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Murray Trial - 7 October - Day 9 - Discussion

Popescu:

I was under the impression that perhaps not only could Propofol cause pain to the vein if not mixed w/ Lidocaine but that it might actually cause inflammation or damage to the vein (eg: phlebitis)...but I was just reading the package insert on Propofol from the drug company (link below) and it seems that phlebitis is a very rare side effect.

I did find an interesting tidbit from this same document, indicating that if one is diluting Propofol, they should only ever be using an IV solution of D5W (5% dextrose IV solution)....AND if administering using a Y-type administration set, of the compatible IV solutions listed, normal saline is not one of them. Normal Saline is generally 0.9% and I assume that's what Murray was using. I guess if we looked up the records from Sea Coast medical supplies, it would specify the Normal Saline he had ordered/was using.....

If you look at this info from the package insert, compatible IV solutions for Y-site administration that contain Normal Saline are a lesser concentration (0.2 % and 0.45% sodium chloride). But I believe Murray was using just straight Normal Saline (sodium chloride) of 0.9%.

Compatibility and Stability: DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should not be mixed with other therapeutic agents prior to administration.
Dilution Prior to Administration: DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion is provided as a ready to use formulation. However, should dilution be necessary, it
should only be diluted with 5% Dextrose Injection, USP, and it should not be diluted to a concentration less than 2 mg/mL because it is an emulsion. In diluted
form it has been shown to be more stable when in contact with glass than with plastic (95% potency after 2 hours of running infusion in plastic).
Administration with Other Fluids: Compatibility of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion with the coadministration of blood/serum/plasma has not been established.
(See WARNINGS.) When administered using a y-type infusion set, DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion has been shown to be compatible with the following
intravenous fluids.
– 5% Dextrose Injection, USP
– Lactated Ringers Injection, USP
– Lactated Ringers and 5% Dextrose Injection
– 5% Dextrose and 0.45% Sodium Chloride Injection, USP
– 5% Dextrose and 0.2% Sodium Chloride Injection, USP

The above excerpt comes from bottom left of page 4 of this document:

http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/diprivan.pdf
 
Thank you so much for the link!
You should look mainly at ICU sedation, since what has happened is more similar to that except there were 12-14-16 hours breaks in between. And I found another interesting tidbit on the last page, this is where he got his info from:

Guidelines for Aseptic Technique for ICU Sedation
DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion should be prepared for single-patient use only. When DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion is administered directly from the vial, strict aseptic techniques must be followed. The vial rubber stopper should be disinfected using 70% isopropyl alcohol. A sterile vent spike and sterile tubing must be used for administration of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion. As with other lipid emulsions, the number of IV line manipulations should be minimized.
Administration should commence promptly and must be completed within 12 hours after the vial has been spiked. The tubing and any unused portions of DIPRIVAN Injectable Emulsion must be discarded after 12 hours.

The sterile vent spike is the needle I was talking about earlier.

Also, was the vial found on the floor empty?
 
classic said:
I wonder how much info. Adams or his attorney gave to the prosecution. Very scary if what he says is true.

There are just so many "if onlys" in this situation. It just really makes me angry that any doctor would have made Michael feel that this was okay, particularly not using the right monitoring procedures/equipment. I just don't understand the lack of that. Even if the goal was greed and Murray didn't want anyone else assisting, then it still doesn't explain the lack of appropriate monitoring. It doesn't explain Michael being sick that day that Ortega was very concerned and Murray getting angry that he was sent home. The better he did his job, the less likely Michael would have even wanted anyone else. How would he have convinced Michael that such was okay, assuming that Michael new all that was being given to him? Something is badly missing in all of this.

I wonder how detailed or far back investigators went with Murray's phone records.

The other thing is that the attorney for Adams claims that Murray had been trying to get doctors to administer propofol to Michael since 2007. Really? Yet there was not one doctor to bring this up to a medical ethics board or anything?
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wow, just wow. I saw that interview and was just floored at the vehemence in Adams' atty's voice. So why aren't the prosecution bringing in Adams as witness?
 
