Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Bubs]

I am sure I'm in the minority; however, NO ONE will EVER make me believe that Katherine filed this lawsuit against AEG for "justice" for Michael. She attempted to SETTLE several times and was turned down by AEG. Why would a mother seeking "justice"want to settle? IF she wanted to expose AEG, why want to settle? It doesn't make any sense. Why not want restitution from the REAL killer, Conrad Murray? This lawsuit was about MONEY for her "cubs" (grown children) to have to take care of them for the rest of their lives. That's the bottomline and it is a shame that the Jackson Family supporters refuse to see that. I have said this many time and I will say it again, AEG are son-of-a-bitches, but they did not kill Michael, Conrad Murray's negligence and incompetence is the cause of Michael's death. The verdict was correct.

No, you are no minority here, and I fully agree with your post.
Katherine's side released this statement after they lost the case:
"AEG has denied for years, and continues to deny, that they hired Dr. Conrad Murray. The jury found unanimously that AEG hired Dr. Murray," Jackson said in a statement.
"We have said from the beginning that this case was a search for the truth. We found the truth. AEG hired Dr. Conrad Murray, the man who is in jail for killing Michael Jackson."

According to that statement, they were seeking the "truth" and "justice".
Where was that "truth" and "justice" when plaintiffs offered settlement?
If AEG had taken up the offer for settlement, plaintiffs wouldn't have gotten their "truth and justice", as enough money would have wiped out the need to find out the "truth and justice".

I have more respect for the side that fought for their case than the one who was in it to get pay-off.

 

[Mechi]

Some of you really like going around in circles, don't you?!

Let me tell this... as one of those who have voted they do see AEG liable (and I think I've even stated that before?! not sure though)

I do think AEG is liable (yes still).
- cuz they didn't check the doctor they've hired
- cuz them hiring and giving orders and paying the doctor did put a third party in the situation and that's why the doctor in a conflict situation (patient on one side, getting money from another side but well that's what doctors are usually in as our insurances are also not always paying the best treatment but only the cheapest often also... so that's somehow daily business?! however... it doesn't make things right to me, if that makes sense to some of you also lol) life is complicate at times and no way a simple question of either or... well to me. I can live with others seeing and handeling it differently.
... well I've stated that and other stuff before but I do not see myself in the need of going around in circles.
And that is maybe also how others do feel about this (and maybe other threads) also... I don't know.

I am not anti AEG nor Jacksons fan... I think there's no need to categorize at all... I mean why?!
I certainly dislike Randy Phillips (and one or two others at AEG) for how he did treat Michael Jackson and handled his job!

To me (as an adult person) the verdict is still ok with the evidence and argumentation given... somehow it's to me personally not even that important because I didn't want the Jackson cubs to earn any money through someone killing their brother... so somehow I can easily live with it.

I personally do believe Katherine Jackson was not given the best advice but many manipulative advices from ppl with an agenda.
I wonder why she thinks that Murray will give his money to child support and not Ferraris while her own sons do?! (sorry I just couldn't resist!!! lol)

I hate that Murray is possibly able to profit from his crime... but that's to me also a question of the (media) society we're living in soin the first place I tend to not blame others but Murray himself for this.

 

[LastTear]

Last Tear, you are incorrect. I have no issue with the family rejecting restitution AND I will not support the doctor's possible profit from his fatal crime. Several posters who were against the Jacksons' rejection of restitution have already blamed the Jacksons for the doctor's possible profit from his fatal crime via a predicted book and other similar activities. Those posts are still in this subforum for your review.

You said fans are hopeful the Murray will profit, why would they unless they support the rejected restitution? They are the only fans that it would make logical sense to be comfortable with Murray profiting, I'm not suggesting that they would be happy about it - but just accepting of it. I haven't said that any fan is hopeful that he profits, I said that I haven't seen any evidence of that, but you said that you have.

Being against the Jacksons rejection of restitution and blaming them for Murray's possible profit - is not in any way shape or form a hope that he profits. I don't know how that can be turned to mean that fans are hopeful?

