"Unoffical Estate"

[classic]

well no, to my knowledge its not done with any other corporation. As for fans running the estate...thats not what im getting at. The Estate is MJ's estate. This estate is sorta...fan based, not official, isnt even organized yet. It was a idea for the fan to be more united, as a group, not just a forum. As much as i appreciation your thoughts, may i ask that you hold them back a little bit longer so we can organize, group, and start kicking off whatever we think to do? I wish not to start off with controversy, but with a open mind to all the possibilities.

It did sound aggressive, but that is perfectly fine for now. I just hope once we are together, we don't have to be aggressive. Just passive and helpful, not just being a "lump" and just taking what they give us. Some fans felt passionate about the Cascio tracks being false. So whoever it is, decided to start a campaign to not have Cascio singles/songs on the current and future MJ albums.

This wouldn't be an estate. The fans can organize all they want but it crosses the line to even begin to imply association to the estate through any wording. The question was what do people think about the idea. Now, think about how you are feeling about my response and how you still want to proceed with what you had in mind. Give the Estate executors that same thing that you want. They can only give you products that you decide whether to buy or not. I'm sure that when they want input or ideas then they are quite capable of setting up a way to get such. No fan has the right to be aggressive now or ever when dealing with something of which they are not a part. If anything, you are probably looking at turning off the Estate handlers versus being some force.

By the way, just as you felt passionate about the Cascio tracks being false, the Estate must have felt the same in terms of them being the real deal.

But, what's the point. Maybe they will just let the Estate be run by online voting and have revolving Executors and company heads so that everyone who wants a voice in the Estate's decisions can have them. That might be a good first suggestion or campaign.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Then we wont be an "estate"...we would be something. As for creating a name for what we will be...ill leave that to someone more creative.

The way Sony and the Estate handled the MICHAEL album really, divided the fans. Some thought: There shouldnt be a album, and they agreed with Will.i.am. Some were open to new MJ songs. The lack of promotion, and questionable tracks without public evidence really hurt the album sales too.

So imo, is the Estate/Handlers/Sony doing a respectable job? If they wanted to listen to feedback when they were crafting the Michael Album in Aug-Dec, they could have removed the questionable tracks, that we were unsure about. (obv they didnt, which is a horrible publicity stunt, or ignoring alot or fans) When Breaking News appeared, i heard the voice and i questioned it. In the long run, were the 3 tracks worth it?

With this Aaron Carter crap, why hasn't there been a "response from the estate"? Cant they say: MJ was a great guy and Aaron Carter is lying?
I dont think they are doing a good job, or using all the resources in their power to honor and protect MJ and his music. (because i read somewhere that Branca questioned, breaking news.)

I think as fans, we can create more public awareness to future releases. maybe im just a unorganized dreamer....idk im still very young.

 

[Annie123]

I think the Estate did the right thing in ignoring the Aaron Carter thing. No serious media was paying any attention to that nonsense. If the Estate put out a comment there would be way more media attention and it would give the story more life.

 

[JMie]

There are people who are fans of Coca-Cola or certain sports teams but do you think they can help run the company or franchise? No. Heck, this can even be said about this very fan board. Would you suggest that we have an "unofficial mjjc committee"? Feedback is just that. There is nothing that says the Estate has to change any plans based on negative feedback because I'm sure at the same time they are getting positive feedback.

This sounds like the argument that some family members make about participating in the Estate. They too say what is the harm in letting us help. Well, the harm is that Michael didn't set his Estate up to be run that way. Again, as much as Michael loved, loved, loved his fans, he did not incorporate them into running his Estate. People should respect that. The Estate is not only two people. Two people are the Executors charged with carrying out Michael's wishes as expressed in his will/trust. If people would stop tugging at them in all different directions, then they may even get around to doing something similar to what you wish. They have their priorities based on information that we don't have, so how much can you really help. People can't change that and should stop trying to do so. I'm not opposed to people giving them feedback through the methods already in place or when they want the feedback. Don't we actually have people on this board who have some type of contact relationship with the Estate? I'm sure they see the feedback but that doesn't mean your feedback is right.

