Murray Trial- Day 15 -October 21st

[adrianmonk]

White already told the defense MJ received something between 125 ad 150mg, he had his scentific reasons to back up that statement, right? If the defese has evidence SCIENTIFICAL evidnce that Schafer not only can't refute but would very likely agree with and eventualy be forced to declare his assumptions were wrong , if the sceintifc evidence is strong enough to make Schafer repeats what he already admitted to, that his focus was to create a theory around the empty vials then that would explain Chenoff's behaviour towards Dr.Schafer. He already told him this case is serious and someone's fighting for his life , so he believes he has the evidence to prove Dr.Schafer has been very unprofessional .

&& why are we not taking into account that there are probably multiple ways that the blood levels that were found could have been reached dosage-wise?? Just because Dr. Shafer presented 6 ways that didn't make sense, doesn't mean that there are no other ways that do make sense. I'm sure Dr. White's theory is based off of the same mathematics, remember they are working backwards from concentrations so there are many dosages/timings that can lead to such results. I'm sure it will come down to a) the plausability of Dr. White's theory vs. Dr. Shafer's, and b) if it even matters what dosage was administered when/by who, since Murray put michael in such a dangerous situation to begin with.



Also, how was Dr. Shafer unprofessional at all? He clearly stated that his suggestions were possibilities, not necessarily what happened.

 

[Justthefacts]

And due to the fact that they have already caught Murray in several lies like he had four practices he did not have a watch and Michael made his employees use the gas station it is not a stretch to say he took the IV tubing out.

 

[adrianmonk]

As Sheffer pointed out, the length isn't all that important. All IVs sets works the same way. If it didn't, why would Sheffer see it as a red flag that Murray turned off the saline bag if some IV sets doesn't have that feature. He also went from Murray's own order list which had the IV he most likely used, which had the same stop feature. So, how did they score points about the IV other than pointed out that Murray could had easily walked off with it and threw it in the trash? Even with a short tubing most of the propofol would had been stop before reaching Michael, therefore no rapid infusion could had happened.

Also, if Murray did use one big injection, why are they fighting tooth and nail over if an infusion was use? You saw how badly they want to discredit the AA, can't spell his name, and how they went out of their way to say that bottle wasn't in the slice saline bag. Not to mention how they fought with one expert over if a infusion was used or not. It sounds really strange to fight so hard over something that didn't happen at all.

plus, how was murray giving the drip every other night? are they forgetting that that's what he admitted to doing in his interview? so even if that particular bottle wasn't used on the 25th, it was most certainly used another night, as a drip?? wouldn't the tubing still be missing...? it's not like he would throw that kind of tubing away...

i am so confused as to where they are headed with this

 

[Ramona122003]

&& why are we not taking into account that there are probably multiple ways that the blood levels that were found could have been reached dosage-wise?? Just because Dr. Shafer presented 6 ways that didn't make sense, doesn't mean that there are no other ways that do make sense. I'm sure Dr. White's theory is based off of the same mathematics, remember they are working backwards from concentrations so there are many dosages/timings that can lead to such results. I'm sure it will come down to a) the plausability of Dr. White's theory vs. Dr. Shafer's, and b) if it even matters what dosage was administered when/by who, since Murray put michael in such a dangerous situation to begin with.



Also, how was Dr. Shafer unprofessional at all? He clearly stated that his suggestions were possibilities, not necessarily what happened.

I would also want to add that all the ways have to be self-injected if the defense has a case. They have to show that it is scientifically possible for Michael to self-inject himself and get to his high blood level. Sheffer already showed that even if Michael took a needled, filled it with 100ml, and injected himself, the propofol still wouldn't be at his blood levels at death. If he died immediately, his blood concentrations would had been higher. If his blood continued to beat, it would be a great deal lower. He even showed what would happened even if Michael self-injected himself multiple times.

Also, he did say that if Murray gave him rapid injects over a period time that could equal to the blood levels at death. But Sheffer said that would be so stupid that not even he could imagine Murray doing something like that. So, he went with what most likely happened based on his expertise.

 

[Ramona122003]

plus, how was murray giving the drip every other night? are they forgetting that that's what he admitted to doing in his interview? so even if that particular bottle wasn't used on the 25th, it was most certainly used another night, as a drip?? wouldn't the tubing still be missing...? it's not like he would throw that kind of tubing away...

i am so confused as to where they are headed with this

That's a great point. Thank you for pointed that out.

