MJ's Team Shutting out & Blockin the Family?

[Moddie777]

i think you are feeding into the idea that MJ was helpless and meek and didn't have a mind of his own. or was a bad decision maker. and that crap was started by the tabs.

it's dangerous to apply our own world to somebody else's. we just don't know. it's wrong, and disrespectful to project yourself onto someone else.

the reality is...(no multiple exclamation marks needed, by the way. we are all emotional here) nobody here is the know all, be all.

I am not feeding into the idea that MJ was helpless and meek. Michael jackson's own actions or lack there of may do that all on its own.
It has been very heavily documented through the years about the history Michael has with hiring crooks and having them close to his inner circle and these people usually end up causing him great harm. Not only have many of these employees been accused by some to have participated in blocking but we have reports in recent years of his employees, stealing from him, going to tabloids and sensationalizing stories about him, suing him and on and on.
You are wayyyyyyy off base and out of line when you accuse me of projecting myself in this thread.
I did not create the madness that stood around Michael Jackson, but I know it was real.
I did not create the blocking and shutting out of the family, but I believe it happened and so do other fans.
If this thread is too much for you to take, you may consider avoiding it all together. Just because, I may have touched a nerve doesn't mean I feel I know all. I do not but I do believe Latoya and Tito's interview. These are Michael's siblings and they confirmed this as fact.
If you'd like to pm me you can.
Please be careful with your inaccurate accusations of me.

 

[Mikejoefan]

I agree, how come this didn't come up at that meal they had, maybe it did... and Michael asked about it when home and was told lies - oh I don't know I feel so sad right now about how corrupt all this is and Michael having passed away. Its all so frustrating, upsetting and disheartening.

They shoulda took michael and locked him up in his old room in encino and deal with the situation. Thats what i woulda did. I have a big family too and we don't play that.

This anger me as well. How does it get to a grown man afraid to make a phone call when he pays you is just beyong me.:doh: Michael shoulda took the kids and fled from that prison. If it got that bad. :no: Even if he was drugged up he wasn't on it 24/7, when ever he come to, I woulda call my peeps and told them to come get me and been waiting at the gate with my kids. And woulda bounced.

 

[qbee]

Thats ridiculas _ Michale was in no prison
no one was keeping mj drugged up and prisoner for 24/7
Mj was makin ghis OWN decisions about his personal life

Michael had his mind and his freedom to come and go as he pleased he was visiting his
dermatologist and shopping 2 & 3 times a week. He knew what he was doing quite trying
to make him out to be incapacitated person that was held againts his will

That would be a terribe lie and Legacy for MJ -

Michael himself always blocked his family and certain people
at his discretion for years _ and that is nothing NEW or is it strange
this had been going on for years_ so for people to say it was odd
behaviour or the fault of AEG is ridiculas ..

That was Michaels decision to block certain people
including his family .. when he felt pressured he has
always done this and fans that have followed MJ for
years , decades know this .

 

[144000]

I am not feeding into the idea that MJ was helpless and meek. Michael jackson's own actions or lack there of may do that all on its own.
It has been very heavily documented through the years about the history Michael has with hiring crooks and having them close to his inner circle and these people usually end up causing him great harm. Not only have many of these employees been accused by some to have participated in blocking but we have reports in recent years of his employees, stealing from him, going to tabloids and sensationalizing stories about him, suing him and on and on.
You are wayyyyyyy off base and out of line when you accuse me of projecting myself in this thread.
I did not create the madness that stood around Michael Jackson, but I know it was real.
I did not create the blocking and shutting out of the family, but I believe it happened and so do other fans.
If this thread is too much for you to take, you may consider avoiding it all together. Just because, I may have touched a nerve doesn't mean I feel I know all. I do not but I do believe Latoya and Tito's interview. These are Michael's siblings and they confirmed this as fact.
If you'd like to pm me you can.
Please be careful with your inaccurate accusations of me.

and i disagree with you saying documentation is the conclusion of Michael's life. this is not about you. this is about a general atmosphere being created. why is it so easy to diagnose Michael, but also so easy to take quick offense, as if i am attacking you personally? to me, that is hypocrisy. i am having a discussion here. i feel free to contribute to the thread, and give my feelings about how MJ is being portrayed, just like everybody else here. i have that right..and we are all in the same unknowing boat. we just don't know.

and i do maintain that a pattern is being followed here. the media would like nothing more than to blame MJ for his own death.

and that seems to be the prevailing feeling here, also.