I will ask again. Do you all do this with any other corporation and if not why only Michael's? He didn't leave his Estate in the hands of the fans. People should just keep repeating this. I'm not trying to be rude. But at some point I just want everyone to stop and let Michael's wishes be the only thing that matters when it comes to his Estate and that includes who runs it based on his selection (which again did not say who could or could not "help").

I agree with this. This looks like an attempt to establish an alternative Estate and it reminds me of Howard Mann. I think the approach should be more smooth, like Ivy said. I am all for organizing fans, but in order to do that you should give a precise description what exactly thi organization will be doing and how it will be doing it.

 

[maral]

unless fans work their way up into the estate somehow i can't see they let the fans have any say. to start an "unofficial Estate" would be illagal ......

 

[Garden]

I agree with this. This looks like an attempt to establish an alternative Estate and it reminds me of Howard Mann. I think the approach should be more smooth, like Ivy said. I am all for organizing fans, but in order to do that you should give a precise description what exactly thi organization will be doing and how it will be doing it.

Agree with you. I'm also afraid that it would be like a battlefield between fans of two camps : the Jackson fam / Howard Mann camp and the Estate camp...

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

I agree with this. This looks like an attempt to establish an alternative Estate and it reminds me of Howard Mann. I think the approach should be more smooth, like Ivy said. I am all for organizing fans, but in order to do that you should give a precise description what exactly thi organization will be doing and how it will be doing it.

Well thats what i made this thread for, to figure out what we will be doing, how it will get done etc. As for the bein estate, i guess thats a negative. Maybe using estate was a bad chocie of words.

IF ANYONE has any ideas on what they would like to called this "Organized group of fans"
i hope you share it.

 

[Garden]

Well thats what i made this thread for, to figure out what we will be doing, how it will get done etc.

IF ANYONE has any ideas on what they would like to called this "Organized group of fans"
i hope you share it.

I think that's good for a start, the final name can follow later as the above mentionned in the quote will avance and become clear : what kind of matters it will be about, what can be done, how it will get done, who will be in it etc...
Maybe for now the name "Organized (group of) Fans" will do?

One could agree for a basic text for a statement that explains clearly to everyone what it is about, how it works and so on...

Just brain storming I am not an organizer and I am not too much into this. Just wanted to express my thoughts .

 

[ivy]

I think we should start with a petition to appeal the whole Bad 25 DVD/Bluray.

there's already a thread about this

I think we should also request to keep Michael's songs the way they were meant to be. (no new bridges, no crowd noises"

see this is what i meant by "we know better" attitude.

business decisions do not made based on what we want but it must be based on what's the best decision. for example fans might prefer not touched songs but it could affect the sales numbers. so estate could decide to release the songs by working on them and then down the road can release untouched versions.

There would be nothing wrong with asking if the Estate would be open to suggestions, feedback, or comments (however, doesn't the Estate already have contact with fans as well as a twitter or facebook page that can be used for such) from fan clubs for just that only. [

yes they have a public twitter

If there is any outlets for feedback, the estate sure has ignored the whole "Cascio evidence subject" and "Aaron Carter matter"...isnt the estate only two people? if so would it be so bad if the Fans tried to help a bit?

they have many people employed for them. and they have reasons. for example "cascio evidence subject" here we see the assumption that they should have shown the evidence when asked by the fans but they might be protecting their hand if they face a lawsuit.

again business decisions cannot be made solely based on "want", you need to consider a lot more than that including business aspects, legal aspects etc etc.

I don't think that we have to sit back and "like it or lump it" if a significant number of us disagree with actions taken but I can see now that we would never be united in this anyway.

i agree that one of the major problems will be it will be hard to unite on an idea.

The way Sony and the Estate handled the MICHAEL album really, divided the fans. Some thought: There shouldnt be a album, and they agreed with Will.i.am. Some were open to new MJ songs.

i think this topic is over. there's a $250 million deal, there will be new albums.

The lack of promotion, and questionable tracks without public evidence really hurt the album sales too.

according to who. album is in the top 10 selling albums of 2011.

