Observations

jilliebean

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Just little things that have stood out to me that I think are strange, or maybe important, nothing big really, but I wanted to share.

1. In the bodyguards statement to investigators (if what I read was real) he claimed that Dr. Murray told him to clean up or hid medication, or an empty bottle or something, before calling 911. Well does that seem odd to you? Not that the doctor asked, but that the body guard would listen. I was thinking about this and if it were me I would have immediately dialed 911, and then if the doctor was not doing anything to help Michael I would have kicked his (you know what) because that is what I was hired to do..protect Michael.

2. The other thing, is that the ambulance never bothered to turn around so they could make a speedy exit from the house. Different things I've read make it sound as if paramedics were there for a while, I would think that if Michael was a live or they thought he had any chance they would have turned around so they didn't take all that time backing out of that drive way!

I've been trying not to spend too much time thinking about all this because it makes me sad, but these things just struck me as odd, so I thought I would share.
 
jilliebean, for the second oberservation, Michael wasn't alive. Paramedics knew it, so don't blame them. But Murray's an ass for not wanting to call death right there.

As for your first observation, VERY good points brought up. That's going on my list of things that should be answered in court.
 
for number one

we don't know what the bodyguard knew at that moment. He might not have realized that Michael was dead (or dying) and needed immediate help.He also might have thought that those were illegal drugs and collecting and hiding them before calling the authorities was in best interest of Michael.

The important thing was that when he realized that it was asked by Murray to protect only Murray he went and told it to the authorities.
 
for number one

we don't know what the bodyguard knew at that moment. He might not have realized that Michael was dead (or dying) and needed immediate help.He also might have thought that those were illegal drugs and collecting and hiding them before calling the authorities was in best interest of Michael.

What? I just find it plain suspicious.

First of all, he sees Murray doing CPR on Michael......SO THERE IS NO WAY HE MIGHT NOT HAVE REALIZED THAT MICHAEL WAS IN CRITICAL HEALTH. Because you only do CPR when someone IS in critical health or about to die.

And like Jilliebean said, as Michael's bodyguard, his MAIN FOCUS it so be on Michael and Making sure he's okay. It doesn't even matter if he "thought those bottles were illegal drugs". He just saw Murray giving Michael CPR. Something was obviously wrong with Michael. Not for one second should he have stopped to worry about some damn bottles over Michael's life.

And if they called authorities before hiding the drugs. What would it matter? The "illegal drugs" will be easy to detect in Michael anyways.

The first thing he should have done was make Murray keep working on Michael. They hadn't even called police yet at that point. And the doctor probably wouldn't take it in his own hands to cover up Michael's "illegal drugs". That would be Michael's fault. Not his.

I think that the BEST INTEREST of Michael would have been to TRY AND SAVE HIS ASS FIRST!!!
 
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^^ I agree with you. Your first thought would be to call 911. He is a bodyguard after all. He must be instructed how to react in emergency situations, when his client is in danger. Hope we'll know what happened that morning.
 
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to me it is obvious from all of the evidence that we have that Michael was gone longgggg before the bodyguard ever entered his room. I think he knew it too upon entering and seeing Michael. But yeah I agree I think he thought he may of been doing a favor by hiding things.
 
First of all, he sees Murray doing CPR on Michael......SO THERE IS NO WAY HE MIGHT NOT HAVE REALIZED THAT MICHAEL WAS IN CRITICAL HEALTH. Because you only do CPR when someone IS in critical health or about to die.

true but like you said he might have thought that he was in critical condition but not dead.

And the doctor probably wouldn't take it in his own hands to cover up Michael's "illegal drugs". That would be Michael's fault. Not his.

if he was the one that was providing them then he would want to cover it up.

