Murray Trial- Day 15 -October 21st

[marebear]

How did Shafer do overall?

 

[bouee]

Hi everyoby,

I have taken notes of the full, day, but Chernoff was sometimes too fast me (I miss flanagan...and his loong questions), I'm going through them and will post them in 15 20 mn

edit : I'm sorry about the delay ...

 

[twinklEE]

The legal analyst said Dr. Shafer did a job on the defense yesterday so since Chernoff can't attack the science he's attacking the person.

Gonna quote what someone else wrote on another board.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

shaffer was good but i think chernoff gained a few points in the later stages of the days hearing shaffer seemed abit off compaired to at the begining.chernoff gained by saying shaffer made alot of assumptions about how he came up with his theories as i said the above post re the loraz timeings when mj wasnt even at home.

 

[volitional]

did chernoff say thats it as in no further questions? back to redirect? that wasnt very clear

I believe he meant that's it for today, I don't think he's finished.

 

[suzynyc]

Darn, just when I sit down in front of the computer with my protein shake they wrap up. :angry:

 

[smoothlugar]

. he thinks that Shefer has a grudge against Murray.

In my opinion, not against Murray, but against White, testifying for the defense.

 

[ivy]

Hi everyoby,

I have taken notes of the full, day, but Chernoff was sometimes too fast me (I miss flanagan...and his loong questions), I'm going through them and will post them in 15 20 mn

edit : I'm sorry about the delay ...

I'm looking forward to it. I gave up after 20 minutes of chernoff

 

[volitional]

Not against Murray, but against White, testifying for the defense. And he had previously admitted he did not like another expert for the other part in a past trial. (That was not too good...)

If he had a grudge against Murray he wouldn't have produced a graph for white that Dr White asked him to do a couple of days ago....I think all these points will get cleared up on re-direct.

 

[twinklEE]

no he ain't done with cross yet gonna continue on monday. but elusive ur right with shafer, he did seem kind of off/tired/confused at the end and chernoff was able to gain few points especially regarding the lorazepam timings, but I'm hoping Walgren is able to fix things back on redirect

 

[Ramona122003]

shaffer was good but i think chernoff gained a few points in the later stages of the days hearing shaffer seemed abit off compaired to at the begining.chernoff gained by saying shaffer made alot of assumptions about how he came up with his theories as i said the above post re the loraz timeings when mj wasnt even at home.

The thing is that Shefer offer to recount the chart for him and see what the readings said. Chernoff quickly backed up and even made fun of him for even suggesting he should make such a chart. Even if the time is off, Shefer reaffirmed that Michael couldn't had taken pills within a 4 hour time span. Since Murray, but his own account, was in the room watching Michael at the time, where did the extra Lopz come from. Chernoff didn't really offer an alt and instead mocked Shefer.

And in fairness, Shefer said he had to make assumption because Murray was kind enough not to take charts. Shefer had to guess at almost everything and to me, it reaffirmed to the jury how stupid Murray was, especially since we still only have his word about how such a hight amount of lopz got there.

 

[marebear]

They have re-direct too right?

 

[SimplyMagic]

You use facts to discredit someone not personal insults

You're right, but apparently Chernoff doesn't think so. Flannagan was supposed to do the cross-examination and Chernoff decided to do it himself. Maybe he thought it was a good strategy?

 

[Autumn II]

shaffer was good but i think chernoff gained a few points in the later stages of the days hearing shaffer seemed abit off compaired to at the begining.chernoff gained by saying shaffer made alot of assumptions about how he came up with his theories as i said the above post re the loraz timeings when mj wasnt even at home.

If they meant oral lorazepam, nothing stopping a person from taking a pill when NOT at home? Or anywhere?

 

[classic]

. . . then u come into court and shove it down dr whites throat!!! objection substained.

u knew before u testifyed that white would say mj couldnt have drunk it?. no i didnt know that and dont know what dr white will say when he testifys

What was the significance of this, if any? What was Chernoff trying to prove?