The defense is making it a point that there was no tubing with propofol found at the house, but he had to have this tubing because how was he infusing propofol on those other nights? I doubt he just decided to throw the IV away on the 23rd or 24th. So the question is, what happened to that IV? He was cleaning up the scene of drug and hid the bottle with the propofol in the saline bag.

Another thing, why would he have a empty bottle of propofol hanging from a IV pole for two days if he didn't give propofol on the 24 and only an injection on the 25? It really makes no sense.

 

[Soundmind]

you do know that propofol's action is primarily ended by redistribuion to lean tissue & adipose tissue right?? and then excreted slowly?? just like almost all IV anesthetics... it is most certainly not confined to the blood, liver, and urine as you are claiming here. so that's where the "rest" of the 1000 mg that was not accounted for in the urine in the bottle, urine in the bladder, and blood went. jeez. do you have any information showing it is "SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE"?

"The pharmacokinetics of propofol has been described by two-compartment and three-compartment models (Table 26-1). After a single bolus injection, whole-blood propofol levels decrease rapidly as a result of redistribution and elimination (Fig. 26-2). The initial distribution half-life of propofol is 2 to 8 minutes.[SUP][4,13][/SUP] Studies in which the disposition of propofol is described by a three-compartment model give initial and slow distribution half-lives of 1 to 8 minutes and 30 to 70 minutes and an elimination half-life of 4 to 23.5 hours.[SUP][14,15][/SUP] This longer elimination half-life indicates a deep compartment with limited perfusion, which results in a slow return of propofol back to the central compartment. Because of the rapid clearance of propofol from the central compartment, the slow return of propofol from this deep compartment contributes little to the initial rapid decrease in propofol concentrations. The context-sensitive half-time for propofol (Fig. 26-3) for infusions of up to 8 hours is less than 40 minutes.[SUP][16][/SUP]"

Translation: the "deep compartment with limted perfusion" = lean muscle & fat

source: Miller's Anesthesia, 7th edition (accessed online through my school's library)

edit: sorry if this sounds "argumentative", but as a medical student it really bothers me when seemingly baseless (w/o sources) medical opinions are stated as facts

Dr.White is saying that , so you have to wait to hear his opinion on the subject ,or Dr.White is not qualified to make such a statement?

As for the medical evidence , I already posted a German study on propofol. Four cases of deaths caused by propofil three of them abused propfol in the hours preceding their lives , one committed suicide . The three who abused it before death had very high concentrations of propofol in their urine, the one who committed suicide had none.

 

[adrianmonk]

I would also want to add that all the ways have to be self-injected if the defense has a case. They have to show that it is scientifically possible for Michael to self-inject himself and get to his high blood level. Sheffer already showed that even if Michael took a needled, filled it with 100ml, and injected himself, the propofol still wouldn't be at his blood levels at death. If he died immediately, his blood concentrations would had been higher. If his blood continued to beat, it would be a great deal lower. He even showed what would happened even if Michael self-injected himself multiple times.

Also, he did say that if Murray gave him rapid injects over a period time that could equal to the blood levels at death. But Sheffer said that would be so stupid that not even he could imagine Murray doing something like that. So, he went with what most likely happened based on his expertise.

i was concerned today when walgren came up with the suggestion that michael awoke from "sleep" and moved the roller clamp down, thus giving himself a continuous infusion while murray was off chatting with his women for who knows how long, which would have kept dripping after apnea since murray was not present. this is technically a "self-administration", and the first time this particular theory was brought up (perhaps in reference to murray's statement of mj grabbing at the iv upon awakening??). Dr. Shafer was very clear that it was still Murray's fault if this happened.

I am very interested yet scared to hear what Dr. White has to say. I still can't comprehend what any physician is doing supporting Murray though, unless it is purely academic in regards to the pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics of propofol, as everything else Murray did as a "doctor" was so far gone from acceptable

 

[Justthefacts]

Dr White is qualified to make statements and Dr Shaffer is not?

 

[Justthefacts]

i was concerned today when walgren came up with the suggestion that michael awoke from "sleep" and moved the roller clamp down, thus giving himself a continuous infusion while murray was off chatting with his women for who knows how long, which would have kept dripping after apnea since murray was not present. this is technically a "self-administration", and the first time this particular theory was brought up (perhaps in reference to murray's statement of mj grabbing at the iv upon awakening??). Dr. Shafer was very clear that it was still Murray's fault if this happened.