 

[mello1]

'common reasoning'...'common sense'. two of the most disgusting phrases i have ever heard. the whole world is in a mess based on common sense.

and another thing is very disheartening and discomforting.

Joe Jackson is portrayed as strong. Katherine is portrayed as strong. the rest of the family is portrayed as strong. Michael is portrayed as weak.

how ironic.

Actually, if folk used common sense, the world would NOT be in the state that it's in today.

That's my thinking....

 

[144000]

Actually, if folk used common sense, the world would NOT be in the state that it's in today.

That's my thinking....

yes...but isn't that the ironic thing tho?

everybody in this world says 'use common sense'.

and a lot of people in this world are going through shit.

that's the irony. most of those people gave that advice.

 

[mello1]

Michael himself always blocked his family and certain people
at his discretion for years _ and that is nothing NEW or is
it strange .. this had been going on for years_ so for people
to say it was odd behaviour of the fault of AEG is ridiculas

That was Michaels decision to block certain people
including his family .. when he feels pressured he has
always done this and fans that have followed MJ for
years decades know this .

I agree that it's been going on for years. What I'm not sure about anymore is why. I have some thoughts on that too, but I will keep them to myself.

 

[Moddie777]

I think you have to use some common reasoning here. Look, I get that you don't want to venture in this space, but in my mind, things don't add up and if everything was all well in his world, he simply would be on his 5th show by now in London.

Clearly you resist the idea of MJ possibly being controlled or handled by enablers. At this point, I'm not ruling out anything because he's dead.

As I stated before, even if the man died of natural causes, that would contradict reports that he passed detailed physicals with flying colors. While it's certainly possible that something went undetected, it's not likely -- especially when dealing with insurance carriers who would be on the spot to cover the pay out.

As far as I'm certained, everything is on the table and Moddie is right. There have been whisperings of this very thing for years. It's not like this just materialized out of thin air.

Thank You mello1 for everything you said here. Especially the last part of corroborating the fact that I aint the only fan who heard about the whispers of the blocking from years past by Michael's Team.

 

[Victoria]

Victoria I could hug you right now if you were here!!!!! We are absolutely on the same page 100%!!!!!!!!!! From the evidence we see, our minds can't help but be alike. It's all there for everyone to figure out, if only they went back a few years and read some of the information thats out there and compare it to what we know now.

Don't worry. I don't believe there was anything us fans could have done to prevent this from happening to our Michael. The london fans had tried to save him after they saw what they did during that awful trip. During that time, posting on the boards about those kinds of subjects were not permitted by board owners and mods, so we had to take our conversations in private. A few american fans along with the London fans did reach out to family members( one of them claimed to have had Tito's number and another had contact with a trusted jackson employee, or so they said). Even though I had contact with no one but the fans online, I remember getting really emotionally upset and involved in what they reported back to the few of us that would listen. They were not alot of fans who wanted to here the truth when these fans attempted to share their concerns about the crooked people around Michael. For instance, so many fans were kissing Raymone's butt because they had been recieving an occasional email from her that they had direct permission to post sometimes. Therefore, this made those particular fans feel important. They made the mistake of dismissing what was being told to them by these fans who were very, very worried about Michael.
I do feel Michael was too naive for his own good. He trusted the wrong people time and time again, but when it came time for him to ask for help, I believe it was too late. If that nurse named cherylnn (lee)? was telling an ounce of the truth; after haven read the transcript and saw her initial interview it seemed( correct me if I am wrong), that MJ BEGGED her to help him and no one at his house did a damn thing about it. She claimed to have heard him in the background over the phone describing how one side of his body was warm and the other side of his body felt cold. Upon hearing this, NO ONE at his residence called for an ambulance! He was in trouble right then an no one helped him. He was crying out for help to a nurse and she nor no one in that house came to his aide. Wasn't this supposedly a wk, 2 or 3 before his death?
Michael was purposely isolated and given toxic drugs so his handlers could take full control over his estate and decisions.
There is absolutely no evidence that anyone within Michael's employ lifted a hand to get him real medical help in the last few months, weeks of his life!
So why do we have a few past and So called current employee's claiming there were no signs? Would you go on national TV or give any interviews claiming to have seen the signs all along but you did nothing to help him but instead you contributed in the shutting out and blockin of the family or few friends left that cared anything about MJ.
Michael Jackson had no adult person in his own home employeed by him who really cared a darn about him, the human being.
He layed there dead and what did his very loyal and devoted employees do? According to his sister LaToya, they took millions of dollars worth of his jewelry and some cash he had stashed.
They took advantaged of him til the very end...