 

[Popescu]

the concentration in the brain. i dont find a measurement for brain concentration in the coroners report.

I didn't follow most of the cross. There is no mention of brain concentration in the autopsy report, was it mentioned during cross? Or was it used in doctor Shafer's models? If so, they must have the results - which were delayed (remember that is the reason why the funeral was delayed).

 

[smoothlugar]

he wouldn't have produced a graph for white that Dr White asked him to do a couple of days ago....I think all these points will get cleared up on re-direct.

My impression was that Chernoff wanted to present the witness as such, not that he has any problem with Dr. White.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

If they meant oral lorazepam, nothing stopping a person from taking a pill when NOT at home? Or anywhere?

i ment the IV injection theory shaffer created on his graph about giving injections every thirty mins. the graph started with th first injection at midnight..chernoff said the first three injections happened when mj was not even at home. so its no good as a theory

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I didn't follow most of the cross. There is no mention of brain concentration in the autopsy report, was it mentioned during cross? Or was it used in doctor Shafer's models? If so, they must have the results - which were delayed (remember that is the reason why the funeral was delayed).

shaffer said the brain concentrations are more important than the blood (think he said that) so chernoff asks what was the level in the brain. shaffer checks the coroners report and says there were no findings about it. then court ended with no more questions

 

[bouee]

sorry again for the delay .. 1st part

Dr Shafer

Walgren


stipulation : tap handle = plastic handle at the side of the bottle that can be used as a handle

Dr Shafer has reviewed the coroner's toxicology report , has confimed this is the pure drug , as opposed to any metobolite. Dr Shafer sas reviewed their procedures , their results do not iclude the metabolites for propofol and lorazepam.

Dr Shafer confirms the real slit bag and bottle can be used as demonstrated

Dr Shafer made a spreadsheet software available to the defense so they culd do their own models.

At time of death, wether eyes are open or close doesn't mean anything about slow death o quick death.

It's possible that MJ moved the infusion line, and changed the speed of the infusion. CM wuld still be responsible because CM left the room and set up a very dangerous IV set up.

Cross by Chernoff :

pharmacokinetics : deals with the movemet of drugs.

There are several ways of getting a drug into the body : IV, IM, oral, through the skin, anal, inhalation, missed one, sorry.

Number of doses given matter to calculate the concentration
.
ususallu dr Shafer's work is to determine the concentration from the dose, usually he knows the dose given.

Dr Shafer has created a computer programmes to do this calculation. Because people are different, the models provide ranges, to alow for this differences.

Data is based on human people that are studied, people vary : example : Chernoff says if I take a 2mg loarzepam pill, i might fall asleep an you migt be awake = Dr Shafer says yes, people vary , but not that mutch

The mean represent half of the people response (to a particuar drug). Median would be a more representative term.

In this case dr Shafer had to do something different : he only had the concentration to calculate the dose. There is no computar programme that could possibly do this. Dr shafer agrees

You explained the method (IV set up demonstrated yesterday ), and you said you had never seen this done before.

Is what you think happened ? Yes . Is it a bold statement ? No, it's an honest statement

Chernoff : there was only one IV line at the scene.

Why did you bring that IV line : Dr Shafer contacted Sea coast, but Sea coast was unable to ship it quick enough, so Dr shafer took it from Columbia. The one Cm bought was another one, it was an Excel 00774.

Chernoff has the sea coast excel 00774, asks Dr Shafer if he was aware that the prosecution had one. Dr Shafer says he was ot aware of that, Chernoff brings it to Dr Shafer.

The line Chernoff brought is dirty, dr Shafer asks what the brown stuff is, chernoff says it's milk, and the brown substance is not blood

Chernof brings Dr Shafer the tubing he used yesterday

Chernoff : You said that it was impossible to use the line without the saline. Dr Shafer says the excel set could not be used because it was not vented. Without a vented line, you can not infuse the bottle.

