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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

Ingelief said:
Walgren SHOUKD have crossed it, even without a new model prepared. He could have nailed some question right away
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Had he done that, he would have had to go through more than 3 hours of cross today without new models. It's not like he could have said in the middle of the cross "can we please stop early today".
 
Did he say that with a small amount of propofol you don't need monitoring equipment?

I am going to try and have faith in Walgren come Monday.
 
Was flannigan finished?
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yes he said direct was over

So mj died of an immediate heart attack after injecting this 25mg to allow that prop to remain at a high blood level at time of death - did they explain that, i must have missed it. So they need to completely impeach murray thinking mj still alive with a pulse etc
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i dont think he ever addressed that. at one point they got to the thing about the heart beating for another 10 mins.think it was that as i heard them mention 10 mins but i didnt get what they were talking about so didnt write it down but nothing stood out interms of how the levels stayed high anyone else get that bit?
 
For those interested Genevieve, Randy Jr. and Autumn were in court today along with Randy, Janet and Joe.
 
I'm a little bit surprised, I thought it would be worse. I'm a bit tired now, I will go over it again tomorrow, but my first impression is that he didn't "contradict" everything Dr Shafer said, and left a lot of possibilities for Walgren
 
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Rick and Kathy Hilton are in the courthouse to support #MichaelJackson family #conradmurraytrial
1 hour ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Randy's guests are his daughter Genevieve and son Randy Jr. Jermaine's daughter Autumn just arrived
1 hour ago

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
#MichaelJackson's family present: Randy, Janet and dad Joe. Randy has two younger guests with him. #conradmurraytrial
3 hours ago
 
k but elusive if your really honest, why not cross now? for alittle while? even ask 1 thing?
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u cant start cross and the stop 20 mins later and re start on monday . if he starts now he has to go through with it. and look at it like this. how confusing for the jury to have 20 mins cross now and then have to stop and wait till monday for the rest.thats hardly gonna have a good effect is it
 
HumanNature2210 said:
White is very unprofessional and also purposely deceptive, choosing and picking Murray's statement when it suits him to support his case. He also look like a "rat", those that is not trustworthy.
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Hey, let's not judge somebody by a 'look', ok?
 
ok didnt think of that. i thought he coul stop now when its lunch time.. and asked a few questions.
thx milka too
 
marebear said:
Did he say that with a small amount of propofol you don't need monitoring equipment?

I am going to try and have faith in Walgren come Monday.
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I did not hear that, I understood exactly the opposite, when he was talking about variability. He didn't talk about equipment, but he kept saying that patients reacts differently. Exactly the same thing as the prosecution doctors and the autopsy report : one of the reason you need equipment is that you can't predict the patients reaction.

So he didn't say it, of course Flanagan didn't ask, I expect Walgren to use "variability" to get Dr White to re explain the equipment needed, and comment on Murray's equipment
 
White is very unprofessional and also purposely deceptive, choosing and picking Murray's statement when it suits him to support his case.
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very true. he was very selective. he has given walgren alot to work with
 
I have few questions:

1. Can White come back after dr. Shafer testify again?
2. Can propofol with benzos cause cardiac arrest? And if the person have cardiac arrest, is he still alive (is his heart still beating or how long his heart continues to beat)? If it really was cardiac arrest then is Murray lying that MJ's heart was still beating or is that possible?
3. Are we 100% sure that it was pulmonary and not cardiac arrest? Can coroner make a mistake like that?

Please..
 
I agree with you Bonnie. Shafer should come out with another scenario where the bolus injection is at 10.40am which is in Murray's statement. Then Murray continue with a drip and possibly with a faster drip hence, the bottle almost empty. Again, ultimatum, you do not abandon your patient when you pump them up with propofol especially without any equipment to monitor and resuscitate.
 
bouee said:
I did not hear that, I understood exactly the opposite, when he was talking about variability. He didn't talk about equipment, but he kept saying that patients reacts differently. Exactly the same thing as the prosecution doctors and the autopsy report : one of the reason you need equipment is that you can't predict the patients reaction.

So he didn't say it, of course Flanagan didn't ask, I expect Walgren to use "variability" to get Dr White to re explain the equipment needed, and comment on Murray's equipment
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Thanks.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
its involuntaary manslaughter not murder. the jury have to find that murray "significanlty contributed to mjs death". the evidence clearly shows that he did..they dont have to show that murray actually physically killed mj
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elusive...I've never been so happy to be wrong. Thanks for the reminder. Here is the legal definition of involuntary manslaughter. Walgren just has to keep stressing the negligence.


What is involuntary manslaughter?

The act of unlawfully killing another human being unintentionally.

Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious.

Many states do not define involuntary manslaughter, or define it vaguely in common-law terms. Some jurisdictions describe the amount of Negligence necessary to constitute manslaughter with terms such as criminal negligence, gross negligence, and culpable negligence. The only certainty that can be attached to these terms is that they require more than the ordinary negligence standard in a civil case. With this approach the state does not have to prove that the defendant was aware of the risk.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/involuntary+manslaughter

In California, they do define it as Walgren has with "gross negligence". I had found a link to California's explicit definition, but lost it, and now I have to get back to work.

