Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

I feel sick at what I'm reading...

Once again thanks for the updates and informative discussion guys, much appreciated.
 
just a random question. can the lawyers talk with their witnesses in between breaks, like " could u clarify this or that" or is that illegal coaching of a witness?
 
Back on the computer..totally uncoordinated on small keyboards. ugh!

A little jury update per the tv folks in the courtroom.

Jurors are furiously taking notes still...BUT near the end just before lunch, some dropped off. As always, my hope is that when they stop writing it's becuz they feel they have enuf info OR they are so riveted by what they are seeing that they'd rather pay attention to the charts than miss anything.

ALSO...a juicy tidbit. On another floor, during lunch break, Alan Duke (I think that's his name) overhead Chernoff and Dr. White in a heated discussion that included Chernoff saying something about not taking things personally. My guess, Dr. WHite ain't too happy about Shafer throwing major shade at him during direct exam. Should be interesting if Shafer's testimony is somehow rattling White. ehehe.
 
If he put Michael on a drip, Michael would have been sedated, unconscious. So why would murray go out of the room to make his phone calls? As long as that drip is running, Michael will be out of it until the drip stops. Murray's calls won't disturb him so why would murray leave?
Also about that d* tubing that's not found...the defense during their go at the toxicologist, I think it was, asked whether 'spiking' the propofol bottle could be not just for infusing but also to draw it out quicker (if I remember correctly) implying , I thought, that murray was using the iv tubing to draw out the prop. without having to puncture the bottle. Far fetched idea but they ra raised it. If that is the case, then once again, what happened to that tubing? If murray was innocently ( I choke on the word) drawing out prop. using that system, why wasn't it found?
Because he was dripping it in, is why.
 
Walgren: "Dr.Shaffer, you can say 'here' but could you clarify for the transcript, as to where you're pointing to?"

Dr. Shaffer: "There" :lmao:

Judge Pastor : That's what happens Dr.Shaffer when you take a long lunch" :lol:

oh Dr. Shaffer you're brilliant! :D
 
82Thriller84 said:
Walgren: "Dr.Shaffer, you can say 'here' but could you clarify as for the transcript where you're pointing to?"

Dr. Shaffer: "There" :lmao:

Judge Pastor : That's what happens Dr.Shaffer when you take a long lunch" :lol:

oh Dr. Shaffer! :lol:
Click to expand...

Haha, the whole courtroom was laughing at that. He's so cute. :lol:
 
another senario of murray giving repeated injections 6 injections of 50 mg . shaffer says when u remove the theory of self injection its easy to construct a senario where the level of concentration found at autopsy was caused by murray. was mj gone when murray kept giving diprivan? it could go either way says shaffer. breathing stopped after the second or third dose circulation stopped a few mins after the last dose. mj wouldnt be alive based on the above senario. would mj be gone prior to the 6th injection. yes its possible he could have stopped breathing after 1 min gone after 15 mins. this theory gives a plausable reason for the femoral blood level being what it was.

he rejected the other theories that were all named earlier cause the concentration levels at TOD didnt match.they werent high enough. cant self inject cause the concentration levels go down everytime mj wakes up so the levels are to low compaired to what was found at autopsy.and mj would need 1.5hrs to do it

second self injection theory is rejected for the same reasons as above.

murray injecting mj repeatedly is supported becasue mj was asleep. he never woke up for the levels to go down.that supports the high levels shaffer doesnt think this senario is correct though. cause it would be crazy for murray to sit there injecting mj non stop

shaffer did come up with a theory which he believes is what happened. that is the infusion of 100 ml

jurrors gone to the toilet
 
ivy said:
I think Shafer is just making an estimation here. For example his models do not include Michael getting Lorazepam the day before. With 16 hours half time some of Lorazepam given to him on June 23 still has to be in his system.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the 0.169 blood level based off of pure lorazepam only, not the lorazepam-glucuronate metabolite? I think 16 hours is the elimination half life, not the activity half life (which would be shorter and based on glucuronidation in the liver). So you could have ~30 mg in your system, but only 11 of it is the active form of the drug. Propofol acts in a similar but different fashion, it's elimination half life is 30-90 minutes, but its active effect is only ~5 minutes (although it is inactivated in a completely different way).

