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Murray Trial - 4 October - Day 6 - Discussion

Soundmind said:
I believe the only person who could know whether it was flumazenil then propofol or propofol then flumazenil is Murray .

I don't think they could determine which drug was injected first. You asked very hard questions , do the experts have explanations? don't really know.
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yes, you are probably right, it's not possible to determine.


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something else, can someone answer this: was ephedrine brought up during lopez' testimony? i did not hear it mentioned.
 
Soundmind said:
All the PILL bottles were found on the nightstand EXCEPT lorazepam it was found in the bathroom, will Murray claim MJ went to the bathroom with the condom catheter on to get the pills? lol
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Chernoff did say that, he just forgot to mention the condom catheter
 
so mj drags himself around a room half out of it with a condom catheter on and an iv attached to him which requires him to take the iv stand with him aswell.!!

thanks for the info soundmind. this has dragged on for so long i forget things. thanks for the reminder
 
I don't think it's been mentioned so far, by any of the witnesses.
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strange that brazil did not bring up ephedrine during lopez' testimony, during prelim it was mentioned.

it was lopez who prepared the eca stack for murray.

from the prelim hearing jan 10, 2011:

Q: Turning now to June 1, 2009, did you have a conversation with doctor murray picking up on the energy request that he had made with you some weeks prior?
A: Yes, i did. And i told him there was essentially three products that are commercially available over the counter that i could possibly put them in a combination. So it's in one capsule, and he could try that to see if that satisfied what he was trying to accomplish.

Q: Was that agreeable to doctor murray?
A: Yes, it was.

Q: And did you, in fact, prepare an energy formulation of over-the-counter products such as caffeine, aspirin, and ephedrine and create capsules and provide them?
A: He -- yes. I told him the minimum i could make was 30 at a time.

Q: That would be 30 capsules?
A: 30 capsules. So i made that formulation of 30 capsules.

Q: Were those items included in a shipment that was placed later on in june?
A: Yes.

Q: And did you include these energy formulations on an invoice, or did you just include them in the shipment for doctor murray to try?
A: I included them in the shipment.
 
where is the sticky thread for todays court?

the trial will start in 15 minutes
 
Soundmind said:
All the PILL bottles were found on the nightstand EXCEPT lorazepam it was found in the bathroom, will Murray claim MJ went to the bathroom with the condom catheter on to get the pills? lol




Ivy , can we have a thread to discuss the defence strategy ? I just want to be able to state why I believe the "10:40 am" was fabricated by Murray's defence and why I believe they did not really change the timeline without certain members attacking me.
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Sound, thank you for that. I heard a lawyer on TruTv say the exact same thing yesterday when they said lopz bottles were only found in the bathroom, not in the bedroom. I wasn't sure if it was true, so I didn't write it here.

The lawyer said that in order for Murray's story to be true, Michael had to wake, walk to the bathroom, eat the lopz pills, walk back into the room, drink/inject the propofol, then get back into bed, and fall asleep. All this while hook up to an IV and a condom catheter.

Although, Just told me that there was lopz bottle on the nightstand, which is why I didn't post this, so I need another confirmation. Are you certain that there no other lopz bottles in the room that Michael would had easier access to? I also still wonder how the defense can argue that taking those lopz pills worked so fast to kill Michael quickly, within a minute, since it takes at least 30 or so minutes for sleeping pills to usually kick in. Which is why you can take a bottle of those type of drugs and still be mindful enough to call 911 for yourself. If it happened in that way, the propofol alone should had caused death without the lopz because it wouldn't have time to even reach his bloodstream.
 
