USA's attitude towards MJ

[Annita]

I mean that everyone knows the songs from Thriller and Bad but forget most of the songs from History, most of Dangerous, songs like BOTDF and YRMW. Yes there is the odd exception like TDCAU but mostly it's 80s stuff. Especially when we all agree 90s was his creative peak.

I think it is totally diffrent in Europe. Songs from Dangerous and Histoy are very popular and played in radio, in fact chart-wise he was far more successful in this time in Europe.

 

[Tony R]

Although America was the one country to fully turn, his popularity waned here also. Just not to the same extent.

I remember times from 80s when everyone was a fan through to Dangerous where it wasn't cool, but then people still loved the songs and still slowly bought the album. I always remember smiling when I saw Dangerous in people's CD collection after giving me grief for liking him!

Then History and beyond when it was almost hard to admit still being a fan but even through History the quality of his music wasn't in doubt.

Invincible was the hardest as you couldn't use the singles as a sign that he still had it. Hence me constantly harping on about WH and Unbreakable being the lead singles.

When I wrote a piece after Michael's death it started with the line, 'I knew one day the world would come to universally love Michael Jackson again, and it would take a fantastic comeback gig or his death' it was so nearly the former, but it was not to be.

I wonder what America think of him now though. Is he played often? Does he come high on polls of best artists ever etc.?

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

I think until Thriller he was more popular in the US than anywhere else. Thriller was a global phenomenon, but then from Bad on his popularity started to shift to other parts of the world, outside of the US. That does not mean he was not still popular in the US, but his popularity declined a bit but stayed the same or even grew in other countries. (Just some signs of it: Bad and Dangerous being a bigger seller in some countries than Thriller, Earth Song being MJ's most popular single ever in some countries etc.)

I think the decline in popularity in the US has many reasons: the allegations are of course the main one, but even before that there was a certain decline which probably had to do with his changing appearance and the fact that people were unsure what to make of it (esp. before he announced his vitiligo on Oprah). I think it wasn't that much of a problem for other countries, but in the US with its history with racism, slavery, black and white issues - it was a bigger issue for people, both black and white.

Also there were new trends emerging (notably hip-hop among black youth and grunge among whites) which kind of made MJ "uncool" in certain circles. And yes, yet another reason is that he kind of abandoned the US in touring for other markets. All that played a role. Mainly, of course the allegations and the subsequent brainwash and limitless slander by the US media. And yes, the UK media can be just as bad, if not worse, yet it seems to me the Brits just do not take their media as seriously because it did not seem to affect MJ's popularity in Britain. Blood on the Dance Floor was Nr 1. in the UK, This Is It sold out in no time etc.

with Thriller, his international support was greater than it was with Bad, Dangerous, and History

during its initial run, Thriller sold 47 million copies worldwide, selling 25 million in the united states alone, the other 22 million were sold internationally

during Bad's initial run, it sold 25 million copies worldwide, selling 6-8 million copies in America, so that indicates the other 17-19 million copies sold was a couple of million less than Thriller

during DAngerous intial run, it sold 20-22 million copies, selling 6-8 million copies in America, the remaining sells of 14-16 million occured overseas, Thriller sold more

and with History initial run, selling 15 million copies world wide (if you count both discs as a single sale) 4-6 million were sold in america, the remaining 10-15 million were sold over seas, over half less than what he achieved with Thriller

Thriller was not only his greatest selling album in America, but overseas as well, based on that trajectory, as MJ said in his book Moonwalk, he expected to sell 100 million copies worldwide

 

[HIStory]

with Thriller, his international support was greater than it was with Bad, Dangerous, and History

during its initial run, Thriller sold 47 million copies worldwide, selling 25 million in the united states alone, the other 22 million were sold internationally

during Bad's initial run, it sold 25 million copies worldwide, selling 6-8 million copies in America, so that indicates the other 17-19 million copies sold was a couple of million less than Thriller

during DAngerous intial run, it sold 20-22 million copies, selling 6-8 million copies in America, the remaining sells of 14-16 million occured overseas, Thriller sold more

and with History initial run, selling 15 million copies world wide (if you count both discs as a single sale) 4-6 million were sold in america, the remaining 10-15 million were sold over seas, over half less than what he achieved with Thriller

Thriller was not only his greatest selling album in America, but overseas as well, based on that trajectory, as MJ said in his book Moonwalk, he expected to sell 100 million copies worldwide

Yes, Thriller was his biggest selling album in most countries (there are a couple of notable exceptions though like Germany), but look how much his sales declined in the US compared to Thriller and how much they declined in other countries! It's pretty clear from your stats that his decline was by far the biggest in the US. 22 million or 19 or 17 million - I'd say that's pretty much still a very similar level of popularity for Bad and Dangerous globally. Especially when you compare it to 29 million (Thriller) vs. 9-10 million (Bad) or 7 million (Dangerous) in the US.