This is just my guess, based on the pharmacology I know so please don't take it as fact (we've covered propofol, but we haven't gotten to lorazepam in class yet, so I am not completely sure, but based on other drugs it makes sense). I am sure Dr. Shafer will clarify upon cross anyways.
 
Murray may or may not have leave the room but I strongly believe he did. Also, its possible Murray did not leave the room but he is multi-tasking (on phonecall, texting, etc) and not paying attention to Michael.
 
Gotta say I'm loving this process of elimination Walgren and Shafer are going through. THey are rejecting certain possible scenarios based on the scientic evidence and blood levels. Brilliant. This really limits the defense in their "what ifs" and leaves only the possibility of a drip being used or Murray needing to stand there and inject an amount every so often in the absence of a drip or pump. And since we know he was on the phone during the timetable at hand, he either left MJ on a drip while he was out of the room OR that b**tard was on the phone while he was injecting and not noticing MJ wasn't even breathing anymore. NEITHER makes Murray look good. Toast!
 
Also, thanks to everybody for the updates, it is so helpful when I am in school during testimony to be able to read everything that happened :flowers: you guys are the best!
 
urgh i just knocked my link off for a min. anything said after he starts talking about giving 100ml via iv
 
xthunderx2 said:
yup just as we knew,

really juror 9 has to go to the bathroom??? didnt they just have almost 2 hours off....jeez.
Click to expand...

I thought he ate something bad lol but I was also like "really? now you want to leave??"
 
HumanNature2210 said:
Murray may or may not have leave the room but I strongly believe he did. Also, its possible Murray did not leave the room but he is multi-tasking (on phonecall, texting, etc) and not paying attention to Michael.
Click to expand...

My mother's colleagues first speculated that he fell asleep. They did not know anything anything about the case at the time but still thought that he gave a drip and found him when he was already gone.
 
If CM had been with MJ when the breathing slowed down, he would have seen what was happening.
 
ivy said:
I think Shafer is just making an estimation here. For example his models do not include Michael getting Lorazepam the day before. With 16 hours half time some of Lorazepam given to him on June 23 still has to be in his system.
Click to expand...

If you assume time of death to be noon, 9 - 16 hours before that would be between 8 pm on June 24 and 3 am on June 25. I don't think you'd still have a lot in the blood from the evening before.
 
From 11 to 11.45, MJ's breathing is getting slower and slower, Shafer is making disturbing choking sounds, Walgreen asks if it would be audible, perhaps not, at about 12, the flow of oxygen into the lungs stops. Before noon, 11.30-11.45, in 15-20 minutes the lungs don't have anymore oxygen for the heart, and MJ died with the infusion still going.
 
Infusion was still on when he died, hence why the levels of propofol are so high.
 
This is the only scenario that he could generate, that produced the femoral vein concentration in a way that CM described his usual practice of administering Propofol to MJ by a drip.

CM ordered enough vials to drip 100 ml every nights. The orders suggest 1 vial/night.\

CM left at some point the room, having observed for 1 hours or so and thought that everything is ok while level of propofol was continuing to rise.
 
Popescu said:
From 11 to 11.45, MJ's breathing is getting slower and slower, Shafer is making disturbing choking sounds, Walgreen asks if it would be audible, perhaps not, at about 12, the flow of oxygen into the lungs stops. Before noon, 11.30-11.45, in 15-20 minutes the lungs don't have anymore oxygen for the heart, and MJ died with the infusion still going.
Click to expand...
ll
and there it is....he died with the infusion still in his veins,,,because Murray was such a son of a bitch that he left him there to die ..alone...and he didn't care enough to stay by his side, I dont care what they do or say there is NO defending this,,:boohoo:
 
When does the Propofol infusion end? At noon. What if the infusion was dripping but runs out while MJ's heart is still beating, the levels will fall shortly, not a valid scenario.

Scenario, still alive at noon, infusion stopped, levels fall very quickly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top