Chernoff asks why he assumed CM had used that type of line : Dr Shafer reads the Saecost report : 25h march CM orders safesite lines , his credit card is declined . April 13th : CM asks for it to delivered to a California home. Sea coast refuses. Dr shafer says that it suggested to him that CM intenteded to use it. CM had oredered these in 2007, 2008. He ordrerd them frequently , 4 times over 3 years. (2007, 2008?2009)

did he use it in MJs room : yes, CM needed a vented set , and because of the tear in the bottle. There was no trace of needle in the propofol bottle in the bg. If there was a needle hole, he could have used another type of tubing, but on this particular bottle, that day, there was a tear, not a needle hole.

Chernoff : or there was no tubing at all. Dr Shafer : how would you draw the propofol ?

Chernoff t's your opinion (emphasises the word opinion) ? (discussion about the word opinion) Dr Shafer : Yes it's my opinion, for example it's my opinion that one should not lie to Ucla doctors.

Chernoff : what you stated was the actual setup used on MJ, or your opinion ? Did Mr walgren ask you to do that demonstration ? Dr Dhafer : Mr Walgren didn't ask me to do that, I just did that demonstration . It is my opinion that's what happened

Chernoff would you be surprised if other experts had a different opinion ? ,Objection, sustained

Dr Shafer : CM requuested this IV, and asked it to be sent to califorrnia

Chernoff : is there Anyhting else that shows it was at Mjs house ? Dr Shafer says it's the only vented set that he saw. Referred to that particular bottle , because of the tear. CM needed a vented set.

Chernoff : Police didn't find that vented line, but they found a lot of other stuff, but not that IV line. Dr Shafer : It's not evidence that it was not there, it's easy to hide, vials are bulky, needles can hurt.they are less easy to hide.

Chernoff : CM said he gave 25 mg = 2.5 cc , in a 10cc syringe. You used a 20 CC syringe : Dr Shafer : yes , I thought the size of the syringe was irrelevant.

Cm did say 2.5 cc propofol, CM said one to one, so Ss asumed it was 2.5 + 2.5

Chernoff : CM said he pushed the syringe into the y connector.

Chernoff : you used a different line, and a diffrent syringe. Port of the line CM used was actually substantially closer (to the spike I think). Dr Shafer agrees to this.

Chernoff : you used a diffrent propofol bottle. It's thinner and taller; the propofol you put in the bag had some propofol out of it, Dr shafer estimates 6 or 7 Ccs were out of the bottle.

Dr shafer used pictures to estimate the tear of the bag. He paid 150$ to buy 3 bags and have them shipped overnight. He had never seen that, it picked his curiosity.

How do you know CM did it this way ? : Dr Shafer because the slit bag was at he scene Chernoff : «*that's what I thougt*» (sarcastic)

Dr Shafer was contacted on march 31st by the prosecution, who told him dr White had made a report, the prosecution sent Dr Shafer CM statements, staff statements, paramedics records, medical records, Alberto Alvarez' statement. Walgren did not say to Dr shafer AA's testimony was interesting. Dr Shafer read dr Larson report, doesn't know if it was sent to him before his report or not. Dr Shafer says he did not rely on it to form his opinion.

Chernoff : when D Walgren called you, the case set for trial in may ? yes

Chernoff asks questions about Dr Shafer's report : Looking at page 14 : 3rd paragraph, to understand what «*might*»(emphasis on might) have happened . Dr Shafer : AA statemet «*I saw a propofol in the bag*». AA made a very intersing reference a blue bottle, milky substance . Dr Shafer has never met AA, not listened to the recording of his statement to the police, has read a report, is not sure if it was the transcript.

Chernoff brings AA statement. It looks familiar to Dr Shafer, that's what he saw. He has not read anything else, doesn't recall if there was another one.

Chernoff : You based it on the assumption that AA was telling the truth.