What I do NOT understand, is that at $150,000 a MONTH, why Murray could not have bought, himself, proper equipment, or even hired a NURSE? We've seen in testimony, that the pulse oxymeter had no "alarm," and that Murray could have rented the appropriate equipment, himself, at only forty dollars, a month. We have also seen that he did not have proper "rescue equipment," i.e., defib device. This was ENTIRELY, ad hoc. Was he really as greedy as that, that he did not want to pay for proper equipment, out of his own pocket? I think SO! SHAME, on him!

An "I.V. drip" is NOT just someone slowly pushing a drug, but an actual device that calibrates amount of drug, over a specific time-duration. Murray did not have even THAT, but was just pushing the drug slowly, regardless of the result. This is SO bad. .
 
Wow such a shame.. once again no one cares about MJ. All they cared about was his money:no:
 
Autumn II said:
What I do NOT understand, is that at $150,000 a MONTH, why Murray could not have bought, himself, proper equipment, or even hired a NURSE? We've seen in testimony, that the pulse oxymeter had no "alarm," and that Murray could have rented the appropriate equipment, himself, at only forty dollars, a month. We have also seen that he did not have proper "rescue equipment," i.e., defib device. This was ENTIRELY, ad hoc. Was he really as greedy as that, that he did not want to pay for proper equipment, out of his own pocket? I think SO! SHAME, on him!
An "I.V. drip" is NOT just someone slowly pushing a drug, but an actual device that calibrates amount of drug, over a specific time-duration. Murray did not have even THAT, but was just pushing the drug slowly, regardless of the result. This is SO bad. .
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Poor MJ.. to be so desperate to allow Murray to do this to him.. When Mike started feeling sick he should've went to the hospital. Murray was killing him
 
Murray was never paid. He wasn't due to start receiving that amount until he got to London. And the contract was never signed.
 
jaydom7 said:
Wow such a shame.. once again no one cares about MJ. All they cared about was his money:no:
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What is it with you and the whole 'no-one cared for Michael' spiel? Yes, people took advantage of Michael's nature, some were only in his life for the financial and other gain. But to say that no-one in Michael's life cared for him is offensive.
 
TheChosenOne said:
What is it with you and the whole 'no-one cared for Michael' spiel? Yes, people took advantage of Michael's nature, some were only in his life for the financial and other gain. But to say that no-one in Michael's life cared for him is offensive.
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well in my opinion his family and friends didn't help him at all.. I think we the fans would've helped if we could've. Murray was slowly killing MJ and no one did anything about it.. His co-workers knew he was acting different and was sick, his family saw him in May at the anniversary dinner and said he was thin and frail and no one said a word. Murray was coming over everyday putting MJ in a coma and no one said a word. I think Michael Amir and company knew something was happening why didn't they help him? In my opinion if someone loved and cared about MJ, he would still be here.
 
jaydom7 said:
well in my opinion his family and friends didn't help him at all.. I think we the fans would've helped if we could've. Murray was slowly killing MJ and no one did anything about it.. His co-workers knew he was acting different and was sick, his family saw him in May at the anniversary dinner and said he was thin and frail and no one said a word. Murray was coming over everyday putting MJ in a coma and no one said a word. I think Michael Amir and company knew something was happening why didn't they help him? In my opinion if someone loved and cared about MJ, he would still be here.
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Ok, this is really just insulting to Michael at this point.

Michael was a grown ass man. He was capable of caring for himself like any other adult. For you or anyone else, to reduce his adulthood so you can spread blame to others isn't fair to them or to Michael's memory. His co-workers and friends did what they could. They weren't in Michael's bedroom, they weren't the ones who saw Murray pumping drugs into him every night, they were the ones who reached out to the doctor and told to mind their damn business.

This self-righteous act needs to stop because you're putting the blame on everyone, even those who couldn't really help. If you blame Kenny and the rest of TII why not go to the full conclusion and blame Michael as well. He was the one who hired Murray, he was the one who let Murray pump drugs into him, he was the one who assured Kenny that everything was fine when he voiced his concerns, he was the one who wanted to do TII to begin with, he was the one who allowed Murray to 'slowly' kill him in your words and he allowed. Why is Michael exempt from his own behavior in your eyes? Using your logic, Michael is just as much to blame as Murray.