And if they called authorities before hiding the drugs. What would it matter? The "illegal drugs" will be easy to detect in Michael anyways.

now that depends.

first of all not all drugs will remain in your system for a long time , some might become not traceable after 20 minutes while some might be traceable in hair for 6 months.

secondly whether they would look for drugs in anybody's system will depend on the situation. sure in an autopsy they do a detailed check but for example if Michael was in coma and saved at the hospital they would only run the necessary blood tests and not do the full drug check

I once again say it depends on what the bodyguard thought and knew in that moment. He might have thought that Michael was in a critical condition/coma but could be saved and hiding the drugs could spare him media reports, possession charges etc. We have seen in the media how they try so hard to portray MJ as an addict; the bodyguard might have thought he was doing a favor.

but later on it was obvious that it wasn't a case of illegal drugs and what Murray asked him to do wasn't for the benefit of Michael. It was Murray trying to save himself and the bodyguard realized this and came forward.

and this to me it's not a small thing - like you said if he absolutely knew what was happening and yet hid the drugs without helping Michael first, he could have been charged as an accessory after the fact and that would give him incentive to not to talk or tell those events to the cops.
 
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jilliebean, for the second oberservation, Michael wasn't alive. Paramedics knew it, so don't blame them. But Murray's an ass for not wanting to call death right there.
They didn't know that upon arrival! I don't know how things work in LA, but were I live the driver of the rescue vehicle always park the car in the best way to make a speedy exit, while the other paramedics begin working on the patient.

By the way, shouldn't the body guard be trained in CPR? He should have reacted when seeing Murray administer it on the bed!
 
What? I just find it plain suspicious.

First of all, he sees Murray doing CPR on Michael......SO THERE IS NO WAY HE MIGHT NOT HAVE REALIZED THAT MICHAEL WAS IN CRITICAL HEALTH. Because you only do CPR when someone IS in critical health or about to die.

And like Jilliebean said, as Michael's bodyguard, his MAIN FOCUS it so be on Michael and Making sure he's okay. It doesn't even matter if he "thought those bottles were illegal drugs". He just saw Murray giving Michael CPR. Something was obviously wrong with Michael. Not for one second should he have stopped to worry about some damn bottles over Michael's life.

And if they called authorities before hiding the drugs. What would it matter? The "illegal drugs" will be easy to detect in Michael anyways.

The first thing he should have done was make Murray keep working on Michael. They hadn't even called police yet at that point. And the doctor probably wouldn't take it in his own hands to cover up Michael's "illegal drugs". That would be Michael's fault. Not his.

I think that the BEST INTEREST of Michael would have been to TRY AND SAVE HIS ASS FIRST!!!

This is the same body guard that said he saw Michael with his eye and mouth open and not moving, with his arms spread wide on the bed. He HAD to know something was pretty seriously wrong! It doesn't make sense that he listened to Murray instead of taking care of his boss. Or was Michael his boss at that point?
 
:unsure:

Confusion and our brains are doing somersaults trying to discover what happened. For me, this story is like a big Swiss cheese, full of holes. For me, it's still very difficult to know with 1000% certainty the order of facts that occurred in Michael's house on June 25 and principally believe completely about what all these people who were close to Michael are saying. I still can not give much credibility to them. I can not! There are many dirt and lies in this story. :doh:

I hope that the truth appears. :timer: I ask God every day. :pray:
 
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if you please Jelle bean , I myself has another observation, and i wish that it is Ok to share them in your thread.

1- why Randy Phillips and Frank Dileo did not scream when they arrived to the hospital" where is his doctor , where is Murray , what happened to Michael , where were u last night and all these questions ??? Latoya who did not know about the exsictance of Murray asked him all these questions !
2- they were silent infront of the door waiting for the doctors to announce MJ's death as if this is something they expected, no one of them said , i was praying i was very anxious i was worried ,,,,, all what they said was we were waiting !

3- Murray did not leave the hospital until he made sure to hear the news of MJ's death himself, why he did not leave earlier,,,, he could not move auntil he was sure that MJ is not gonna comeback !

4- when Murray said that he was hungry after hearing the news is no lie, because it sounds like the student who feels hungry after finishing the exam or like getting out of a long meeting or after a busy day at work...when u finish you mission u feel hungry...
Do u think that he really was satisfied to finish his mission and unconsciouslyhe was going to reward himself with a good meal !

5- how suddenly Tohme came out of no where with Delio, Philips, Jermaine,,,u know ! why he found himself in charge to talk in the name of MJ , who allowed him to do so and who asked him to come , or was he prepared for this task in the first place ?
 
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those are some important points also.

For your fourth point, I have to say though that the man probably hadn't eaten lunch, and people's appetites kick in at different times of the day. And he asked Alberto or Michael Amir Williams, or both, to take him over to the house to get his car. But according to reports, both of them made up the story that police had taken Murray's keys so it was no use.