 

[serendipity]

The family already supported him by rejecting restitution, period. He is free to publish books, interviews etc. without fear that he will lose anything. If that's not support I don't know what is.

I don't know any fan who would support Murray. That doesn't mean his book won't get published or the media won't publish excerpts etc.

The fans can only do so much. Jacksons had a real chance of hurting him and possibly preventing certain projects, but they chose to fight for biggeer money.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I also said previously that I believe Katherine wanted to expose AEG as a third party in her son’s passing. She was half way there as the plaintiffs did prove AEG hired the doctor. Why focus on the billions that the plaintiffs had NO guarantee they would receive even WITH a successful verdict.

Maybe you can respond to that; why was case pursued if no monies were guaranteed?

@Tygger
By the same token - this case was about truth and justice with no guarantee of financial recompense, therefore ask for a nominal amount of money (covering court costs perhaps?). And there may have been no guarantee, but there certainly there was a hope - hence the settlement requests!


Last Tear, I was clear I do believe some fans are hoping the doctor will attempt to profit from his fatal crime and I have read such posts. Your response seems to twist that a bit. I am baffled by your comment I re-quoted above. Fans made Michael a success and he was always grateful for that. The Jackson family could not solely support Michael to the level of success he achieved. The Jackson family will most likely not purchase anything the doctor would possibly peddle to profit from his fatal crime.

If the Jacksons will not support the doctor, who remains to support the doctor? It will not solely be the general public who is not particularly concerned. Some fans will play a part as they have.

Forgive me: I personally would not trust anyone who would tell another that Michael loved his fans more than his own family but, I understand if you do. Too much of an agenda there for me.[/QUOTE]

Maybe some fans do hope that he will ATTEMPT to profit from his association with and murder of Michael Jackson. But I expect that that is their hope solely to show the Jacksons how wrong they were NOT TO ASK FOR RESTITUTION.

And as much as I have concerns with the regards to the behaviour of some members of the Jackson family, I do not expect that they will EXPLICITLY support Conrad Murray financially. But by NOT SEEKING RESTITUTION, they have IMPLICITLY supported him financially. If he should ATTEMPT to profit from Michael there is no financial punitive damage. The most there can be is moral outrage on the part of the Jacksons.

Do you think it was right for Mrs Jackson to refuse restitution?

 

[Victory22]

I think Katherine and the cubs left Michael exposed to be bashed, trashed and dragged through the mud just to prove AEG hired the doctor? I think the truth is that the Jackson's have provided most of the ammunition to shoot Michael down and they have given Conrad Murray an early Christmas gift to make money off killing their loved one. The truth is that they came to AEG twice trying to negotiate a settlement that would make the entire case go away yet they claim it wasn't about the money. It doesn't add up and it smells of ruthlessness, dishonesty and manipulation.

 

[Member Service]

Thread cleaned - Your discussions have gone beyond discussing the trial, the Jackson's and AEG to once again attacking and belittling each other for your views and what you support or don't support. As we have asked many times, discuss the topic without talking down to each other. Please discuss and even debate your views without doing that to each other. (don't make it a moral issue ) Thanks.

eta
Also we have quote system in place so posts are properly quoted and can be tracked back. Please use it or at lease use the quote icon to place what you are replying to in quotation. If you don't know how just ask.

 

[MIST]

We've Got More Problems
Than We'll Ever Need
You Got Gang Violence
And Bloodshed On The Street
You Got Homeless People
With No Food To Eat
With No Clothes On Their Back
And No Shoes For Their Feet

We've Got Drug Addiction
In The Minds Of The Weak
We've Got So Much Corruption
Police Brutality
We've Got Streetwalkers
Walkin' Into Darkness
Tell Me
What Are We Doin'

Yes, what are we doing?

