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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

abigaillovesmj said:
Exactly. I don't understand why the defense brought it up - it makes murray look even worse (it that is at all possible lol)
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They're trying to steer a "reasonable" middle ground -- say that Murray did some things wrong, took some chances, but that he had the situation under control and nothing would have gone wrong but for the crazy addict celebrity. Defense theory #1254837 is that Murray was using conscious sedation, which he is certified in, to treat insomnia. That is why White emphasizes that there are common off-label uses for medications and defends that Chinese study as "interesting" and worthy of further study. That is why White sticks hard and fast to the idea that Murray gave only 25 mg of propofol at a time, and there couldn't have been a drip. And that is why Michael "has" to be an addict, to introduce a rogue factor into the conscientious doctor's plans and make it all go south. The jury is supposed to focus on the idea of death by crazy happenstance, with poor Murray doing his best to manage a difficult patient and winding up caught in a bad situation. This is meant to engender enough sympathy for the jury to let Murray off or at least to garner the lightest sentence possible if he's convicted.

And the defense can just forget about it. Walgren will flatten them on cross.
 
The prosecution gets to have the last word since the burden of proof falls on them..

I find it highly suspicious that Murray's team has never mentioned the recording of MJ that Murray did.. They knew exactly what Murray was doing and what kind of state he was putting MJ in so for him to play 'dumb' is ridiculous.. Also how did Mike self-inject without leaving not one fingerprint on anything?? can Dr White explain that? did the defense forget that?:scratch:
 
Re the recording. they implied mj self medicated as murray had sundays off. but the recording was made on a sunday morn and he worked 6 nights a week having s.unday night off. maybe the pros will play it again at the end and ask the jury how mj
could self inject in that sort of state. as u would have to presume murray was making mj like that when he gave benzos etc.


one issue re whites testimony he seemed adament that theres no way i.v loraz would get into the stomach except for if it was taken via a tablet.yet shaffer explained that its vety normal to get in there.so someones lieing. also i feel to understand why the pros havnt brought up the fact that the stomach was ruptured which would put a stop to any talk about how it got there. because with what white has said and with shaffers mess of a loraz graph it was a clever play by the defence to ask what sounds more reasonable ie mj taking pills or murray doing it by shaffers graph.

To someone who takes everything white says literally his testimony was compelling so its now up to walgren to bring up all those inconsistances.
 
Monday cannot come soon enough. and uk and europe ppl remember the clocks go back tonight. so that means court starts an hour earlier american clocks go back the week after dont they?
 
So chernoff seems to have an issue with the jury instructions according to tweets from abc. hopefully thats a good thing

and they say the judge said u can have rebbutal and sub rebuttal by the defence and then rebuttal to that by the pros again! so this could go on forever!
 
The more I think about White's testimony, the more I think it'll be easy for Walgren to rip it to shreds. White testified that to get to the blood levels found at time of death, Michael had to have taken 8 Lorazapam pills (which he also testified is enough to kill someone) then 4/5 hours later, while Murray was out of the room for 2 minutes, he loaded a syringe with 25mg of propofol (no lidacain?) and self injected! How on earth would Michael have been able to do that with all that Lorazapam in him - especially within 2 minutes? It's ludacris!

This is all almost irrelevant anyway - lets not forget that the charge is for gross negligence (not for murder). The negligence hasn't really been disputed by the defence - just the dosage. It's just smoke & mirrors. I just pray the jury is savy enough to see through it all.
 
Monday is going to be a fascinating day. It's not going to be easy for Walgren to argue scientific evidence with a Dr, but I can see him having an easier time with White and Flanagan did last week with Shaeffer.
 
I dont think its about arguing the science. it more about showing whites selective usage of murrays words and things like how he lied about the iv set up for eg in order to make shaffers claims look false.
 