So imo, is the Estate/Handlers/Sony doing a respectable job? If they wanted to listen to feedback when they were crafting the Michael Album in Aug-Dec, they could have removed the questionable tracks, that we were unsure about. (obv they didnt, which is a horrible publicity stunt, or ignoring alot or fans) When Breaking News appeared, i heard the voice and i questioned it. In the long run, were the 3 tracks worth it?

do we have the information that they have. for example we heard that people worked with michael said it was him, that there was 2 expert reports and that there were some evidence such as work tapes. perhaps they had all the reason in the world to believe the songs to be legit and stay behind them. perhaps if we knew what they knew we would have felt the same way as they did.

With this Aaron Carter crap, why hasn't there been a "response from the estate"? Cant they say: MJ was a great guy and Aaron Carter is lying?

they didn't want to give that story any more media time.

I agree with this. This looks like an attempt to establish an alternative Estate and it reminds me of Howard Mann.

Agree with you. I'm also afraid that it would be like a battlefield between fans of two camps : the Jackson fam / Howard Mann camp and the Estate camp...

and that's my fear. to me it sounded like this could get out of hand quite easily and turn into a fight.

 

[ginvid]

I think some of you are taking one simple thing and nitpicking over it. After it was already stated multiple times that the name was a first thought, people still want to continually harp on just that. After it was repeatedly said that this was not an attempt to highjack the estate, there were still multiple posts insinuating that this wa sthe attempt here. MJ's fans, though many in number, are also quite divided. It is very difficult to make a small voice heard.

Having something like a Michael Jackson Fan Initiative that speaks for the fan group as a unit would not be a problem. It does not matter that you do not know all aspects of what is taking place. That still does not mean that you cannot be heard, make your position on something firmly known, and then let the estate decide how to act based on their more expansive knowledge.

Whether people believed the Cascio songs were MJ or not, most people would agree that there was a problem having them on the CD. It would be extremely impactful if we could release a statement representing thousands of fans stating how we felt about that whole fiasco. It does not have to be in a threatening tone, but it can clearly express our feelings.

The estate is there to make money. But guess what? MJ's fans are who they are marketing to. With videos like hold my hand and BTM, it shows they are not marketing to try to necessarily gain more fans, but to keep the ones they have. As such, I do not think it would be not be a problem for that fan base to make it known what they do or do not want.

But, in order to please everyone from the casual fan to the hardcore fan, the group would have to be middle of the road. Meaning it could not be too militant (ex. threatening to boycott, threatening to sue, etc) nor could it be too passive (Ex. I love everything you do type of thing).

Also, with the Aaron Carter thing, I don't buy that excuse that they didn't want to give it more media time. That is irrelevant. What about a statement sent to fan groups that said, "We hear what is going on. We have decided not to act at this time. But we want to let you know that we are prepared to take action at a later time if need be".

With the art piece situation, to tell us what they can (ex whether the story is true or not at least). We are not asking them to break confidentiality to be kust let us know something so we do not feel helpless. And to let us know if we can do something for them as a fan group.

This is in the planning stages with the OP simply asking for ideas. It kills me how even that is immediately shot down by people. Some of you sound like the company owners trying to go against union organizers. "Oh, organizing is bad. Don't do it". Some people automatically react so negatively to anything that even remotely hints at becoming a united group. And to compare this with Howard Mann who is trying to usurp the estate for his own personal gain is a really low blow. How can this be compared with a group of fans who simply want their voice to be heard. it is like a legacy section for all things MJ.

We could work with charities and send documentation and letters to the Estate so that they could send to media outlets if they would like to emphasize MJ's charitableness. We could campaign for certain things we would like to see. We could also campaing for certain things we would prefer to not see. It is ultimately their decision. However, that does not make us null and void.

Also, something to consider, before you start anything here, make sure you have Gaz's permission. This is his board and he would need to inderstand what you are at least trying to accomplish before you use his forum as a platform to speak for the fans.

 

[Mundy]

Thank you Ginvid. You put that the way I feel about it. I felt terrible last night about how what I said was taken up as aggressive. I've been here two years and I've never been offensive towards anyone and definitely didn't mean to come across as negative in any way. I guess I've just been worked up recently over what I saw as Michael's name being used for others' financial gain but I thought about it and I realise that's none of my business. I'd still like to be part of this and I think it could be helpful for fans and the estate. I was very disappointed by the negative reaction it received (I realise I'm partially to blame for that and I apologise) but this could be a positive step forward if it's done the right way.