 

[AliCat]

I think Katherine and the cubs left Michael exposed to be bashed, trashed and dragged through the mud just to prove AEG hired the doctor? I think the truth is that the Jackson's have provided most of the ammunition to shoot Michael down and they have given Conrad Murray an early Christmas gift to make money off killing their loved one. The truth is that they came to AEG twice trying to negotiate a settlement that would make the entire case go away yet they claim it wasn't about the money. It doesn't add up and it smells of ruthlessness, dishonesty and manipulation.

Even Juror #27 succumbed to this, in regards to Randy Jackson's depositon/testimony. Randy Jackson tried to portray himself as to something he is NOT! Just ask Damon Dash, a former partner with JayZ aka hip hop mogul (this is in reference to the 2007 lawsuit filed against Michael Jackson and finance company Prescient Acquisition).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

exactly. to try and spin it around 360 degrees and say fans support murray making money when it is by katherines own words she hope that he makes money is highly insulting to all those that love and have fought for mj through the decades..its low but sadly imo not unexpected to attack the fans like it is there fault when all this has been caused by the jacksons greed. its all on them and no one else and to imply otherwise is a total contridiction of the facts

Tygger, the family already supported him by rejecting restitution, period. He is free to publish books, interviews etc. without fear that he will lose anything. If that's not support I don't know what is.

I don't know any fan who would support Murray. That doesn't mean his book won't get published or the media won't publish excerpts etc.

The fans can only do so much. Jacksons had a real chance of hurting him and possibly preventing certain projects, but they chose to fight for biggeer money.

 

[Tygger]

and I don't get the focus on the fans. Not everything will be in the hands of the fans, there will be a public as well. Katherine explained herself as she believed Murray had several kids and his money would be needed on his kids. Logically asking how does anyone or Katherine expect Murray to earn any money? His medical licenses are suspended and probably would be revoked for good - if/when his appeal hopefully gets denied. So he can't earn money from being a doctor - unless I guess he leaves US and becomes a doctor in another country. So I'm curious in that regard that what income source does people expect Murray to have other than trying to profit from Michael? Are you really expecting him for example to get a 9 to 5 job making minimum wage? and if the logic is "support Katherine" then why are the fans expected to go against Katherine's wishes of allowing Murray to earn money for his kids?

Last Tear, you insist on reversing the situation and I believe you are ignoring certain posts that clearly say the opposite for whatever your reasons. Please simply re-quote a post(s) of someone who accepted the Jacksons’ rejection of restitution AND are hopeful the doctor attempts to profit from his fatal crime as I have yet to read one.

Look at the reasoning of the above post. As a fan of the man the doctor killed, I personally do not have one concern about how the doctor generates monies for himself and his family. However, those who have thought about it “logically,” have found the only “logical” option for the doctor is to immediately attempt to profit from his fatal crime where he killed the man this board is named after.

Reviewing his threads here, I have not once read the doctor stating he would release a book only others predicting he would and even suggesting options like self-publishing. He is appealing his conviction and is seeking his licenses. The reasoning of that TMZ article I posted is not incorrect and is most likely why it was mostly ignored. The doctor has also said he would do interviews; these outlets have already interviewed him without direct payment.

Katherine never said or wished that some fans would support the doctor if he decided to profit from his fatal crime despite Elusive Moonwalker’s post and countless others very similar to that sentiment. Her decision has been twisted for reasons known to those twisting and spinning her decision.

Serendipity, again, the Jacksons decision has no effect on my own personal decision to not support this doctor if he attempts to profit. Fans had the power to make Michael the success he is and create Sullivan’s failure among others but, will cry weakness when it comes to the doctor’s attempt to profit from his fatal crime. Interesting.

The Chosen One, I have said numerous times I have no issue with the family rejecting restitution. I will not judge their decision as I am fortunate to not be in their unenviable position. However, I will not repeat it too much to spare Jamba reading those views again. laughs

The plaintiffs knew the truth as they held the evidence, settlement or not. The world, including fans, only discovered it through this civil trial. The only way to expose AEG was through the trial. The only way to punish AEG was through monies; that is the only punishment allowed in a civil trial regardless of whether the plaintiff(s)’ last names are Jacksons are not. They have not been held accountable for their part in Michael’s passing as we now know they hired the doctor that killed Michael. We shall see if the plaintiffs do indeed pursue an appeal.