Moddie,

You are such a sweet person with a very balanced mind!
I wish to hug you right now too because you have helped me to clarify lots of things because you know people who have seen MJ and had some knowledge of what was going on with him.
I don’t know what went on during his London trip but I wish to hear more about that. If you don’t want to share that info inpto the public view, we can talk privately, if you want to share into the public view, better, because others will read and know the truth.
You are right, not many fans wanted to hear the truth concerning Michael’s condition and turned upset when fans started to post things. That’s why I believe that many of those clarifying posts were deleted and blocked. Yes, Michael was naïve in many many ways, starting with always making the wrong turn by trusting the wrong people, meaning in business or private life, allowing social climbers to use him and his image to promote themselves in the media and associating himself with bloodsuckers! I believe that he never allow those who really loved him to get closer enough to him and become part of his everyday life and take care of him. Those surrounding him had some kind of interest. They were not giving people, they were always trying to extract something off of him and they did it until the last minute as you recalled, by stealing his jewelries and money from his home when his body was laying dead in the hospital…
I saw the interview from his nurse, cherylnn, on TV, that MJ BEGGED her to help him and no one at his house did a damn thing about it. She claimed to have heard him in the background over the phone describing how one side of his body was warm and the other side of his body felt cold. I froze when I hear that on TV!! As you said, NO ONE at his residence called for an ambulance! HE WAS NEGLENTED He was in trouble right then and NO ONE HELPED HIM! He should have asked to go to the hospital. He was crying out for help to a nurse, who was in FLORIDA days before of his death, and NO ONE in that house came to his aide.
Now I ask, who it’s to blame??Isn’t it clear that he died of negligence?

 

[Mikejoefan]

We you see moddie its hard to know the truth from fact looking back at it all. I too thought michael didn't want to see his family at times because ppl made like it was the family who was trying to use michael and that's why he was blocking them. So that's what I thought. Michael was seen with his family at times that's why I believed this to be true. Michael saw them when he wanted and didn't when he didn't want to. But now as im learning that wasn't the case ALL THE TIME. I think if it was anybody to save or help michael it shoulda been his family and friends especially sense THEY were worried to point of intervention. They shoulda came with some STRONG force and got michael the help he needed. This wasn't the time to ask can I see my brother, it was time to demand the issue. If michael don't want to see me you tell michael to personally come DOWN STAIRS and tell me that to my face.

AND..Were in the world was MIKO, you mean to tell me he didn't see NOTHING????? See things like that will make me think he did care either.

 

[Victoria]

I am not feeding into the idea that MJ was helpless and meek. Michael jackson's own actions or lack there of may do that all on its own.
It has been very heavily documented through the years about the history Michael has with hiring crooks and having them close to his inner circle and these people usually end up causing him great harm. Not only have many of these employees been accused by some to have participated in blocking but we have reports in recent years of his employees, stealing from him, going to tabloids and sensationalizing stories about him, suing him and on and on.
You are wayyyyyyy off base and out of line when you accuse me of projecting myself in this thread.
I did not create the madness that stood around Michael Jackson, but I know it was real.
I did not create the blocking and shutting out of the family, but I believe it happened and so do other fans.
If this thread is too much for you to take, you may consider avoiding it all together. Just because, I may have touched a nerve doesn't mean I feel I know all. I do not but I do believe Latoya and Tito's interview. These are Michael's siblings and they confirmed this as fact.
If you'd like to pm me you can.
Please be careful with your inaccurate accusations of me.

Moddie,

I support your thoughts and ideas, as much as MJ's siblings, similar to ours. Their ideas represent my feelings and ideas too on what has happened to MJ over the years that culminated with his passing! I just hope those facts will be brought to the public soon...