I am very interested yet scared to hear what Dr. White has to say. I still can't comprehend what any physician is doing supporting Murray though, unless it is purely academic in regards to the pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics of propofol, as everything else Murray did as a "doctor" was so far gone from acceptable

But if Michael would have woken up he like the doctor said his levels would have not been that high

 

[adrianmonk]

Dr.White is saying that , so you have to wait to hear his opinion on the subject ,or Dr.White is not qualified to make such a statement?

As for the medical evidence , I already posted a German study on propofol. Four cases of deaths caused by propofil three of them abused propfol in the hours preceding their lives , one committed suicide . The three who abused it before death had very high concentrations of propofol in their urine, the one who committed suicide had none.

can you please link the study again? i can't find it also, could you explain the relevance of this study to this case, or show me where you have previously posted, sorry i just can't find it somehow

 

[Soundmind]

&& why are we not taking into account that there are probably multiple ways that the blood levels that were found could have been reached dosage-wise?? Just because Dr. Shafer presented 6 ways that didn't make sense, doesn't mean that there are no other ways that do make sense. I'm sure Dr. White's theory is based off of the same mathematics, remember they are working backwards from concentrations so there are many dosages/timings that can lead to such results. I'm sure it will come down to a) the plausability of Dr. White's theory vs. Dr. Shafer's, and b) if it even matters what dosage was administered when/by who, since Murray put michael in such a dangerous situation to begin with.



Also, how was Dr. Shafer unprofessional at all? He clearly stated that his suggestions were possibilities, not necessarily what happened.

http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf

Dr.Schafer ruled out the possibility that self injection or let's say bolus injection given by MJ or Murray on the assumption that a bolus injection would not cause the femerol blood to be that high because he was so certain MJ must have survived at least 10 minutes after his breathing stopped.

Read this study carefully and tell me whether the findings r consistent with what Dr.Schafer said or not .

We r not only talking about the possibilities of other doses but on his method of ruling out the self injection theory.

 

[Justthefacts]

So this is about something you read is different from what Dr Shaffer said? So for that reason Shaffer is wrong?

 

[Ramona122003]

Dr.White is saying that , so you have to wait to hear his opinion on the subject ,or Dr.White is not qualified to make such a statement?

As for the medical evidence , I already posted a German study on propofol. Four cases of deaths caused by propofil three of them abused propfol in the hours preceding their lives , one committed suicide . The three who abused it before death had very high concentrations of propofol in their urine, the one who committed suicide had none.

Sound, I think I finally found the problem in your theory.

Two witnesses, Anderson and Rogers, clearly said that what's in the urine had nothing to do with the person's death. It's only the blood concentrations that their concern with. Drugs found in the urine could had been there for days, even weeks. Since you said yourself that these people abused propofol, it would make sense that they had a high urine concentrations because they abused it daily. What was or wasn't in Michael's bladder isn't relevant to this case since it only shows a drug history, like a hair sample.

As for your research about the two people who self-injected propofol, but had higher blood levels than Michael, it actually makes sense if you think about. Chance are from continuing propofol abused and OD themselves they had a cardiac arrest, which stopped their blood from pumping. Shefeer's model clearly showed that if Michael had died immediately the propofol levels in his blood should had been much higher.



Also adrianmonk, yes if Michael touched the rolling clamp and the propofol poured into him then it would be self-administration. The lawyers from InSession even pointed out this could of happened if there was an infusion.

The thing is, the defense is fighting tooth and nail to prove that there was no infusion and Murray only gave one injection. Which is why they're going out of their way to say that bottle wasn't in the bag hanging on the IV pole. They desperately don't want anyone to think any kind of infusion happened on the 25. So, they can't blame Michael over something they claim Murray didn't do. Unless they're going to say that Michael set up his own infusion while Murray was away and did it wrong. Which I guess is possible, but highly unlikely.

The lawyers on InSession even said it would had been easier to blame Michael if there was an infusion and Michael rolled his own clamp. Although, that would bring up the question on how Michael was even conscious to roll the clamp to begin with.

 

[Soundmind]

Dr White is qualified to make statements and Dr Shaffer is not?

of course he is, so let's wait for the cross to finish to see how he will explain his decision . He made it known so far that because the vial was there he assumed it was used that night and came up with that theory . His method as I said previoulsy contradicts pervious findings maybe he has an explanation for that , maybe he ignored some figures , we don't know.
Let's admit no one thought the coroner was searching for lorazepam using his EYES. So we don't know whether something escaped doctor schafer while he was doing his theory .