are you sure ephedrine wasnt mentioned when he was talking about the enery booster. i thought it was

court starts in one hour 20
 
Although, Just told me that there was lopz bottle on the nightstand, which is why I didn't post this, so I need another confirmation. Are you certain that there no other lopz bottles in the room that Michael would had easier access to? I also still wonder how the defense can argue that taking those lopz pills worked so fast to kill Michael quickly, within a minute, since it takes at least 30 or so minutes for sleeping pills to usually kick in. Which is why you can take a bottle of those type of drugs and still be mindful enough to call 911 for yourself. If it happened in that way, the propofol alone should had caused death without the lopz because it wouldn't have time to even reach his bloodstream.
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i guess they will say he took the loraz tablet 60 mins or so at least before he injected/drank the diprivan. so they two worked at the same time. they wont say mj took the tablets and injected all at the same time
 
They didn't mention the ephedrine in detail but Brazil did touch on Murray asking Lopez for an energy formulation that would give someone energy and wakefulness. Maybe they will recall Lopez at some point to go into it further or perhaps the medical experts have made a determination that the ephedrine had no real effect in cause of death so Pros. isn't going to spend time on it. Guess we'll find out when the pathology info starts rolling out.

btw...I'm reading the thread backwards to the page I last left off to makes sure I'm not responding to stuff already covered.
 
As to what medications were found where, and amounts, if possible, it would be appreciated if links to court documents (i.e. search-warrants, evidence listings) could be posted for statements of "fact?" Also, links to documents from the prelim? (haven't found an "evidence list" and locations of drugs yet in the sticky thread about court documents.) I, for one, will not rely on ANYTHING that Chernoff says as being truthful. . . his goal is acquittal of Murray, and is not bound to be accurate in his opening statements. He could say, "a flying saucer landed on Michael's lawn, and little green men did it?" So, links would be appreciated, IF possible, as this trial develops? Links to anything BUT Chernoff's opening statements? Thankees.
 
Of course, no one will rely on Chernoff...I'm still surprised he hasn't involved Kenya. What was found and where is in the coroner's report
 
8701girl said:
No i dont think hes explained why he taped it. I think it was a cell phone call between murray & mj and murray recorded it somehow.
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In opening statements Walgren said we would hear the recorded conversation in full. This might give us some indication why Murray taped it. If there's some kind of introduction, that would put it into context...or if at anytime during the recording Michael acknowledges that the he knows he's being taped or not that would put it into context as well. We'll have to wait and see if there's a beginning, middle and ending to this conversation or if Murray just randomly starting recording for no apparent reason.
 
Not only that why didn't Michael run into Murray on his way to the bathroom? I mean that is where Murray said he was right?
 
Sophie darlying I LOVE YOU SO MUC :) I read the links you provided and I believe now it was Flumazenil THEN propofol . I will try to explain further everything Sophie said .



MJ at those high levels of lorazepam would have been in deep sedation, in fact studies confirm that at 10mg of lorazepm 93% of patients go in deep sedation , we r hearing talking about double that dose . it's not logical really to assume he could have been able to wake up on his own with the level of lorazepam found.

Flumazenil when injected does not really affect the lorazepam concentrations ,Flumazenil antagonizes the actions of benzodiazepines on the central nervous system , has no effect on concentrations. So if flumazenil was used lorazepam concentrations are no longer a tool to determine whether MJ was awake or sleep.

Chase testified MJ used to have his lunch at 12:30 pm . the call was made at 11:51 am . Murray had to awake MJ at that time so he could have enough time to fully recover from the meds effects .
I previoulsy thought flumazenil was indeed used in an attempt to revive MJ, after what Sophie said I no longer believe that.
Flumazenil was bought in LARGE amounts like lorazepam and midazolam , and we discussed this issue before on this board, flumazenil was used to stop the lorazepam effect before propofol was injected .