God knows! or i think he doest either. i thought only the pros do a rebuttal but it seemes the defence can rebute that and the pros can then rebute that aswell! like when they go back and forth on direct and cross and redirect. so if that happens heck knows. i was thinking before it might be around thursday but that would mean the pros doibg one day of rebuttal and nothing from the defence which doesnt seem likely. so in short heck knows. i think ill be cancelling more work as i only booked the first two weeks of
nov off to cover the verdict.
 
I'm not sure why everyone seemed to be concentrating on the empty 100ml bottle of propofol...the empty bottle was not the only one found. (ie whatever was given doesn't need to add up to exactly 100mls).

From Fleaks' testimony, other partially used bottles were found, so presumably Murray could have used these that day and packed them away at the same time as the empty bottle?

Full and part full bottles found
Propofol:Light blue baby essentials bag : 2 x full 100ml Propofol and 7 x 20 mls, 3 opened with various levels
Black bag: 3 bottles lidocaine - 2 empty 1 half full
 
imo..I dont think the jury is going to have that much of a problem coming to the guilty verdict...once they get the case anyway....they know this is about IM...hopefully they are keeping careful thoughts on,,how the standard of care was not met by Murray,,after all.. that is what this case is about and that is why,the pros charged him with IM.. I think they will see through the rest of the defenses bs...and just get murray convicted.
 
bowen9999 said:
The more I think about White's testimony, the more I think it'll be easy for Walgren to rip it to shreds. White testified that to get to the blood levels found at time of death, Michael had to have taken 8 Lorazapam pills (which he also testified is enough to kill someone) then 4/5 hours later, while Murray was out of the room for 2 minutes, he loaded a syringe with 25mg of propofol (no lidacain?) and self injected! How on earth would Michael have been able to do that with all that Lorazapam in him - especially within 2 minutes? It's ludacris!

This is all almost irrelevant anyway - lets not forget that the charge is for gross negligence (not for murder). The negligence hasn't really been disputed by the defence - just the dosage. It's just smoke & mirrors. I just pray the jury is savy enough to see through it all.
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No, it is even more ludacris! They are saying that MJ self injected 25mg of propofol mixed 1:1 with 25mg of lidacain. Because at the autopsy they found that 50mg of lidacain was administered to MJ that night. (according to the defense, 25 by Murray and 25 by MJ!)
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Re the recording. they implied mj self medicated as murray had sundays off. but the recording was made on a sunday morn and he worked 6 nights a week having s.unday night off. maybe the pros will play it again at the end and ask the jury how mj
could self inject in that sort of state. as u would have to presume murray was making mj like that when he gave benzos etc.


one issue re whites testimony he seemed adament that theres no way i.v loraz would get into the stomach except for if it was taken via a tablet.yet shaffer explained that its vety normal to get in there.so someones lieing. also i feel to understand why the pros havnt brought up the fact that the stomach was ruptured which would put a stop to any talk about how it got there. because with what white has said and with shaffers mess of a loraz graph it was a clever play by the defence to ask what sounds more reasonable ie mj taking pills or murray doing it by shaffers graph.

To someone who takes everything white says literally his testimony was compelling so its now up to walgren to bring up all those inconsistances.
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He obviously worked that Sunday because he is the one who recorded that recording with his own iphone! If the recording was made sunday morning that means that Murray gave that drugs to MJ during that night and during that morning - he fall asleep right after conversation with Murray (obviously propofol).
 
Yeah so not only does mj draw up lidocaine and dip in two mins and inject which takes around 30 secs in itself he does that all in the same sort of state as we heard in the audio. an ontop of that it means mj woke up at the exact moment murray left the room.
 
