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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

missred07 said:
Your definition is correct but you example is not so correct. When the oxgen go down, your heart actually will beat faster and faster because it want more oxygen to circulate throughout the body. It also won't happened that your heart stop when you hold your breath for long enough. Because you will pass out and your medulla oblongata keep sending out message to breath automatically. Your heart won't just stop because you hold your breath long enough.
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Yeah I understand it's not the best example, I was just trying to think of a way to compare the two. Thanks for clarifying though. :)
 
bobmoo79 said:
Where were the hiltons during the 2005 trial? I didn't see them outside or inside the court house then....
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uh huh, now it's safe to come out and show support. The whole world is doing it now, even the haters. I totally feel you on this.
Alot of people were never there when Michael REALLY needed them. Too much of a risk I guess.
 
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Hey, do any of you think it will be useful to list down all the inconsistency in White testimony/demonstration/wrongly putting Shaffers testimony in context somewhere? I see a lot of visitor on this site and perhaps we can do a summary to help Walgren/Brazil or even email to them??? I am so frustrated now with all the false pretence of White (I won't even address him as a doctor).

To me, no doctor will agree and think it is ok for a doctor to pump a person up for 2 months full of propofol, lorazepam, midozalam and not have all the necessary equipment. Its sickening!!!
 
smoothlugar;3522736 said:
Well, Dr. White is very deceptive and sly on purpose, in spite of his pretended falsely "neutrality" in his monotonous and apparently unemotional, matter-of-fact manner of speech. (We saw that when Shaffer was testifying he was also passionate, and responded with body language to his peer testimony... , besides other evidence of verbal insults we have learnt from him...).Here is just ONE EXAMPLE OF DISTORTION, about the first demonstration he carried out: From the summaries about Shaffer’s demonstration using a syringe with 25mg propofol:“CM in his statement to the police said that he turned off the saline before giving Propofol with a syringe. Shafer shows the rubber clamp and how you can stop the flow with the clamp. Shafer demonstrates infusing 25mg of Propofol with syringe as CM mentioned in his interview. Propofol doesn't come out of the tube as the saline is turned off and not coming to push Propofol out. So CM's description of infusing it over 3 to 5 minutes is impossible if the turned off the saline. You need to unclamp the saline for Propofol to come out.”
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Great example and one of the reasons why i hate the defence. its nothing but blatent lieing and white goes along with it. totally immoral and is nothing short of deception to get a guilty man off
 
Elusive -There are lots of other defence theories they could use - latoya' s conspiracy of people hiding in the bedroom, the believers who say that mj isn't actually dead. The trial is't ending until next week, so am expecting some new implausible scenarios to emerge.

Re the tubing demo - actually shaffer did have the wrong tubing in his demo. He couldn't get the exact tubing as murray had so got another one from a different supplier which had a longer length for the syringe part, which is why the prop bolus solution couldn't reach mj. On murray's tubing, the length was much shorter, so there wasn't the same problem.
 
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Bonnie Blue said:
Sorry to be a pain, but this was something that bugged me in that 'tec interview. There were no specific timings for anything that happened after 10.40-10.50 bolus injection of prop and 12.20 911 call. The detectives never asked for the time murray went to the bathroom and when he discovered mj not breathing. All murray said was he stayed by mj's bedside until he felt comfortable enough to leave which could mean 15 mins or an hour. You can check the interview if you like, but i'm certain there was no specific timeline.
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Check page 61. 10:50 - and he gave quite a bit of a timeline during that interview starting at around the time Michael came home until after noon, sometimes saying that he looked at his watch (when he told doctors at the hospital he didn't have a watch).

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf
 
elusive moonwalker said:
what other defence do they have. they have been through everything else
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Yeah, but that's just so plain stupid! I mean, even a 10 year old child would know that using an already disproved theory in court won't help the accused at all!
Then why the hell is the defense still there, what's their point they're trying to make? :doh:
 
Re. Propofol excretion in the urine:
I'd made some notes from Shafers' testimony, and it appeared that he could not do this calculation..he had no P glucuronide value from the Tox report (is this right) and also no model for P glucuronide in the urine ( only for the 'first pass' process and excretion to bile, I think).

