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Murray Trial - 7 October - Day 9 - Discussion

Bonnie Blue said:
I think murray's interview is damning but feel the detectives were really incompetent, they could have nailed murray but didn't and have given him loopholes.

They seemed to accept that murray spent 12 HOURS watching mj trying to get to sleep, broken by short periods of adminstering various drugs. There was no attempt to pin him down. No questions of where he was sitting? was he sitting there the whole 12 hours with his eyes on mj, if not what was he doing? How did he go to the bathroom? What did monitoring mj entail, details of this and how often? What was mj doing when he couldn't sleep? etc etc Now that we have the phone records, they're not directly contradicted by murray in his interview as detectives didn't ask if he used his phone (they knew he had one), maybe chernoff can argue you can multi-task when monitoring someone on lazapam. Also the defence can now claim that mj was up and about popping pills as the detectives never asked what mj was doing for those 12 hours.

Also the detectives screwed up the timeline at the end of that 12 hour period (apologies if this already discussed, just skimmed thread). They got to 10.40-50ish when the propofol was given and then the next time was the 12.22 911 call, and nothing in between was timed. If murray waited 15 mins for prop to wear off before going off for his 2 min break, he would find mj not breathing around 11.10ish. But murrays description of his cpr etc efforts don't seem to have lasted over an hour. So it's more likely murray waited by mj alot longer after the prop injection and went to the bathroom shortly before 12. But this was never cleared up by the detectives and with all those potentially damning phonecalls in that period it allows murray leeway with his story which is annoying.

I realise it might not have looked like a murder investigation at this time, but the most famous person in the world had just died at 50 with no known illness. It was surely high-profile. And could they have found a noisier room to interview in?
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When Murray was interviewed the 'cause of death' wasn't known so they couldn't ask pertinent questions. However they have tied Murray in with answers which are blatantly untrue and so have proved already he lies. We just need to wait for the prosecution to bring up the relevant points to catch him out in his lies.
 
soulmum said:
When Murray was interviewed the 'cause of death' wasn't known so they couldn't ask pertinent questions. However they have tied Murray in with answers which are blatantly untrue and so have proved already he lies. We just need to wait for the prosecution to bring up the relevant points to catch him out in his lies.
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I agree. I feel that at the time the media was running with the drug abuse story, so the police were not as vigilant in questioning as they should be. It even took them some days to find Muarry. I expect all these points will be brought up during the trial, since it has only been about 2 weeks.

I just saw Etok on In Session saying Michael asked her for the drug and she asked her family who are connected to the medical field. They said they could not provide it. According to Etok she realized Michael was dependent on it and talked to him about it. They had a blow up on the phone and did not talk for some weeks. She spoke to the prosecution in 09. I did not hear here say this time that Michael wanted to have her baby though.
 
I thought etok had disappeared under a rock since her dance with fame in summer 09. I think she was implying she was mj's secret girlfriend at one point, or at least coyly not denying it. Can't stand these fame-hungry wannabes. The fact that the court decided she wasn't of any value as a witness, and the fact she has no photographic evidence she even met mj, means her ramblings about what conversations she may or may not have had with mj can be safely ignored imo.
 
Etoks a loony tune.thankfully she cant be called.ands its ridiculous that such ppl are allowed to do the rounds in the middle of the trial. i doubt she ever met or talked to mj. after all murray was the one buying all that crap
 
Bonnie Blue said:
And could they have found a noisier room to interview in?
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Isn't that something? Maybe I've watched too many crime dramas on TV but I always thought when you were questioned by police after an incident you were taken "downtown" to the station and questioned by some burly guy. But to do a police interview in some fancy schmancy hotel in a public place with all that background noise? That's LAPD for you. I don't think NYPD would be having that, heh.
 
Autumn II said:
I'm not understanding that on the one hand, it's being said that to think that Michael may have needed help and support is INSULTING? But, on the other, that "only Murray is responsible?" Those two ideas don't really go together? if he'd had that help and support, he'd be ALIVE? Fortunately, the "blame the victim" defense is being severely limited in court. As it SHOULD be.

No matter how important a person is, and how many friends a person has, there are times when a person just needs some HELP. As Kenny Ortega's letter CLEARLY indicates. I happen to believe his statements in the letter, actually. Others may disagree, and that's ok. But "insulting to Michael?" Sorry, not seeing any "insults" there. Just CONCERN. And, of course, now Michael has DIED. If just ONE person had been able to reach him, and/or check into Murray's past history and credentials, Michaael still might be ALIVE. The proof that they could not check on this is. . .Michael DIED.
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True, it's not a terrible thing to say Michael needed help. I don't care how old a person is, there are times when we all need help and support. Yes, he did have people who cared about him such as Kenny and Frank and I'm sure others. I guess they did what they could at the time. My opinion is the immediate help he needed was someone stepping in and haulting these concerts at the very first sign that Michael was not well. I mean, just recently some of that singer Adelle's tour performances had been cancelled because she had a cold or bronchitis. But this was not some cold Michael had. His symptoms were much more serious. So why didn't they do that for Michael? I guess it's fair to say that at the same time, his colleagues, friends or family did not know what was really going on with Murray. Who knows, maybe the concerts would have been cancelled had Michael lived a little longer and he continued to appear sicker and sicker. But it didn't work out that way, unfortunately. Regardless of all this, Dr. Murray was responsible for Michael's care and he failed to give him the proper care that would have prevented all of this from happening, beginning with saying the simple word "No" but at the very least using the proper monitoring equipment, not abandoning his patient, acting quickly to contact emergency personnel, being honest with said emergency personnel, etc etc etc.
 