And it took no time for mj to wake up come to his senses with all that crap in him and think i know what ill self inject. its ludicrous. if we can rip it so easily look at what walgren will do
 
i knew they would go into urine levels of propofol. defense used free propofol for their model, not metabolites. i wonder if prosecution will now get hold of urine hydrol values for rebuttal. maybe they can show there was a bit more than 25mg of propofol


the good thing about the defence theory is that it doesn't support what murray said in his police interview:
  • he claimed he gave an iv drip after the initial bolus
  • he claimed he found mj not breathing but with a heartbeat
also self-injection would have been easier in a drip scenario: mj could have opened the roller clamp; in a bolus scenario he would have needed to draw up propofol and lidocaine into a syringe


elusive moonwalker said:
one issue re whites testimony he seemed adament that theres no way i.v loraz would get into the stomach except for if it was taken via a tablet.yet shaffer explained that its vety normal to get in there.so someones lieing. also i feel to understand why the pros havnt brought up the fact that the stomach was ruptured which would put a stop to any talk about how it got there.
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yes, they should bring up transmural bleeding. some possible reasons why small amounts of lorazepam given intravenously would show up in stomach:
  • transmural bleeding (mentioned in autopsy)
  • ion trapping (according to dan anderson)
  • elimination through intestines (what dr shafer explained)
elusive moonwalker said:
Re the recording. they implied mj self medicated as murray had sundays off. but the recording was made on a sunday morn and he worked 6 nights a week having s.unday night off. maybe the pros will play it again at the end and ask the jury how mj could self inject in that sort of state. as u would have to presume murray was making mj like that when he gave benzos etc.
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i agree we'll probably hear more about the audio recording. there must have been a reason why they played it during opening.

some problems with the high lorazepam levels found at time of death:
  • according to the defense scenario mj had high lorazepam concentrations from 8am till time of death
  • if mj was awake in spite of these high lorazepam levels he must have had considerable tolerance to lorazepam!
  • how had mj developed such tolerance to lorazepam in the first place? lee had treated mj up till march, she had run blood tests, and she never mentioned there were any problems with benzos
  • why did murray inject mj with intravenous lorazepam in addition to the oral lorazepam murray had precribed himself??
  • if we assume mj was awake at noon, would he have been sufficiently alert to self administer propofol? patients under the influence of lorazepam are groggy
more problems with the defence self-injection theory:

large amount of urine in bladder:
  • why did mj not try and relieve himself when he was waking up from sedation?
  • this is also a problem with the supposed 10:50am bolus, why did mj not relieve himself before murray gave him this bolus?
position of iv site:
  • if mj self administered he must have moved to reach the iv site, but since propofol has such short onset of action murray wouldnt have "found" him in the same position he had left him when he went for his 2min break; why didn't murray mention this in his police interview or to the emts?
the phone call with sade anding:
  • anding overheard mumbling and coughing at shortly before noon
  • this implies mj was still alive at this time and murray was at mj's bedside when mj died
  • since mj must have died within minutes of the lethal bolus (not ten minutes later!) this places murray at the scene when the bolus was administered: anding was on the phone for several minutes and overheard commotion, coughing, mumbling

another issue prosecution should focus on are the empty flumazenil vials:
for what did murray need all this flumazenil??
 
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Looking forward to Monday to hear the Walgren cross. He's brilliant at what he does - this time he's had a weekend to prepare. I sense fireworks. Defense can say what they like - bottom line is Murray administered benzo's and propofol and left Michael to die. Guilty.
 
Didnt white claim loraz doesnt do post mortem redistrubution?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
I dont think its about arguing the science. it more about showing whites selective usage of murrays words and things like how he lied about the iv set up for eg in order to make shaffers claims look false.
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EXACTLY. It is not about arguing the science. He is going to show that based on the findings of the autopsy report, Muarry's words, the experts and eye witnesses, Whites theories are inconsistent.

I found also that White at times was trying to explain things that only the coroner could explain, and when he attempted to discuss what was found in the stomach, his testimony was not consistent with the autopsy report especially as someone pointed out about the effects of working on the body by EMT's and medical personnel.

Again, there is much Walgren can do with White's testimony, and he has the weekend to contact Shafer who will guide him in his cross. Further, the DA's have access to people who can school them in the technical aspects of the case, if Walgren thinks it is difficult to understand the science. Look at how so many of us understood the scientific and technical aspects of prof use, its metabolism, and effects by listening to and looking at Shafer. He was a clear, lucid and a fantastic teacher, so Walgren will have no problem with understanding.
 