 

[dewey]

I wonder what America think of him now though. Is he played often? Does he come high on polls of best artists ever etc.?

Maybe I'm not the best one to post on this, but my perception is that Americans still enjoy his music, that the tarnish has faded on his character. I think there was a noticeable shift in attitude when he died. I rarely listen to "Top 40" radio now so I did not hear a lot of the Xscape singles on air except on an adult contemporary station... Many people still comment favorably to me personally about his music and influence.

And maybe I'm looking at things through rose colored glasses.

 

[Tony R]

Maybe I'm not the best one to post on this, but my perception is that Americans still enjoy his music, that the tarnish has faded on his character. I think there was a noticeable shift in attitude when he died. I rarely listen to "Top 40" radio now so I did not hear a lot of the Xscape singles on air except on an adult contemporary station... Many people still comment favorably to me personally about his music and influence.

And maybe I'm looking at things through rose colored glasses.

I imagine you're right. That's the feeling I get from articles I read.

 

[Hess]

I think the cuel media, the false allegations - and the medias wrongful and misleading writing about it made many americans think he was actually guilty. The manipulating media made many people belive the lies and thought MJ turned himself white and was a pedo.

After he died it was absolutely put in stone and for everyone to read that MJ had indeed Vitiligo as he said. So he was NOT lying.

When people realised he had not lied about that, maybe some would think he did not lie about the allegations made in '93 - and he was cleared of all charged after all in 2005, so maybe people started to believe him a bit more?

After he died there has been more focus on the music and less focus on the madness and the man. So nomatter what people think of MJ as a person (some think he was very weird indeed) most peole can agree the music is genius, timeless - pure magic.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

America did not have a vendetta against Michael Jackson

after Grammy night of 1984 where he won 8 Grammys, America not only revered him, but all cultures representing America respected his talent and his music and his message, black people did, white people did, hispanic people did, asian people did and the like....there was no jealousy, no hate, there was no dissension or division among his fan following, he had followers from 8 years old to 80 years old

he became the nation's ambassador of music, we listened to that message....we took heed to it, and it all culminated in the world's greatest humanitarian plea with We Are The World, kids, teenagers across America practically stood in line during music class to sing his vocals.....

school principals spoke highly of MJ's amazing talent after those groundbreaking performances throughout Thriller's run, the unforgettable Motown 25 performance, the premiere of the Thriller video

not only was Michael celebrated but that of his entire family, that was the icing on the cake

by 1984, Michael Jackson became a national treasure in every since of the word.....

the problems started in 1987, not prior to then...

 

[dewey]

Can you elaborate on the problems in 1987? When Bad was released? I was 18 years old at the time and remember unprecedented popularity and acceptance (with all the videos and Bad tour coverage and Moonwalk, Moonwalker... things REALLY changed in 1993, in my opinion.

 

[HIStory]

Can you elaborate on the problems in 1987? When Bad was released? I was 18 years old at the time and remember unprecedented popularity and acceptance (with all the videos and Bad tour coverage and Moonwalk, Moonwalker... things REALLY changed in 1993, in my opinion.

Yes, the big change came in 1993, but there was already negativity against MJ before that. I think it was the media's favourite game of "build you up and then tear you down" - and that they decided that after the phenomenal success of Thriller it was time to tear MJ down, but also because of his changing appearance. I remember all the discussions about it at the time and when the Bad album came out TV pundits discussed more the cover than the music. Remember this was all before he announced his vitiligo, so people just did not know what to make of it.