What I would like to know is did police REALLY take Murray's keys? They wouldn't because at that point no foul play was expected. It wasn't a homicide scene. So I'd like to know why Alberto and Michael Amir Williams didn't want Murray back at the house. Or they could've really thought it just "wasn't a good idea" for Murray to go back as was reported. I find that understandable.

This is the same body guard that said he saw Michael with his eye and mouth open and not moving, with his arms spread wide on the bed. He HAD to know something was pretty seriously wrong! It doesn't make sense that he listened to Murray instead of taking care of his boss. Or was Michael his boss at that point?

WHAT??? I heard of that, but I never heard of Alberto saying that.

Can you please post a link where he said that?
 
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:unsure:

Confusion and our brains are doing somersaults trying to discover what happened. For me, this story is like a big Swiss cheese, full of holes. For me, it's still very difficult to know with 1000% certainty the order of facts that occurred in Michael's house on June 25 and principally believe completely about what all these people who were close to Michael are saying. I still can not give much credibility to them. I can not! There are many dirt and lies in this story. :doh:

I hope that the truth appears. :timer: I ask God every day. :pray:

I pray every day too for the truth.
 
^^ I agree with you. Your first thought would be to call 911. He is a bodyguard after all. He must be instructed how to react in emergency situations, when his client is in danger. Hope we'll know what happened that morning.


Alvarez called Joe & Joe screamed at him to call 911. Not clear if he called Joe after the 911 call or before. Maybe he was not well trained.
 
Alvarez called Joe & Joe screamed at him to call 911. Not clear if he called Joe after the 911 call or before. Maybe he was not well trained.

I never heard that. Where did you hear that?
 
I never heard that. Where did you hear that?

Kasume, here's the links. I think I read somewhere later that Tippy was Alberto Alvarez. It is in the timeline at kopboard, but did not find here. I might have missed it as I skimmed really quick. I find it especially interesting that he called Joe. I think Alvarez knows alot. Joe has said in the Bild interviews that he called the police a week before about MJ. Leiweke of AEG is good friends of the police chief of LA at that time & I bet that he was told.

this article does have the security guard Tippy calling Joe & him screaming to call 911, same as ABC article - does not give a definite time, just 11:35-12:20 - but I'm sure the police have that time pinned down.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/66888

As Dr. Murray worked on the stricken pop star, the N.Y. Post said Tippy placed a call to the singer's father Joe in Las Vegas, who "screamed" at them to call for help. The U.K. Mirror quoted a source as saying over this time Jackson's heart beat became "slower and slower," and Dr. Murray may have hooked Jackson up to a heart monitor. Various reports say Dr. Murray gave Jackson an injection of Lidocaine, a drug designed to return a regular heartbeat.


Also this article:

In Defense of Joe Jackson
OPINION
By RUTT PREMSRIRUT7/1/09, 6:33 PM EDTA friend of Michael Jackson's father defends the much maligned patriarch.
A close personal friend of Michael Jackson's embattled father has come forward to ABC News' "Good Morning America" to defend Joe Jackson against claims that the elder Jackson is exploiting his son's untimely death.

Joe Jackson has endured widespread criticism in the press in recent days for everything from alleged abuse of his sons early on in their career to self-promotion at the BET awards just days after his son's death, and for aggressively seeking to gain control of the singer's sprawling empire in the immediate aftermath of his son's death.

Jackson, who is separated from his wife, Katherine Jackson, was left out of the singer's will. On Wednesday, the Jackson family hired Ken Sunshine, a veteran New York-based public relations professional.

In a statement to ABC News authorized by Joe Jackson, Rutt Premsrirut, his close friend of many years, seeks to paint the celebrity patriarch in a decidedly different light -- as a dedicated father who has steered one of America's most famous families through decades of triumphs and tragedies.

This is a response to the negative media coverage that Mr. Joseph Jackson, father of the late Michael Joseph Jackson has been receiving recently.

To quote the late Michael Joseph Jackson in his autobiographical book "Moonwalker": "Before you judge someone, walk two full moons with them." Mr. Joseph Jackson, known to us privately as "Joe," has always been the man of steel, the go-to person during times of crisis. He deals with situations from a point of equanimity. Continuously compartmentalizing his inner emotions has become an everyday activity.