EDIT: About the Cascio tracks, I do think that a lot of people see those songs being on the album as a bad thing, no matter what side they're on. That was what I was talking about when I said ultimatum (an example that petitioners wouldn't buy more Cascio tracks if they were released or something - like the way a lot of people only bought the non-Cascio tracks from the Michael album) but I deleted some of the post before I posted it so that part was no longer relevant and I didn't realise until later.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Ginvid, i like you post. Of course this is in the planning stage, and the name isnt official.

Talking on about how "This idea is shot down by some" it is. I can understand that, but the probelm is....its not even running yet. lol
Its like telling "Martin Luther King Jr....hey, you cant gather and unite here."

^obviously, MLK jr had a bigger reason to unite people to his grand ideas. But i guess what i ope we can accomplish is a small scale MJ Fan Unity.
Surely when deciding what we could possibly campiagn, we would all share a vote. I think the Democratic process could help us find a middle ground, and if it doesnt whatever is going on should be weaked some more.

 

[love is magical]

I think some of you are taking one simple thing and nitpicking over it. After it was already stated multiple times that the name was a first thought, people still want to continually harp on just that. After it was repeatedly said that this was not an attempt to highjack the estate, there were still multiple posts insinuating that this wa sthe attempt here. MJ's fans, though many in number, are also quite divided. It is very difficult to make a small voice heard.

Having something like a Michael Jackson Fan Initiative that speaks for the fan group as a unit would not be a problem. It does not matter that you do not know all aspects of what is taking place. That still does not mean that you cannot be heard, make your position on something firmly known, and then let the estate decide how to act based on their more expansive knowledge.

Whether people believed the Cascio songs were MJ or not, most people would agree that there was a problem having them on the CD. It would be extremely impactful if we could release a statement representing thousands of fans stating how we felt about that whole fiasco. It does not have to be in a threatening tone, but it can clearly express our feelings.

The estate is there to make money. But guess what? MJ's fans are who they are marketing to. With videos like hold my hand and BTM, it shows they are not marketing to try to necessarily gain more fans, but to keep the ones they have. As such, I do not think it would be not be a problem for that fan base to make it known what they do or do not want.

But, in order to please everyone from the casual fan to the hardcore fan, the group would have to be middle of the road. Meaning it could not be too militant (ex. threatening to boycott, threatening to sue, etc) nor could it be too passive (Ex. I love everything you do type of thing).

Also, with the Aaron Carter thing, I don't buy that excuse that they didn't want to give it more media time. That is irrelevant. What about a statement sent to fan groups that said, "We hear what is going on. We have decided not to act at this time. But we want to let you know that we are prepared to take action at a later time if need be".

With the art piece situation, to tell us what they can (ex whether the story is true or not at least). We are not asking them to break confidentiality to be kust let us know something so we do not feel helpless. And to let us know if we can do something for them as a fan group.

This is in the planning stages with the OP simply asking for ideas. It kills me how even that is immediately shot down by people. Some of you sound like the company owners trying to go against union organizers. "Oh, organizing is bad. Don't do it". Some people automatically react so negatively to anything that even remotely hints at becoming a united group. And to compare this with Howard Mann who is trying to usurp the estate for his own personal gain is a really low blow. How can this be compared with a group of fans who simply want their voice to be heard. it is like a legacy section for all things MJ.

We could work with charities and send documentation and letters to the Estate so that they could send to media outlets if they would like to emphasize MJ's charitableness. We could campaign for certain things we would like to see. We could also campaing for certain things we would prefer to not see. It is ultimately their decision. However, that does not make us null and void.

Also, something to consider, before you start anything here, make sure you have Gaz's permission. This is his board and he would need to inderstand what you are at least trying to accomplish before you use his forum as a platform to speak for the fans.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Bravo!

 

[nadalette]

Fan unity is something I dream of and if that is at the heart of the aims of this group, count me in! I look forward to seeing how this brave idea shapes up and helping out if I can.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

The idea, was first mentioned by me in the "Great Album Debate" section. Since then ive considered to it to be a project of mine to try to get this going.

woah, and it was moved? ....how is it controversial? It is something i hope can be a reality.

Hum, hum...

 

[love is magical]

Hum, hum...

