We should support T-Mez!

angelofhope

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Hello
Although I respect fans efforts to change the charges I think by their actions they may be shooting themselves and all the fans in the foot. We all want justice for Michael but we have to work within the laws we have. If that means a higher prob of a conviction on a lesser charge then so be it. As another poster said elsewhere conspiracy and hereasy will not make it into a court of law as evidence against Murray. As I believe T-Mez said himself it' s a bitter pill to swallow but a involuntary manslaughter conviction is the best we can hope for. It's not fair but that's the legal system. After much thought I believe this to be my stance. We need to support T-Mez and pray for an involuntarry mansalughter conviction. We have to think with our minds and not our hearts on this one. It's hard but that is the situation.
 
The truth comes first.

I am supporting the truth, before I support anything or anyone else.

I really do think there is enough evidence to bump it up to voluntary manslaughter or murder 2.
 
I agree with both angelofinnocence and kasume to a point. I love Mez to bits - I agree with everything he says. But I also want the truth. Involuntary manslaughter might get us a conviction, but it's hardly justice imo. Murder 2 would most likely mean Murray would walk - but if more people are called in to testify, if more evidence is presented, if that gives us a glimpse of the truth, then it might be worth it...? We don't get justice either way. But we might know what happened.

I still don't know my definite stance on this. I just hope Murray's trial will give us answers, that's all I'm really hoping for.
 
Hello
Although I respect fans efforts to change the charges I think by their actions they may be shooting themselves and all the fans in the foot. We all want justice for Michael but we have to work within the laws we have. If that means a higher prob of a conviction on a lesser charge then so be it. As another poster said elsewhere conspiracy and hereasy will not make it into a court of law as evidence against Murray. As I believe T-Mez said himself it' s a bitter pill to swallow but a involuntary manslaughter conviction is the best we can hope for. It's not fair but that's the legal system. After much thought I believe this to be my stance. We need to support T-Mez and pray for an involuntarry mansalughter conviction. We have to think with our minds and not our hearts on this one. It's hard but that is the situation.

From the moment law is not ethical, something is very wrong and needs to be amended.
This should not prevent people from seeking what is ethically right.
Laws are made to serve people and protect ethics, not vice versa.
 
T-Mez knows what he's talking about. I trust his judgement.

Involuntary Manslaughter: Manslaughter committed during an unlawful act that isn't a felony; or during an otherwise lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection.


Unless they could prove that it was intentional (or very reckless) they would probably get nowhere with a first or second degree murder charge. (Whether or not administering propofol in a home setting would be seen as unlawful or not, I don't know. Maybe it would be seen as administering is a "lawful act" and the home setting or not having the right equipment would be seen as "an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection". I have no idea, maybe someone here could clear that up?)

Under California law, murder is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought."

The phrase "malice aforethought" is generally defined as conscious mental determination to commit an unlawful act, though such "malice" can also be "implied" when one's behavior is so reckless as to show an "abandoned and malignant heart".


There have been cases where the jury change a charge. From what I found (from California) it can happen.

Sometimes, a court will allow a jury to consider different kinds of charges based on the same set of facts surrounding the unlawful killing of a person.

The Phil Spector Trial: An example of how California homicide law can be applied.
When the jury split on the case, the judge considered adding an instruction for them to consider a charge of involuntary manslaughter instead.

During Spector's re-trial the following year, the jury was given the option of considering a verdict of either second-degree murder or involuntary manslaughter in their deliberations.


I don't know if a charge can be upgraded but seeing as judges in California have the power to allow a change of charge, if proof of intent was found I can't see why not.

Source of the quotes:http://www.handelonthelaw.com/law-a...cide-a-look-at-the-variations-in-the-law.html


Edit: I know there's evidence that could help with a second degree murder charge but I really think T-Mez would be behind it if it was worth persuing. That's just my opinion though ;)
 
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second degree is cali doesnt need malice. they have a special clause. gross disregard for human life. thats very similiar to M.S my only issue is why they went with ms and not murdr 2 based on that.as obviously murder 2 based on malice wouldnt really stand. id like to know why it was m.s and not murder 2 based on gross disregard as they are very similar. whether we will ever get an answer who knows. id also like to know if covering up the crime/scene is a sepearate charge in its self or is it just used during the m.s trial to show guilt.if not why arent there seperate charges for that.