In a way one could argue that 1993 did not stand in itself - it was already prepared by a certain narrative of MJ being "weird", "*****" etc. With that narrative preparing the ground it was a lot easier for the Chandlers and the media to make people believe the allegations as well.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Can you elaborate on the problems in 1987? When Bad was released? I was 18 years old at the time and remember unprecedented popularity and acceptance (with all the videos and Bad tour coverage and Moonwalk, Moonwalker... things REALLY changed in 1993, in my opinion.

if I go into it in detail, people have to be open minded about what was being said then

me as an MJ fan since the 70s, I remember teh conversations and reactions like it was yesterday

and we need to realize that no fan following of MJ rather they were from the 70s, early 80s, late 80s, 90s, 2000s, are better than the next....but it's about point of reference and when a person became a fan of his determines what they believe about what was going on after Thriller

Thriller sold 25 million copies along domestically here in the United States

Bad sold 6-8 million domestically in the United States, that's close to a 20 million decline in sales between the most anticipated follow up album in history and the album that went on to sell the most copies sold

Michael had already lost over half his american fanbase before the 80s ended, 4-5 years prior the allegations surfaced in 1993

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Yes, the big change came in 1993, but there was already negativity against MJ before that. I think it was the media's favourite game of "build you up and then tear you down" - and that they decided that after the phenomenal success of Thriller it was time to tear MJ down, but also because of his changing appearance. I remember all the discussions about it at the time and when the Bad album came out TV pundits discussed more the cover than the music. Remember this was all before he announced his vitiligo, so people just did not know what to make of it.

In a way one could argue that 1993 did not stand in itself - it was already prepared by a certain narrative of MJ being "weird", "*****" etc. With that narrative preparing the ground it was a lot easier for the Chandlers and the media to make people believe the allegations as well.

Absolutely spot on! Mike addressed it also in the Leave Me Alone short-film. The "weird" narrative was going on during the Bad era.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Absolutely spot on! Mike addressed it also in the Leave Me Alone short-film. The "weird" narrative was going on during the Bad era.

those stories about being "weird"....the stories about Michael wanting to buy the Elephant Man's Bones, about sleeping the Hyperbaric Chamber...the media did not start that, they did not plant those stories

for whatever reason, Michael planted those stories from 1986 up to the moment Bad was released so by the time of the album's release, he was being viewed by the media (not all media but more commercially oriented) as being "weird"..

Michael never had to go that route, he was already the greatest, most successful recording artist and entertainer in the recording industry.

 

[Hess]

Michael made it hard for him self. I'll admit that.

He planted weird stories and t´did some crazy things just to get attention. - the old All attention is good attention. - But it seems like it backfired...

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Michael made it hard for him self. I'll admit that.

He planted weird stories and t´did some crazy things just to get attention. - the old All attention is good attention. - But it seems like it backfired...

exactly....it definitely backfired...it never worked

when he started planting the stories, that's when the pendulum began to shift and the focus started to be directed towards those stories rather than his music and this talent

if he would not have done that, the media would have never been able to get to him

 

[HIStory]

exactly....it definitely backfired...it never worked

when he started planting the stories, that's when the pendulum began to shift and the focus started to be directed towards those stories rather than his music and this talent

if he would not have done that, the media would have never been able to get to him

A lot of celebrities plant stories in the media to keep up the interest. It wasn't just MJ. Yet, with most other celebs the media knew to play along and not to overstep certain boundaries.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Didn't Frank Dileo plant a few of those stories? & what I'm talking about more specificly is the term MJ so disliked. I know MJ had certain things planted, but isin't that part of the celebrity game?

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Didn't Frank Dileo plant a few of those stories? & what I'm talking about more specificly is the term MJ so disliked. I know MJ had certain things planted, but isin't that part of the celebrity game?

Dileo didn't do anything that Michael didn't tell him to do......

Michael Jackson didn't need to go that route, his talent was bigger than that, the planted stories began the shift, the origin of the shift

for those other entertainers who did plant stories, they knew their talent didn't match up, or wasn't worthy of being in the position they were in

after Thriller, the music world and music followers were only interested as to what Michael was going to do next in regards to his talent

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Dileo didn't do anything that Michael didn't tell him to do......

Michael Jackson didn't need to go that route, his talent was bigger than that, the planted stories began the shift, the origin of the shift

for those other entertainers who did plant stories, they knew their talent didn't match up, or wasn't worthy of being in the position they were in

after Thriller, the music world and music followers were only interested as to what Michael was going to do next in regards to his talent

Are you absolutely sure Dileo didn't plant a few stories? Just what I heard, & yeah I agree that MJ didn't need to go down that road, perhaps it was just a way of furthering the mystique?