If Shafer was unable to do this, how come White's Colleague could create the charts shown today and say they were consistent with Propofol levels in the urine.
I may have misunderstood something or missed something in the Shafer Cross testimony???? (Edit: I've checked Ivy's notes and they seem to agreethere was no P glucuronide value in the urine tox report. White was very adamant that his model fit the urine Prop value and Shafers did not))

Propofol glucuronide excretion in the urine- from tox wiki:
http://toxwiki.wikispaces.com/Propofol

Urine
Propofol glucuronide is the main urinary metabolite of propofol, a hypnotic agent used for the induction and maintenance of general anesthesia.

Notes from Chernoff cross Shafer re. Propofol glucuronide: (Monday 24th I think)
Ch: (In your modelling) Did you determine the urine concentration of propofol glucuronide at death?
Sh: No, I did not...I would have to find a model for P glucuronide in the urine to do that.
Ch: The FDA says the glucuronide conjugate accounts for 50% of propofol. How much is eliminated into the urine?
Sh: This is a difficult question to answer as a fair amount first goes into the bile. Cant' tell how much goes from the bile into the urine....would need to do some research.
Ch: Is 100mls (dose) inconsistent with 2mg (?) in the urine?
Sh: I would need to look at models..it has to be based on data.
Ch: would you say the urine found after MJs death could be evidence for or against your 100ml hypothetical (dose).
Shafer: Am without a model for Prop glucuronide in urine or in urine / bile so without such a model I would not be willing to offer an opinion on whther it is for or against this model. I wasn't aware there was a Propofol glucuronide value from the autopsy.
Ch: (I think) 2 urine samples were tested a) from the (jug on) the chair in the residence and b) autopsy urine.
Could you (or anyone with Pharmacol knowledge be able to take the 100 mg Propofol example and see if the urine value is consistent?
Sh: This is a propofol value and not a glucuronide value in the tox report. If I have the glucuronide value and a model, they could be tested for consistency.
 
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"the 25mg bolus injection ontop of the loraz and midaz is potentially lethal says white" - I don't understand this. what are they talking about? Murray said he gave Michael 25 mg over 3-5 minutes. are they claiming mj gave himself another dose of 25 mj on top of that?

and what times are they talking about? why would it be lethal? If mj died around noon (this seems to be the consensus) when was the second dose of 25 mg given? and why would the loraz and midaz still have an impact by then? White said himself it dissolves quickly - so by noon not much would be left.

I don't understand their point.
 
I just looked at the following pages (after 61) in the police interview and it's true, there is no timeline after 10:50, he just said he watched him for a while and then went to the bathroom. But he also said he was only gone for 2 minutes.
 
Milka said:
I just looked at the following pages (after 61) in the police interview and it's true, there is no timeline after 10:50, he just said he watched him for a while and then went to the bathroom. But he also said he was only gone for 2 minutes.
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which then to an extent does create a timeline. but watching for a while hardky equates to watching him for over an hour. which is what hes implying. of course at this point he was hiding the phonecalls. he was also on the phone from around 10.30 aswell but the defence seem to forget this when they claim mj was begging and murray was taking the time to mix up and inject
 
abigaillovesmj said:
"the 25mg bolus injection ontop of the loraz and midaz is potentially lethal says white" - I don't understand this. what are they talking about? Murray said he gave Michael 25 mg over 3-5 minutes. are they claiming mj gave himself another dose of 25 mj on top of that?

and what times are they talking about? why would it be lethal? If mj died around noon (this seems to be the consensus) when was the second dose of 25 mg given? and why would the loraz and midaz still have an impact by then? White said himself it dissolves quickly - so by noon not much would be left.

I don't understand their point.
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Yes, I understand they are claiming another 'self injected' bolus at noon.
 
