Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

Self administration has been ruled out based on level of propofol in fermoral blood. This is not looking good. I'm.no medical expert but it looks like Murray administered a crapload into MJ or for much longer than he claimed.Murray is toast! Drinking it and self administration is now out. It's all on Murray now. Shafer was exceptional here.
 
this basically rules out everything but an IV I guess. and assuming that's why Walgren asked for the break. He would start with the IV scenario.

yes I agree THAT is exactly were walgren is going with this. injections was not the way Michael died. It was Murray's friggen makeshift iv. I am so disgusted. I am glad that they walked the jury through this "self injection" BS,,,Walgren and Shafer are a great team.
 
15 to 80 times of the daily dose of Lorazepam ... why would a doctor do that?

After hearing all this testimony, at this point, I can think of only ONE reason a doctor would do that. Just. . . . one. And, he's going to get away with it! In the U.S., a person can't be tried for the same crime, twice.
 
Now this voice message that he left Wiesner saying that he is scared for his life keeps replaying in my head ... sorry, this really upset me, more than the photos and the recording with the slurred speech.


After hearing all this testimony, at this point, I can think of only ONE reason a doctor would do that. Just. . . . one. And, he's going to get away with it! In the U.S., a person can't be tried for the same crime, twice.

Yes, I know ... it's shocking.
 
:( How can Murray even look in the mirror? Guess money made him foget what it means to be a doctor. To HELP people. To put the person FIRST!!!
 
Now this voice message that he left Wiesner saying that he is scared for his life keeps replaying in my head ... sorry, this really upset me, more than the photos and the recording with the slurred speech.

Yes, I know ... it's shocking.

(check your PM) I have watched all the testimony, from each day. This witness delivered a series of bomb-shells, and did it in a totally orderly and logical way. Not only could Michael not have self-medicated, but this now seems INTENTIONAL. According to the science of it, there could have been no other outcome. Oh. My. God.
 
(check your PM) I have watched all the testimony, from each day. This witness delivered a series of bomb-shells, and did it in a totally orderly and logical way. Not only could Michael not have self-medicated, but this now seems INTENTIONAL. According to the science of it, there could have been no other outcome. Oh. My. God.

Yes, I have watched everything as well, and then I translated a lot of it too, so I know some of the things that were said almost by heart. But this is the most shocking testimony so far.
 
below is from a linda D article. did white say he thinks murrya gave more loraz than hes admitting. that does ring a bell or is his name being mixed up with shaffer. the way its written is confusing

Defense attorneys for Murray said last week they had abandoned the theory that Jackson swallowed propofol. They will begin questioning Shafer later in the day.
Still, the theory was included in a report by their propofol expert, Dr. Paul White, who also suggested that Murray probably gave Jackson more of the sedative lorazepam than he told police.
 
I know nothing about medical stuff, but if they're saying that even after mj stopped breathing his heart continued circulating the propofol and getting rid of it for another 10 mins, the fact that the blood concentrations of prop were so high suggests that prop was still being pumped into mj via an iv after he had died and that's why there was such a high concentration in the blood. Murray obviously didn't notice mj had stopped breathing til many mins later and so never turned off the prop infusion.
 
Let's wait to see what Shafer will say he thinks it happened during afternoon testimony.

And several people and blogs had previously claimed that MJ's death could be as simple as the makeshift IV malfunctioning hence pumping in MJ those unbelievable high amounts.
 
I know nothing about medical stuff, but if they're saying that even after mj stopped breathing his heart continued cirulating the propofol and getting rid of it for another 10 mins, the fact that the blood concentrations of prop were so high suggests that prop was still being pumped into mj via an iv after he had died and that's why there was such a high concentration in the blood. Murray obviously didn't notice mj had stopped breathing til many mins later and so never turned off the prop infusion.

excellent point
 
I think some of us speculated early on that there was a drip that kept going after MJ was gone and MURRAY out of the room.
Looks like maybe that's what happened cause the level of propofol found in the fem blood.

Either he switched the tubing or that SOB drained it and put it in his cargo pants pocket
That would be why it took him so long to start calling 4 help. He was resetting the I.v
v li.es
 
Let's wait to see what Shafer will say he thinks it happened during afternoon testimony.

And several people and blogs had previously claimed that MJ's death could be as simple as the makeshift IV malfunctioning hence pumping in MJ those unbelievable high amounts.

