Where Invincible went wrong

[Hurley509]

Well if that stopped anybody from making music, there would have been very few records released. Not only were many artists doing drugs and/or drank alcohol a lot, so were the label people, managers, concert promoters, radio DJs, roadies, producers, etc. That was during the entire time the recording industry existed. Drugs like LSD are one of the reasons 1960s psychedelic music existed. There's the disco era Studio 54 cocaine parties and so on. A lot of artists who were praised by critics were doing drugs (The Beatles, Eric Clapton, Miles Davis, Elton John, Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye, Funkadelic, etc). Some would trash hotel rooms and other crazy antics such as Ozzy Osbourne snorting ants & the Fleetwood Mac soap opera. I think Keith Richards had his blood replaced several times and snorted his father's (who had been cremated) ashes. The slogan of rock music was "sex, drugs, and rock n roll". Mike's buddies Elizabeth Taylor & Sammy Davis Jr. have done drugs too.

There's a difference between taking recreational drugs and being inspired and taking medicinal drugs and being barely able to operate. There's a big difference to how pain killers effect the mind to how LSD does.

At the time YRMW was released, Kylie Minogue dominated the charts with a very catchy song called Can’t Get You Out of My Head.
Michael would've needed something like this. That's why I would've picked Hollywood Tonight as the first single, produced by Teddy Riley.

Still cant get that song out of my head. YRMW was a bit too middle of the road. If I am picking the first song from the album in retrospect I am going for Whatever Happens. It is so different to anything Michael had done before and given the hits Santana was having at around the same time, it was on trend.

Hollywood Tonight would not have been a good song to put out in 2001, I don't care what you think. It would be just as downplayed and ignored these days. None of the songs MJ could've put out would've done well at all, even Billie Jean 2 wouldn't do what his earlier records had done. It's barely due to the music, okay.

The narrative became that he was washed up and not as good as he had been since the 80s. If Dangerous and Bad fell victim to that, what makes you think anything else would penetrate that?

I don't entirely agree with this. I think if Michael had dropped a genuinely great song it would have done well. I don't think the US was ready to "forgive" Michael in 1995, but You Are Not Alone debuted at number 1. The problem wasn't so much the narrative that he was washed up. It is more the 'reality' that he was washed up. I mean that in the kindest way. I think Michael could have produced a hit album at some point in his latter years but the execution of Invincible is off. The song he should have released is Whatever Happens.

And it's also his whole image at the time as well. It's easy to be called someone washed up if they look like they're off the planet and vacant in the eyes, have fallen victim to a string of misguided plastic surgeries and their opening single sounds like they're paying homage to their own past. Maybe that was by design for Sony?

I hear stories now of them telling him not to do the vocal ticks, not to wear his military regalia, to tone down and normalize his style and I think no advice could be more misguided. They wanted Michael Jackson not to be Michael Jackson and they're going to be surprised that we get an album that is basically Michael Jackson-lite?

Maybe they wanted a relatable Michael Jackson but I think they should have realized what must now be so obvious - Michael WAS NOT RELATABLE. You couldn't expect him to be. You're not going to be able to sell Michael as an every day, working man, looking after his kids. Not after everything everyone knew about him at that point. You cant wash away the "Wacko Jacko" stereotype so I think they should have leant into it.

Michael Jackson, the greatest show on earth.... not Michael Jackson, your next door neighbour.

I think Invincible needed to be bombastic to succeed. You needed undeniable music that punched through the speakers and through any preconception anyone had of him. Instead we got a very "safe" and over-produced, formulaic album produced by the kids who wish they were Michael Jackson. It was a Sony album, not a Michael Jackson album and it suffered because of it.

Think of when Scream dropped - it's a song that demands an opinion of you. It's aggressive. It's upbeat. You either love it or you hate it. You Rock My World was way too "meh" to achieve the goal.

I think Whatever Happens would have leant itself well to a film clip, Santana guest appearance and crossover appeal.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

The song he should have released is Whatever Happens.

You won't get an argument out of me on Whatever Happens being a great single worthy tune.

But at the end of the day it wasn't MJs choice to put that or YRMW as 1st. It would've been Unbreakable. And that's a strong song like Scream, it's pretty much Bad 2.0. MJ was well aware of the formula.

And his idea for a video would've been something CGI and alien so he wouldn't have been trying to play up himself or an every-man angle, quite the opposite. Maybe he would've been more focused if he had been allowed to do what he wanted. If timeline is right, MJ appeared buzzed and high after Sony's machinations started, not after. In 2000 he was quite alright still. His appearance had changed, but I mean, he just looked 40 tbh. It wasn't a "bad" look. Still, he wouldn't have emphasized himself anyway. He didn't even think he should've been in the Cry video anyway, for crying out loud.