Milka said:
Check page 61. 10:50 - and he gave quite a bit of a timeline during that interview starting at around the time Michael came home until after noon, sometimes saying that he looked at his watch (when he told doctors at the hospital he didn't have a watch).

http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf
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Thanks for providing the tmz interview. Checked page 61/62 - there are NO times after 10.50 when Murray injected the bolus. Det smith - 11 o'clock now? Murray - (doesn't reply to this question) He fell asleep fairly quickly.. Continues to sleep...I was monitoring him..I stayed there and watched...for long enough period that i felt comfortable. Then i need to go to the bathroom.

The detectives were on top of the timeline with murray UNTIL the prop bolus injection. Then it all goes out the window until that 911 phone call. It annoyed me no end as it could have nailed murray down more specifically and then you could compare with the phone calls he made. If you don't agree just pm me as this is derailing the thread but i'm not seeing those times.

Edit - just saw your post upthread milka. Just ignore my post!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
which then to an extent does create a timeline. but watching for a while hardky equates to watching him for over an hour. which is what hes implying. of course at this point he was hiding the phonecalls
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Yes, he didn't mention them. And yes, "a while" probably isn't an hour, that's why a lot of people doubt noon as time of death, it could have been earlier, around 11. Yes, I know he lied about everything in this interview, it just would be weird to say he gave it at 10:50 and then noticed something was wrong at around noon and then had somebody call 911 20 - 25 minutes later. He must have known that police might wonder what happened in those 1 1/2 hours, so I don't know why he didn't say he gave it at 11:50 (which would still mean 911 was called more than 20 minutes too late, but it's slightly less outrageous than 1 1/2 hours). This either means that Michael probably died at around 11 or that he definitely must have been on a drip starting at 10:50 and it made him stop breathing at around noon and then killed him. If you believe that part of the interview. He could have been on a drip a lot longer though.
 
That is good for the prosecutor. I sounded like just a short while that he claimed he observed and then went to the bathroom for 2 mins. There is a gap of 44 mins between the phone call 10.43am to 11.18am where he must have given the bolus plus the drip. After that he is talking non stop, one phone call after another until he discover Michael at 12.02pm. So, if White is claiming that Murray is giving concious sedation, with him talking on the phone next to Michael, Michael would have woke up. This does not make sense at all.

Milka said:
I just looked at the following pages (after 61) in the police interview and it's true, there is no timeline after 10:50, he just said he watched him for a while and then went to the bathroom. But he also said he was only gone for 2 minutes.
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Later on the defence claimed the timeline was wrong and it was an hour later than what murray claimed. chernoff at the time said the police got it wrong. i guess they forgot the interview was taped.
 
Bonnie Blue, I agree with you that the police should have asked him specific questions about the times after 10:50 and what he did during that time apart from watching him "for a while" and then going to the bathroom for 2 minutes and finding Michael in trouble when coming back. The defense can now try to twist this weak part of the interview any way they want, put in self-injections, etc. The only problem with that is still that Murray was grossly negligent. Even if he left only for 2 minutes whenever during those about 70 minutes, he shouldn't have left at all. He should have had the equipment needed, the meds should have been locked away, etc. Nothing the defense tries can make all this go away.

elusive moonwalker said:
Later on the defence claimed the timeline was wrong and it was an hour later than what murray claimed. chernoff at the time said the police got it wrong. i guess they forgot the interview was taped.
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Yes, I know that they claimed that and yes, they must have forgotten that is was taped. Police didn't get this wrong.
 
"Just to clarify: Chernoff told judge that Walgren received the cert document 6 weeks ago and Walgren didn't have an issue w/ it until now."

"Walgren was having an issue with the certification document. He claimed the process by which it was delivered 2 him violated the court rules"

"Judge admonished attorneys that he expects attorneys to be in communication over the weekend and cannot have continuing issues w/ discovery."
 
I wish I could understand these medical things better. I don't believe Michael gave himself anything.
 