When his dear mother and father passed away, he never shed a tear. "I internalize my emotions, but they eat up on the inside over the years." This has made him very effective during times of crisis. Each time he would rise to the occasion and function at the highest levels.

When Michael Jackson collapsed at 11:30 [a.m. PT June 25], the security guard's first instinct was to call Joe in Las Vegas to find out what to do. Joe screamed into the phone, "Get yourself together and call 911, now now now !!!" That was him in action, no emotion.


In 2003, as an arrest warrant was issued for Michael, we were all curled up behind the gates of the CMX Entertainment complex in Las Vegas with no idea what to do. When Joe walked in, you would see Michael's eyes light up. He was running the show with Michael listening to every word Joe was directing. I recall the family friend, actor/comedian Eddie Griffin, saying, "You could tell, it was Papa Joe in charge! He made Michael feel so secure. He dumped the weight off his shoulders on his father Joe. As he knew that Joe was ready for war." Michael repeatedly asked Joe, "What do I do?" There was no one more capable to handle the crisis than Joe. He is like a professional billiard player; thinking two or three steps ahead.

During the trial, with everyone focused on the court proceedings, Joe went from door to door in Santa Barbara, knocking on strangers' doors introducing himself, meeting as many locals as he could. He struggled to get the community on his son's side. He had dinner with people in the community, brought signed Jackson memorabilia as gifts, and did his best to get to know them on a personal basis. He knew too well that legal court proceedings are not decided only in the court room but also in the court of public opinion. Now most PR firms would be thinking of a national or international campaign. But for this trial, the public opinion that mattered most was a very small community in Santa Barbara.

Many people questioned why Joe needed a lawyer during his son's trial. Even his family questioned his judgment and [they] were upset. It was only later that some realized the wisdom behind his actions. Not only Michael's lawyers but the whole prosecution side were under a gag order not to talk at all. Joe's lawyer was attending everything and maximizing the media outlet for Michael's interests. Joe was always willing to go to war to protect Michael and his family.

The media are disturbed that Joe once again has brought Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton into the Jackson family. To refresh the memory of the media, during the trial they were also around. Joe called it his "Plan B." Not only do they provide spiritual support and confidence but they were and are his political weight. Few remember the verbal attacks on Tom Sneddon by Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, the large community rallies they organized, or the r@#%$ stuff they dug up on Sneddon. Jesse Jackson sits on the board of Yucalpa ( A $12 billion private equity firm of Ron Burkle). He also sits on the board of Sony /ATV catalog representing Michael's interests.


Keeping his emotions inside has taken its toll on Joe. The last few years have seen him visit the hospital frequently. He began to distance himself slowly from his son's problems. He knows he is up in age. "At 80, I can only do so much".

The day Michael died, for the first time in years, he said nothing, became sad, then angry, then began leading once again. His finest hour.

The media commented negatively to the trucks going to Michael's L.A. home. Joe's reply, "If the media will pick up the $100,000-per-month rent, due next month, I will very gladly leave the stuff there." That is Joe dealing with reality.

Before getting to Don Lemon of CNN on the BET red carpet he had done several interviews and was simply looking forward to watching the show. To avoid speaking, he made sure to have along with him Michael Jackson's lawyer Londel McMillan, his longtime publicist Angel Howanksy and his longtime friend Marshall from the musical group "The Charlights." As the CNN reporter kept bringing up questions on Michael and the family, you could see Joe became uncomfortable. He began giving one-word answers, then struggled to change the subject and brought up his publicist to read a statement. As that did not work, he finally tried to push the spotlight on his friend Marshall with the record label story.

As usual the press turned it around to claim he is all business. He might be old, but if ever in a crisis there is no one better than Mr. Joseph Jackson on your side. The man of steel may never show his emotions on the outside, but neither did Napoleon during the moment of truth.