 

[Moddie777]

and i disagree with you saying documentation is the conclusion of Michael's life. this is not about you. this is about a general atmosphere being created. why is it so easy to diagnose Michael, but also so easy to take quick offense, as if i am attacking you personally? to me, that is hypocrisy. i am having a discussion here. i feel free to contribute to the thread, and give my feelings about how MJ is being portrayed, just like everybody else here. i have that right..and we are all in the same unknowing boat. we just don't know.

and i do maintain that a pattern is being followed here. the media would like nothing more than to blame MJ for his own death.

and that seems to be the prevailing feeling here, also.

I have not put the needle in Michael's hand. Reread my post in here. The needle is clearly in the hands of ALL of MJ's Team who knew exactly what was going on and for some of them, they did nothing to help him.

 

[mello1]

yes...but isn't that the ironic thing tho?

everybody in this world says 'use common sense'.

and a lot of people in this world are going through shit.

that's the irony. most of those people gave that advice.

Honey, it's simply because while it's often said, it's not often followed, that's all.

I think that we are just talking about what we think and if it's too much for you, I can understand.

But it's not going to stop people from believing what they believe based on their understanding of the situation as they currently understand it.

And I do have to say this, not to hurt you, but for you to take under consideration.

Some of this may very well be MJ's own fault. That's on the table too.

But I don't love him any less whatever the case may be. I just want the truth to come out.

Whatever that truth may be.

 

[144000]

I have not put the needle in Michael's hand. Reread my post in here. The needle is clearly in the hands of ALL of MJ's Team who knew exactly what was going on and for some of them, they did nothing to help him.

i didn't say u put it in his hand. u don't have to put it in his hand.

saying there were enablers is the same thing. it's just that somebody else's hand is being used. and that's what i don't agree with. i don't see MJ as naive. he's done better in this business than a lot of people. that can't be taken from him. nor do i blame him for whatever happened June 25. i see us all outside trying to look through a wall. and i am just one of many, giving my feelings about MJ.

one thing i will agree with. and that's Mello's statement that...

the truth will come out. whatever that truth may be.

 

[Mikejoefan]

mikethe bodyguard talked about mj telling him to keep the family away cause they were always wanting something off him. maybe the fam should look closer to home

And this is why you don't know what to believe and I do feel like the family did their share of using. But I'd rather give my money to my family then somebody who could care 2 pennies about me. Mikes family loved him, I do believe that. These other crooks could care less. stole from him AND let him die.:bugeyed

 

[Moddie777]

We you see moddie its hard to know the truth from fact looking back at it all. I too thought michael didn't want to see his family at times because ppl made like it was the family who was trying to use michael and that's why he was blocking them. So that's what I thought. Michael was seen with his family at times that's why I believed this to be true. Michael saw them when he wanted and didn't when he didn't want to. But now as im learning that wasn't the case ALL THE TIME. I think if it was anybody to save or help michael it shoulda been his family and friends especially sense THEY were worried to point of intervention. They shoulda came with some STRONG force and got michael the help he needed. This wasn't the time to ask can I see my brother, it was time to demand the issue. If michael don't want to see me you tell michael to personally come DOWN STAIRS and tell me that to my face.

AND..Were in the world was MIKO, you mean to tell me he didn't see NOTHING????? See things like that will make me think he did care either.

Yes Mikejoefan, it is hard to decipher fact from fiction many of times, which is why it is important to pay attention to information as it comes out as best as you can and when corraborating information from various sources are found; it should warrant being taken into consideration. Follow what makes the link and usually a form of the truth can be found in it.

 

[Victoria]

And this is why you don't know what to believe and I do feel like the family did their share of using. But I'd rather give my money to my family then somebody who could care 2 pennies about me. Mikes family loved him, I do believe that. These other crooks could care less. stole from him AND let him die.:bugeyed

I agree with you as well in this! rather having his family close to him, who obviously loved him so much more than words can describe, than having those enablers who only were there for cashing their $$$$$$$$$$! Michael made a mistake by allowing those suspicious people to assist him. They never cared for him...they actually contributed to his death!

 

[dancemasterman]

do people here at MJJ community actually hate Brian Oxman?