The only person who is to blame is Murray and Murray alone. Stop trying to pass your hurt and your own anger to everyone else in Michael's life. The fact is being loved doesn't stop you from being murdered. That's life.
 
I have a question sorry if this is naive or irrelevant but its been bugging me. Murray said in the police tapes that he noticed Michael wasnt breathing because he looked at his chest, but then others dunno if it was the security guard of paramedic said that Michaels eyes were open. It just sounds like to me that Murray would have noticed that Michael was unresponsive or not breathing due to the fact that his eyes were open and not that his chest wasnt moving? Have i missed something between those times cause it doesnt make sense to me.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Ok, this is really just insulting to Michael at this point.

Michael was a grown ass man. He was capable of caring for himself like any other adult. For you or anyone else, to reduce his adulthood so you can spread blame to others isn't fair to them or to Michael's memory. His co-workers and friends did what they could. They weren't in Michael's bedroom, they weren't the ones who saw Murray pumping drugs into him every night, they were the ones who reached out to the doctor and told to mind their damn business.

This self-righteous act needs to stop because you're putting the blame on everyone, even those who couldn't really help. If you blame Kenny and the rest of TII why not go to the full conclusion and blame Michael as well. He was the one who hired Murray, he was the one who let Murray pump drugs into him, he was the one who assured Kenny that everything was fine when he voiced his concerns, he was the one who wanted to do TII to begin with, he was the one who allowed Murray to 'slowly' kill him in your words and he allowed. Why is Michael exempt from his own behavior in your eyes? Using your logic, Michael is just as much to blame as Murray.

The only person who is to blame is Murray and Murray alone. Stop trying to pass your hurt and your own anger to everyone else in Michael's life. The fact is being loved doesn't stop you from being murdered. That's life.
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Ramona I'm sorry, but it is obvious to me that MJ was not capable of making his own decisions. He obviously had some issues that he needed help with. Allowing a doctor to put him in a coma nightly tells me that he needed help. Be it a therapist or a psychologist to help him with his pain and trauma or what have you, he needed it. I think his family and friends should've helped him more. It was so obvious over the years how many took advantage of MJ. The allegations, the lawsuits and other crazy stuff that was happening to him. Did his family not notice? why wouldn't they question who was around him? Even his brother, Randy, claimed he didn't like the people MJ surrounded himself with, then why didn't they do anything about it? Mike was being robbed blind, was put into a coma and recorded by a shady ass doctor and no one did a thing to help MJ.
 
jaydom7 said:
Ramona I'm sorry, but it is obvious to me that MJ was not capable of making his own decisions. He obviously had some issues that he needed help with. Allowing a doctor to put him in a coma nightly tells me that he needed help. Be it a therapist or a psychologist to help him with his pain and trauma or what have you, he needed it. I think his family and friends should've helped him more. It was so obvious over the years how many took advantage of MJ. The allegations, the lawsuits and other crazy stuff that was happening to him. Did his family not notice? why wouldn't they question who was around him? Even his brother, Randy, claimed he didn't like the people MJ surrounded himself with, then why didn't they do anything about it? Mike was being robbed blind, was put into a coma and recorded by a shady ass doctor and no one did a thing to help MJ.
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Sorry you feel that way. To me that is a big insult to Michael. If you want to view him a child who needed the protection of others, fine. But, you're doing no favors to Michael or everything he has done by viewing him in that way.

With that said, it's obvious that Michael himself didn't want that kind of help because if he did, he would had gotten it himself. You can force someone into therapy or whatever, so that's still on Michael. He was the one who held the responsibility to get help, so even from this point of view, it's still his fault.

But, whatever.
 