But thanks to all for your help in getting through all this.
 
Ingelief said:
ok didnt think of that. i thought he coul stop now when its lunch time.. and asked a few questions.
thx milka too
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No, there are rules and the attorneys for both sides can't just do whatever they want and end the day whenever they want. And they all have to agree, including the judge.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yes he said direct was over



i dont think he ever addressed that. at one point they got to the thing about the heart beating for another 10 mins.think it was that as i heard them mention 10 mins but i didnt get what they were talking about so didnt write it down but nothing stood out interms of how the levels stayed high anyone else get that bit?
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Did he mention the heart beating for another 10mn ?? I didn't hear that either. I will try to re watch this weekend, because that's really important.

And no, he didn't really address cardio vascular depression, just mentionned it, but did not explain it. Strange ??? I don't know, I would need a medical expert, but if it's out of the picture, then I think self injection is definitely out of the picture as well.
 
OnirMJ said:
I have few questions:

1. Can White come back after dr. Shafer testify again?
2. Can propofol with benzos cause cardiac arrest? And if the person have cardiac arrest, is he still alive (is his heart still beating or how long his heart continues to beat)? If it really was cardiac arrest then is Murray lying that MJ's heart was still beating or is that possible?
3. Are we 100% sure that it was pulmonary and not cardiac arrest? Can coroner make a mistake like that?

Please..
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1 I think only if the pros wants him as witness. otherwise no
2. both and alone can cause cardiac arrest. therefore in OK there is euquipment. Cardiac arrest means no heartpulse. He was in respotary arrest, CM says he felt a pulse
 
OnirMJ said:
I have few questions:

1. Can White come back after dr. Shafer testify again?
2. Can propofol with benzos cause cardiac arrest? And if the person have cardiac arrest, is he still alive (is his heart still beating or how long his heart continues to beat)? If it really was cardiac arrest then is Murray lying that MJ's heart was still beating or is that possible?
3. Are we 100% sure that it was pulmonary and not cardiac arrest? Can coroner make a mistake like that?

Please..
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1 Dr. White can still testify after Dr.Shafer
2 I believe propofol can cause cardiac arrest, don't know about benzo. However, I think propofol is more likely to cause respiratory arrest. Cardiac arrest means your heart stop beating. So if it's cardiac arrest, then Murray is for sure lying since he claimed there was pulse.
3 I don't think Coroner can determine either one. They think MJ stop breathing first base on CM's statement and it's most likely to happen when you sedate people.
 
Ingelief said:
that is true

How come a doc like him, is agreeing with cM?
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I can't wait for cross examination. Hopefully, it will show that no doc can agree with Murray, even if they want to.
 
When they talked about Murray having the qualifications to administer sedation they also read out from a leaflet that it included 'monitoring' - a shot in the foot which I hope doesn't go unnoticed.
 
bouee said:
Did he mention the heart beating for another 10mn ?? I didn't hear that either. I will try to re watch this weekend, because that's really important.

And no, he didn't really address cardio vascular depression, just mentionned it, but did not explain it. Strange ??? I don't know, I would need a medical expert, but if it's out of the picture, then I think self injection is definitely out of the picture as well.
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IF you have resportary arrest, so no breathing, it will take like 7 till 10 min till your hearth stops shafer said.

I found that long but im no doctor. Im only EHBO red cross and certified of AED and CPR
Because if someone is trying to kill you by tjoking *dont know how to spell that* you it doesnt take 10 min right?? (pass out in 2?)
 
Did he mention the heart beating for another 10mn ?? I didn't hear that either. I will try to re watch this weekend, because that's really important.
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i remember hearing him say 10 mins but i dont think he said heart beating. nothing stood out interms of him talking about the concentration levels. which was something i was looking out for. he certainly didnt address anything in relation to mj died straight away which would be mentioned if u were trying to rebute the high levels. maybe they are hoping the jury forget about that important issue. walgren needs to decide whether to bringhte issue up on cross or not for fear of what answer he might give
 
Re need for monitoring eqipment - Actually early on, i thought white showed a report on the screen which showed with low doses of benzos (not sure about prop) that there are no respiratory issues, so presumably no need for monitoring equipment. The whole theme was minimal sedation where patients don't need artificial help to breath. But i agree it was NEVER addressed specifically so it's a weakness walgren can exploit.

Another issue was if you give even a small bolus of prop, one doc said (forget who shaffer or steinberg) said you've got to wake the person up and not let them continue sleeping, which of course murray never did after 10.40.
 
missred07 said:
1 Dr. White can still testify after Dr.Shafer
2 I believe propofol can cause cardiac arrest, don't know about benzo. However, I think propofol is more likely to cause respiratory arrest. Cardiac arrest means your heart stop beating. So if it's cardiac arrest, then Murray is for sure lying since he claimed there was pulse.
3 I don't think Coroner can determine either one. They think MJ stop breathing first base on CM's statement and it's most likely to happen when you sedate people.
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1 No only if pros calls him
 
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