that this can NOT be MJ. What are you going to do then? "Well, it's on paper. Must be MJ. Moving on."

I might not be like all the other people around here respecting your opinions here and there because that's not how I am in real life either. As samhabib once said "I respect your right to have an opinion, but I don't respect it".

I critisize you, live with it. You are not me and I am not you.
 
I love Stellajackson posts. A fresh air of truths.It is Jason and day by day more fans knows it.It is imposible to fight against a army of fans.
 
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Pentum said:
I just can't take you seriously, Ivy. You haven't even heard many of the Cascio songs, yet you have defended the songs and the producers for many, many months. What if you listen to B2N and your reaction is that this can NOT be MJ. What are you going to do then? "Well, it's on paper. Must be MJ. Moving on."

I might not be like all the other people around here respecting your opinions here and there because that's not how I am in real life either. As samhabib once said "I respect your right to have an opinion, but I don't respect it".

I critisize you, live with it. You are not me and I am not you.
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First of all I never claimed to be all mighty and not possible to be wrong. If I'm ever proven to be wrong I'll openly admit it and believe me I wouldn't be "dead" or ashamed by it because I'm a human and not claiming to be "perfect". Like I said the minute I am proven to be wrong, I'll take action towards the people that fooled me with a lawsuit. Unlike many people I will actually put my money where my mouth is.

You and your dear friend samhabib fails to realize that the problem isn't accepting other people's opinion - you have every right to reject everything I ever said. It's just accepting that other people might have different opinion then yours and they have the right to voice it.

The minute you start saying "I can't be wrong", "this can't be defended", "I don't believe you can say that " etc you are actually crossing to the point of disrespecting "people's right to an opinion" - the very thing you claim to be respecting. You don't have to believe , agree, accept what I say but you need to accept that I can say whatever I please regardless of how wrong, how crazy and how opposite it might be when compared to your opinions.

You can criticize what I write as my opinion and prove me wrong but you are in no place to determine a behavior pattern for me or everyone. I am not required to call people "evil" just because you say so. I don't have to "talk shit" about people because that's how you would act. I have no requirement to stop writing what I'm believing just because you live in the grand delusion of you cannot be wrong. I didn't get the memo that you became the all mighty king of MJ's music and we are just your servants that are required to obey you.

edited to add: and you know what hurts the doubters the most? this constant push of their opinion on the believers as fact with the added guilt trip of "michael's legacy", "not being a real fan" etc... If you weren't so cocky and so hostile and attacking believe me a lot of people would have listened and responded to you. You just turn people off with this constant "oh I'm absolutely right and you are a bad fan" crap.

"the other people on this thread respecting opinions" actually get me listen to them and I really try to see and understand their point. People such as your friend upside curses me on twitter I just classify him as an obsessed person and start ignoring whatever he might say. You'll win a lot more people with honey then such attacks.
 
I dont think the same as Ivy, but i have to say that she respect our opinions more than others that i had to deal on other forums. That is a fact that i apreciate so much.
 
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Alright, let me put it like this, Ivy: Never mind, I can't be bothered.

Keep Cascioing.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I won't bother replying, and picking apart your post which can be done easily, etc. It's late and I can't be bothered. There is just no point anymore.
 
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