Look, I love Michael but I'm going to be honest here and say that he was obviously not functioning on full thrusters. Do we agree that Michael wanted to go to sleep almost nightly with the help of Propofol -- an anesthetic? Are any of us doubtful of the fact that Michael wanted that drug in order to go to sleep? Do any of us think that Murray bullied him into using it?

No, right?

That's not normal behavior. No "normally functioning" -- mentally and physically -- person would do this to himself.

Let's not blame the family. I believe that at some point, Michael did shut a lot of people out of his daily life. He felt he knew best about what he needed. At the end of his life, he'd learned his lesson and trusted very few people and, for the most part, his judgment was correct. Unfortunately, at the end of his life, he trusted the wrong person with the most crucial job.

Murray, IMO, is a greedy asshole who lies with impunity. That statement he gave to the police is so full of falsehoods that I find myself balling my fists and gritting my teeth in order to not hit out indiscriminately and smash my laptop as I read the transcript. In any other person's hands -- a person with integrity and a bit of sense -- Michael would have been alive now.

Michael has already paid for his lack of judgment with his life. Much as we hate it, there is nothing we can do about that now. All we can do is hope that Murray is brought to justice.
 
indranee said:
wow, just wow. I saw that interview and was just floored at the vehemence in Adams' atty's voice. So why aren't the prosecution bringing in Adams as witness?
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ibelieve he is on the pros witness list. and considering what his lawyer has been saying u would want that said on the stand aswell.
 
TheChosenOne said:
What is it with you and the whole 'no-one cared for Michael' spiel? Yes, people took advantage of Michael's nature, some were only in his life for the financial and other gain. But to say that no-one in Michael's life cared for him is offensive.
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Its kaymon thats why!who on another board they spent years on before they were banned did nothing but complain at michael for doing nothing and not working and not entertaining her. she complained that mj spent to much time with his kids. so if we wanna look at blaming ppl we can add fans like that who pressured mj to get back to work cause thats all they cared about. . no one can say kenny didnt care after his testimony
 
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emmy18 said:
I have a question sorry if this is naive or irrelevant but its been bugging me. Murray said in the police tapes that he noticed Michael wasnt breathing because he looked at his chest, but then others dunno if it was the security guard of paramedic said that Michaels eyes were open. It just sounds like to me that Murray would have noticed that Michael was unresponsive or not breathing due to the fact that his eyes were open and not that his chest wasnt moving? Have i missed something between those times cause it doesnt make sense to me.
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you are totally correct. thats one of murrays many lies. chernoff said murray came back in the room eyes open and he eas gone so there was nothing he could do. thats a defence for not calling 911.but murray tells a diff story in the police interview
 
jaydom7;3508051 said:
well in my opinion his family and friends didn't help him at all.. I think we the fans would've helped if we could've. Murray was slowly killing MJ and no one did anything about it.. His co-workers knew he was acting different and was sick, his family saw him in May at the anniversary dinner and said he was thin and frail and no one said a word. Murray was coming over everyday putting MJ in a coma and no one said a word. I think Michael Amir and company knew something was happening why didn't they help him? In my opinion if someone loved and cared about MJ, he would still be here.
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Someone did love and care about him. People can´t be in two places at the same time. And Michael´s a grown man who could take care of himself, he got the support, but you can´t expect someone to be his guardian all the time.
I hope that someone doesn´t need to hear things like that coming from fans like you. It´s sad to read really. :(

Sorry for this small attack on another person but it´s really hard to read over and over again about this "if he only had someone".
 
Kaymon/jaydom has spent the last 10 years critizing mj and saying these things. best to use the ignore funtion
 
indranee said:
Look, I love Michael but I'm going to be honest here and say that he was obviously not functioning on full thrusters. Do we agree that Michael wanted to go to sleep almost nightly with the help of Propofol -- an anesthetic? Are any of us doubtful of the fact that Michael wanted that drug in order to go to sleep? Do any of us think that Murray bullied him into using it?

No, right?

That's not normal behavior. No "normally functioning" -- mentally and physically -- person would do this to himself.