Milka said:
Bonnie Blue, I agree with you that the police should have asked him specific questions about the times after 10:50 and what he did during that time apart from watching him "for a while" and then going to the bathroom for 2 minutes and finding Michael in trouble when coming back. The defense can now try to twist this weak part of the interview any way they want, put in self-injections, etc. The only problem with that is still that Murray was grossly negligent. Even if he left only for 2 minutes whenever during those about 70 minutes, he shouldn't have left at all. He should have had the equipment needed, the meds should have been locked away, etc. Nothing the defense tries can make all this go away.
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Another annoying thing with that interview is that the vital all-important 2 mins murray was away, was actually suggested by the detective, albeit confirmed by murray. What was the detective doing in suggesting times to the doctor? I think the defence is going to say, it was difficult for murray to estimate the time he was away and so he agreed with the detective, and actually it was 3-5 mins. There is no way the jury is going to buy that mj did all that rummaging around looking for drugs, syringes etc in 2 mins.
 
Popescu said:
This is the debate I had with Soundmind a while ago.
It was argued that although the amount in the blood was very high, the amount in the urine is very small. But the urine in the jar contained Propofol, so that points also to IV. Doctor Shafer will have to work hard over the weekend to demonstrate the rate of elimination of Propofol and to correlate it with the model.
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Regarding the urine 'at the scene'. we do not know when it was collected, was it collected at one time or was it an accumulation of output over several hours? Didn't cm say he emptied some of the urine when he went to the bathroom? I think I remember reading he said that, could be wrong. Why accumulate all that urine? Only if it is done over time. So actually why should anyone place so much emphasis on it? If it was collected from the c. catheter was Michael so deeply asleep he lost bladder control? Or was he so sedated he was not safe to get out of bed? Or was it for his convenience so he would not have to get out of bed? One could argue each way and we still wouldn't know.
I feel it is muddying the issue to put too much value on the scene urine.
Suppose there had been no scene urine for comparison? What difference would it make?



Another thing that bothers me is the presence of drugs in the lower tubing. IF cm had given the flumazenil as a bolus to reverse the effects of benzos, why did it remain in the tubing. He should have opened up the rate of the saline IV wide open and flushed the med into Michael. but all three drugs were found in the tubing so how can he have gotten any flumanzenil into michael for it to work? OR was Michael already dead and the IV would. not. run.? Or did he just screw up and forget to open the clamp?
 
myosotis said:
Re. Propofol excretion in the urine:
I'd made some notes from Shafers' testimony, and it appeared that he could not do this calculation..he had no P glucuronide value from the Tox report (is this right) and also no model for P glucuronide in the urine ( only for the 'first pass' process and excretion to bile, I think).

If Shafer was unable to do this, how come White's Colleague could create the charts shown today and say they were consistent with Propofol levels in the urine.
I may have misunderstood something or missed something in the Shafer Cross testimony???? (Edit: I've checked Ivy's notes and they seem to agreethere was no P glucuronide value in the urine tox report. White was very adamant that his model fit the urine Prop value and Shafers did not))
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I dont get that either??? No urine used with shafer, but white did??

And what is it with that the pros didnt get it the right way? Which document are they talking about?? Is that the new model of dr white with the urine in it??

Also can somebody help me with this:

What i dont get.. The bolus inject given bymichael himself at 11.50 *white model* gave a rapid high green line, but it goes down rapid too. So how will it be the same level as autopsy blood, if the heart beats some longer that the respotary arrest?
 
cinzia said:
Regarding the urine 'at the scene'. we do not know when it was collected, was it collected at one time or was it an accumulation of output over several hours? Didn't cm say he emptied some of the urine when he went to the bathroom? I think I remember reading he said that, could be wrong. Why accumulate all that urine? Only if it is done over time. So actually why should anyone place so much emphasis on it? If it was collected from the c. catheter was Michael so deeply asleep he lost bladder control? Or was he so sedated he was not safe to get out of bed? Or was it for his convenience so he would not have to get out of bed? One could argue each way and we still wouldn't know.
I feel it is muddying the issue to put too much value on the scene urine.
Suppose there had been no scene urine for comparison? What difference would it make?
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I agree with you - the scene urine seems very prone to giving unreliable data
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Another annoying thing with that interview is that the vital all-important 2 mins murray was away, was actually suggested by the detective, albeit confirmed by murray. What was the detective doing in suggesting times to the doctor? I think the defence is going to say, it was difficult for murray to estimate the time he was away and so he agreed with the detective, and actually it was 3-5 mins. There is no way the jury is going to buy that mj did all that rummaging around looking for drugs, syringes etc in 2 mins.
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No, page 64, Martinez suggests that he was gone "for a couple of minutes". And Murray says: "I was gone, I would say, about two minutes." So the 2 minutes came from Murray.