Now , on that day Murray headed to awake MJ, gave him flumazeni, flumazenil causes seizers in people who are dependent on benzos one of its contradictions "Underlying dependence upon benzodiazepines.Be prepared to manage seizures in patients who are physically dependent on benzodiazepines to control seizures" . Flumazenil is used to stop benzos effect to awake people from sedation during a surgery not really with people who take benzos on daily basis ,got it? It's another negligence act on Murray's part to use it like that.

its onset of action is seen within one to two minutes and peak after 6 to ten minutes . Inorder for Murray to make MJ believe he's awaking from propofol induced sedation he had to inject a bolus injection of propofol within one minute of the flumazenil injection, after 10 minutes MJ would be "fully" awake from lorazepam and experiencing propofol related 'feelings'.
Going back to what happened , he injected flumazenil. while MJ was awakining Murray injected propofol rapidly and killed him . it's compliated I know :closedeyes:
 
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bouee said:
The judge authorised 2 pictures of Michael to be shown. We already saw the first one, and it's possible we see the second one today, though it's not sure.
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I dread this photo. Hopefully, it will be allowed only for viewing by those in the courtroom and not by the camera. For those who aren't aware, the photo is supposed to be of MJ pre-autopsy with a sheet over his genitals. :(

I didn't expect that photo to come us this early tho. Thought it might be more suited for when the coroner takes the stand...unless the Prosec. believes they may have time to call the coroner today. :scratch: Yesterday's testimonies went fairly quickly.

Thanks to all for the updates and info.
 
Although, Just told me that there was lopz bottle on the nightstand, which is why I didn't post this, so I need another confirmation. Are you certain that there no other lopz bottles in the room that Michael would had easier access to? I also still wonder how the defense can argue that taking those lopz pills worked so fast to kill Michael quickly, within a minute, since it takes at least 30 or so minutes for sleeping pills to usually kick in. Which is why you can take a bottle of those type of drugs and still be mindful enough to call 911 for yourself. If it happened in that way, the propofol alone should had caused death without the lopz because it wouldn't have time to even reach his bloodstream.
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100000% sure, that was one of the first things that caught my attention when I read the search warrant, actually I mentioned it repeatdly here and discussed it .who else remembers stories about EMPTY BOTTLE of lorazepam found in the bathroom? later we discovered it was not really empty. But those things were discussed here and I'm 10000% there was no lorazepam pill bottles found in MJ's bedroom. If I remember correctly the lorazepam bottles were discovered the next day.
 
Autumn II said:
I've noticed a switch from the defense tactic of "Michael self-injected," to, "he took pills" (which hopefully would be refuted by the Autopsy Report). I'd say that the reason for the change of defense tactic could be knowledge that his fingerprints weren't found on the propofol-related apparatus? And so? Were Michael's prints on the pill bottles, or not? And if not, the defense will say, "Murray left a pile of pills conveniently on the night-stand?"
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even if I believe defense strategy (which I don't) it's still too far fetched. defense said michael took 8 pills enough to put sleep 6 people. so it doesn't really seem realistic that michael would wake up , realize that murray was out of the room, want to get propofol and get / reach to the propofol (even mix and prepare it) and then drink/inject it. especially if the time frame is 2 minutes. we all heard michael being groggy in may 10 recording. I don't think 8 lorazepam pills are something that you wake up all bright and alert.

Soundmind said:
All the PILL bottles were found on the nightstand EXCEPT lorazepam it was found in the bathroom, will Murray claim MJ went to the bathroom with the condom catheter on to get the pills? lol
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if that's the case i think the logical thing to argue would be he took them while he was taking the shower and came to bed 1-2 am.

then they would need to explain why mj wouldn't be able to sleep with 8 pills + 4mg IV from murray + propofol and would wake to get another dose of propofol.

also by the time 11 -12 the pills mj took will almost be close to their half time - assuming that he took them before without telling to murray like the defense claims. that will shot down propofol reacted with 8 pills theory.

but I'm not that knowledgeable medically



Ivy , can we have a thread to discuss the defence strategy ? I just want to be able to state why I believe the "10:40 am" was fabricated by Murray's defence and why I believe they did not really change the timeline without certain members attacking me.
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sure start a thread for defense strategy and another one for theories
 
Soundmind said:
Sophie darlying I LOVE YOU SO MUC :) I read the links you provided and I believe now it was Flumazenil THEN propofol . I will try to explain further everything Sophie said .