re spector. yes its normal to allow the jury to go with a lower charge. ie give them different options but i dont believe it works the same with giving the jury a option of a higher charge. the highest charge is what the d.s charges them with. ie with murray if they wanted to go the spector route they should have charged him with murder 2 then allow the m.s option at the end if the jury felt he was negligent but not enough to prove murder 2. i dont believe u cna up the charge as obviously the defence hasnt been able to defend their client if at the end u suddenly say to the jury u can find the mguilty of murder 2 instead if u want. only way is b4 any trial starts the D.A wants to change thecharge cause of x amount of evidence comes to light. imo hes going with the lesser charge to get a conviction when then makes him set for life
 
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Sorry, I had that up before I remembered non-malice for second degree. I edited it a bit.

So they are only allowed to be given the option of lowering the charge? That doesn't seem right (not saying you're wrong, just that the system doesn't seem right). If evidence was found during a manslaughter trial that proved second degree murder would the trial have to go on as manslaughter or could it be dropped to start a new charge and trial?
 
Sorry, I had that up before I remembered non-malice for second degree. I edited it a bit.

So they are only allowed to be given the option of lowering the charge? That doesn't seem right (not saying you're wrong, just that the system doesn't seem right). If evidence was found during a manslaughter trial that proved second degree murder would the trial have to go on as manslaughter or could it be dropped to start a new charge and trial?

Great question. I've been wondering that too.
 
(Whether or not administering propofol in a home setting would be seen as unlawful or not, I don't know. Maybe it would be seen as administering is a "lawful act" and the home setting or not having the right equipment would be seen as "an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection". I have no idea, maybe someone here could clear that up?)

To my best knowledge unfortunately it is not an unlawful act. At the time of MJ's death propofol was not a controlled substance. Yes it is not appropriate to use it in a home setting without necessary precautions but as far as the law goes a doctor can prescribe, get and use it. (However they are changing the law for this).

second degree is cali doesnt need malice. they have a special clause. gross disregard for human life.

I'm doubtful if this is actually true. I did some digging in california law and I cannot find such clause. Can somebody give me a link etc that states this clause?

The below are from california penal code. Murder requires expressed or implied malice by definition.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
SECTION 187-199

187. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection.
(c) Vehicular
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...0&file=187-199

From California Jury Simplified Definitions..- IVMS includes gross negligence

Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing that happened during the commission of a misdemeanor or because of gross negligence (carelessness)

From California Jury Instructions Sheet - IVMS, without murder charge details - pg 450

To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:
1. The defendant (committed a crime that posed a high risk of death or great bodily injury because of the way in which it was committed/ [or] committed a lawful act, but acted with criminal negligence);
AND
2. The defendant’s acts caused the death of another person.

Criminal negligence involves more than ordinary carelessness, inattention, or mistake in judgment. A person acts with criminal negligence when:
1. He or she acts in a reckless way that creates a high risk of death or great bodily injury;
AND
2. A reasonable person would have known that acting in that way would create such a risk.

http://courtinfo.ca.gov/jury/criminaljuryinstructions/calcrim_juryins.pdf

The above document is a large document (with 2500 pages and slow to load) but if you search for second degree murder, all different types lists intent, conspiracy or abiding etc. similarly conscious disregard lists intent as well as a required condition. please correct me if I'm wrong.

btw I think that the main argument for Second Degree Murder is that you can charge for it by stating implied malice. Implied malice is a behavior that would surely cause a certain death in every instance that action is done.
 
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btw I think that the main argument for Second Degree Murder is that you can charge for it by stating implied malice. Implied malice is a behavior that would surely cause a certain death in every instance that action is done.

Murray's action of mixing lethal amounts of propfol with so many other drugs WITHOUT proper medical equipment is surely a behavior that would cause certain death in anyone.

So why is this not second degree?

And especially by a DOCTOR?!

All he had to say to Michael was, "This might kill you, though."

But, NO. The doctor STILL gave Michael all those medications after Michael "kept asking for them."

Or is it just that Dr. Murray didn't know how much medication it took to kill a patient, ESPECIALLY with LETHAL amount of propofol?
 
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Sorry, I had that up before I remembered non-malice for second degree. I edited it a bit.