But that would still mean that those vials with those amounts must have been attached to the drip ... the vials didn't walk over to the IV-stand by themselves and attach themselves ...
 
even if he gave 6 injections the level you would get would not be at the level they found in autopsy...so how much did Murray give him?​

He is ruling out the possibility that propofol was given by MJ himself. He is saying even if we assume he self injected not once but as much as 6 times an average dose in the last 180minutes of his life, still the femoral blood would not have reached 2.6ug/ml at the time of death, simply because Jackson had to wake up in order to re inject himself, and in order for him to wake up the propofol levels would have dropped AGAIN.
So no accumulation effect. The most he could have given himself was 100mg , after 15minutes this dose would have vanished and the subsequent one would do the same ...etc

He is not talking about how much MJ received but giving the worst scenarios regarding self injections, eliminating the self injection theory.

When he was talking about Murray he reached the number 100mg. After the break he will give us how much MURRAY had given in order for the femoral blood to be that high.

In the first scenario self injection; propofol would not have been accumulated but in the second which is administration by another it can. So don't hurry to conclusions, it's by now higher than 100mg and we know MJ did not self inject .
 
Does anyone have a streaming link for mobile which works? The one on first page does not work for me. Thanks.
 
shaffer did a test to see how mj could have got to the levels that were found in the femoral blood.looked to see if there was a set pattern. he found one in that murray gave x amount every hour upto midday. that amount added upto to 40mg. an empty vial for 40mg of loraz was found in the bedroom. so theres obviously a connection and that is shaffers theory along with why he thought it was strange that murray gave flumaz when he found mj

Wow! This seems to tie neatly into the "Oh eff" Murray said when the Flumazenil was mentioned with the Lorz.
 
I don't know how the defense is going to counter any of this. Especially since the model is based off of Dr. White's own research. The eating Lopz theory seems shot to hell as well.

I wondered if the defense looked at any of this stuff before they claim Michael self-injected or ate pills. It would seem that they, and some of us, didn't take into account how long Michael's heart would had beat. We all just assumed his heart stopped immediately after he was given the fatal dose. I guess that's why the defense now want it to be a cardiac arrest instead of a respiratory arrest.
 
But that would still mean that those vials with those amounts must have been attached to the drip ... the vials didn't walk over to the IV-stand by themselves and attach themselves ...

Right. There is that. The vials have a limited capacity, and would have had to be exchanged, i.e. added, for those levels to be reached. Plus, it was not only a drastic over-dose of propofol, but ALSO the lorazepam. I do hope we understand the significance of today's testimony?
 
Let's wait to see what Shafer will say he thinks it happened during afternoon testimony.

And several people and blogs had previously claimed that MJ's death could be as simple as the makeshift IV malfunctioning hence pumping in MJ those unbelievable high amounts.

Yes, Ivy, BUT with 40mg of lorazepam as well!!

Yes, I know we knew lorazepam given was higher, but even in the prelim it was expected between 7 and 12, but 40??
 
base on the testimony so far. I think it's highly likable that Murray put MJ on IV drip of propofol and start to do his things, phone calls and text message etc. He didn't realized MJ stop breathing in 2 mins as he claimed. The propofol still going into MJ's body that's why the level is so high. That's why he didn't call 911 at first because he knew MJ won't be saved. That's why he performed CPR in a weird way because I think he just did that for showing to Prince or others. This can explain all his weird behavior because by the time he found out, it already too late.
 
If he had been allowed back into the house to gets the bottle and the hidden bag he prolly would have pretended to have not given the propofol at all and only would have stuck to giving lorazepam only which he tried to do with ems and doctors at the hospital
Fortunately he couldn't get back to the house to make that lie stick.
 
A heart felt 'thank you' to all who are summarizing...you are all totally amazing ( and great typing speeds too! :) )

Question, now that we've heard so much damning testimony, if this knowledge was known to the DA beforehand, how could they only charge 'involuntary' manslaughter. When every expert is saying no competent, etc., doctor would do something like this, when they say that a doctor would have known the risks of catastrophic outcomes...how could they not charge higher than involuntary? At least give the jury a choice to make... I've thought all along that, well, okay, they (the DA) wanted to be pretty sure to win this case and it is hard to prove intent, but oh my, how can one NOT BELIEVE that murray did all this without intent or malice? When he had to know death was a definite risk? If a doctor is going to throw out all standards, all ethics, all sense of obligation to the well being of his/her anesthetized, totally dependent patient, then they are doing that with the full knowledge death might result. And if such a doctor tries to say he was only dong it because he was helping 'his friend', then that doctor should be stripped not only of his license but of his MEDICAL DEGREE so that he can never practice medicine again, anywhere in this world.
Let him clean windows, dig ditches or prostitute his body as he prostituted his medical degree. But make sure he can never again do to anyone else what he did to Michael.