Has anyone been recording the trial the past few days? Missed some :(
 
I was at work yesterday and couldn't watch any of the testimony. I just went over bouee's summary to edit them and somethings are every interesting.

if I'm not mistaken white doesn't say that Michael filled the syringe himself. so it means that there was a ready propofol +lidocaine syringe by his bedside?

and then Michael taking 8 pills at 7 am (or some pills at 6 and some pills at 8).

well doesn't both of them would require Murray to leave Michael a lot more than he said he did?
 
ivy said:
I was at work yesterday and couldn't watch any of the testimony. I just went over bouee's summary to edit them and somethings are every interesting.

if I'm not mistaken white doesn't say that Michael filled the syringe himself. so it means that there was a ready propofol +lidocaine syringe by his bedside?
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He ddn't say anything about who filled the syringe, but when talking about Dr Shafer's multiple self injections he did say that drawing propofol was difficult, so drawing it several times was something he might not be able to do himself

ivy said:
and then Michael taking 8 pills at 7 am (or some pills at 6 and some pills at 8).

well doesn't both of them would require Murray to leave Michael a lot more than he said he did?
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He was specific that the pills were taken before 8 am, around 7 I think he said. He said also that it was not necessarily 8 pills together, could have been 3 pills here, another 2 pills there , etc... so yes that implied that Murray was away ...

During the opening arguments, Michael took them at 10, now it's 7, maybe he took the pills at different times during the night, and Murray has to be out of the room during the self injection, that according to White, happened between 11 30 and 12. Makes you wonder when Murray actually was in the room.

I have 4 days off, so I'm going to rewatch it in case I missed something (I was a bit tired), and catch up with the testimony I missed (Waldman), I'm sure there's a lot Walgren can do with White.

Ivy and everyone here who relies on our updates, if the trial goes on, starting wednesday I won't be able to watch and take notes of the morning sessions, I'll be here only for the afternoon, because of my work schedule.:(
 
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ivy said:
I was at work yesterday and couldn't watch any of the testimony. I just went over bouee's summary to edit them and somethings are every interesting.

if I'm not mistaken white doesn't say that Michael filled the syringe himself. so it means that there was a ready propofol +lidocaine syringe by his bedside?

and then Michael taking 8 pills at 7 am (or some pills at 6 and some pills at 8).

well doesn't both of them would require Murray to leave Michael a lot more than he said he did?
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No, he actually said that Michael filled the syringe himself with propofol & lidocaine! Maybe he didn't said it specifically but that is what he thought!
 
Multiple self injections 50mg each, inconsistent with lidocaine found at autopsy, would be difficult for MJ, propofol is difficult to draw , Dr White i not sure he would do it himself, defense never claimed that
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can anyone clarify the bolded part for me?
 
ivy said:
can anyone clarify the bolded part for me?
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that's Dr Shafer's multiple 50mg self injections simulation. Dr White was commenting on the simulation saying that : it was not consistent with the levels of lidocaine found at autopsy (I think there were 6 self injections in Dr Shafer's simmulation, so 6 injections of 5cc of lidocaine), and that Michael wouldn't be able to self inject so often because "propofol is hard to draw, I'm not sure I could do it myself"

EDIT : Flanagan added that the defense had never claimed that MJ self injected multiple times.

I don't remember White saying "MJ filled the syringe", but I might have missed it, and I agree with Omirmj, it was at least implied : White's theory is a 25mg self injection.

2nd EDIT to be clear about White's theory : a 25mg self injection, done too fast
 
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From what i remember white never said mj didnt fill the syringes himself. it was just implied assumed that mj filled the syringe cause nothing else was said saying the opposite during his testimony. im sure if the defence wanted to imply one was already filled they would have come right out and said it
 
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