Maybe some fans do hope that he will ATTEMPT to profit from his association with and murder of Michael Jackson. But I expect that that is their hope solely to show the Jacksons how wrong they were NOT TO ASK FOR RESTITUTION.

FINALLY! I have always suspected such and I congratulate you for having the courage to post what has not been said but has been a undercurrent for months. Some fans will attempt to hurt the Jacksons this way which in turn hurts Michael’s memory. I am unsure how it will make those fans feel personally about their own actions. Maybe the purpose to lash out and hurt others has more value than taking personal responsibility to protect Michael’s memory in the way a fan can. It is simply cutting off one’s nose to spite their face. I will keep my nose in this.

 

[marebear]

Unbelievable. Murray is not going to ATTEMPT anything. He is GOING TO DO IT. I don't care about the Jacksons or AEG. I care about Michael and maybe for once somebody won't trash him to make money because there is a law or something so they won't try at all. It's bad enough when others do it but for his killer to do it? It feels like Michael dying all over again. FOR ONCE something could have been done to stop that from happening. There was actually a legal way to do it and it's gone now.

As a fan of Michael Jackson, I would actually like for him to rest in peace and for people to enjoy his work and music and hopefully see what a kind and loving person he was. That is all this fan wants.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger

Last Tear, you insist on reversing the situation and I believe you are ignoring certain posts that clearly say the opposite for whatever your reasons. Please simply re-quote a post(s) of someone who accepted the Jacksons’ rejection of restitution AND are hopeful the doctor attempts to profit from his fatal crime as I have yet to read one.

How can I post something that I have not said exists, if you actually read my posts you would see that I state the the only fans that I could THINK of who would be accepting are etc. Etc. You are the one who states that you have read on this very board posts that some members are hopeful that Murray seeks to profit, why don't you go through all the pages of this thread and post some examples, because I haven't seen one.

This is should be a futile argument for you anyway as you believe that the convicted felon is going to profit anyway.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Last Tear, you insist on reversing the situation and I believe you are ignoring certain posts that clearly say the opposite for whatever your reasons. Please simply re-quote a post(s) of someone who accepted the Jacksons’ rejection of restitution AND are hopeful the doctor attempts to profit from his fatal crime as I have yet to read one.

Look at the reasoning of the above post. As a fan of the man the doctor killed, I personally do not have one concern about how the doctor generates monies for himself and his family. However, those who have thought about it “logically,” have found the only “logical” option for the doctor is to immediately attempt to profit from his fatal crime where he killed the man this board is named after.

Reviewing his threads here, I have not once read the doctor stating he would release a book only others predicting he would and even suggesting options like self-publishing. He is appealing his conviction and is seeking his licenses. The reasoning of that TMZ article I posted is not incorrect and is most likely why it was mostly ignored. The doctor has also said he would do interviews; these outlets have already interviewed him without direct payment.

Katherine never said or wished that some fans would support the doctor if he decided to profit from his fatal crime despite Elusive Moonwalker’s post and countless others very similar to that sentiment. Her decision has been twisted for reasons known to those twisting and spinning her decision.

Serendipity, again, the Jacksons decision has no effect on my own personal decision to not support this doctor if he attempts to profit. Fans had the power to make Michael the success he is and create Sullivan’s failure among others but, will cry weakness when it comes to the doctor’s attempt to profit from his fatal crime. Interesting.

The Chosen One, I have said numerous times I have no issue with the family rejecting restitution. I will not judge their decision as I am fortunate to not be in their unenviable position. However, I will not repeat it too much to spare Jamba reading those views again. laughs

The plaintiffs knew the truth as they held the evidence, settlement or not. The world, including fans, only discovered it through this civil trial. The only way to expose AEG was through the trial. The only way to punish AEG was through monies; that is the only punishment allowed in a civil trial regardless of whether the plaintiff(s)’ last names are Jacksons are not. They have not been held accountable for their part in Michael’s passing as we now know they hired the doctor that killed Michael. We shall see if the plaintiffs do indeed pursue an appeal.