:lmao:

Billy, the idea is actually first mentioned by Bumper in the Aaron Carter thread. Then, his post was moved to the great album thread because of it being off-topic...

anyway, you two are both cool.... unk:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

:lmao:

Billy, the idea is actually first mentioned by Bumper in the Aaron Carter thread. Then, his post was moved to the great album thread because of it being off-topic...

anyway, you two are both cool.... unk:

Thanks LOVE


Allow me to remind you what I had said before this thread has opened:


What Aaron has done is a bad thing. I see that the Estate does not react. From what I see, some fans are much more acute when it comes to MJ's legacy than the Estate/SONY/the Jacksons.

So, can we in these difficult times first STOP jumping at each other, and second act always united as an unofficial Estate not driven by the money, but by MJ's legacy.

It is good that we can be MJ's voice in these difficult times to defend the one that is not with us, but I think that we are in desperate need of a much better structure. In order to have a better structure we need to avoid chaos, which so far hasn't been our strongest asset.

I wouldn't like to hijack this thread, but MJ's legacy is still not defended as it should be regarding the Cascio tracks. We clearly lack zeal when it comes to those tracks. Now, before some of you stone me for saying this, those who believe and those who don't believe those tracks to be genuine have been seriously divided for months to the point that fans have been insulting each other. This is something that should have NEVER happpened, especially when a new album is released! What have we done to improve the situation? ....NOTHING!

I am not asking the believers to change their opinion, nor am I asking the doubters to change theirs. I am asking to stand united in such a controversy and to understand the fans that are not at rest when it comes to MJ's legacy. In this case the doubters are clearly not at ease and we (I am one of them) need believers' help - UNITY and SUPPORT.

All we are asking is: what happened to those Cascio tracks?

We haven't had much information. As far as I am concerned, given the fact that there is no trace of the recordings of those tracks, we should demand from the Estate and from SONY a detailed report of the musicologists and the methods they used to determine that it is MJ's voice as they claim. We even don't know who were those so called BEST musicologists who determined that it is MJ's voice on those tracks. Do you?

The bottom line is that we should stay united no matter what. It doesn't matter if we are believers or doubters, but we should never ever doubt the authenticity of MJ's tracks for the sake of MJ's legacy.

Just as for Aaron's ambiguous statements, we should unite and demand appropriate action when it comes to ambiguous tracks instead of insulting each others on the forums. We need each others, let's not forget it.

Do you want more MJ's albums with angry fans? What did the Estate do regarding Aaron's interview? What did it do regarding the Cascio tracks? Nothing sufficiently in any case. We clearly can't count on anyone but on ourselves.

 

[love is magical]

^^ you are welcome!

love is magical is stalkin' the moves of BUMPER SNIPPET... Watch out, I follow all your posts.... Lol...

 

[classic]

. . . Also, with the Aaron Carter thing, I don't buy that excuse that they didn't want to give it more media time. That is irrelevant. What about a statement sent to fan groups that said, "We hear what is going on. We have decided not to act at this time. But we want to let you know that we are prepared to take action at a later time if need be".

With the art piece situation, to tell us what they can (ex whether the story is true or not at least). We are not asking them to break confidentiality to be kust let us know something so we do not feel helpless. And to let us know if we can do something for them as a fan group.

. . .

The problem with some of this is that you are asking for information that is none of any of our business unless they decide to share it with us. It is not our business what is going on with the art stuff. They don't owe an explanation and as Ivy was pointing out there may be reasons that they don't want to comment on certain stories.

 

[classic]

Thanks LOVE


. . . I am not asking the believers to change their opinion, nor am I asking the doubters to change theirs. I am asking to stand united in such a controversy and to understand the fans that are not at rest when it comes to MJ's legacy. In this case the doubters are clearly not at ease and we (I am one of them) need believers' help - UNITY and SUPPORT.

All we are asking is: what happened to those Cascio tracks?

We haven't had much information. As far as I am concerned, given the fact that there is no trace of the recordings of those tracks, we should demand from the Estate and from SONY a detailed report of the musicologists and the methods they used to determine that it is MJ's voice as they claim. We even don't know who were those so called BEST musicologists who determined that it is MJ's voice on those tracks. Do you?

