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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

Yes, they need the info from doctor Shafer, this is why prosecution asked for extra time.
 
so in the entire defence case they have done nothing to defend the core of the case ie all the violations of standard of care which is the basis of the negligence charge
 
not good, they are leaving the cross for monday.
It's done for tonight.
 
I hope dr. Shafer will come back monday. This was awful day..
 
elusive moonwalker said:
.. and monday we get to see how good walgren really is. this case could come down to the jury instructions on negligence and whether he self injected is relevent or not in finding him guilty
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I think the relevance comes in with the charge itself of involuntary manslaughter. Murray is being charged with involuntarily murdering MJ. If they can show MJ murdered himself, I guess Murray gets to walk.
 
Sue said:
I think all that (so far) is enough for reasonable doubt by the jury. Let's hope the cross goes well next week.
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resonable doubt for what? that murray didnt significantly contribute to mj deaths by negligence? becasue mj self injecting has nothing to do with that. the defence have done nothing to counter the negligence charge
 
gerryevans said:
I think the relevance comes in with the charge itself of involuntary manslaughter. Murray is being charged with involuntarily murdering MJ. If they can show MJ murdered himself, I guess Murray gets to walk.
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its involuntaary manslaughter not murder. the jury have to find that murray "significanlty contributed to mjs death". the evidence clearly shows that he did..they dont have to show that murray actually physically killed mj
 
MJnun said:
not good, they are leaving the cross for monday.
It's done for tonight.
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NOOO now it will sink in the jury. They will see all weekend this model!

THey should had to cross that?!

EVEN without a new model, ask why at home!
Ask why dont call 911
ASK why lie!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
its involuntaary manslaughter not murder. the jury have to find that murray "significanlty contributed to mjs death". the evidence clearly shows that he did..they dont have to show that murray actually physically killed mj
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Elusive, arent you scared after today that jury can buy dr whites model?????
 
Whether mj self medicated or not, there are hugely negligent acts proven in this case without which mj wouldn't have died
 
The good thing is that the defense & White didn't comment how can propofol level still be high without a drip! If MJ self injected his heart would still beat at least 10 minutes and the propofol level would drop very quickly. Autopsy report, coroner report and Conrad Murray statement said it was pulmonary arrest, not cardiac arrest. The first time the defense came up with cardiac arrest was after dr. Shaffer testified.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
resonable doubt for what? that murray didnt significantly contribute to mj deaths by negligence? becasue mj self injecting has nothing to do with that. the defence have done nothing to counter the negligence charge
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Yes, of course, you are absolutely right. I was being unduly (but characteristically for me) pessimistic and not thinking clearly.

Incidentally, elusive, thank you very much indeed for all the updates you have done. I'm very grateful to you and the other people who have posted such incredibly detailed updates, as I'm sure we all are. They are invaluable.
 
If the low urine level in Mike's urine at autopsy discounts the suggestion that a continuous infusion was given, what will be the suggestion? Murray giving a large bolus himself and then leaving the room?

I wouldn't get too worried yet until the cross-examination is over. Walgren will continue to review this evidence and come back to discredit Dr White. Schaffer will also very likely to be called back in the rebuttal.
 
Elusive, arent you scared after today that jury can buy dr whites model?????
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that how defence witnesses are supposed to be its supposed to look bad. anything looks bad b4 the cross happens. u know what it was like after arvizo testifyed. they are supposed to make it sound bad as they are a defence witness. every single one of the defence witnesses should have been like yet only one was.. white did his job. now its upto walgren in the cross to point out the faults and address any issues in rebutal. and alot will come down to the judges instructions regarding the law
 
the reason why its not reconciled with evidince at the crime scene is becouse Murray had about 25 minutes of chance to "clean up". But I do agree Walgren needs to have some discussions with Schaffer during the weekend.

U can look at the break over the weekend from two angles.

Yes, it might good for the defense to leave the jurors with two days to think about Whites testimony and he was a decently compelling witness.
On the other hand Walgren will now get 2 full days to prepare for the most important cross of the entire case....
 
OnirMJ said:
The good thing is that the defense & White didn't comment how can propofol level still be high without a drip! If MJ self injected his heart would still beat at least 10 minutes and the propofol level would drop very quickly. Autopsy report, coroner report and Conrad Murray statement said it was pulmonary arrest, not cardiac arrest. The first time the defense came up with cardiac arrest was after dr. Shaffer testified.
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yes exactly. i asked if anyone heard white address this in direct as i wanted to make sure i hadnt missed anything. he he didnt address it thats a huge issue.theres no other reason for it other than it coming from a drip
 
On the other hand Walgren will now get 2 full days to prepare for the most important cross of the entire case....
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very true. his entire career
 
Also they never asked mr. White is it safe or is it allowed to administer propofol outside the hospital and without all the monitors! He was talking for two hours how it is safe to do that, but he never said where and how. He always answered the questions like MJ was in the hospital and having surgery!

Walgren should ask him how much MONEY did he get from the defense to testify.
 