Chernoff : you said that u had never seen that before : yes

Chernoff : the bottle (peoples 30 the one in the bag) had a hanging tab, that was not used. Dr Shafer knows that they stipulated to that, but doesn't know if it was used .

Chernoff ; you showed that CM didn't use the tab, you testified that what you thought happen. Dr Shafer : that's irrelevant, wether the bottle was in the bag or hung on the pole would't have changed anything.

Chernoff : CM would have gone through all steps : cut the bag, put bottle in , do you find that reasonable ? Yes.

Chernoff : what you claimed is axtroardinary : Dr Shafer not at all.

Sidebar

Cernoff : do you understand this is a criminal trial, not a malpratice trial ? Dr shafer has testified for one case , against Dr Katz, but consults about twice a year.

chernoff : You didn't like dr Katz : Dr Shafer : not very much (Dr Shafer smiles)

Chernoff goes through Dr Shafer's resume :

Stanford 1978 to 1983 , dr White was an assistant professor in anesthesia.
First published paper was in 1988, published 2 papers with Dr White.
After medical school, residency in pennsylvania, was a medical intern, then an anesthsia intern. Went back to san francisco in 1986,
About a paper written with r White : Dr Shafer was invlved in the computer program, and the maths , created a software to do calculations.
Dr white was the principal investigator. Dr Shafer believes dr White study was to show the benefits of the use of infusions of propofol for anesthesia (to mainatin anesthesia, at tht time propofol was only used for induction) . Dr Shafer wanted to help, he provided mathematical models.

Astra Zeneca propofol insert : Chernoff shows the graph that dr Shafer provided for the astra zeneca insert. This graph withstood the test of time. Shows the numbers Dr Shafer provided for the insert, for MAC sedation.

Break

 

[Ramona122003]

What was the significance of this, if any? What was Chernoff trying to prove?

He's trying to say Shefer is an asshole who threw his friend under the bus for the DA.

 

[smoothlugar]

There is no mention of brain concentration in the autopsy report, was it mentioned during cross? Or was it used in doctor Shafer's models? If so, they must have the results - which were delayed (remember that is the reason why the funeral was delayed).

No samples where taken for toxicology as far as we know.

I think Chernoff wanted to refer to the brain results in the simulations showed by Dr. Shaffer yesterday to make the witness as if not basing on real data.
But the simulations showed the expected results. And these were compared to the femoral concentration, which was the key point in Shafer's simulations.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

What was the significance of this, if any? What was Chernoff trying to prove?

chernoff was trying to show that shaffer was just being plain mean. interms of he knew b4 he testifyed that white had come to the conclusion that mj couldnt injest after getting the beagle study.shaffer knew of the study but didnt know white was involved until white told him personally. so chernoff implies shaffer didnt have to say anything about being dissapointed and was just raming his findings down whites throat to get back at him and get one over on him.because chernoff claims that in whites original report he wrote that there was speculation that mj could have drunk the stuff not that in whites opinion he drank it. but shaffer replied by saying your not giving the whole sentence/paragraph by white. ie white did say in another section of the report that he thought mj drank it.chernoff was cutting and pasting so to speak

 

[Ramona122003]

chernoff was trying to show that shaffer was just being plain mean. interms of he knew b4 he testifyed that white had come to the conclusion that mj couldnt injest after getting the beagle study.shaffer knew of the study but didnt know white was involved until white told him personally. so chernoff implies shaffer didnt have to say anything about being dissapointed and was just raming his findings down whites throat to get back at him and get one over on him.because chernoff claims that in whites original report he wrote that there was speculation that mj could have drunk the stuff not that in whites opinion he drank it. but shaffer replied by saying your not giving the whole sentence/paragraph by white. ie white did say in another section of the report that he thought mj drank it.chernoff was cutting and pasting so to speak

I thing is that Sheffer was disappointed that White would/could even suggest that Michael drank it as a solution to why propofol was in his stomach. As Sheffer said, there was other more possible reasons they would involve drinking it.

We also didn't get the full context of White's statement because Chernoff didn't allow him to read it.

