Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[#MJforever57]

This is IMO

Guys i am going with Joey Jackson on this from HLN. He believe AEG is liable even though AEG got Debbie to say that Michael use Propofol in the past he said it also show that AEG knew Michael had a problem with drugs in the past.


In Debbie testmony Tues. she said that no one came into the room that not true how do you think all of that equipments got up there it was brought in by the secrity so others ppls knew what was going on.


Well cross didn't take long. IMO it look like AEG help the Jacksons today with Debbie testity today.
Maybe that smile that was on the Jacksons lawyer face yeserday maybe he knew?


I know Debbie is glad this is over.

 

[#MJforever57]

In my opinion, Debbie contradicted herself a bit during today's testimony.

I think she did too.

 

[crillon]

This is IMO

Guys i am going with Joey Jackson on this from HLN. He believe AEG is liable even though AEG got Debbie to say that Michael use Propofol in the past he said it also show that AEG knew Michael had a problem with drugs in the past.

How does it show "AEG knew"? I think HLN's Joey Jackson is wishful thinking because nowhere in Debbie's testimony did she say she told AEG about drugs and/or propofol use.

Well cross didn't take long. IMO it look like AEG help the Jacksons today with Debbie testity today.
Maybe that smile that was on the Jacksons lawyer face yeserday maybe he knew?


I know Debbie is glad this is over.

I don't see how characterizing Michael as having drug issues--that were secret--helps the Jackson side. It seems that the more they try to establish that Michael had a lifelong issue, the more they are making the case that AEG was simply in the unfortunate circumstance of being the ones working with him when he died.

 

[LastTear]

This is IMO

Guys i am going with Joey Jackson on this from HLN. He believe AEG is liable even though AEG got Debbie to say that Michael use Propofol in the past he said it also show that AEG knew Michael had a problem with drugs in the past.


In Debbie testmony Tues. she said that no one came into the room that not true how do you think all of that equipments got up there it was brought in by the secrity so others ppls knew what was going on.


Well cross didn't take long. IMO it look like AEG help the Jacksons today with Debbie testity today.
Maybe that smile that was on the Jacksons lawyer face yeserday maybe he knew?


I know Debbie is glad this is over.

Do you have a link?

 

[Petrarose]

Anyone understand why they gave Michael a number of scalp surgeries just before he embarked on a tour? I don't understand why this was not done a year before the tour started. This caused him to be battling touring sleeplessness & pain at the same time. This is a lot for any human to endure.

My other puzzle is that according to Rowe, she and Mertzer began a regiment for Michael. Rowe did not go on the tour & during the tour Michael gets this doctor who gives him demerol for the pain. Now Michael had money, why didn't anyone of them think of hiring a nurse or some such person to continue the regiment? This is a big problem I have with all the doctors who treated Michel for pain or dependency. None of them had some plan that was workable.

Michael gets burned and gets 2 million which he gives away, and the treatment to regraph, stretch the skin, work on the scarring, work on the hair loss all cost much, much more than 2 million.

He is burned & gets addictive drugs and no one sets up a plan for that. Debbie & Mertzer sets up a treatment which is working nicely & they appear clueless about arranging personnel to continue the regiment during the tour. Then, he is given a private reharb and again there is no plan for handling triggers like in NYC. Worse Frank calls the family to talk to him, which is one of his triggers. When you look at all the mistakes made, and realized it was done by professional doctors who billed hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is really a shame and disgrace.

 

[ilmjj]

I am so glad Debbie talked about Michael having lupus. I hope people talk more about this because I don't think a lot of people even knew he had lupus. Autoimmune diseases are serious and Michael had 2...vitiligo and lupus. I just wish the media would give the poor guy a break because he was really suffering and I dare them to live their lives the same way he had to live his and do any better!

 

[That Other Fan]

Don't you see a difference between close friends, family and outside people? For example does your online friends know everything about you? How about co workers? Just because Michael's ex-wife knew about some problems doesn't necessarily mean a producer would know his problems.

That being said Debbie's testimony humanizes Michael. I don't think AEG at any point tried to portray Michael as a high seeking addict, they only wanted to portray him as Propofol and Murray's treatment was his choice and they weren't prompted by anything AEG did.

AEG suspected it though. They didn't know the specifics, which is understandable, but they suspected it. They simply suspected Klein and not Murray, but they did suspect it, so the "we couldn't possibly have known" stance goes out the window.