But regardless of that night, Murray did admit what doctor Schafer presented to the jurors yesterday was what taking place everyday for 80 days . So in the worst scenario for the prosecution ( their theory being refuted) they will still be able to say that demonstartion was based on what Murray told them he was doing and the jurors needed to see the amount of risk MJ was being exposed to under Murray's care. So it's a win/win situation.

 

[Justthefacts]

Let's admit no one thought the coroner was searching for lorazepam using his EYES.


There is a jelly substance in the eyes every person who gets tox done gets fluid drawn from there eyes. This was not something they did just for Michael.

 

[Soundmind]

There is a jelly substance in the eyes every person who gets tox done gets fluid drawn from there eyes. This was not something they did just for Michael

.

that's not what I meant
Dr.Rogers when asked what method did he use to search for lorazepam in MJ's stomach , he said I used my eyes , i searched for pills did not SEE any so I assumed he did not take it orally. Ivy said we have to understand protocols , but at least speaking about myself, I expected that was the first thing they would do .

Sound, I think I finally found the problem in your theory.

Two witnesses, Anderson and Rogers, clearly said that what's in the urine had nothing to do with the person's death. It's only the blood concentrations that their concern with. Drugs found in the urine could had been there for days, even weeks. Since you said yourself that these people abused propofol, it would make sense that they had a high urine concentrations because they abused it daily. What was or wasn't in Michael's bladder isn't relevant to this case since it only shows a drug history, like a hair sample.

forget my theory. The evidence is presented to the jurors and we r now trying to understand what really happened to MJ. As for propofol Anderson did not want to talk about it nor Dr.Rogers , so Schafer and White r the most qualified to speak on this subject, we will hear their opinion both I'm sure on the significance if any of urine concentration .

we know Schafer said 1000mg he listed his reasons , he is under cross will he change it or not we will figure out on Monday.
White said 125- 150mg the same we will have to hear his opinion.

 

[Ramona122003]

of course he is, so let's wait for the cross to finish to see how he will explain his decision . He made it known so far that because the vial was there he assumed it was used that night and came up with that theory . His method as I said previoulsy contradicts pervious findings maybe he has an explanation for that , maybe he ignored some figures , we don't know.
Let's admit no one thought the coroner was searching for lorazepam using his EYES. So we don't know whether something escaped doctor schafer while he was doing his theory .

But regardless of that night, Murray did admit what doctor Schafer presented to the jurors yesterday was what taking place everyday for 80 days . So in the worst scenario for the prosecution ( their theory being refuted) they will still be able to say that demonstartion was based on what Murray told them he was doing and the jurors needed to see the amount of risk MJ was being exposed to under Murray's care. So it's a win/win situation.

The thing the defense failed to mention and I hope the DA brings it up on cross, that allot of those propofol bottles were opened and half used. Sheffer said that propofol should be used within six hours before bacteria starts going on it. If Murray had no intention of using propofol at all the night of the 25, why was there so many vials and syringes found with the drug? It makes little sense.

Also, that propofol bottle hanging from the saline bag was opened and empty. What happened to the rest and why was it even there if Murray didn't use propofol that night and only drew 25ml from a bottle. Seems quite wasteful, unless he just left it there hanging for days along with the other bottles found on the floor.

 

[adrianmonk]

http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf

Dr.Schafer ruled out the possibility that self injection or let's say bolus injection given by MJ or Murray on the assumption that a bolus injection would not cause the femerol blood to be that high because he was so certain MJ must have survived at least 10 minutes after his breathing stopped.

Read this study carefully and tell me whether the findings r consistent with what Dr.Schafer said or not .

We r not only talking about the possibilities of other doses but on his method of ruling out the self injection theory.

please enlighten me as to how this disproves what Dr. Shafer said, as I am apparently not seeing it... the article says that death occured due to apnea, but then doesn't account for any metabolism after the decedent stopped breathing, right? it says the decedent died "immediately post-injection", but does not give a reason as to how death occurred so quickly when the cause of death was apnea/bp dropping

if you know the answers please elaborate, as there are many questions unanswered by this case report (the lowest type of article on the totem pole for scientific evidence, btw). was this published or presented at a conference or what? i can't find it on any other sites...

edit: just now seeing the dose in this case was presumed to be 2.5 mg/kg in a 91 kg adult, so 230 mg = 23 mL??? :blink: not possible for michael to administer that much in a 10 mL syringe...