I hope that whatever the outcome of this sad event the medical community will be shamed into doing something to police their own, to discipline their own, to make it crystal clear that if 'one of their own' transgresses egregiously that person will be severely punished in some meaningful and painful way.

*stepping off of soapbox*
 
this may be a silly question...but does anyone know why the judge takes notes?

Someone explained at one point that it is easier for him to review his own notes than the whole transcript. That may be why :)


this basically rules out everything but an IV I guess. and assuming that's why Walgren asked for the break. He would start with the IV scenario.

Yes, I was waiting for this one.
They are going slowly because there is no long tubing with Propofol in it (CM took it). They have to make sure that they explain correctly enough so there will be no reasonable doubt as to what has happened.



There's no way in hell that Michael self injected. But what i dont get is how someone can let another person(so-called doctor) put all that junk into his body.
Also. How can MJ have survived those other 79 nights???

I have also said all along that the surprising thing is not what happened on the 25th, but all those other nights. The disaster was not only foreseeable, but bound to happen. I think that all the doctors were shocked when they heard the "two months" interview.
 
I'm thinking about the IV drip KZ wrote on Trials and Tribulations website. Her idea was that Propofol bottle was spiked, a needle was being used for ventilation so that the propofol would flow (explain the missing needle) and somehow the drip became faster - a malfunction of the makeshift drip. With my limited understanding of medical stuff, Dr. Shafer's testimony and the fact that the heart continues to beat and blood flows for 10 minutes hence the propofol would be metabolized. It seems like only thing to explain high blood levels if Propofol continued to be pumped into Michael after he died. I always believed that when Murray realized that Michael was dead (let's say 11:55 when on call with Sade Anding), he was in a cover up stage before he acted an emergency for the bodyguards and paramedics and so on.

There might be some truth to Murray's statements , that he might be trying to switch to Lorazepam and started the night with it. Also in the interview he mentioned Michael telling him nothing that Klein or Metzger gave to him worked. And we have all those sleep medicine prescribed to Michael by Klein, Metzger and Murray. I'm assuming that those indeed did not work for Michael and / or he had a high threshold level. Therefore Murray gave him more and more Lorazepam to bring him to a level that he would sleep. I think it didn't work and that's why Murray switched to Propofol. again I'm not that bright in regards to these medical stuff but regardless of MJ was given 12 or 40 mg Lorazepam, his blood levels were high therapeutic - which shows us he didn't die from it and he was metabolizing the high dose to acceptable levels (correct? ).
 
I would hope that the reason the Propofol level was scarily high is because, Murray didn't notice Michael not breathing and that his heart had stopped, (due to negligence and lack of equipment) rather then Murray just giving poor Michael an unbelievable and horrifying amount of Propofol. :(

Niether will ever make me forgive him, but the later is so much more difficult to comprehend :cry:
 
Dr Shafer

Walgren

If the 2X2 mg at 2 and 5 was the only amount given to MJ, the concentration the coroner should have found is 0.025, not 0.169

Shows another model , to reach 0.169 at 12 noon. Shows 10 doses of 4 mg between midinght and 5 am. (I'im not too sure of the time range, it was in the early part of the night)

There is no medical rocords, so Dr Shafer doesn't know what was given, has to work with what the coroner found.

Shows a vial 10ml, each ml has 4mg, so thats 40mg lorazepam in a 10ml vial. So 40mg is consitent with the concentration found by the coroner, and consistent with the vials found at Mjs house.

metabolite : produced by the liver, the lorazepam metabolite is calld is lorazepam glucoronide. The liver attaches sugar to the lorazepam molecule , so the kidneys can process the lorazepam. This process makes the drug inactive. Lorazepam glucoronide has no effect. The lorazepam will have an effect, but not its metabolite.

The coroner looks for the levels of lorazepam, not its metabolite

Showing the defense test for lorazepam made by Pacific Toicology. Dr Shafer has reviewed it. He had to go through D Walgren to receive pacific Toxicolgy's procedures, the lab didn't want to give them to Dr Shafer. Their method converted the metabolite back to the drug itself, and after this, analaysed for lorazepam. So their results included both the drug and its metabolite.

So their results was the drug + metabolite. 0.634 concentration.

You would expect the metabolite to show up in the liver, so the 0.634 is a substantially inflated number. There was no breakdown bewteen the drug an the metabolite in Pacific toxicolgy analysis.

Lorazepam was found in the stomach. How is it possible ?

Showing digestive track diagrams again, explains what would happen to an IV injection of lorazepam :
IV injection : active drug goes to the blood, and at some point goes to the liver, the liver converts the active drug to its metabolite, about 25 % of the metabolite goes to the bile, then the bile drains it into the intestine, at the junction between the stomach and small intestine, some of the metabolite sloshes back into the stomach (example : vomit, when some bile goes into the stomach) ; That's how you will find lorazepam metabolite in the stomach.