Ok elusive thats true

But its well known that the last thing you hear will sink in. So the jury will sink all weekend dr white model in.

Walgren SHOUKD have crossed it, even without a new model prepared. He could have nailed some question right away

He could have asked why at home?
do you think that without equipment its ok to even give a low dose as 25 like your model is saying???

He should have done something, so the jury will go home, with THAT in mind..
not this :(
 
Was flannigan finished? So mj died of an immediate heart attack after injecting this 25mg to allow that prop to remain at a high blood level at time of death - did they explain that, i must have missed it. So they need to completely impeach murray thinking mj still alive with a pulse etc

So mj, after having 16mg of tablet loraz and 4mg iv loraz, managed just at the moment murray left the room to get a syringe, make an air vent, fill it up half prop and half lidocaine injected himself in 2 mins? Unlikely.

The urine levels of prop i don't really know about. But i'm not sure why shaffer's model starts at 9am and goes for 3 hrs. The infusion could start at 10.40 say (to take a time murray gives for introducing prop), as the blood and brain levels go into the sedation range v quickly. The respiratory arrest could happen at any time,1/2/3 hrs during sedation - it could just be the tongue flopping down - it just requires for murray not to be there paying attention and so untreated leads to cardiac arrest at say 11.45. So would 1 hr of prop infusion lead to those low levels in urine?
 
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Dr White :

Flanagan

Free lorazepam in the stomach = oral consumption, it has to be oral consumption. The absortion halflife was taken into account for the simulation.

Dr Shafer's simulation : 50mg propofol, rapid bolus 30s to 60s, iconsitent with CMs iterview, and levels of lidocaine found at autopsy according to Dr Shafer (consistent with 5cc)

Dr Shafer's simulation 100mg , bolus inconsitent with lidocaine , inconsistent with MJ «*anti burn*» request, would burn tremendously in small veins

Multiple self injections 50mg each, inconsistent with lidocaine found at autopsy, would be difficult for MJ, propofol is difficult to draw , Dr White i not sure he would do it himself, defense never claimed that

25mg scenario is less absurd, it's minimal sedation.

25 mg bolus dose over 30 seconds : would a person who is awake be able to do that ? Answer : yes of course.

The blood concentration depends on how fast the injection is done.

Injecting slowly has less effects on cardio vascular and respiratory functions.

Showing the graph with lorazepam, midazolam, 25mg over 3 to 5 mn, and 25mg rapid bolus : 25 bolus concentration goes over the responsive pain lines.

If this bolus was put on tp of the lorazepam femoral blood level : combination could be lethal, would expect to it have very adverse consequences.

Demonstration : fills up a syringe with 5cc saline and 5cc propofol , and demonstrates a 3mn injection.

Dr Shafer's 100ml infusion : inconsistent with CM's interview, you would need an IV system, the handle of the bottle was not used. The bottle in the bag would have been too low, you would have to lower the rate of the saline, it's dangerous. He can't think of a reason not to use the handle, and go to the hassle of cutting the bag with a knife. The bottle could fall if the patients moves, or someone touches the tube. Alberto said there was liquid in the bag, when obviously there was none.

Before pumps became available, you would empty propofol bottle into saline bag. That would be 1mg/ml. 3mg/mil was used in the chinese study. Shows how you do it. If you do that, when the bag is empty you would see the propofol residual on the bag, chamber, Iv tube.

There was no propofol in the bag , no propofol in the long tube.

Thinks there's no evidence that there was an IV, and adds his has other reasons to think that there was no infusion.

Shafer 's simulation of 100ml infusion : coincidence that the patient dies when the bottle runs out. No reason to stop breathing if you breathe during infusion. It would be an incredible coincidence to cough right when the bottle stops (there's a word I didn't understand, I think he meant coughing during anesthesia, and that coughing during anesthesia would cause a problem)

Femoral vein is close to the knee, it's strange to find this concentration so close to injection site, if femoral blood it was taken on the same side as injection site (he doesn't know that, it was not in the coroner's report)

Propofol in the urine do not support 100ml infusion over 3 hours, would expected the urine concentration of unchanged propofol to be much higher (i'm not sure I understood the explanation, I think it was since propofol keeps coming into the system, it goes into the urine), propofol concentration in the urine should have been between 1 to 3, was 0.15

The most consitent scenario is a self injection of 25mg propfol, between 11 30 am and 12 00pm, based on urine levels. (Firefox froze, i didn't see the chart he was showing)

25mg over 3 to 5 mn, sleep would last 10mn , exluding any other medication. Here there was lorazepam and midazolam as well.

Dr Shafer 's scenarios don't reconcile with CM's statement , evidence at the scene, urine concentration

The scenario that was given to dr White reconciles with CM statement (except for self injection, since CM didn't think MJ had self injected), with evidence at the scene, and urine concentration.

Recess until monday morning 9 am
 
But its well known that the last thing you hear will sink in. So the jury will sink all weekend dr white model in.
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thecase is not over yet. you have cross then rebuttal which is all prosecution then closing statements
 
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