What happened to Michael in the late nineties -2003?

[ScreenOrigami]

Yes, diagnosed. So there's no reason to speculate otherwise.

Michael kept his medical history as private as possible. He was diagnosed early on in his life with discoid lupus, based on the butterfly rash on his face. Lupus is a disease that often progresses over time. It’s not uncommon for discoid Lupus to progress to SLE which comes with a wide variety of unspecific symptoms. In fact, it’s not even uncommon for systemic Lupus to go completely unnoticed, while the skin rashes are of course very obvious. I think it’s only fair to look at which of his problems may actually be a part of the bigger picture.

We can’t know for sure, of course, but when you look at the symptoms on the website of the Lupus Foundation of America, you’ll notice that they all make sense in regards to Michael’s issues:

===

Extreme fatigue (feeling tired all the time)
Pain or swelling in the joints
Swelling in the hands, feet, or around the eyes
Headaches
Low fevers
Sensitivity to sunlight or fluorescent light
Chest pain when breathing deeply

Many people with lupus also have problems that affect their skin and hair, like:

A butterfly-shaped rash on the cheeks and nose
Hair loss
Sores in the mouth or nose
Fingers and toes turning white or blue and feeling numb when a person is cold or stressed

===

https://www.lupus.org/resources/common-symptoms-of-lupus

So, this is not wild speculation on my part, but an attempt at a halfway educated guess.

There are plenty of photos where Michael’s fingertips are kinda blueish, for example.

Here’s more info on the difficulty to diagnose Lupus: https://www.lupus.org/resources/diagnosing-lupus-guide

 

[Electro]

One legitimate question that arises is that if his accident was an actual one, then why did he not promptly inform his lead defense lawyer Thomas Mesereau about it?

Thomas Mesereau had no clue at all about his client’s delay to the court (on such a crucial day) and he was searching for him by making frantic phone calls for over an hour.

Anyway, I leave that here, but personally I have serious doubts about it being an actual one, especially considering the day that it happened.

Well, who was with Michael during that morning and at the hospital?
If he fell and was in pain, he certainly relied on people around him to inform whoever needed to be informed.
Was Brian Oxman with him? Was it him who failed to inform Meserreau? (Why was Oxman fired by Mesereau again?)

More details are needed to explain this.
To jump straight to "he faked it" is just once again open bias on your part.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Here’s Michael speaking at the “Light the Way for Lupus” event on October 1st, 3003. He never attended any Vitiligo events, for all we know, so this might also be an indication to the role the illness played in his life. No hard facts, of course, but it all adds up, in my opinion.

 

[Anna]

Michael kept his medical history as private as possible. He was diagnosed early on in his life with discoid lupus, based on the butterfly rash on his face. Lupus is a disease that often progresses over time. It’s not uncommon for discoid Lupus to progress to SLE which comes with a wide variety of unspecific symptoms. In fact, it’s not even uncommon for systemic Lupus to go completely unnoticed, while the skin rashes are of course very obvious. I think it’s only fair to look at which of his problems may actually be a part of the bigger picture.

We can’t know for sure, of course, but when you look at the symptoms on the website of the Lupus Foundation of America, you’ll notice that they all make sense in regards to Michael’s issues:

===

Extreme fatigue (feeling tired all the time)
Pain or swelling in the joints
Swelling in the hands, feet, or around the eyes
Headaches
Low fevers
Sensitivity to sunlight or fluorescent light
Chest pain when breathing deeply

Many people with lupus also have problems that affect their skin and hair, like:

A butterfly-shaped rash on the cheeks and nose
Hair loss
Sores in the mouth or nose
Fingers and toes turning white or blue and feeling numb when a person is cold or stressed

===

https://www.lupus.org/resources/common-symptoms-of-lupus

So, this is not wild speculation on my part, but an attempt at a halfway educated guess.

There are plenty of photos where Michael’s fingertips are kinda blueish, for example.

Here’s more info on the difficulty to diagnose Lupus: https://www.lupus.org/resources/diagnosing-lupus-guide

Michael's known symptoms match discoid and that was his diagnosis. You shouldn't just assume he had SLE and then talk about it like it's fact, which is what you did in your original post. It's just encouraging misinformation.