The bottom line is that we should stay united no matter what. It doesn't matter if we are believers or doubters, but we should never ever doubt the authenticity of MJ's tracks for the sake of MJ's legacy.

Just as for Aaron's ambiguous statements, we should unite and demand appropriate action when it comes to ambiguous tracks instead of insulting each others on the forums. We need each others, let's not forget it.

Do you want more MJ's albums with angry fans? What did the Estate do regarding Aaron's interview? What did it do regarding the Cascio tracks? Nothing sufficiently in any case. We clearly can't count on anyone but on ourselves.

And this is why it seems as if fans think they know better and is the huge turn off. I guess I'm not surprised because this actually went on when Michael was living. If this is the attitude, then my suggestion would be to petition the court that the estate is not being handled properly and that an executive board made of fans should run it.

 

[ginvid]

The problem with some of this is that you are asking for information that is none of any of our business unless they decide to share it with us. It is not our business what is going on with the art stuff. They don't owe an explanation and as Ivy was pointing out there may be reasons that they don't want to comment on certain stories.

None of your business??? Stop glancing over my post and not actually reading it. This is something that totally infuriates me. It makes me so angry. I said I don't know how many times in my post that they can decide what they will reveal because they know all of the facts. But as a group, we can at least let them know where we stand. Ivy herself even sent an email to the estate about the art story and even said "She wished the Estate had commented". Did the fact that they did not comment prevent her from asking no. The worse that happens is they do not listen. At best, we as fans get what we ask for. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with fans banding together and letting the Estate know what we would like as a group.

As for the Aaron Carter story, there is absolutely no reason why they could not make a statement if just for the fans. They do not have to go to the media. But simply send out a letter to the fans groups (something they do when they want to make themselves look good) just to let us know they are aware. A statement as I posted above would have taken a short amount a time but would have made such a huge difference for the fan base.

People are so fixed in the way they want things to be that they cannot even bother to put their perceptions aside to read their fellow members posts carefully and honestly.

And for the record, Bumper never once said the Estae was being mishandled as a whole. So please stop going from 0 to 100 in under a minute. He was simply stating that that fiasco caused a huge divide in MJ's fan community. And if for that alone, if the Estate could show just a little more transparency, with regard to what happened with those tracks, then it would be beneficial. If only a few fans asked for this, that is one thing. But say if there was a fan group of thousands, it would have more of an impact. Now the Estate would have to ultimately decide how to act, but at least they would know we are united and that we care about MJ's legacy and we are not pushovers buying whatever they selling just because MJ's name is on it.

 

[classic]

None of your business??? Stop glancing over my post and not actually reading it. This is something that totally infuriates me. It makes me so angry. I said I don't know how many times in my post that they can decide what they will reveal because they know all of the facts. But as a group, we can at least let them know where we stand. Ivy herself even sent an email to the estate about the art story and even said "She wished the Estate had commented". Did the fact that they did not comment prevent her from asking no. The worse that happens is they do not listen. At best, we as fans get what we ask for. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with fans banding together and letting the Estate know what we would like as a group.

As for the Aaron Carter story, there is absolutely no reason why they could not make a statement if just for the fans. They do not have to go to the media. But simply send out a letter to the fans groups (something they do when they want to make themselves look good) just to let us know they are aware. A statement as I posted above would have taken a short amount a time but would have made such a huge difference for the fan base.

People are so fixed in the way they want things to be that they cannot even bother to put their perceptions aside to read their fellow members posts carefully and honestly.

And for the record, Bumper never once said the Estae was being mishandled as a whole. So please stop going from 0 to 100 in under a minute. He was simply stating that that fiasco caused a huge divide in MJ's fan community. And if for that alone, if the Estate could show just a little more transparency, with regard to what happened with those tracks, then it would be beneficial. If only a few fans asked for this, that is one thing. But say if there was a fan group of thousands, it would have more of an impact. Now the Estate would have to ultimately decide how to act, but at least they would know we are united and that we care about MJ's legacy and we are not pushovers buying whatever they selling just because MJ's name is on it.

I read all the posts that I commented on. There is no need to insult that that was not done because you don't agree.

And again, one group can not speak for the fans, which is a group that is so vast. I will say again that there are already methods in place to let the Estate know feelings by anyone. If those same thousands use those methods, what would be the difference? Why not just encourage the use of those?