 

[adrianmonk]

oooops nvm

 

[adrianmonk]

But regardless of that night, Murray did admit what doctor Schafer presented to the jurors yesterday was what taking place everyday for 80 days . So in the worst scenario for the prosecution ( their theory being refuted) they will still be able to say that demonstartion was based on what Murray told them he was doing and the jurors needed to see the amount of risk MJ was being exposed to under Murray's care. So it's a win/win situation.

yes, true... so easy to lose sight of these things! let's hope walgren emphasizes this on redirect as that point wasn't explicitly made yet.

i really hope walgren addresses all the answers chernoff did not allow Dr. Shafer to give (except for yes/no) today, as there was so much relevant explaination the jerk wasn't letting him explain to mislead the jurors it seemed.

 

[Ramona122003]

.

that's not what I meant
Dr.Rogers when asked what method did he use to search for lorazepam in MJ's stomach , he said I used my eyes , i searched for pills did not SEE any so I assumed he did not take it orally. Ivy said we have to understand protocols , but at least speaking about myself, I expected that was the first thing they would do .



forget my theory. The evidence is presented to the jurors and we r now trying to understand what really happened to MJ. As for propofol Anderson did not want to talk about it nor Dr.Rogers , so Schafer and White r the most qualified to speak on this subject, we will hear their opinion both I'm sure on the significance if any of urine concentration .

we know Schafer said 1000mg he listed his reasons , he is under cross will he change it or not we will figure out on Monday.
White said 125- 150mg the same we will have to hear his opinion.

Roger and Anderson wasn't talking about propofol, true. They were talking about lopz and the defense was asking why lopz wasn't tested in the urine. They clearly said the reason why the urine isn't really that important is because it's a drug history. It doesn't say what amount actually killed the person, only that this person was exposed to a drug with the last couple of days or weeks. So, the concentration in the urine isn't really that important in Michael's case because we're talking about a cause of death and not his drug history.

Also, I don't think the amount of the self-injection would matter. Michael's heart was still beating in death so even a bigger amount wouldn't equal to his drug levels. The propofol goes to quickly. You saw how the propofol went down to almost none existence levels with 100mg. That's also a full syringe with no licicane(sp) to stop the burning.

 

[Soundmind]

please enlighten me as to how this disproves what Dr. Shafer said, as I am apparently not seeing it... the article says that death occured due to apnea, but then doesn't account for any metabolism after the decedent stopped breathing, right? it says the decedent died "immediately post-injection", but does not give a reason as to how death occurred so quickly when the cause of death was apnea/bp dropping

if you know the answers please elaborate, as there are many questions unanswered by this case report (the lowest type of article on the totem pole for scientific evidence, btw). was this published or presented at a conference or what? i can't find it on any other sites...

oooops nvm​

Did u find your answer?

Ignore everything but focus on this please:

A man injected an average dose of 2m/kg using a syringe THERE WAS NO IV DRIP AT THE SCENE , he died , his femoral blood was 5.1 ug/ml , actually similar to what doctor Schafer said yesterday they stated in their study that 1 ug/ml was accumulated in the blood from previous dosage and should be dismissed when determining the toxicity of the last injection ,so the actual femoral blood concentration resulted from the last dose was 4.1 ug/ml HIGHER THAN THE ONE FOUND IN MJ .

Doctor Schafer said anyone if given an average induction dose would survive ten minutes at least, thus propofol concentrations in his/her femoral blood would drop significantly before his/her heart stops. And the only explanation he found for propofol concentration to remain high was the assumption he was hooked to an IV drip before and after his death.

Forget the analysis offered in the study, just by looking at the concentration figures, the lack of IV drip at the scene, based on what Dr.Schafer said yesterday how come the male nurse had that high femoral blood concentration?

edit: just now seeing the dose in this case was presumed to be 2.5 mg/kg in a 91 kg adult, so 230 mg = 23 mL???

not possible for michael to administer that much in a 10 mL syringe...

he was injecting almost 20ml each time BASED ON HIS WEIGHT an average dose.

 

[Ramona122003]

did u find your answer ?

Ignore everything but focus on this please:

A man injected an average dose of 2m/kg using a syringe THERE WAS NO IV DRIP AT THE SCENE , he died , his femoral blood was 5.1 ug/ml , actually similar to what doctor schafer said yesterday they stated in their study that 1 ug/ml was accumulated in the blood from previous dosage and should be dismissed when determining the toxicity of the last injection ,so the actual blood concentration resulted from the last dose was 4.1 ug/ml HIGHER THAN THE ONE FOUND IN MJ .