90% of patients with SLE are female and also if Michael had those kind of fatigue issues he could not have worked like he did or danced like he did. Even simple, slow exercise would have been a problem.

 

[Anna]

Here’s Michael speaking at the “Light the Way for Lupus” event on October 1st, 3003. He never attended any Vitiligo events, for all we know, so this might also be an indication to the role the illness played in his life. No hard facts, of course, but it all adds up, in my opinion.

Discoid lupus is a type of lupus, so how does this event prove he had SLE?

Speculating about Michael's potential health conditions is so abhorrent. It's no better than a tabloid. Why his own fans consider this acceptable is beyond me.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Again, I’m not making wild speculations. What I’m saying is, that before someone assumes that he faked health incidents, we should look at what the actual reason for the incident might have been. And many of these could have a connection to a progressing Lupus disease as well as the side effects of common treatments.

In a thread that’s trying to connect the dots of “what happened to Michael” in his later years, if you really want to get to the bottom of it, you have to look at his health issues. It’s simply where the debate will go when you start such a topic.

This has nothing to do with spreading misinformation.

Also, while the disease is in remission, patients are basically symptom free, which is why the effects aren’t noticeable all the time.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Discoid lupus is a type of lupus, so how does this event prove he had SLE?

I literally said that it’s not a hard fact.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I been a MJ fan for a long time now i already know that everything your read is not true. not only Michael but everybody on this earth until you have proof and not to mention people can twist things too. what somebody else said won't probably be what the first person said to the last person.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Do you happen to have the transcript? I don’t think I’ve seen it yet.
--------
Ive never seen the transcripts. Do they excist in the public domain? I just remember the info from media and fan reports at the time. That quote always stuck in my head for obvious reasons 😃

 

[ScreenOrigami]

In 1977, Michael suffered a documented lung collapse.

The medical term for a lung collapse is “pneumothorax”.

“A pneumothorax is an abnormal collection of air in the pleural space between the lung and the chest wall.”
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumothorax

“Pneumothorax is a rare pleuropulmonary manifestation of systemic lupus erythematosus.”
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20601838/

Lupus can affect the lungs in several other ways, including but not limited to Pneumonitis:

“The term for inflammation within the lung tissue is pneumonitis. The symptoms of pneumonitis that you may experience are fever, chest pain, shortness of breath, and cough.”
Source: https://www.lupus.org/resources/how-lupus-affects-the-lungs-and-pulmonary-system

Chronic pneumonitis and scarring of the lungs were confirmed in the autopsy:

“When inflammation in the lungs is chronic, it can cause scarring. This scar tissue can prevent oxygen from moving easily from your lungs into your blood and may cause diffuse (widespread) interstitial lung disease. The symptoms that you may experience include a chronic dry cough, chest pain, and difficulty breathing during physical activity.”
Source: https://www.lupus.org/resources/how-lupus-affects-the-lungs-and-pulmonary-system

Is it possible that this is all just a coincidence? Sure. But we have to at least consider the possibility that some of Michael’s issues were related to health issues that weren’t made public.

Shortness of breath and chest pain could also be one of the reasons for his increasing reliance on lip syncing. I’m not saying that it was one of the reasons, but it is a possibility.

Before we accuse Michael of lying or being lazy we should factor all of these possibilities in.

 

[Electro]

Btw, here's what Michael said to Jesse Jackson about the fall on "Pyjama Day":

"I was coming out of the shower and I fell and all my body weight — I'm pretty fragile — all my body weight fell against my rib cage," Jackson said. "And I bruised my lung very badly."

He said the injury has caused him to cough up blood and was so painful that it brought him to tears in court one day when he was seen wiping his eyes with a tissue. He said he remains under a doctor's care.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/mar/28/michaeljacksontrial.music

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Michael had alot of health problems. poor dude.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Btw, here's what Michael said to Jesse Jackson about the fall on "Pyjama Day"

He hadn’t fully recovered when he gave that interview 17 days after the incident.