This is not coming off as simply inquiring or giving suggestions; there definitely appears to be a second agenda here that may not be everyone's intention. Bumper's post suggested a clear agenda that can never be attributed to the "fans." And this is why I say, let your voices be heard by all means but through those methods where the individual can speak for himself or herself; if enough speaks in a certain direction, then they will get the message. Why not just encourage people to do such versus making things seem as if there is an entity or group that speaks for all fans. It can't possibly do that but that is not the sense of direction that is being advocated; there is this sense that this group would speak for a consensus of thought among the fans. You can't even get that; you could only get people who are members of the boards but again not all of those and again you would be leaving out a majority of Michael Jackson fans (because they are not all here by any means on MJ boards). Can Gaz speak for MJJC? Yes. This is his board and anyone who does not want to be associated with the message can disassociate with the board. That is simple. That can never translate to Michael's fans because everyone in that group can't just disassociate from the general group called Michael Jackson fans. What happens when other fan groups sprout to give their version of what the fans want? It can go on and on and this is when you will definitely get deaf ears.

As for the "none of our business" comment. There is nothing wrong with asking anything. That is done all the time on this board (which again is why I don't see why a special group is needed when it is being done now anyway). But, the problem comes with respecting the fact when there isn't a reply. That isn't done and that is why it appears that there is more entitlement than what there really is. People aren't saying "well the Estate must have reasons for not responding to this or that (that we can see)." You say that the Estate could have at least acknowledged to the fans that they were aware of the Aaron Carter story. But, didn't they do that? Didn't they indicate that the situation was being monitored? Yet, all that did was cause all H*ll to break again; so, no, there isn't this notion that they have the right to respond or not to respond. Furthermore, sorry, but things like "not driven by money but MJ's legacy" (in Bumper's post) is very imflammatory. Whether people like it or not, the executors have to be concerned with both.

If people are truly for or against an idea, then they will be heard in volume with respect to participation or sales as consumers. If the response or outcry isn't as strong as you think it should be then maybe it is because the majority don't feel as strongly about it as you do. I'm just saying that any statements intended to represent the fans can not possibly be given because you can't possibly gain that consensus because you don't have access to all the fans. It would be wrong to present it as any other way, so just let the individuals speak as he or she wants. If there are enough, then they will be heard.

The problem seems that some may be thinking one thing but others see this as a way to meet their personal agendas as it comes to the Estate but with the appearance of the fans' blessings. Again, Michael didn't give us that responsibility. How can that split purpose and agenda ever be reconciled?

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

This is not coming off as simply inquiring or giving suggestions; there definitely appears to be a second agenda here that may not be everyone's intention.

I dont want us to argue anymore, but for you to assume i made this thread with a second agenda? I respect feedback, even if it isnt positive, but i can say without a doubt in my mind that this "MJ Fans Unite" was made to help preserve MJ's legacy, and let our "thousands" voices be heard as a compromised one.

We care about Michael Jackson. We dont profit off him, we buy his music. He want the best for his legacy and, i feel that together we can achive something for once then just sitting on a fourm most of the time saying: Cascio sucks, Estate is doing a bad job...so on and so forth.


AND tommorow i will be on vacation, so i wont be able to reply. ill be back in 8 days." if its all possible could we try to start something while im gone and just fill me in when i return?"

 

[classic]

I dont want us to argue anymore, but for you to assume i made this thread with a second agenda? I respect feedback, even if it isnt positive, but i can say without a doubt in my mind that this "MJ Fans Unite" was made to help preserve MJ's legacy, and let our "thousands" voices be heard as a compromised one.

We care about Michael Jackson. We dont profit off him, we buy his music. He want the best for his legacy and, i feel that together we can achive something for once then just sitting on a fourm most of the time saying: Cascio sucks, Estate is doing a bad job...so on and so forth.

I said that that second agenda may not be everyone's. But, again, to bring up the Cascio tracks say this is more than just making inquires or suggestions. What about the thousands of fans that didn't have a problem with it or do not think that should still be a focus of the Estate? How will you make sure that any statement is not spoken on behalf of fans in general because there is no way that can be done?