If I was a juror and with everything I have heard (even if I was totally unbiased, I can look at it this way and let's say had Waldman brought up something reasonable yesterday, I would say that and not deny it), the phone calls and all the other lies in the police interview, the 17 violations of standard of care, those things would be enough for me to say he is guilty of IM. I would still like to know what happened exactly and how it happened exactly, and going by the testimonies I think there was a drip, not just a bolus, it might have been started earlier in the morning than 10:50 am, Murray was either in the room or he wasn't, maybe during the hours of the morning of June 25 he was in and out of the room, but not paying much or any attention, being on the phone a lot, and then something went wrong with the drip because there was no pump and Michael at some point got too much too fast and he stopped breathing. Either Murray, for some reason, was there that moment and saw it and then just didn't do the right things or he wasn't even there and came back when it was already too late. And he tried to cover up everything, either way. By delaying the 911 call (that alone is grossly negligent, even in the defense scenario of Michael self medicating, you call 911 right away, the first thing you do), having Alvarez stuff bottles and saline bags into bags, by picking up things himself, by not telling the paramedics and the doctors at the hospital what he had given him, by going MIA for 2 days, lying in the police interview, etc., etc. Nothing the defense does or says or did and said changes any of that, there is no reasonable doubt for me, in fact, there is no doubt at all that he is guilty and that he knew it the moment it happened on June 25.

For me, because how can a doctor be that stupid, it even looks like he might have done it with intent.
 
cinzia said:
Didn't cm say he emptied some of the urine when he went to the bathroom? I think I remember reading he said that, could be wrong.
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He said he "considered" to empty the jug when he went to the bathroom. Whatever that means. If it means he did take it with him and emptied it, he obviously lied, for whatever reason.
 
Milka said:
No, page 64, Martinez suggests that he was gone "for a couple of minutes". And Murray says: "I was gone, I would say, about two minutes." So the 2 minutes came from Murray.

If I was a juror and with everything I have heard (even if I was totally unbiased, I can look at it this way and let's say had Waldman brought up something reasonable yesterday, I would say that and not deny it), the phone calls and all the other lies in the police interview, the 17 violations of standard of care, those things would be enough for me to say he is guilty of IM. I would still like to know what happened exactly and how it happened exactly, and going by the testimonies I think there was a drip, not just a bolus, it might have been started earlier in the morning than 10:50 am, Murray was either in the room or he wasn't, maybe during the hours of the morning of June 25 he was in and out of the room, but not paying much or any attention, being on the phone a lot, and then something went wrong with the drip because there was no pump and Michael at some point got too much too fast and he stopped breathing. Either Murray, for some reason, was there that moment and saw it and then just didn't do the right things or he wasn't even there and came back when it was already too late. And he tried to cover up everything, either way. By delaying the 911 call (that alone is grossly negligent, even in the defense scenario of Michael self medicating, you call 911 right away, the first thing you do), having Alvarez stuff bottles and saline bags into bags, by picking up things himself, by not telling the paramedics and the doctors at the hospital what he had given him, by going MIA for 2 days, lying in the police interview, etc., etc. Nothing the defense does or says or did and said changes any of that, there is no reasonable doubt for me, in fact, there is no doubt at all that he is guilty and that he knew it the moment it happened on June 25.

For me, because how can a doctor be that stupid, it even looks like he might have done it with intent.
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I agree. all the cover up and not doing the right things (even though we now know he was certified to give sedation) makes it seem as if it was intentional.
 
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