The are trying to create the narrative that he was "secretive addict" that was searching for doctors that would give him what he wanted and murray was just another doctor doing what MJ wanted. They are trying to portray that he was playing a game of russian roulette for years and finally lost.

Debbie's testimony goes against that. He did develop dependencies, but he wasn't doctor shopping. He simply trusted these doctors. She even goes so far to say the doctors were giving him drugs in an attempt to outdo the other. They wanted Michael to themselves. They were fighting for the role the "main doctor" in his life.

That makes him sympathetic. That's a blow to AEG's strategy.

 

[Big Apple2]

Debbie said "I didn't sign on to be a Mother."

Now was that really necessary! She will NEVER get Prince back into the fold with talk like that, in my opinion.

 

[#MJforever57]

Do you have a link?

Here you go.

http://www.hlntv.com/

It is a news station that i watch a cable. Their keep you updated on news that is happen now Just like the trial AEG vs The Jacksons.

It is also part of CNN.

 

[#MJforever57]

I agree with that Debbie's testimony humanizes Michael today yes it did

 

[twinklEE]

delete

 

[twinklEE]

Debbie said "I didn't sign on to be a Mother."

Now was that really necessary! She will NEVER get Prince back into the fold with talk like that, in my opinion.

I was sad to to read that her stance still doesn't seem to have changed on this particular issue. Wonder how her children feel about this, especially the girl who was on the verge of taking her life 2 months ago.
Someone said earlier that she still doesn't want to be a mother and sadly I'm feeling the same way. Michael was the mother and father to those children, he was all they ever needed.

I also feel she contradicted herself today Big Apple.

 

[susna]

Anyone understand why they gave Michael a number of scalp surgeries just before he embarked on a tour? I don't understand why this was not done a year before the tour started. This caused him to be battling touring sleeplessness & pain at the same time. This is a lot for any human to endure.

Agree totally why sacrifice him. He needed enough rest.

 

[jamba]

AEG suspected it though. They didn't know the specifics, which is understandable, but they suspected it. They simply suspected Klein and not Murray, but they did suspect it, so the "we couldn't possibly have known" stance goes out the window.

The are trying to create the narrative that he was "secretive addict" that was searching for doctors that would give him what he wanted and murray was just another doctor doing what MJ wanted. They are trying to portray that he was playing a game of russian roulette for years and finally lost.

Debbie's testimony goes against that. He did develop dependencies, but he wasn't doctor shopping. He simply trusted these doctors. She even goes so far to say the doctors were giving him drugs in an attempt to outdo the other. They wanted Michael to themselves. They were fighting for the role the "main doctor" in his life.

That makes him sympathetic. That's a blow to AEG's strategy.

Really disagree this is their strategy to make him unsympathetic. The other point is that if they suspected Klein, how does that mean they are guilty of hiring, etc CM--what has CM to do with Klein--and what does 'suspecting' have to do with 'knowing'? NO ONE ever suspected MJ was getting nightly propofol--it was a shock to the WORLD, including a shock to AEG. There is no evidence whatsoever that they 'knew' about 60 days of propofol in a locked bedroom at 100 Carolwood.

If they suspected Klein, that does not follow that they suspected CM--also their suspicion re Klein had to be verified. You can't say I suspect this or that as a company and then take drastic action involving that individual, let alone a completely unrelated person. This is like jumping the gun--going out and beating someone up who is with your partner b/c you 'suspect' they are having an affair, etc.

I don't think either they are painting the Russian Roulette scenario either--they are saying there was past use of propofol related to insomnia and medical procedures, but that they were not aware of it until they were forced to do extensive research due to the lawsuit.

Basically, IMO Jacksons have to show direct and unequivocal knowledge of prior, but safe propofol use by AEG execs (RP and PG) and its being used again in wildly unsafe ways by CM.

 

[Vici]

Debbie said "I didn't sign on to be a Mother."

Now was that really necessary! She will NEVER get Prince back into the fold with talk like that, in my opinion.

Really? She said that (again)? What an insensitive stance considering she has re-connected with Paris. I thought that her and Paris new relation would make her feel different. On social media she is always very firm that "she is their mother and the kids are her babies".

Poor Paris, I bet she seeked out Debbie to fill a void after MJ. Paris needs to feel loved.