 

[xthunderx2]

No samples where taken for toxicology as far as we know.

I think Chernoff wanted to refer to the brain results in the simulations showed by Dr. Shaffer yesterday to make the witness as if not basing on real data.
But the simulations showed the expected results. And these were compared to the femoral concentration, which was the key point in Shafer's simulations.

man I cannot believe I am asking this question,,makes me feel bad to ask it ..but here goes. Didn't they say that after MJ passed that they were doing tests on his brain? they said that they were going to dissect it? Would anything from those findings play a role in any of Chernofs questions such as chemical findings? Damn that was hard to write.

 

[Ramona122003]

man I cannot believe I am asking this question,,makes me feel bad to ask it ..but here goes. Didn't they say that after MJ passed that they were doing tests on his brain? they said that they were going to dissect it? Would anything from those findings play a role in any of Chernofs questions such as chemical findings? Damn that was hard to write.

Specially, they wanted to test to see if the brain showed any physical or chemical signs of addicted. For example, long-term opiate abused damages the brain, maybe more so then the organs like the liver. I remember reading that opiate addiction can make the brain seem like one of a old person even if the person is fairly young. Even a short-term addicted can be chemical seen in the brain since opiate tend to drain the brain of ephedrine, the chemical that controls happiness. In fact, short and long-term depression is linked with recovering opiate addicts.

 

[myosotis]

chernoff was trying to show that shaffer was just being plain mean. interms of he knew b4 he testifyed that white had come to the conclusion that mj couldnt injest after getting the beagle study.shaffer knew of the study but didnt know white was involved until white told him personally. so chernoff implies shaffer didnt have to say anything about being dissapointed and was just raming his findings down whites throat to get back at him and get one over on him.because chernoff claims that in whites original report he wrote that there was speculation that mj could have drunk the stuff not that in whites opinion he drank it. but shaffer replied by saying your not giving the whole sentence/paragraph by white. ie white did say in another section of the report that he thought mj drank it.chernoff was cutting and pasting so to speak

I think he was also trying to say that it was uncalled for as Shafer had gone to the trouble of spending 2 months working on the human Propofol oral ingestion trial in Chile...which he implied was a waste of time if Shafer already knew that oral propofol was ineffective.....so pot calling kettle black...you can't say you are disappointed about considering oral ingestion (which should be known to be ineffective to a 1st year med student) and also think its OK to spend time and money on a study proving the same point.

Shafer responded by saying that real human data make the study worthwhile, as this is more 'concrete' and scientific than extrapolations.

 

[cinzia]

He's trying to say Shefer is an asshole who threw his friend under the bus for the DA.

I think that sums it pretty succinctly..

As far as brain levels of any drugs, I think chernoff knows good and well there are no results reporting this. I think he will use this as another example of how Dr. S used assumptions to arrive at his conclusions and thus his conclusions are flawed. I also think Dr. S. knows there are no results because for everything else it was obvious he had a ready answer even if it was to say 'it is right here' or whatever. The point being he knew what the answer was. But for this question it was apparent, at least to me, that there was no answer.. Had there been, we would have heard about the levels well before now.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

@ myos.. Yeah agree thats exactly what chernoff was trying to say

 

[xthunderx2]

Specially, they wanted to test to see if the brain showed any physical or chemical signs of addicted. For example, long-term opiate abused damages the brain, maybe more so then the organs like the liver. I remember reading that opiate addiction can make the brain seem like one of a old person even if the person is fairly young. Even a short-term addicted can be chemical seen in the brain since opiate tend to drain the brain of ephedrine, the chemical that controls happiness. In fact, short and long-term depression is linked with recovering opiate addicts.

but these things the loraz and the diaz are benzo's and not opiates,,,right? So they didnt test the brain at all for the concentrations of the benzo's and the prop? Sorry I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to these kinds of drugs,,,I just know what to much of them can do to you, and that is what they did to Michael.