 

[Soso Deaf]

common sense ain't so common anymore. that's the general analysis and it's correct.

furthermore, if mj was being fed things, people preying on his pain and using that to exploit the situations, that too will come out.


but defending those that don't need defending .sorry but aeg isn't moping around right now. they're making money and exploiting the situation. so please, if u wanna defend someone, then defend the dr or defend his handlers but please, don't defend the one making millions right now

 

[Soso Deaf]

do people here at MJJ community actually hate Brian Oxman?

i think hate is a strong word

i was in court when the FOOL fell asleep. he sat behind the real lawyers, like the kid chair or whatever. he was fired for a reason, he's lying for a reason, and he's pathetic for a reason.

best oxman quote 'one day i told the family that...one day mj will WAKE UP DEAD....and'

um....wtf? how does that happen? y is he saying it NOW? if u were a real friend, u would'vecalled mj out. put his ass on blast, threaten to take his kids. have everyone on now who is sayin gthe same thing, chopra bodyguards minelli gellar etc...to side w/ u an dthen make him do something. make him respond.

u didn't. now he'spassed. so let it go. u can say all u want about what u SAID but show me what you DID. nothing so sit down and shut up.

that's just mho

 

[Victoria]

Honey, it's simply because while it's often said, it's not often followed, that's all.

I think that we are just talking about what we think and if it's too much for you, I can understand.

But it's not going to stop people from believing what they believe based on their understanding of the situation as they currently understand it.

And I do have to say this, not to hurt you, but for you to take under consideration.

Some of this may very well be MJ's own fault. That's on the table too.

But I don't love him any less whatever the case may be. I just want the truth to come out.

Whatever that truth may be.

Indeed so true! for those who are long time fans and have a clue of his life over the years will have a clear idea of what might have happened. Each one has a perception of it but the truth will come out soon. He had enablers and this is a fact though.

 

[Moddie777]

i didn't say u put it in his hand. u don't have to put it in his hand.

saying there were enablers is the same thing. it's just that somebody else's hand is being used. and that's what i don't agree with. i don't see MJ as naive. he's done better in this business than a lot of people. that can't be taken from him. nor do i blame him for whatever happened June 25. i see us all outside trying to look through a wall. and i am just one of many, giving my feelings about MJ.

one thing i will agree with. and that's Mello's statement that...

the truth will come out. whatever that truth may be.

Vncwilliam, I wanna start this post by telling you. I love you. I love you because, like me you love Michael and you too are hurting and suffering as we all are.

It was Brian Oxman, the very nect day after Michael's death who stood on different news programs saying something about the "Enablers" around Michael contributing to his death in some way. And yes, I already know from reading what other fans have posted that Brian hadn't been around Michael in years. Could it be possible, that he was blocked because he had an obvious dislike for what he knew was going on and by whose hands? He did mention on tv, he didn't want to name names when asked for more information. This told me, he knew who it was in Michael's camp that was enabling him.
In other words, Tito's and Latoya's recent interview had already been confirmed as fact by What Brian Oxman said long before Michael's body was even cold.
He was attacked too, just like fans who came back and tried to tell of what they saw during that London Trip.
Again, this is information through the years being corraborated by other sources on the same subject matter.

Victoria-Thank You for your support in this thread. I knew it was not going to be an easy subject to address! Bless you.

 

[144000]

Indeed so true! for those who are long time fans and have a clue of his life over the years will have a clear idea of what might have happened. Each one has a perception of it but the truth will come out soon. He had enablers and this is a fact though.

i think that's a harsh assessment of fans who don't agree with you. i have been a fan for awhile. quite a while.

and no one has a 'clue' about anyone else's life. people are too busy figuring out themselves to think they have a clue about someone else.

 

[Soso Deaf]

no oxman was attacked b/c the way he said it. it was one big 'i told u so' and honestly. what did he win? a special prize? a pat on the back? more airtime? if u knew and u have a mouth as big as u do, y the hell didn't u say shit? cuz money meant more than friendship and doing the right thing.

spike lee could teach him a thing or two

 

[Moddie777]

i think hate is a strong word

i was in court when the FOOL fell asleep. he sat behind the real lawyers, like the kid chair or whatever. he was fired for a reason, he's lying for a reason, and he's pathetic for a reason.

best oxman quote 'one day i told the family that...one day mj will WAKE UP DEAD....and'

um....wtf? how does that happen? y is he saying it NOW? if u were a real friend, u would'vecalled mj out. put his ass on blast, threaten to take his kids. have everyone on now who is sayin gthe same thing, chopra bodyguards minelli gellar etc...to side w/ u an dthen make him do something. make him respond.

u didn't. now he'spassed. so let it go. u can say all u want about what u SAID but show me what you DID. nothing so sit down and shut up.



that's just mho

I again so so def, I hadn't seen your post when i made mine about Brian Oxman. Not that it changes anything I was tryin to convey, just wanted to point out, I had not seen your post.