Did Debbie perhaps say that to show that MJ was the only parent the kids knew... meaning it goes with claim of loss.

 

[crillon]

AEG suspected it though. They didn't know the specifics, which is understandable, but they suspected it. They simply suspected Klein and not Murray, but they did suspect it, so the "we couldn't possibly have known" stance goes out the window.

Nothing in the testimony supports AEG knowledge of propofol, only that when Michael went to Klein, he was not himself and appeared to be groggy (understandable if he's getting medical procedures done). I don't recall (correct me, if I'm wrong) seeing one email exchange in which AEG execs were discussing their suspicions about drugs. The jury cannot read minds, as we're doing here, and they will have to rely on the testimony alone.

The are trying to create the narrative that he was "secretive addict" that was searching for doctors that would give him what he wanted and murray was just another doctor doing what MJ wanted. They are trying to portray that he was playing a game of russian roulette for years and finally lost.

Debbie's testimony goes against that. He did develop dependencies, but he wasn't doctor shopping. He simply trusted these doctors. She even goes so far to say the doctors were giving him drugs in an attempt to outdo the other. They wanted Michael to themselves. They were fighting for the role the "main doctor" in his life.

That makes him sympathetic. That's a blow to AEG's strategy.

He may not have been "doctor-shopping" for Demerol, but propofol is another story and we all know it. Michael thought--likely because a doctor recommended it--that he needed it to sleep and he looked for a doctor to go on tour with him (as Ratner had done) to administer it. That did not just happen with Murray and Debbie's testimony underscores that.

While Debbie does portray Michael sympathetically (and rightfully so), she does give a balanced view. The piece AEG needed from her was the testimony about propofol and they got it.

 

[marebear]

I think she wants be like Prince and Paris's friend. Someone they can talk to when they need to. Just like with Michael. It's clear she doesn't want to be the "mom" kind of role. Maybe that's why Prince keeps a distance because he gets that.

 

[Ashtanga]

That shit trial should not be happening!!! errin: uke:

********************************************************************





By LunaJo

Dr. Forecast, mentioned in Debbie Rowe's testimony, is mentioned in this article!

[youtube]JCV0mcBpWjU[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JCV0mcBpWjU

:fear:

 

[Vici]

I don't recall (correct me, if I'm wrong) seeing one email exchange in which AEG execs were discussing their suspicions about drugs.

Randy Phillips wrote an email saying something like "Klein is freaking me out, he is shooting up MJ with something".

Frank Dileo calling Murray and asking for a blood test on MJ.

Branca in that mailconversation where he asks them (AEG) "if the issue is chemical or not".

I know Dileo and Branca are not AEG exces but it seems as there were suspicion of drugs.

 

[susna]

In my opinion, Debbie contradicted herself a bit during today's testimony.

Agree. Rowe said the last time she saw Michael was in 2003, she said it was in 1999 during her testimony in2005 trial.

From 2005 trial

''26 Q. When was the last time you had talked with
27 Michael Jackson?
28 A. The day of our divorce. 7940
And how long prior to that, to this
2 conversation you’re now referring to, was that day
3 of your divorce?
4 A. October 12th.
5 Q. Of what year, please?
6 A. .99.''

''Q. When was the last time you had been to
11 Neverland?
12 A. Years. I couldn’t tell you. Probably .99,
13 .98.''

''Q. All right. Do you still like Michael
26 Jackson?
27 A. I have very strong memories and feelings for
28 the Michael that I have known but haven’t seen since
1 1999. But those are based on my feelings. We
2 haven’t spoken.
3 Q. All right. Is it the case that the sum
4 total of your communication with Mr. Jackson since
5 1999, six years ago, was a two-and-a-half-minute
6 conversation that you described?
7 A. Correct.''

 

[That Other Fan]

Really disagree this is their strategy to make him unsympathetic. The other point is that if they suspected Klein, how does that mean they are guilty of hiring, etc CM--what has CM to do with Klein--and what does 'suspecting' have to do with 'knowing'? NO ONE ever suspected MJ was getting nightly propofol--it was a shock to the WORLD, including a shock to AEG. There is no evidence whatsoever that they 'knew' about 60 days of propofol in a locked bedroom at 100 Carolwood.