“[…] I’m in pain as we speak and ah, I’ve been going to court everyday in immense pain and agonizing pain. And I sit there – and I’m strong, I try to be as strong as I can. So I can, ahh, but what we are looking for is the coughing of blood now. The doctor said I should – he said it’s still very dangerous as we speak, and if I cough the blood, he said it’s a very dangerous thing, so we’re, we’re still watching it very closely.”

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o18NBO68SsI?start=129" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Addressing the accusations that he faked it:

Jesse: The cynics said you were faking. And it seems that the judge is [sic] will not even willing to believe you, even though you had just left the hospital.

Michael: You know the – there’s no faking with this at all. I mean there was a scan done and you could see, uhhh, the swelling on my whole rib cage, I mean, uh, it was you could see it and it’s bright red. And how it, it [the fall] busted my chin, and it put a huge gash over my forehead, blood, it was er, it was very bad actually. And er, but errr, we’ve treating it actually, I do have some medicine for it, but we are watching it very closely.

===

Those days in court must have been Hell on Earth for him, yet people point their fingers and laugh and accuse him of lying. It’s a disgrace. :mat::no:

 

[ScreenOrigami]

By the way, I wish we didn&#8217;t have threads like this at all, but since we do I&#8217;m not gonna leave the playing field to the Michael doubters.

 

[Anna]

There's no excuse for cruelty but you can't blame people for being skeptical. I mean the timing was incredible and it wasn't Michael's first incident during the trial either.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

There's no excuse for cruelty but you can't blame people for being skeptical.

Skepticism is a good thing, but we always have to look at all possibilities, including that someone might simply be telling the truth.

I mean the timing was incredible

Any other day during the trial would most likely have not resulted in less ridicule. Also, as far as I recall, Michael actually wanted to look Gavin in the eye when he told his lies. It was his first reaction when he heard who the accuser was. He was furious, and he certainly wasn&#8217;t afraid to face his accuser.

I can&#8217;t recall the source right now, but I&#8217;m sure I can find it if there are doubts.

and it wasn't Michael's first incident during the trial either.

What were the other incidents?

 

[Anna]

What were the other incidents?

Well there was the flu when jury selection was supposed to take place.

 

[wednesday]

Gavin didnt even testify on pj day

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Well there was the flu when jury selection was supposed to take place.

Is the defendant supposed to be present during jury selection? I thought that was optional. Michael attended more court proceedings than he actually had to.

Gavin didnt even testify on pj day

It was day two, direct and cross examination:

9 PLAINTIFF'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10

11 ARVIZO, Gavin-Anton 1536-SN
(cont'd)
12
1608-SN 1686-M
13 (cont'd)

So, yeah, if the reason would have been to avoid Gavin, he would have to have &#8220;faked&#8221; the incident a day earlier.

EDIT: You can find this in the document &#8220;03-10-05_FINAL__Gavin_day_2___Tom_X_30_min_.txt&#8221; of the court transcripts that are available in the community.

 

[Anna]

Is the defendant supposed to be present during jury selection? I thought that was optional. Michael attended more court proceedings than he actually had to.

Judge said he had to be there - https://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/15/jackson.trial/index.html

 

[ScreenOrigami]

So, I looked it up and it appears to me that the court waived the defendant&#8217;s presence on some days, but not on others.

The day that Michael went to the hospital with the flu was February 15th, 2005, which appears to have been day five of the jury selection process. So, a pretty insignificant day that in my opinion no one would go to the hospital for just to avoid it. It also appears that some of the prospective jurors were excused due to illness as well &#8211; which is altogether not very surprising since February is right in the middle of flu season.

Source: Minute orders from 2005-02-15

At this point the jury selection had already been postponed once due to a death in Tom&#8217;s family.

Source: https://www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2005/2/8/19876044/jury-selection-delayed-in-michael-jackson-trial

 

[Anna]

Yes, well I'm not suggesting anything. But it's an incident that happened that caused a delay for a week.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Yes, well I'm not suggesting anything. But it's an incident that happened that caused a delay for a week.