FINALLY! I have always suspected such and I congratulate you for having the courage to post what has not been said but has been a undercurrent for months. Some fans will attempt to hurt the Jacksons this way which in turn hurts Michael’s memory. I am unsure how it will make those fans feel personally about their own actions. Maybe the purpose to lash out and hurt others has more value than taking personal responsibility to protect Michael’s memory in the way a fan can. It is simply cutting off one’s nose to spite their face. I will keep my nose in this.

Tygger, thank you for your response.

I have made a decision not to engage you on this. Not because I agree with your position, but because I do not want to get dragged into a vicious cycle with point and counter-point. It is obvious that you are unwilling to critically analyse the Jacksons the same way criticise AEG and the fans.

Me - I am moving on ...

 

[Tygger]

Last Tear, another twist by you.

If you believe the only fans who support the doctor being successful in any attempt to profit from his fatal crime are the fans who support the family in rejecting restitution then, supporting that argument in this subforum is extremely simple. I supported the family in rejecting restitution so find anyone of my post where I stated the doctor would be successful in his attempts to profit from his fatal crime. I will patiently wait.

The Chosen One, thank you for your response. It seems you do not like my response to you and that is fine. The Jackson made their choice and I accept it. That choice does not remove accountability from anyone else who may support this doctor if he attempts to profit from his fatal crime. Again, I will keep my nose figuratively. We will have to wait and see if the doctor will attempt to profit from his fatal crime first.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger Twist? Or deflection by you? You are very good at deflection I notice. As you seem intent on misquoting me I think I too will take my leave.

 

[serendipity]

Tygger, thank you for your response.

I have made a decision not to engage you on this. Not because I agree with your position, but because I do not want to get dragged into a vicious cycle with point and counter-point. It is obvious that you are unwilling to critically analyse the Jacksons the same way criticise AEG and the fans.

Me - I am moving on ...

Correct. It's clear to me Tygger can't give a reasonable explanation to Katherine's money-driven decision. Because anyone knows the only explanation to reject restitution is - they wanted more money! You can't really spin that.

 

[marebear]

I am sorry I can't remember this but if they had gotten the restitution against Murray could they have still sued AEG and go on with that?

 

[serendipity]

I am sorry I can't remember this but if they had gotten the restitution against Murray could they have still sued AEG and go on with that?

Yes, they could've still sued AEG. But would have received less damages if they won. So they refused restitution in order to get as much money as possible from AEG. Now they are left with nada (serves them right).

 

[marebear]

If they could do both restitution and sue AEG than they should have done it. If it's about justice for Michael it doesn't matter about the money. That's how I see it anyway. Now we have to painfully watch what Murray will do now once he gets out soon.

 

[Tygger]

Last Tear, is that your way of saying you cannot find the post even after I helped you narrow the options down? laughs

Serendipity, I had no idea the only reason for anyone to reject restitution was they were seeking more monies they were not guaranteed to receive. Panish should have reminded Katherine to say that when she testified instead of giving the answer she gave.

Not one poster here can say definitively why Katherine made any and all of her decisions. Not one. All of this is perceptions and views.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger

Last Tear, is that your way of saying you cannot find the post even after I helped you narrow the options down? laughs

Clearly I have hit a nerve with you this evening. Laughs.

How can I find a post that I never said was there? Laughs some more.

 

[marebear]

Katherine said herself that she wanted Murray to take care of his kids. As a reason for not doing restitution. She also said she filed the AEG case to find out what happened to Michael. That is some of things that she said herself. She said a lot of things on record now.

 

[Tygger]

@Tygger, I have not seen any posts that remotely appear to be fans wishing Murray would profit. There was more to my response than the part you posted, which in fact was in response to a post by Bubs. The only fans that I could see that could possibly be accepting of Murray profiting would be those who support the Jacksons in NOT accepting restitution.