If they suspected Klein, that does not follow that they suspected CM--also their suspicion re Klein had to be verified. You can't say I suspect this or that as a company and then take drastic action involving that individual, let alone a completely unrelated person. This is like jumping the gun--going out and beating someone up who is with your partner b/c you 'suspect' they are having an affair, etc.

I don't think either they are painting the Russian Roulette scenario either--they are saying there was past use of propofol related to insomnia and medical procedures, but that they were not aware of it until they were forced to do extensive research due to the lawsuit.

Basically, IMO Jacksons have to show direct and unequivocal knowledge of prior, but safe propofol use by AEG execs (RP and PG) and its being used again in wildly unsafe ways by CM.

Suspected doctor misconduct. Which AEG did suspect.

Not what the doctor was doing, because even if what AEG suspected about Klein was true, there was no way for them to know exactly what Klein was giving to Michael.

Hence, why it's so important for AEG to show secretive, doctor shopping behaviour by MJ in relation to his addiction/dependency... which Debbie's testimony literally destroys.

 

[crillon]

Didnt Randy Phillips write an email saying something like "Klein is freaking me out, he is shooting up MJ with something".

Frank Dileo calling Murray and asking for a blood test on MJ.

Branca in that mailconvetsation where he asks them (AEG "if the issue is chemical or not".

I know Dileo and Branca are not AEG exces but it seems as there were suspicions of drugs.

None of these emails had anything to do with suspicions around Murray or propofol. And, I think there's a big difference between a dermatologist giving him drugs because of medical procedures and execs concerned that he couldn't perform because of that AND Michael having a drug dependency. Branca and DiLeo are not AEG execs--as you point out--but they also knew the history and that's why DiLeo wanted blood test (asking Murray, not AEG)--that was not coming from Phillips or Gongaware.

 

[#MJforever57]

How does it show "AEG knew"? I think HLN's Joey Jackson is wishful thinking because nowhere in Debbie's testimony did she say she told AEG about drugs and/or propofol use

I don't see how characterizing Michael as having drug issues--that were secret--helps the Jackson side. It seems that the more they try to establish that Michael had a lifelong issue, the more they are making the case that AEG was simply in the unfortunate circumstance of being the ones working with him when he died.

I didn't say AEG knew Michael was taking Propofol their knew he had a drugs problem in the pass. Debbie said on two occasions in her testmony she went with Michael to Dr. Hoefflin office and what he did was gave Michael steriod shots in his nose this was to reduce the swollen scar tissue in Michael nose. Debbie said Michael couldn't stand the pain so Dr.Hoefflin gave Michael propofol to knock him out to do this procedire . Debbie witness this not one time but two time. that what i saw in her testmony. Maybe i read it wrong.


That why AEG should have never got invole with Dr. Murray in the first place this trial would be not going on now. Go back to what the two excerpts said this was a conficts of interests that AEG cause.

 

[ivy]

AEG suspected it though. They didn't know the specifics, which is understandable, but they suspected it. They simply suspected Klein and not Murray, but they did suspect it, so the "we couldn't possibly have known" stance goes out the window.

not quite. their stance have always been "we did not know Propofol", they never denied the knowledge of pain addiction. they couldn't Michael publicly announced it in 1993.

The are trying to create the narrative that he was "secretive addict" that was searching for doctors that would give him what he wanted and murray was just another doctor doing what MJ wanted. They are trying to portray that he was playing a game of russian roulette for years and finally lost.

Debbie's testimony goes against that. He did develop dependencies, but he wasn't doctor shopping. He simply trusted these doctors. She even goes so far to say the doctors were giving him drugs in an attempt to outdo the other. They wanted Michael to themselves. They were fighting for the role the "main doctor" in his life.

"secretive" can be established if no one had a clear idea of what is going on. that's exactly AEG's defense that they did not know either. for example Sasaki had no idea if any other was prescribing medicine, Debbie doesn't know what was given at Hoefflin that made Michael sleep, Randy has no idea what he took, Fournier had no idea about the implant. Randy doesn't even know he had insomnia. I think these seemingly inconsistent stories can also fit to AEG's strategy. (more about it later)

Debbie's testimony was conflicting at times. And then there are still the addiction experts. If they can get the Jackson addiction expert testimony in , I almost expect AEG to use it to their advantage and then even claim Michael was so secretive that he was even able to convince people closest to him that he did not have a problem and wasn't doctor shopping.