Yeah, but these things happen. Tom Mesereau had a death in the family, and this also delayed jury selection.

Also, not meaning to criticize you, but to me this sounded like you were suggesting a connection:

There's no excuse for cruelty but you can't blame people for being skeptical. I mean the timing was incredible and it wasn't Michael's first incident during the trial either.

Just a misunderstanding, obviously, but that&#8217;s why I replied with the minute orders and all.

 

[Anna]

Also, not meaning to criticize you, but to me this sounded like you were suggesting a connection

Yes, that's precisely my point. That there was a previous incident during the trial that could make some people more skeptical of the fall.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Yes, that's precisely my point. That there was a previous incident during the trial that could make some people more skeptical of the fall.

Yep, a misunderstanding on my part. Doesn&#8217;t hurt to have the documents here anyway. Someone may find them helpful.

 

[Mikky Dee]

It is possible for bad things to happen at unfortunate times. He was certainly under a lot of stress. It's also possible he did it deliberately on a subconscious level. But we will never know. And like I said, there is no proof he faked it, so I think it's only fair to take it for what was presented — an accident.

Also, the nature of your posts and the way you write gives off the impression that you are not actually a fan. And that's not an accusation but it's something that you should be aware of, because as long as you continue with this peculiar attitude it's going to cause friction with other members.

I agree completely. The constant use of the full name, "Michael Jackson", rather than Michael or MJ makes the posts sound like an impersonal expository text and they are written as though they are undisputed facts.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

If you go in with a negative and sceptical attitude then you will always think that before anything else. I guess when the media ingrain into the public for decades,all part of the dehumanizing process that hes a faker a liar not human so how could he get ill (even when he has lots of health issues compaired to the average joe) or have accidents which then leads to him been a abuser a criminal someone not to be believed or trusted. then dont be surprised when theres constant scepticism.something i would expect by the general public as they are taken in by the medias agenda but you would expect different of the "community " i guess some all thought the same june 25th..... and we know how that ended.

Re above post. Agree. As if a copy and paste job of a media article or a JRT book

 

[wonderouzmj]

What were the other incidents?

The entire remember the time live performance. I read somewhere that he faked it & when the show was over, he threw the crutches down & said it's a miracle or its magic or something.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I would like to mention at this point another accident (collapse, to be exact) that it was apparently faked on his part in order to get out of a certain commitment.

It does not belong to that period (late &#8216;90s - 2003), but it shows a pattern of apparently faked accident on his part.

I am talking about his 1995 HBO &#8216;One Night Only&#8217; performance, where Michael Jackson collapsed during the rehearsals.

Michael Jackson was informed that his 1995 HBO &#8216;One Night Only&#8217; performance was not going to save his &#8216;HIStory&#8217; album which at the time was steadily falling off the charts.

Also, Michael Jackson sensed the lukewarm reception that this performance was going to have in USA, so he apparently felt the need for a much stronger way to capture people&#8217;s attention by faking a collapse.

He did not even re-schedule that performance for some time later, as he should have.

Eventually, his collapse during the rehearsals made big headlines all over the world, and people were talking about him, and even they were feeling sympathy for him.

There were also associates from his own camp who thought at the time that his collapse was a fake, staged act (in other words, just another one of his old tricks).

 

[mj_frenzy]

There was also his collapse on June 3rd, 1990, which apparently was another faked one in order to avoid certain commitments (it again indicates a pattern of faked accidents on his part).

Bob Jones explained what happened in great detail.

Michael Jackson at the time was about to appear at the opening of two grand theme parks, one from Disney and the other one from Universal.

American businessman Michael Eisner (from Disney) told Michael Jackson to not attend the opening of David Geffen’s Universal’s theme park, otherwise he would write him off from Disney.

Michael Eisner was not on good terms with David Geffen.

So, Michael Jackson along with Bob Jones came up with a solution: he would not attend any of these two openings because of alleged chest pains that made him be admitted to Saint John's Health Center (in Santa Monica) for some days.

And it worked like a charm for one more time.