What about Joe being left out of Michael Jackson's will! Why leave a will to an 80-year-old father who will leave it further to the grand kids and you end up paying twice the inheritance tax! Michael knew Joe was a risk taker. Joe would bet the farm. He has lost millions of dollars in the past on bad investments but it is the same risk-taking of going for the jugglers that got the Jacksons where they are. Back in Gary, Ind., after discovering his kids' talents, he quit his job at the steel mill, spent his whole life savings on the best musical instruments he could buy. His wife was very upset, but he told her, "Don't worry, we are going to make it". With no other source of income, other than a few club performances, he knew he had to succeed. Many forget that Gary, Ind. is one of the poorest cities in the whole country. To raise nine black kids out of poverty to superstardom with class is worthy of respect. It was a trade with the odds against him, but it was a trade of a lifetime.


Kubler-Ross analyzed the five stages of dealing with death: denial and isolation, anger, bargaining, depression and finally acceptance. When asked yesterday if he wanted to go and see his son's body, he replied, "NO!!!!, I will not be able to sleep and the emotions will catch up on me. No, no, no no, no!! And he hung up the phone."

Wise men think twice and then say nothing. Those who know do not talk and those who have no idea run to the media to gain fame. When I called up to tell him about all the negative stuff in the press about the record label, he gave me a his most unique line of old, "At least they have not forgotten about us ..." and in his sadness, he laughed.
http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=7981589&pid=248
 
this article does have the security guard Tippy calling Joe & him screaming to call 911, same as ABC article - does not give a definite time, just 11:35-12:20 - but I'm sure the police have that time pinned down.

When Michael Jackson collapsed at 11:30 [a.m. PT June 25], the security guard's first instinct was to call Joe in Las Vegas to find out what to do. Joe screamed into the phone, "Get yourself together and call 911, now now now !!!" That was him in action, no emotion.

Thank you for sharing that.

I think it was around 12:20 when he called Joe because in various reports, Alvarez was in the security trailer when at 12:17, his phone rang and it was Amir Williams telling him Michael was in trouble.

I also read a report saying that Alvarez was "frozen and stunned" when he saw Michael on the bed. That fits with him seeing Michael's eyes and mouth open etc.
 
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Hi, I had surgery on Tues. and this is my first chance back to the board. I just wanted to share those things, because sometimes it's the smallest details that make the picture clear. It is very hard for us, because we don't always know if what we are hearing is the truth or not.

I think it is important for us to be observant especially with the things we see with our own eyes. That is why I commented on the ambulance. I know most people seem to think Michael was already gone, but doesn't Dr. Murray say other wise? Aren't there also reports of him having a pulse at the hospital? It's so confusing and overwhelming.

I hope that his children know the truth, or will know the truth someday even if we do not.
 
jilliebean, for the second oberservation, Michael wasn't alive. Paramedics knew it, so don't blame them. But Murray's an ass for not wanting to call death right there.

I wasn't blaming them, I just wondered if that is enough to prove Michael was gone even if Murray says other wise.
 
Thanks for the articles, jrsfan...it's interesting indeed that he called Joe.
 
I have four observations.

1. Meaning of Thome's appearance at Jermain's announcement. Someone who works at UCLA comes up to introduce Jermaine. A couple seconds later, Thome comes up to introduce Jermaine again. Why did Thome come up to introduce Jermaine when he's already been introduced a couple seconds ago?

2. ONLY thing we know about Thome's life is he is someone NEW in the entertainment business that has come in to be in charge of everything in Michael's life. Now that Michael is not here, what is he doing now in the entertainment business? Is he still looking over Michael's affairs even though he was fired long ago? Is he representing anyone else in the entertainment world now? If not, did he just enter this business for Michael and only Michael?

3. Was security really trippled? How come they didn't rush upstairs to help themselves? How come no one asked them to help? Only two security were asked to help. Why is there no info on the whearabouts of the extra security on that day? Who started this story anyways that security had been trippled?

Come trial, if we don't hear anything for extra security, would it be possible that someone made up the "extra security" as a red herring?

4. Michael's bodyguard, Alberto Alvarez, is a man with a criminal record of domestic violence just like Murray. Is it just a coincidence? Who hired Alberto Alvarez? Both of these guys with the same record of domestic violence hold off on the importance of Michael's life by a number of reasons, going to the restroom, placing vials in a bag, and just standing there shocked and not doing anything (Alberto). As for Faheem Muhammad, he rushes into the room during the 911 call and begins giving Michael CPR immediately.
 