Doctor schafer said anyone if given an average induction dose would survived ten minutes at least , thus propool concentrations in his/her femoral blood would drop significantly before his/her heart stops . And the only explanation he found for propofol concentration to remain high was the assumption he was hooked to an IV drip before and after his death.

Forget the analysis offered in the study ,just by looking at the concentration figures , the lack of IV drip at the scene , based on what Dr.Schafer said yesterday how come the male nurse had that high femoral blood concentration?

It's possible he died from a cardiac arrest and therefore the levels didn't have a chance to drop. If Michael had died from a cardiac arrest, as Murray suggested later on, his propofol levels would had been even higher in death. Which was Sheffer's point.

So, Sheffer's results makes perfect sense and it doesn't contradicts this study.

 

[adrianmonk]

Did u find your answer?

Ignore everything but focus on this please:

A man injected an average dose of 2m/kg using a syringe THERE WAS NO IV DRIP AT THE SCENE , he died , his femoral blood was 5.1 ug/ml , actually similar to what doctor Schafer said yesterday they stated in their study that 1 ug/ml was accumulated in the blood from previous dosage and should be dismissed when determining the toxicity of the last injection ,so the actual femoral blood concentration resulted from the last dose was 4.1 ug/ml HIGHER THAN THE ONE FOUND IN MJ .

Doctor Schafer said anyone if given an average induction dose would survive ten minutes at least, thus propofol concentrations in his/her femoral blood would drop significantly before his/her heart stops. And the only explanation he found for propofol concentration to remain high was the assumption he was hooked to an IV drip before and after his death.

Forget the analysis offered in the study, just by looking at the concentration figures, the lack of IV drip at the scene, based on what Dr.Schafer said yesterday how come the male nurse had that high femoral blood concentration?

i didn't find my answer the nvm was a wrong post in reply to something else, sorry.



in the case here they said he administered 2.5 mg/kg, which = 230 mg right? is that really applicable in this case?

 

[bouee]

i really hope walgren addresses all the answers chernoff did not allow Dr. Shafer to give (except for yes/no) today, as there was so much relevant explaination the jerk wasn't letting him explain to mislead the jurors it seemed.

Yes Chernoff was definitely trying to do that. And it worked, he was sometimes very confusing

 

[elusive moonwalker]

The defence are desperate to say that mj died instantly etc even to the point of impeaching their own client who said there was a pulse. so they can then say mj self injected and have an excuse for the high blood levels

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Yes Chernoff was definitely trying to do that. And it worked, he was sometimes very confusing

the problem for chernoff is that he tries to confuse so much that the cross goes right over your head when you are watching. you switch off because he doesnt make clear points. or very few.its very difficult to take in what hes saying

 

[roomdownstairs]

the problem for chernoff is that he tries to confuse so much that the cross goes right over your head when you are watching. you switch off because he doesnt make clear points. or very few.its very difficult to take in what hes saying

I was relaying testimony on twitter as it happened and I was still switching off while typing. The constant need to object to him meant there was so many interruptions, and Judge Pastor having to intervene so often near the end, that I was fast getting confused despite taking it down as I heard it. Chernoff certainly is expert in the art of deliberate confusion.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

How can the defense say that Michael self-injected if there was no IV drip used and, if I remember correctly, his fingerprints were not on any of the syringes? In my opinion, something about this is not adding up. Seriously, if they were going to say that Michael caused his own death, they should be able to establish that there was proof he handled at least some of the medical equipment (for example: syringes, needles, propofol bottles, IV stand IV tubing, IV bags), found in the room after he died. If they did not find any of his fingerprints on any of that stuff or any other equipment that he would have had to use, then why are they going so hard with the self administration theory? Something else I'm wondering about is didn't Murray say that he gave Michael benzodiazapines that day also? And wouldn't lorazopam and Midazaolam and all the other drugs found in Michael's system be in that category? And since the coroner ruled that the propofol was the thing that ultimately took Michael out, it brings me back to my original question. This is confusing to me.

 

[Vici]

Im watching TMZ Live now


They are talking about why June 25th was so different from all other nights? They think it was the other drugs (Loraz, Midazaolam etc that maybe killed Michael)


and according to them, here is the problem because the coronoer said PROPOFOL killed him and as soon as the jury starts speculating of maybe it was the other drugs that killed him then there are reasonable doubt