Sometimes I feel that in the absence of Michael to provide some positive input by his presense, we get all negative and try to blame him. At least this is the feeling I get from the last few pages.

We must remember that the symptoms Michael had were due to something Muarry gave Michael, not due to people not caring about him, not due to psychological problems, not due to noone being there for him, not due to AGE personell not taking him to the doctor. Also, as Autumn stressed since the trial is going on let's be cautious of what we are saying. We have so much wrong analyses provided by the media already.
 
My post wasn´t anything more than an answer to one person. Someone did care, that is all I wanted to say.

And Murray is the only one to blaim. My comment about Michael being an grown man was more about that he can be really stubborn and when you want to help, he tells you it´s not needed.

It´s Murray´s fault and no one else, I have never said anything else.
 
All Murray had to do was tell AEG etc that MJ was not up to performing and he needed to be checked into a sleep clinic or something. It happens all the time with performers cancelling because of illness, rehab etc... A doctor's order is an excuse for a leave of absence due to health concerns. Instead of doing that Murray continued to drug MJ up and told everyone that MJ was fine, healthy and could do these shows:no: Murray makes me sick
 
Absolutely, Murray is the only one to blame for Michael's death.

However, looking at this with a broader (and more emotional) view and listening to that audio tape of Michael saying how he had no childhood and how much pressure he was feeling about these concerts and what he was (allegedly) willing to do to get his sleep...I know who I want to blame going back decades for what lead to all this and why Michael may have made the decisions he made to make sure these concerts happened and were perfect and the greatest. I sure do know who to blame but I think I'll withhold that cause I'm not sure it's appropriate to say here.

But the final blame is on Murray.
 
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suzynyc said:
Absolutely, Murray is the only one to blame for Michael's death.

However, looking at this with a broader (and more emotional) view and listening to that audio tape of Michael saying how he had no childhood and how much pressure he was feeling about these concerts and what he was (allegedly) willing to do to get his sleep...I know who I want to blame going back decades for what lead to all this and why Michael may have made the decisions he made to make sure these concerts happened and were perfect and the greatest. I sure do know who to blame but I think I'll withhold that cause I'm not sure it's appropriate to say here.

But the finale blame is on Murray.
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I'm right there with you and I know who to blame too
 
Autumn II said:
It's clear that at least Kenny Ortega DID care, and that letter to Randy Phillips is the proof of that, where he shows his concern for Michael, and actually DOES suggest the Michael might need counseling, and that his health seemed fragile. The family, on the other hand, actually had little contact with Michael and might not have been aware that he had any problems? (I don't really blame the family in this one.) I hardly think that concern for Michael is "insulting," at ALL. In retrospect, we now can see that things were NOT right.

With that said, this is not a really great argument to be having at this time? Because the TRIAL is ongoing? Those who say "Michael was a grown-ass man" and was responsible for his own judgments, all the time, may serve the DEFENSE in that that really IS the crux of the trial? I.e., what responsibility does Michael bear? Yes, he was an adult. He was also doing something very unwise. It's been a subject of the tv talking heads, frequently, and that very question has been asked? "WHO is responsible, and does MICHAEL bear responsibility?" Those who say "he was a grown ass man" might be feeding into that! Much as I loathe her for her past statements about Michael, Nancy Grace says Michael is NOT responsible for what happened to him. I.e., yes, he was an adult, but was also doing something EXTREMELY unwise. . . . but no, he's not responsible. Only Murray, as the medical professional, is responsible.

I'm not understanding that on the one hand, it's being said that to think that Michael may have needed help and support is INSULTING? But, on the other, that "only Murray is responsible?" Those two ideas don't really go together? if he'd had that help and support, he'd be ALIVE? Fortunately, the "blame the victim" defense is being severely limited in court. As it SHOULD be.

No matter how important a person is, and how many friends a person has, there are times when a person just needs some HELP. As Kenny Ortega's letter CLEARLY indicates. I happen to believe his statements in the letter, actually. Others may disagree, and that's ok. But "insulting to Michael?" Sorry, not seeing any "insults" there. Just CONCERN. And, of course, now Michael has DIED. If just ONE person had been able to reach him, and/or check into Murray's past history and credentials, Michaael still might be ALIVE. The proof that they could not check on this is. . .Michael DIED.
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I'm not sure what you're saying I said, but I did not blame Michael nor did I insult him so I don't know to whom you're talking. Please don't quote me when you're basically replying to someone else.