That makes him sympathetic. That's a blow to AEG's strategy.

yes it does make him sympathetic. I don't think AEG's strategy is to make him unsympathetic, their strategy is to make him responsible for his actions.

for example think about this : yes michael had serious insomnia that made him impossible to sleep. and that makes him extremely sympathetic - not an addict seeking a high but having a problem seeking help.

he gets Propofol to sleep. Doctors warn him but yet still give it to him. It's inappropriate drug to solve the issue. Michael knows the risks and it's not appropriate drug but he still gets it.

Who is responsible in this instance? 100% doctors because they give an inappropriate drugs? 100% Michael because he wanted it for sleep? or is it a 50-50 responsibility between Michael and the doctors?

 

[crillon]

That why AEG should have never got invole with Dr. Murray in the first place this trial would be not going on now. Go back to what the two excerpts said this was a conficts of interests that AEG cause.

AEG did not "get involved" with Murray--Michael did. Murray was Michael's idea, not AEG's idea and because Michael did not have any funds to pay him, AEG stepped in to help Michael out. That's the only reason AEG was "involved" with Murray.

 

[LastTear]

In 2003, Rowe said she spoke with Jackson over the phone and he said "there was a video coming out and it was full of lies and would I help. I said, as always, yes." Rowe said her conversation with Jackson lasted perhaps 2 1/2 minutes and there was no discussion of what he wanted her to do other than to work with his associates.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/63117/jacksons-ex-wife-debbie-rowe-testifies

I suspect she spoke to Michael as apposed to seeing him and maybe got to see the children, hence why she mentioned Paris's age.

 

[Vici]

None of these emails had anything to do with suspicions around Murray.

I know that. You wrote there were no suspicions of drugs being involved and I showed you yes it were BUT not against Murray, but there were suspicions at the end that it perhaps had to do with drugs.

Looks like Kenny was the only one suspecting Murray.

 

[crillon]

I know that. You wrote there were no suspicions of drugs being involved and I showed you yes it were BUT not against Murray, but there were suspicions at the end that it perhaps had to do with drugs.

Looks like Kenny was the only one suspecting Murray.

As Ivy points out, it's suspicion of propofol that matters and that was completely off the radar for AEG.

As for Kenny, he was bewildered by Michael's condition at rehearsal when he had a doctor taking care of him. Kenny didn't think propofol was involved. He didn't know, and in that email to Phillips, he was saying let's get a psych evaluation.

 

[Vici]

AEG did not "get involved" with Murray--

Had Michael not asked Murray to give him propofol (or even asked someone else), Michael would be alive and AEG would not be the victim of a multi-billion dollar lawsuit.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...The bottom line is always the same to me--Murray is responsible for Michael's death. Period.

I agree but you can also look on this from another perspective. If AEG didnt tie themselves into this mess with the conflict of interest then maybe they could've avoided this trial.

 

[That Other Fan]

Nothing in the testimony supports AEG knowledge of drug-taking, only that when Michael went to Klein, he was not himself and appeared to be groggy (understandable if he's getting medical procedures done). I don't recall (correct me, if I'm wrong) seeing one email exchange in which AEG execs were discussing their suspicions about drugs. The jury cannot read minds, as we're doing here, and they will have to rely on the testimony alone.

Through testimony we've learned that Randy Philips did in fact suspect drugs, doctor misconduct, etc. Also, it was more than just him being groggy leaving Klein's office that lead to those suspicions. He just suspected Klein. If you suspect doctor misconduct I'm not sure why you wouldn't suspect Murray, but nonetheless... they did suspect it.

He may not have been "doctor-shopping" for Demerol, but propofol is another story and we all know it. Michael thought--likely because a doctor recommended it--that he needed it to sleep and he looked for a doctor to go on tour with him (as Ratner had done) to administer it. That did not just happen with Murray and Debbie's testimony underscores that.

While Debbie does portray Michael sympathetically (and rightfully so), she does give a balanced view. The piece AEG needed from her was the testimony about propofol and they got it.

The case isn't about propofol and AEG can't be found responsible in that regard. They are saying they couldn't have known he was addicted had dependency period. That's why his history with doctors is so important. That's also why Debbie saying Michael trusted these doctors and that they were unethical in their treatments (simply trying to be the "main doctor" in Michael's life) is also important... and damaging to AEG's strategy.