This is should be a futile argument for you anyway as you believe that the convicted felon is going to profit anyway.

Here is your original posts. I helped you by narrowing down your options by reminding you I support the Jacksons in NOT accepting restitution. Did that help?

 

[serendipity]

Not one poster here can say definitively why Katherine made any and all of her decisions. Not one. All of this is perceptions and views.

Lol, I think we can in this case. Hey you are free to believe she is really concerned about Murray's kids. If that makes you feel better.

 

[ivy]

We will have to wait and see if the doctor will attempt to profit from his fatal crime first.

LOL at "wait and see". I guess you have missed or chose to not pay attention that he already have been profiting from his fatal crime, all those TV interviews, documentary, selling voice mails and so on. But I guess you don't count them because according to you they don't qualify for "direct" profit. and If you think he wouldn't continue doing that in one form or another directly or indirectly through his girlfriend then you are either extremely naive or blind.

 

[Tygger]

Serendipity, no worries. I learned months ago that when the majority view and perception is expressed, it is considered fact by the majority.

Ivy, restitution does not cover indirect profit and it was one of the reasons I supported the Jacksons rejecting it. All of those interviews, voicemails, and the documentary were discussed in this subforum. Restitution would not have stopped those happenings. The media has profited from it and it is not the Jacksons encouraging that profit. So who is?

The Jacksons do not force fans to do anything; they do not control fans’ actions or reactions.

Back to pre-trial discussions....

 

[ivy]

@tygger

we are all aware that you have no problems with "indirect" profit, you made it pretty clear. But it doesn't change the fact that indirect profit is being done at the expense of Michael. I'm sure in the future when the fans get angry with whatever Murray does, you will come here and write 14,789 times it is an "indirect" profit and nothing Jacksons do would have stopped it and so on.

the ones who are encouraging it is the media mainly and the public. It's disrespectful to even suggest that fans want or support anything from Murray. It is also not realistic to expect fans to stop it. For example TMZ doesn't give any advance notice to the fans that they would buy and publish a Murray voice mail so there's nothing that allows fans to be able to stop it. Murray's documentary despite protests have aired. Fans have already been organized to boycott Murray and they would do their best to try to stop him from profiting directly or indirectly. Unfortunately it doesn't mean they will be successful. It will also not change the fact that Jacksons did not choose to seek restitution.

As for the discussion don't worry. In 2 weeks this section would be a sub section of the trials and tribulations and discussion will mostly be over by then. After a few months this sub forum will get archived. An appeal - if filed- or any other developments would be followed at one new thread at trials & tribulations. so this is the last days of this discussion most probably. as everyone realizes some stuff came to the point of ad nauseam. Most people are either in the process of ignoring or moving on to other topics.

 

[Victory22]

Sadly we don't have to wait for Murray to do anything because he has already sold stories to TMZ to pay his "Instruments" rent and make profit off killing MJ. Stop trying to shift blame for Murray's free pass on to the fans when it was Michael's own family that refused to hold him accountable.

 

[Autumn II]

I have come to accept, somehow, that this is the only closure we are going to get. What we are left with, is HUGE, and permanent. What we are left with is Michael's incredible legacy of music, and his attempts at peace-and-healing, for the world. THAT is what, in the end, we should support, for all-time. I know that we can. It doesn't really matter if some do not agree with the verdict, or if some support or do not support the Jackson family. In the end, it is about MICHAEL. We loved him, and we love him, still, and always.

There will remain unanswered questions. For me, one of them, is that unsigned contract, and about that, we can only speculate. Murray signed it, and no one else. We can't know what that means. It might mean that at the end, all (but Murray) were having doubts. That contact came so LATE in all of this. Michael had not signed it. AEG had not signed it. We can only guess, did this mean major doubts about Murray? Doubts from Michael? From AEG? That question will remain unanswered.

Michael was not perfect. No one is. That does not diminish our love for him, for all-time.