Let's not blame the family. I believe that at some point, Michael did shut a lot of people out of his daily life. He felt he knew best about what he needed. At the end of his life, he'd learned his lesson and trusted very few people and, for the most part, his judgment was correct. Unfortunately, at the end of his life, he trusted the wrong person with the most crucial job.

Murray, IMO, is a greedy asshole who lies with impunity. That statement he gave to the police is so full of falsehoods that I find myself balling my fists and gritting my teeth in order to not hit out indiscriminately and smash my laptop as I read the transcript. In any other person's hands -- a person with integrity and a bit of sense -- Michael would have been alive now.

Michael has already paid for his lack of judgment with his life. Much as we hate it, there is nothing we can do about that now. All we can do is hope that Murray is brought to justice.
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It's clear that at least Kenny Ortega DID care, and that letter to Randy Phillips is the proof of that, where he shows his concern for Michael, and actually DOES suggest the Michael might need counseling, and that his health seemed fragile. The family, on the other hand, actually had little contact with Michael and might not have been aware that he had any problems? (I don't really blame the family in this one.) I hardly think that concern for Michael is "insulting," at ALL. In retrospect, we now can see that things were NOT right.

With that said, this is not a really great argument to be having at this time? Because the TRIAL is ongoing? Those who say "Michael was a grown-ass man" and was responsible for his own judgments, all the time, may serve the DEFENSE in that that really IS the crux of the trial? I.e., what responsibility does Michael bear? Yes, he was an adult. He was also doing something very unwise. It's been a subject of the tv talking heads, frequently, and that very question has been asked? "WHO is responsible, and does MICHAEL bear responsibility?" Those who say "he was a grown ass man" might be feeding into that! Much as I loathe her for her past statements about Michael, Nancy Grace says Michael is NOT responsible for what happened to him. I.e., yes, he was an adult, but was also doing something EXTREMELY unwise. . . . but no, he's not responsible. Only Murray, as the medical professional, is responsible.

I'm not understanding that on the one hand, it's being said that to think that Michael may have needed help and support is INSULTING? But, on the other, that "only Murray is responsible?" Those two ideas don't really go together? if he'd had that help and support, he'd be ALIVE? Fortunately, the "blame the victim" defense is being severely limited in court. As it SHOULD be.

No matter how important a person is, and how many friends a person has, there are times when a person just needs some HELP. As Kenny Ortega's letter CLEARLY indicates. I happen to believe his statements in the letter, actually. Others may disagree, and that's ok. But "insulting to Michael?" Sorry, not seeing any "insults" there. Just CONCERN. And, of course, now Michael has DIED. If just ONE person had been able to reach him, and/or check into Murray's past history and credentials, Michaael still might be ALIVE. The proof that they could not check on this is. . .Michael DIED.
 
Autumn II said:
The payment he did or did not recieve is entirely not a factor, in what he did or did not do for/to Michael. He thought he would receive payment?
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Irregardless of the issue of administering the drug in a home setting, I cannot believe that if murray had said to Michael: this is the equipment/personnel that I need in order to safely do this Propofol thing, without it, it is too dangerous, that murray wouldn't have gotten what he needed. This tells me that murray either was supremely confident/arrogant or greedy and thought he could do it all by himself or he didn't have a clue as to what the ramifications were of what he was doing. Or all of the above.
 
I just posted this in the "debunking Murray's police interview thread" but I notice that you guys were talking about the police interview here so I wanted to point this out, I just copied my post and I'm gonna paste it here to see what you guys think and if anyone else noticed this too:

I'm just listening to the recordings now and I noticed that when he was talking about trying to do cpr and he called Michael Amir he said... "I returned to his body..." His body? Uh wouldn't you say I returned to Mr. Jackson, I returned to him, or returned to Michael? You don't refer to someone with the word "body" while they are still alive, that is something you say once someone is gone.
 
yeah he returned to his body because MJ was dead and Murray knew it
 
I just want to be sure we will be VERY careful about statements that imply that Michael was responsible in any way, shape, or form, for his own death!!! Sure, he was an adult, but who was around him and who did or did not help, is a private issue that we really aren't that privy to?
 