 

[analogue]

Even if Michael did plant those stories about himself during the BAD era those stories were just harmless fun, that wasn't hurting anybody. What Michael did did not justify the media's treatment towards him. They turned what was some harmless fun into vicious attacks, bullying and a witch hunt

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

"I can't believe this is the land from which I came"
Michael Jackson , They Don't Care About Us 1995

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I've always had this theory with MJ and the US. (Forgive me American fans)
I feel a lot of the patriotic American's felt hurt by Michael because he didn't wave an American flag every five minutes and remind everyone where he was from. Say like Bruce Springsteen or Tom Cruise in the movies for example. He was American but I don't think of him as an American in my mind he is just MJ. I find the way he was treated by SOME people in the United States a disgrace !
Especially when he is the physical embodiment of the American dream...

 

[Tony R]

I've always had this theory with MJ and the US. (Forgive me American fans)
I feel a lot of the patriotic American's felt hurt by Michael because he didn't wave an American flag every five minutes and remind everyone where he was from. Say like Bruce Springsteen or Tom Cruise in the movies for example. He was American but I don't think of him as an American in my mind he is just MJ. I find the way he was treated by SOME people in the United States a disgrace !
Especially when he is the physical embodiment of the American dream...

Not to be pedantic, but Bruce is hardly patriotic. 'Born in the USA' was misunderstood by many americans (including Reagan) as being about the American Dream, but it was the opposite, it was about being forgotten & mistreated by the US when soldiers went to die for it at war.

 

[dewey]

I've always had this theory with MJ and the US. (Forgive me American fans)
I feel a lot of the patriotic American's felt hurt by Michael because he didn't wave an American flag every five minutes and remind everyone where he was from. Say like Bruce Springsteen or Tom Cruise in the movies for example. He was American but I don't think of him as an American in my mind he is just MJ. I find the way he was treated by SOME people in the United States a disgrace !
Especially when he is the physical embodiment of the American dream...

I don't think that's true, about waving the flag. Just sayin.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

I couldn't think off the top of my head a patriotic American Bruce Springsteen came to mind. I've seen him live and he spoke about home a lot and he kept mentioning the US (P.S he was amazing live). I didn't mean to offend anyone on this forum that's just my two pence.

 

[MJresearcher]

Didn't Frank Dileo plant a few of those stories? & what I'm talking about more specificly is the term MJ so disliked. I know MJ had certain things planted, but isin't that part of the celebrity game?

On the DVD Michael Jackson: The Life Of An Icon there was an interview with Dileo where he spoke about putting those stories out i the press, something about creating mystery around MJ and talked about how it backfired.

 

[PoP]

They have to listen to American tabloids and media for Michael's misfortunes and the US music charts are the problems for Michael.

 

[Tony R]

I've always had this theory with MJ and the US. (Forgive me American fans)
I feel a lot of the patriotic American's felt hurt by Michael because he didn't wave an American flag every five minutes and remind everyone where he was from. Say like Bruce Springsteen or Tom Cruise in the movies for example. He was American but I don't think of him as an American in my mind he is just MJ. I find the way he was treated by SOME people in the United States a disgrace !
Especially when he is the physical embodiment of the American dream...

The track HIStory is very patriotic, even samples the National Anthem & celebrates all American heroes.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Not to be pedantic, but Bruce is hardly patriotic. 'Born in the USA' was misunderstood by many americans (including Reagan) as being about the American Dream, but it was the opposite, it was about being forgotten & mistreated by the US when soldiers went to die for it at war.

Spot on! It's one of the most misunderstood songs EVER!! It's about working-class war vets let down by the American system & left behind. When Springsteen sings "Born in the USA, I was born in the USA" He's being ironic. People hear the rolling rhythm, enthusiastic chorus & assume he's being patriotic.

I couldn't think off the top of my head a patriotic American Bruce Springsteen came to mind. I've seen him live and he spoke about home a lot and he kept mentioning the US (P.S he was amazing live). I didn't mean to offend anyone on this forum that's just my two pence.

You didn't offend anyone fellah, it's a common mistake. Springsteen does it again with the song We Take Care Of Our Own. Springsteen has a way of putting his message across that relates to working class people, while a lot of upper class & rich people just hear the uplifting choruses & are not really listening to the message per-say.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

the thing about it, the infamous names the press gave to Michael.....

they did not start in America, the negative press really started by the Australian press when Michael was preparing to perform there during the Bad Tour in 1987

the Australian press coined the term "***** *****" and then the British press took that and ran with it

American press did not start that.....