MJ at those high levels of lorazepam would have been in deep sedation, in fact studies confirm that at 10mg of lorazepm 39% of patients go in deep sedation , we r hearing talking about double that dose . it's not logically really to assume he could have been able to wake up on his own with the level of lorazepam found.

Flumazenil when injected does not really affect the lorazepam concentrations ,Flumazenil antagonizes the actions of benzodiazepines on the central nervous system , has no effect on concentrations.

Chase testified MJ used to have his lunch at 12:30 pm . the call was made at 11:51 am . Murray had to awake MJ at that time so he could have enough time to fully recover from the meds effects .
I previoulsy thought flumazenil was indeed used in an attempt to revive MJ, after what Sophie said I no longer believe that.
Flumazenil was bought in LARGE amounts like lorazepam and midazolam , and we discussed this issue before on this board, flumazenil was used to stop the lorazepam effect before propofol was injected .

Now , on that day Murray headed to awake MJ, gave him flumazeni, flumazenil causes seizers in people who are dependent on benzos one of its contradictions "Underlying dependence upon benzodiazepines.Be prepared to manage seizures in patients who are physically dependent on benzodiazepines to control seizures" . Flumazenil is used to stop benzos effect to awake people from sedation during a surgery not really with people who take benzos on daily basis ,got it? It's another negligence act on Murray's part to use like that.

its onset of action is seen within one to two minutes and peak after 6 to ten minutes . Inorder for Murray to make MJ believe he's awaking from propofol induced sedation he had to inject a bolus injection of propofol within one minute of the flumazenil injection, after 10 minutes MJ would be "fully" awake from lorazepam and experiencing propofol related 'feelings'.
Going back to what happened , he injected flumazenil while MJ was awakining Murray injected propofol rapidly and killed him . it's compliated I know :closedeyes:
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I was reading sophie's post and had this thought as well and I think it was you who mentioned before about MJ waking up with propofol related feelings.

So, is it possible Murray was actually in the process of WAKING MJ up instead of putting him to sleep at that time (using the itty bitty bit of propofol as the final step)??

That would actually make more sense, especially when you consider what time it was and the jar full of propofol laced urine already collected in the jar (possibly from propofol given earlier in the morning to start the sedation which did put MJ down for a time??).

What Murray is covering up is that maybe he accidentally rapidly administered the bolus cuz he was too busy cooing on the phone with Sade Anding. If this sent MJ into some kind of reaction, then yes, Murray would have been present when Michael went into arrest.
 
I think Chernoff said MJ was awake most part of the night, at times walking from a room to another. He must have sneaked out while Murray was checking under the bed if the medication he was giving was leaking...
 
ivy said:
even if I believe defense strategy (which I don't) it's still too far fetched. defense said michael took 8 pills enough to put sleep 6 people. so it doesn't really seem realistic that michael would wake up , realize that murray was out of the room, want to get propofol and get / reach to the propofol (even mix and prepare it) and then drink/inject it. especially if the time frame is 2 minutes. we all heard michael being groggy in may 10 recording. I don't think 8 lorazepam pills are something that you wake up all bright and alert.



if that's the case i think the logical thing to argue would be he took them while he was taking the shower and came to bed 1-2 am.

then they would need to explain why mj wouldn't be able to sleep with 8 pills + 4mg IV from murray + propofol and would wake to get another dose of propofol.

also by the time 11 -12 the pills mj took will almost be close to their half time - assuming that he took them before without telling to murray like the defense claims. that will shot down propofol reacted with 8 pills theory.

but I'm not that knowledgeable medically





sure start a thread for defense strategy and another one for theories
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MJ taking the pills at 1-2am wouldn't make sense either. Why would he do that when he has Murray there to help put him to sleep. If he could take pills on his own, he wouldn't need Murray at all.