Anyway, I do think that he was not thinking clearly and needed help. That does not take away from the fact that he was desperate.... unbelievably desperate to get *some* rest at night. Anybody would lose their mind slowly if faced with night after night of no sleep. I've been there somewhat and I know the feeling. It's sad, really, how close to the edge it all went and then he toppled over and there was no one to pull him back.

Anyway, I am not blaming Michael in any way. I am trying to figure his mentality in those last few months out. It's difficult and at times I just choke up. I did a lot of weeping two years ago and now I just want to figure things out. And I think a lot of fans are where I am. Maybe we just are looking for some closure. Pretty sure we may not get it.

Murray, on the other hand, is clearly to blame. No one -- at least not me -- is disputing that.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
I think murray's interview is damning but feel the detectives were really incompetent, they could have nailed murray but didn't and have given him loopholes.

They seemed to accept that murray spent 12 HOURS watching mj trying to get to sleep, broken by short periods of adminstering various drugs. There was no attempt to pin him down. No questions of where he was sitting? was he sitting there the whole 12 hours with his eyes on mj, if not what was he doing? How did he go to the bathroom? What did monitoring mj entail, details of this and how often? What was mj doing when he couldn't sleep? etc etc Now that we have the phone records, they're not directly contradicted by murray in his interview as detectives didn't ask if he used his phone (they knew he had one), maybe chernoff can argue you can multi-task when monitoring someone on lazapam. Also the defence can now claim that mj was up and about popping pills as the detectives never asked what mj was doing for those 12 hours.

Also the detectives screwed up the timeline at the end of that 12 hour period (apologies if this already discussed, just skimmed thread). They got to 10.40-50ish when the propofol was given and then the next time was the 12.22 911 call, and nothing in between was timed. If murray waited 15 mins for prop to wear off before going off for his 2 min break, he would find mj not breathing around 11.10ish. But murrays description of his cpr etc efforts don't seem to have lasted over an hour. So it's more likely murray waited by mj alot longer after the prop injection and went to the bathroom shortly before 12. But this was never cleared up by the detectives and with all those potentially damning phonecalls in that period it allows murray leeway with his story which is annoying.

I realise it might not have looked like a murder investigation at this time, but the most famous person in the world had just died at 50 with no known illness. It was surely high-profile. And could they have found a noisier room to interview in?
Click to expand...

I think the whole timing issue and the reason the detectives missed it is because Murray said nothing to them about the phone calls he was making. I think they were confused but did not know exactly which action/timing of his to pinpoint at the time. And I agree about the whole homicide thing. They didn't know at the time that it would be a homicide case.

That said, most detectives aren't Sherlock Holmes. I think we all know that.
 
I'd like to know what Tohme was doing during all this? Wasn't he pissed that MJ had just given him the boot and signed Frank to manage him again? Tohme, as I understand had been around when CM had been pumping Michael during those last few months.

He always seemed creepy to me.
 
LuvUMost said:
I'd like to know what Tohme was doing during all this? Wasn't he pissed that MJ had just given him the boot and signed Frank to manage him again? Tohme, as I understand had been around when CM had been pumping Michael during those last few months.

He always seemed creepy to me.
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Well A lot of people were around during the time Murray was administering propoful to Michael.
Not just Thome and being creepy is not evidence of him having anything to do with Murray's actions that resulted in MJ's death on June 25th. We can speculate till the cows come home but this case isnt against anyone but Dr Murray. This forum is reserved for dicussing the evidence and testimony in the Dr Murray Trail. We do have a controversy forum where you are welcome to discuss conspiracy theories though. Start a thread in there and post your evidence and I and others will be happy to discuss your theories with you.
 
jaydom7 said:
All Murray had to do was tell AEG etc that MJ was not up to performing and he needed to be checked into a sleep clinic or something. It happens all the time with performers cancelling because of illness, rehab etc... A doctor's order is an excuse for a leave of absence due to health concerns. Instead of doing that Murray continued to drug MJ up and told everyone that MJ was fine, healthy and could do these shows:no: Murray makes me sick
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The pressure on Michael to deliver with these shows was astronomical. It would've been a huge scandal if MJ had cancelled this tour, the first tour he had done in over a decade. The media and fan backlash would've been huge and Michael must've known this. I think he probably felt like calling it off wasn't an option.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
you are totally correct. thats one of murrays many lies. chernoff said murray came back in the room eyes open and he eas gone so there was nothing he could do. thats a defence for not calling 911.but murray tells a diff story in the police interview
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sorry just got this now didnt think anyone would respond to my question see thankyou i knew i was right!!! Just proves to me more and more everyday how incompetent this man was hes so guilty its blatently obvious. Thankyou for your answer.
 
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