Autumn II said:
I hardly think that concern for Michael is "insulting," at ALL. In retrospect, we now can see that things were NOT right.


I'm not understanding that on the one hand, it's being said that to think that Michael may have needed help and support is INSULTING? But, on the other, that "only Murray is responsible?" Those two ideas don't really go together? if he'd had that help and support, he'd be ALIVE? Fortunately, the "blame the victim" defense is being severely limited in court. As it SHOULD be.
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I understand what you are saying Autumn II. But my point is simply - do not make it seem as though NO-ONE cared for Michael. It is a recurring theme in jaydom7's posts. And while all of your points are valid, I still maintain that to make it seem as though he was a totally helpless human being in desperate need of help and NO-ONE cared enough to do anything, is wrong.

There is a difference between "woe is Michael, he put his trust in the wrong doctor and it cost him his life" and "woe is Michael, he is so damaged and incapable of caring for himself and so unloved that nobody saved him from Murray". For me the latter is insulting.

Michael is the victim, yes, but we do not need to make him the hapless and helpless victim to prove the point!
 
I think murray's interview is damning but feel the detectives were really incompetent, they could have nailed murray but didn't and have given him loopholes.

They seemed to accept that murray spent 12 HOURS watching mj trying to get to sleep, broken by short periods of adminstering various drugs. There was no attempt to pin him down. No questions of where he was sitting? was he sitting there the whole 12 hours with his eyes on mj, if not what was he doing? How did he go to the bathroom? What did monitoring mj entail, details of this and how often? What was mj doing when he couldn't sleep? etc etc Now that we have the phone records, they're not directly contradicted by murray in his interview as detectives didn't ask if he used his phone (they knew he had one), maybe chernoff can argue you can multi-task when monitoring someone on lazapam. Also the defence can now claim that mj was up and about popping pills as the detectives never asked what mj was doing for those 12 hours.

Also the detectives screwed up the timeline at the end of that 12 hour period (apologies if this already discussed, just skimmed thread). They got to 10.40-50ish when the propofol was given and then the next time was the 12.22 911 call, and nothing in between was timed. If murray waited 15 mins for prop to wear off before going off for his 2 min break, he would find mj not breathing around 11.10ish. But murrays description of his cpr etc efforts don't seem to have lasted over an hour. So it's more likely murray waited by mj alot longer after the prop injection and went to the bathroom shortly before 12. But this was never cleared up by the detectives and with all those potentially damning phonecalls in that period it allows murray leeway with his story which is annoying.

I realise it might not have looked like a murder investigation at this time, but the most famous person in the world had just died at 50 with no known illness. It was surely high-profile. And could they have found a noisier room to interview in?
 
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TheChosenOne said:
I understand what you are saying Autumn II. But my point is simply - do not make it seem as though NO-ONE cared for Michael. It is a recurring theme in jaydom7's posts. And while all of your points are valid, I still maintain that to make it seem as though he was a totally helpless human being in desperate need of help and NO-ONE cared enough to do anything, is wrong.

There is a difference between "woe is Michael, he put his trust in the wrong doctor and it cost him his life" and "woe is Michael, he is so damaged and incapable of caring for himself and so unloved that nobody saved him from Murray". For me the latter is insulting.

Michael is the victim, yes, but we do not need to make him the hapless and helpless victim to prove the point!
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Oh, I agree. The fact is, we really have no idea what went on behind the scenes, and who or did not try to help. I certainly wouldn't characterize Michael as "helpless," either. But yet, something quite terrible WAS going on -- which we heard on that awful tape played in the trial. So of course, it's not an "either/or," situation, not black or white. Obviously, Kenny Ortega knew something was not right, and in fact, as we know, he DID try to help.

So was Michael "helpless?" No. Did he need to GET AWAY from Murray? Of course. And, he didn't make it. I do worry that the "Michael was an adult" statements bear the inference that he was some way RESPONSIBLE for what happened to him. No. Michael WAS an adult, but sometimes things go terribly wrong. Murray was responsible. Not Michael.
 
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