.047 mg lorazepam = 1/43 of pill was lorzaepam + its metabolite. Most of this is the metabolite, not lorazepam itself. The true amaount of active lorazepam is much smaller than this. This proves that MJ did not swallow lorazepam for at least 4 hours prior to his death. Assuming time of death is 12, MJ did not swallow lorazepam between 8am to 12 noon. So there is no chance that he did that at 10 Dr Shafer would need 5 minutes to calculate if oral consumption was possible prior to 8 am.

0.47 mg is a trivial amount.

Re explains what pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamic is
kinetics : motion
dynmaic : power

Showing studies done about propofol pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. Dr Shafer was principal investigator in this studies. The models in these studies are programmed into infusion pumps worldwide. They are the only models that include, age, weight and gender of the patient.

Propofol acts in the brain. The brain makes you fall asleep or stop breathing. So it's the brain concentration that matters. The actual term is effect site = drug concentration in the brain.
Shows a study using an EEG (electro encephalogram = brain waves) to study the brain during propofol, so he could relate propofol effects on the brain to blood concentration. Dr White participated in the study. The aim is to know at what concentration a person would stop breathing.

At 2.3 mg/ml half of the patients would be expected to stop breathing. The range of apnea is 1.3mg to 3.3mg/ml . At 1.3mg, 5% of patients stop breathing, at 3.3mg 95 % stop breathing.

Another study : what is the delay between apnea and the time when blood circulation stops. The study was done on pigs :the result was 9 mn between respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest.

Dr Shafer did simulations for this case :
for this case , took 10mn between resiratory arrest and cardiac arrest (a human being has more oxygen than a pig ), MJ was on supplemental oxygen, so considers 10mn a safe number.

Propofol concentration found by the coroner in Mjs in femoral blood was 2.6 , that's the concentration when blood circulation stopped.

1st : propofol 25 mg : what would happen if one were given 25mg propofol bolus?

showing model : 2.6 concentration femoral blood. Apnea threshold 2.3 . Level of propofol in femoral blood is close to apnea threshold (femoral blood is slightlu abve)

Concentration rises quickly, and falls very quicly, because of the liver, and propofol goes to other tissues.

Brain concentration : MJ would have been below the point where half of patients would be apneic. But above the one 1.3 limit when 5% perons are apneic, with only propofol. He would have stopped breathing from 1mn to 2 and half minutes after the injection. After 3 mn, you wuold expect everybody to breathe again.

So with a small dose of 25mg , there is a risk, during a short period of time. The risk would be made higher with other benzos. All of the drugs MJ recieved potentially affect breathing, making the risk higher.

Doesn't think that's what happened to MJ : MJ would have benen apneic for 2mn, and his blood circulation wuld have lasted at leat 10Mn, propofol would have been metabolised, did not happen given the femoral concentration. After 10mn, the femoral concentration would have been much smaller than the one the coroner found. He rules out this scenario



2 - 50mg propofol bolus:

MJ would likely have stopped breathing , 1mn to 3or 4mn after the dose. If the period of apnea lasts around 3 mn, Dr Shafer wouldn't expect brain damage. The heart will continue beating for 10mn.

50mg bolus wouldn't give the level that the coroner measured in femoral blood (coroner level was much higher) : rules out a 50 mg single bolus injection.


3 100 mg , bolus injection :

patient will be apneic , Dr Shafer does that every day, it*'s an anesthetic dose. Mj would have stopped brething within 1 mn, heart wuld have stopped 10mn after , blood level would have been under what the coroner found. Rules out this scenario.

Multiple syringe injections scenarios :

- 6 self injections, 50mg each , over 90mn:

self injection would involve drawing propofol, injection through the port , takes time and coordination.
Based on CM, MJ had poor veins, self injection is not likely, and extremely painful without lidocaine. This scenario requires that MJ wakes up after each injection.

50mg would put him to sleep, each injection keeps him asleep for about 10n, each injection would keep him asleep a little longer, since there would still be e little propofol left in the blood.
10m until the circulation stops : the blood concentration level would be well under the femoral blood concentration found by the coroner. Rules out this scenario.

- Self injections, 100mg each, 6 injections, over 3 hours.

Anesthetic dose.
Mj would stop brathing , 10 mns after circulation stops, the blood level would be well below what was measured in femoral blood.

MJ would have probably died after the first or second injection, but coroner would have found a lower femoral level.
 
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