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exactly, i do not found any reliable source aout the extra security !
Alerto was working with MJ for years even before 2005 and he still with MJ till the end,,,he is the one who voulintiarly told the police then the press about what hapened in the room with Murray.maybe he was asked to check in the room but had no clue what Murray actually told Amir. i only think " not sure" that Alberto is not a bad guy , he made a misake but unintentionaly ! it's been a year and he said he found difficulity to sleep becuse of what happened in font of his yes, he feels that Murray fooled him !
 
I have four observations.

1. Meaning of Thome's appearance at Jermain's announcement. Someone who works at UCLA comes up to introduce Jermaine. A couple seconds later, Thome comes up to introduce Jermaine again. Why did Thome come up to introduce Jermaine when he's already been introduced a couple seconds ago?

2. ONLY thing we know about Thome's life is he is someone NEW in the entertainment business that has come in to be in charge of everything in Michael's life. Now that Michael is not here, what is he doing now in the entertainment business? Is he still looking over Michael's affairs even though he was fired long ago? Is he representing anyone else in the entertainment world now? If not, did he just enter this business for Michael and only Michael?

3. Was security really trippled? How come they didn't rush upstairs to help themselves? How come no one asked them to help? Only two security were asked to help. Why is there no info on the whearabouts of the extra security on that day? Who started this story anyways that security had been trippled?

Come trial, if we don't hear anything for extra security, would it be possible that someone made up the "extra security" as a red herring?

4. Michael's bodyguard, Alberto Alvarez, is a man with a criminal record of domestic violence just like Murray. Is it just a coincidence? Who hired Alberto Alvarez? Both of these guys with the same record of domestic violence hold off on the importance of Michael's life by a number of reasons, going to the restroom, placing vials in a bag, and just standing there shocked and not doing anything (Alberto). As for Faheem Muhammad, he rushes into the room during the 911 call and begins giving Michael CPR immediately.


I believe the report about the extra security came from the follower fans observations. Perhaps someone has a different memory.
 
I believe the report about the extra security came from the follower fans observations. Perhaps someone has a different memory.

I sort of remember that information coming from the follower fans, too.
 
I sort of remember that information coming from the follower fans, too.

......I see. Thanks guys for telling me.

Since Michael is not here, this seems like a question for Michael Amir Williams.
 
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^^I was thinking that the Follower Fans had noted the extra security as well. And I do wonder sometimes what else did the FF's see in the days before MJ's death that they might not even realize was important. People that may have come and gone from MJ's house? Anything out of the ordinary that they hadn't noticed any other time? Stuff like that. They were there a lot, right? Just seems like they could have seen something or someone that may have been important, and maybe they don't even realize it. Just a possibility.
 
I remember reading about the fans outside his house that night before. But I didn't take notes cause I wasn't investigating as much then. Probably wasn't anything too important if I don't remember though.

Who exactly stated this extra security? Was it a group of them who noticed? Was it just one person? Did is spread from one person to various people? How did they realize there were extra security? Were the guards outside? Did the fans go inside the gates or house?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&feature=related
Who is the guy in front of the camera? He's not Eric Muhammad, Faheem Muhammad, or Alberto. Is he the chief Michael Amir Williams, if not, then I guess he's an extra security. I've looked up Michael Amir Williams but there's no picture of what he looks like.
 
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there was a group of FF outside Michael's house that night and they stated after the fact that there was extra security.
 
...just standing there shocked and not doing anything (Alberto). As for Faheem Muhammad, he rushes into the room during the 911 call and begins giving Michael CPR immediately.

Unfortunately, this whole "standing around shocked" reaction is all too common. I remember "walking in" on a group of fly looking bankers in beautiful suits- all leaning over a guy on the floor with foam around his mouth, obviously in trouble. And these are guys that handle the millions of other people- yet they were all to busy scratching their heads, wondering what to do. I had to literally scream to get 911 going.

Some people kick into gear earlier under stress, other people just lose themselves in OMG OMG OMG.

In that situation I am not surprised that the bodyguard just did what he was told to do, he might have been "trained" to follow orders of someone with presumed "higher authority". Don't know.

However, it shows more than clearly that Murray knew what he was doing and that's the really creepy part.
 
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