 

[Soso Deaf]

oh,lol it's ok

brian is really a piece of work. he likened mj's dangling of blanket to raffikki dangling simba and said it was an african tradition. wtf?

THE MAN HAS NO SENSE and he was put on mj's team so they could watch him and his big damn mouth. once he went too far, mez gave him a fourty-five minute berating screamfest in the parkinglot at the courthouse and he was gone

 

[dearmother]

brian is really a piece of work. he likened mj's dangling of blanket to raffikki dangling simba and said it was an african tradition. wtf?

my thoughts exactly hahaha

 

[Moddie777]

no oxman was attacked b/c the way he said it. it was one big 'i told u so' and honestly. what did he win? a special prize? a pat on the back? more airtime? if u knew and u have a mouth as big as u do, y the hell didn't u say shit? cuz money meant more than friendship and doing the right thing.

spike lee could teach him a thing or two

I agree, it was like an "I told you so". I felt uncomfortable to be very honest with you. I wasn't sure of his angle in that first interview after Michael had died.

But all has not come out yet, we don't know if Brian Oxman tried to reach him and administer help or not, what we do know is this: He was the first official insider past or present to go on national tv stating that there were "enablers" who contributed to Michael Jackson's death and he eluded to the fact that he could name them but did not.

If any of this is the truth, we are going to hear more about this and it aint gonna be pretty either.

 

[144000]

Vncwilliam, I wanna start this post by telling you. I love you. I love you because, like me you love Michael and you too are hurting and suffering as we all are.

It was Brian Oxman, the very nect day after Michael's death who stood on different news programs saying something about the "Enablers" around Michael contributing to his death in some way. And yes, I already know from reading what other fans have posted that Brian hadn't been around Michael in years. Could it be possible, that he was blocked because he had an obvious dislike for what he knew was going on and by whose hands? He did mention on tv, he didn't want to name names when asked for more information. This told me, he knew who it was in Michael's camp that was enabling him.
In other words, Tito's and Latoya's recent interview had already been confirmed as fact by What Brian Oxman said long before Michael's body was even cold.
He was attacked too, just like fans who came back and tried to tell of what they saw during that London Trip.
Again, this is information through the years being corraborated by other sources on the same subject matter.

Victoria-Thank You for your support in this thread. I knew it was not going to be an easy subject to address! Bless you.

yes..it's tough subject matter.

but this is also a trend, in the usa.

i think i have something to say about this that is relative to this thread. there are a lot of athletes in the usa who are being accused of using drugs to help their performance in sports. and they do the accusing, based upon 'corroborating info from many sources', as opposed to granite hard evidence. as a result of the corroborations, media are discounting milestones in the athletes' lives. one athlete had to suffer a long suspension because he was accused of using steroids, when in fact, he was using a fertility drug, and never used steroids. but the athlete accepted the suspension, anyway, and lost millions in money, and his reputation is scarred for life. to this day, there is no HARD evidence that this athlete has used STEROIDS. the drug in question. the drug that is against the law. the athlete, in other words, should have NOT been suspended.

just because people corroborate, doesn't mean that the conclusion is any more valid than a rumour. there needs to be Rock Hard evidence. irrefutable evidence. physical evidence.

then, there has to be the willingness to not enter bias. some athletes were overlooked cus the media liked them.

so, you see...the truth may never be known. or..it may be known, but overlooked, based on bias. and i love u too...but, the reality is...the feeling about MJ, among some fans, is the word 'naive'. and..that's a bias.

now, perhaps you will say that i think he is NOT naive..and that that is a bias. but i am not drawing any conclusions about the reasons for what happened on the 25th.

although i do feel there were people out to get him. but that is my feeling. not my conclusion. although to hear the media...i would say that people certainly did sound like they were out to get him.

the truth will out. i just hope we can all see it with clear eyes.

 

[Soso Deaf]

i can attest to the fact that he DID not.

he was employed by someone in the family. he has a big damn mouth, his paycheck meant more tha na man's life so for that, he's nothing to me. nothing more than a parasite on a long list of peoplemaking money to run they damn mouths