So they are only allowed to be given the option of lowering the charge? That doesn't seem right (not saying you're wrong, just that the system doesn't seem right). If evidence was found during a manslaughter trial that proved second degree murder would the trial have to go on as manslaughter or could it be dropped to start a new charge and trial?

I'm pretty sure a motion for mistrial can be filed, and if the judge approves then it starts all over again, not sure if new jury is then assembled?

There absolutely HAS TO be a way to up the charges if new evidence comes to light, I mean - not all evidence might always be available right away?
 
Our modest knowledge about the suspect and the evidence are only from the released papers (authorities) and the media (tabloid).

I can't get why ppl always rhymes together some stuff about an action which they never saw himself or about a person who they never spoke in reality: Murray / the Investigators / the forensic scientists etc.

How do we know what questions will be asked, what answers will be given, which strategies both sides will use etc.pp.

Why we cannot wait for the prelim to make conclusions, then we maybe have more basic informations to lean on?

****************

btw. Thomas Mesereau is an intelligent and an experienced attorney.
I believe him and his assessment until today more than any fans who have no real idea about the law and are only hungry for vengeance or satisfaction and make silly actions *imo* without using their brains.
I can't understand why this id**t Oxman can't shut up; the case should be given to Tom. Period!
 
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i think T Mez just commented, so he doesnt really need support, and he didnt see the evidence and doesnt have the materials on the case. Unfortunately (or fotunately) he's not prosecution anymore. But i am eternally grateful to him and i will keep sending him flowers as i did since 13/06 every year on that day.
 
Sorry, I had that up before I remembered non-malice for second degree. I edited it a bit.

So they are only allowed to be given the option of lowering the charge? That doesn't seem right (not saying you're wrong, just that the system doesn't seem right). If evidence was found during a manslaughter trial that proved second degree murder would the trial have to go on as manslaughter or could it be dropped to start a new charge and trial?

id presume if evidence came to light during the trial the pros could file a motion for the trial to be stopped and for them tot refile the charges. but i ment no interms of at the end of the trial the jury suddenly being given the option of murder instead of M.S a defendent cant defend themselves if they dont know what charge they are facing. u cant defend yourself against m.s only to find at the end the jury has a choice of finding u guilty of murder instead
 
its been posted many time with quotes from websites

a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_second_degree.html

I believe like I said before they are saying "implied malice" by that definition.

Here's a little bit more info about that.

Murder needs malice aforethought. Malice is defined as
i)- Intent to kill,
ii)- Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,
iii)- Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or
iv)- Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).

and yes they have used the (iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life as enough reason for second degree murder in California.

The needed condition for this charge is the unjustifiably high risk , meaning that this action will result in almost certain death in every instance that it is done.

for example you need to have a heart monitor when you administer propofol as a precaution, but if you don't have the monitor do the people die 90% - 100% of the time? I guess that's the tricky part in this whole IVMS and 2nd degree murder debate.
 
i think T Mez just commented, so he doesnt really need support, and he didnt see the evidence and doesnt have the materials on the case. Unfortunately (or fotunately) he's not prosecution anymore. But i am eternally grateful to him and i will keep sending him flowers as i did since 13/06 every year on that day.

not even murray's lawyer has nowhere near all the material.
 
I want Murray convicted in trial. I trust that qualified lawyers know how best to achieve a conviction. No matter how badly Michael's fans want to see Murray's head roll, it would be negligent of the prosecution to push for a conviction that they have insufficient evidence to prove. Better that he is convicted for Manslaughter than to walk free of any charge. Now that would be a crime!
 
I believe like I said before they are saying "implied malice" by that definition.

Here's a little bit more info about that.

Murder needs malice aforethought. Malice is defined as
i)- Intent to kill,
ii)- Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,
iii)- Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or
iv)- Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).

and yes they have used the (iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life as enough reason for second degree murder in California.

The needed condition for this charge is the unjustifiably high risk , meaning that this action will result in almost certain death in every instance that it is done.

for example you need to have a heart monitor when you administer propofol as a precaution, but if you don't have the monitor do the people die 90% - 100% of the time? I guess that's the tricky part in this whole IVMS and 2nd degree murder debate.

yeah its a thin line. i guess if there wasnt such a difference in sentencing it wouldnt matter so much.considering how outside of the usa its kinda laughed at for its OTT sentencing that heres one charge/sentence that isnt enough and typcial that murray gets it
 
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