This is something I've been thinking of checking into again but havent had the time. When was the prescription for the loraz. issued...if anyone knows off the top of their heads?
 
wendy2004 said:
MJ taking the pills at 1-2am wouldn't make sense either. Why would he do that when he has Murray there to help put him to sleep. If he could take pills on his own, he wouldn't need Murray at all.

This is something I've been thinking of checking into again but havent had the time. When was the prescription for the loraz. issued...if anyone knows off the top of their heads?
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Also if he was still walking around, he did it with the IV still attach along with the condom catheter. Since there wasn't needles marks all over his leg, I doubt he kept taking it out and putting it back in. The condom catheter also shouldn't had collected as much waste either since Michael was awake and able to take his own self to the bathroom.
 
Soundmind said:
Chase testified MJ used to have his lunch at 12:30 pm . the call was made at 11:51 am . Murray had to awake MJ at that time so he could have enough time to fully recover from the meds effects .
I previoulsy thought flumazenil was indeed used in an attempt to revive MJ, after what Sophie said I no longer believe that.
Flumazenil was bought in LARGE amounts like lorazepam and midazolam , and we discussed this issue before on this board, flumazenil was used to stop the lorazepam effect before propofol was injected .

Now , on that day Murray headed to awake MJ, gave him flumazeni, flumazenil causes seizers in people who are dependent on benzos one of its contradictions "Underlying dependence upon benzodiazepines.Be prepared to manage seizures in patients who are physically dependent on benzodiazepines to control seizures" . Flumazenil is used to stop benzos effect to awake people from sedation during a surgery not really with people who take benzos on daily basis ,got it? It's another negligence act on Murray's part to use it like that.

its onset of action is seen within one to two minutes and peak after 6 to ten minutes . Inorder for Murray to make MJ believe he's awaking from propofol induced sedation he had to inject a bolus injection of propofol within one minute of the flumazenil injection, after 10 minutes MJ would be "fully" awake from lorazepam and experiencing propofol related 'feelings'.
Going back to what happened , he injected flumazenil. while MJ was awakining Murray injected propofol rapidly and killed him . it's compliated I know :closedeyes:
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Soundmind, this actually makes a lot of sense. I've always wondered what MJ was doing TRYING to sleep at that time. According to Chase, he'd already be awake and getting ready to have lunch with the kids.
 
sure start a thread for defense strategy and another one for theories
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Thank u :)

What Murray is covering up is that maybe he accidentally rapidly administered the bolus cuz he was too busy cooing on the phone with Sade Anding. If this sent MJ into some kind of reaction, then yes, Murray would have been present when Michael went into arrest.
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+1

When was the prescription for the loraz. issued...if anyone knows off the top of their heads?
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April 28
 
Soundmind said:
...MJ would be "fully" awake from lorazepam and experiencing propofol related 'feelings'.
Going back to what happened , he injected flumazenil. while MJ was awakining Murray injected propofol rapidly and killed him . it's compliated I know :closedeyes:
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I'm sorry if I'm missing an obvious point but why would Michael need to experience propofol related feelings when he was asleep from lorazepam as well? I mean the important thing was to get some sleep, right? Why should it matter if it was from propofol or lorazepam??
 
Loraz bottle was on the night stand according to fleck testimony
 
Murray would have been present when Michael went into arrest.
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I read a fan say that they heard murray was in the room when mj went into arrest
 
FOUND the links, in "evidence" (Radar Online) The lorazepam WAS in the bathroom, which means it would not have been possible for Michael to go IN there, and take "eight pills." So, that shuts down that line of defense? Only other line-of-defense is that he "self-injected" the propofol. I do think that the Radar Online leak was ACCURATE, that his fingerprints were not found. There's nothing else, is there? Except Murray's negligence?
 
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