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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

Milka said:
I missed some of the demonstration, from the posts in here I'm not sure ... did White turn off the saline or not?
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I think he didn't in the first demonstration, but I am very nervous... so I might have missed something. Please, clarify...
 
no diprivan found in the IV bag says white. there should be some in that and the chamber and in the long tubing line. there was only diprivan in the short tubing which supports use of a syringe. becasue of that and the bottle not being hung doesnt support an IV being used. (did they test the iv bag that was found in the hidden bag? or is white talking about the IV bag that was left hanging that was used for saline)

infusion chart between 9am and 12 made by shaffer. chart assumes the paitent died at the exact time the bottle became empty. he says theres no reason for someone to stop breathing if you are given a continuas infusion rate. as flanagan asked is there anything that have could have stopped mj breathing at 10am instead of 12.

if he died b4 the infusion finished say at 11 would the infusion keep going? he doesnt think so as the blood stops pumping quite soon. he thinks it would create a reinfusion if the blood stops pumping and would stop the infusion in the sense as the blood isnt pumpting anymore so its not going around the body
 
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I have no idea why the streams are playing up for me today. They usually work fine but they seem to be freezing every 5 seconds today and I have no idea why. I've tried pretty much everything but to no avail, so I appreciate the updates a lot!
 
going on about the urine. dont get what hes saying other than it was a low amout at autopsy. anyone explain??
 
Walgren must point out how White is picking and choosing from Murray's statement to suit is case :

1) Murray said he switch off the saline and White did not in his demonstration;
2) Murray said he left for only 2 mins and it contradict White's claim that it is difficult to draw out propofol;
3) White trying to twist Shafer's word that there should be more lidocane. But as Shafer has said, its most likely there is a bolus therefore the low dosage of lidocane and followed by an infusion.
4) White theory that Murray did not give a drip is because he cannot imaging that Murray is stupid enough not to know about the tab to hook the propofol bottle.


With regards to #4, Walgren should examine all the other 100mg propofol found to see if the tabs are removed. If not, that means Murray is indeed stupid and did not know about the tab further support him cutting the saline bag to hold the propofol bottle.
 
(dr shaffers model is wrong :( )

He is saying:
Urine level isnt correct. So a level of 1000 mg in 3 hours is not possible.
 
Regarding whether you can spike the propofol bottle through the IV port: seems it indeed can be done.

Perhaps he finds the spike is not long enough, so he has to trim off a bit of the IV bag spike port on the outside to poke the spike through again to get enough "reach" for the spike to fit inside the milk bottle. (KZ note: Some IV bags have a different style plug, and no trimming would be required with those bags.)
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bottle%2Bbag%2Bon%2Bclip%2Bboard%2B10.jpg


http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/02/dr-conrad-murrays-death-drip-explained.html
 
saying the diprivan in the urine levels would have been diff from the autopsy result if he had been given a 3 hr infusion as shaffer said. the levels dont match with shaffers claim
 
If I understand this, dr White is just telling us that the consentration fusion of 3-4 hours is not possible because autopsy urine didn't have any or very little pure propofol. So this means CM just pushed in a massive amount of propofol just before MJ died and left the room.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
going on about the urine. dont get what hes saying other than it was a low amout at autopsy. anyone explain??
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This is the debate I had with Soundmind a while ago.
It was argued that although the amount in the blood was very high, the amount in the urine is very small. But the urine in the jar contained Propofol, so that points also to IV. Doctor Shafer will have to work hard over the weekend to demonstrate the rate of elimination of Propofol and to correlate it with the model.
 
I think dr white is doing a great job for the defense :(
he is logic and the jury can by this :(

The urine levels are a extra and they werent used by shaffer.. :(

pls shaffer come back and make this ok
 
popescu said:
this is the debate i had with soundmind a while ago.
It was argued that although the amount in the blood was very high, the amount in the urine is very small. But the urine in the jar contained propofol, so that points also to iv. Doctor shafer will have to work hard over the weekend to demonstrate the rate of elimination of propofol and to correlate it with the model.
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agree

:(
 
So is it not possible that although Murray was giving MJ a Propofol infusion (continuous drip), perhaps when he was busy on phone with his girlz, he turned the drip down......and MJ ended up waking up.....so Murray gave him a BOLUS dose but too much (or injected too quickly)? All the talk about MJ having given himself a bolus.....well wouldn't it make more sense that Murray would have????
 
the elimination of dip in the urine isnt consitant with the 3 hrs infusion theory. so its self injection between 11.30 and 12 says

white slow bolus given by murray when would it ware off? depends on what u mean by waring off. 15 mins max which supports the above.

shaffer said his theory covered all the facts in the case. does it match with murrays statement does it match with the physical evidence at the scene does it match with the urine concentration. no to every answer.

then they go to whites theory and all the evidence matches that

direct is over.

judge sees counsel.. and monday we get to see how good walgren really is. this case could come down to the jury instructions on negligence and whether he self injected is relevent or not in finding him guilty
 
Sue said:
I'm worried.
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your supposed to be after a direct defence witness if they are doing their job. we have been spolied this week that all there witnesses bar white were pointless. every witness should be like white
 
I think all that (so far) is enough for reasonable doubt by the jury. Let's hope the cross goes well next week.
 
Ingelief said:
I think dr white is doing a great job for the defense :(
he is logic and the jury can by this :(

The urine levels are a extra and they werent used by shaffer.. :(

pls shaffer come back and make this ok
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No need to worry yet. The rate of elimination of Propofol is very long (I've looked it up when debating this) and I'm pretty sure that doctor Shafer will produce a graph that shows this.

This witness did not have as much credibility as Shafer, this is my opinion.
 
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