Suggestion: why not just make sure that any statements or inquires or suggestions are noted as belonging only to whatever group name that is chosen and include a statement about how many exactly belong to this group so that there is no misrepresentation about from whom or from how many fans the statements or whatever is coming? That "thousands" needs to be officiated and confirmed with any thing sent as a representation of the "fans" opinion or thoughts.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

[...]
Allow me to remind you what I had said before this thread has opened:


So, can we in these difficult times first STOP jumping at each other, and second act always united as an unofficial Estate not driven by the money, but by MJ's legacy.

[...] we are in desperate need of a much better structure. In order to have a better structure we need to avoid chaos, which so far hasn't been our strongest asset.[/I]

[...]
before some of you stone [...] have been seriously divided for months to the point that fans have been insulting each other. This is something that should have NEVER happpened, [...] What have we done to improve the situation? ....NOTHING![/I]

[...] stand united in such a controversy [...] we [...] need [...] help - UNITY and SUPPORT.[/I]

[...]

The bottom line is that we should stay united no matter what.

[...]

we should unite [...] instead of insulting each others on the forums. We need each others, let's not forget it.

Do you want more [...] angry fans? [...] We clearly can't count on anyone but on ourselves.

sigh...

 

[Garden]

Beautifull quotes Bumper but when I read the Great Album Debate I see other things.

How do you think you will unite fans for being at one side?

[...] stand united in such a controversy [...] we [...] need [...] help - UNITY and SUPPORT.[/I]

note: I colored and underlined "controversy"

Why don't you make your own action group with or without recruting followers here at MJJC?

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

We have to agree on a Name change. lol its not and hasnt been the unnoficial estate for about 2 days or so. lol well im off to vacation. Good luck.

 

[Garden]

We have to agree on a Name change. lol its not and hasnt been the unnoficial estate for about 2 days or so. lol well im off to vacation. Good luck.

(Good for the name change idea!)
Have a nice vacation Billiejeanplxiv!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Beautifull quotes Bumper but when I read the Great Album Debate I see other things.

Are you indirectly implying that I am holding a double discourse?

What you see in the Great Album debate is nothing else than a debate, which is perfectly fine. Why shouldn't we have a perfectly healthy and strong debate about MJ-related things? We need the debate too. But despite the debate, why can't we unite and act as one when it comes to dealing with MJ's merchandise. Both, doubters and believers are fed up with and unhappy because of the division among the angry fans, and that is the only reason why we should unite and agree that no controversial material should be released until there is a concrete proof.

As I said, today you will say that those tracks are genuine, and maybe tomorrow the official Estate will allow the release of other material that you might believe to be fake and I might believe to be genuine. What are you going to do then? Fight alone against it or create your own subgroup of another non-believer group, rather than being all united and act as one? Or, you'd maybe stand behind a group of people claiming to be "neutral".

As far as I am concerned I do not believe in neutrality, there is no such thing. All those who have been claiming to be neutral one way or another have been either cheerfully belittling or supporting one side or the other.

How do you think you will unite fans for being at one side?

I don't have that power. And by the way, I never said that the fans have to be on the same side. I was rather trying to make a point by saying that a concessus is needed for both sides. It's in our best interest as well as in MJ's legacy's, given the fact that we really cannot count on the Estate or SONY or anyone actually. Basically I am calling all those who are interested, no matter which side they're on, to be constructive together, rather than to belittle each other for "lack of proofs".

note: I colored and underlined "controversy"

Controversy is all that divides the fans. We can have a strong and healthy debate among us, that's one thing. But we can also act on top of that as one when it comes to an important controversy, which is not the case now at all.

Why don't you make your own action group with

My own? You must have misunderstood me. It is not about me or my group. It is about us and MJ's material. I personally have no interest in creating my own group. I am just trying to raise awareness and wake up some people who are blinded by their ego. We should never forget that we need each other in unity more than in divided groups.

or without recruting followers here at MJJC?

Without "recruiting" here?

I don't understand your point I 'm afraid.

First, I am not recruiting. Second, are you saying that I shouldn't spread the word here? Third where do you want me to "recruit" or spread the word if not within MJ community? There are other platforms, I know, but I can't be everywhere at the same time. By the way my words are apparently not welcome everywhere, so how do you expect me to spread the word if people shut my mouth?

 

[Garden]

No comment.