And, maybe this is a bad faith argument, but there have been songs post Invincible and all of them have done worse in the charts than YRMW and Invincible era stuff. Hold My Hand barely cracked top 100, though sure, it leaked, and, Casio drama. HT, same thing, but it didn't do well. Xscape was much farther divorced from all that, and all those great Invincible outtakes.. still didn't do so hot. And sure, "they changed it", but it's still music, still his singing. LNFSG did better than YRMW and that's just barely, and that's because "It's classic MJ", only even more so, literally an 80s outtake.

So it's really just not fair anyway you slice it tbh.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I'm sure if Bruno Mars, Lizzo, or Bad Bunny released it right now, it wouldn't be ignored, lol. Even if they just removed Mike's vocals and sang over the exact same track. Bruno's & Lizzo's music tend to be retro sounding anyway, especially Silk Sonic which has Bootsy Collins on a song. Bootsy is in his 70s. Uptown Funk is basically Morris Day type lyrics & sound and one of the songs he did with Cardi B (Finesse) is 1980s New Jack Swing. The music video even copies the 1990s TV show In Living Color. Jennifer Lopez was one of the Fly Girls dancers on the show and so was Carrie Ann one of the judges on Dancing With The Stars.

Hollywood Tonight already had its chance.

 

[DuranDuran]

Hollywood Tonight already had its chance.

So what? There were 2 songs that were released around 1980 or 1981, When I'm With You by Sheriff & At This Moment by Billy Vera. Neither song did much. A few years later, the songs were re-released and became Top 10 hits in the USA. At This Moment became popular when it got used on the then popular sitcom Family Ties. It was the same exact versions, the 2 songs weren't re-recorded or remixed.

As far as Hollywood Tonight goes, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Michael Jackson was pretty much way over the age limit for Top 40 and it didn't have any features. It's rare for songs released years after someone's death to get Top 40 radio airplay anyhow. Notice that the 2 songs that had currently popular artists were popular hits (Love Never Felt So Good with Justin Timberlake, Don't Matter To Me with Drake). With the Akon collab, Akon's popularity was beginning to wane around that time, so he wasn't really hot like Justin & Drake. I'd guess if Hold My Hand was done with Usher, Beyoncé, or even Chris Brown instead of Akon, it would have hit the Top 10. Radio at the time would have never ignored Beyoncé, and the Beyhive would have helped it, lol.

 

[Hurley509]

So what? There were 2 songs that were released around 1980 or 1981, When I'm With You by Sheriff & At This Moment by Billy Vera. Neither song did much. A few years later, the songs were re-released and became Top 10 hits in the USA. At This Moment became popular when it got used on the then popular sitcom Family Ties. It was the same exact versions, the 2 songs weren't re-recorded or remixed.

As far as Hollywood Tonight goes, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Michael Jackson was pretty much way over the age limit for Top 40 and it didn't have any features. It's rare for songs released years after someone's death to get Top 40 radio airplay anyhow. Notice that the 2 songs that had currently popular artists were popular hits (Love Never Felt So Good with Justin Timberlake, Don't Matter To Me with Drake). With the Akon collab, Akon's popularity was beginning to wane around that time, so he wasn't really hot like Justin & Drake. I'd guess if Hold My Hand was done with Usher, Beyoncé, or even Chris Brown instead of Akon, it would have hit the Top 10. Radio at the time would have never ignored Beyoncé, and the Beyhive would have helped it, lol.

You're talking about re-releasing a song some 30 years later, and the song going viral for other reasons. Heaven Can Wait is doing exactly that. But I am not sure how that correlates with Hollywood Tonight or what it is about the song that, after an official release it warrants another go at it. Was the song really that good? No. And are we really that removed from the song that releasing it again makes any sense?

Also no. What would be the point of re-release exactly? It did its time and it didn't land. The best you could hope for is it does what Heaven Can Wait is currently doing, and that the people for whatever reason find it themselves. For Hollywood Tonight, I don't think they will. I think we've seen the last of it.

I am not sure how MJ was over the age limit for top 40. I also don't buy that artists can't have hits long after their death. Elvis "Little Less Conversation" springs to mind. With a reworked beat it's entirely possible to have a hit song but the question for me is is the market already oversaturated with Michael Jackson such that he wont have a posthumous comeback hit?

Bare with me here - you still hear Michael Jackson everywhere. I am not sure what it is like in other countries but here in Australia if you've got a dancefloor, you're getting Michael Jackson a couple of times a night. If you've got a radio playing contemporary music, you've got Michael Jackson. He's gone absolutely nowhere. Whereas with Elvis, in 2000(ish) when his music hit, he took a little more sourcing out to find. There was a novelty to hearing Elvis again and then for a reworked beat to resonate with the youth. It was all very kitsch.

So while I think there could be another Michael Jackson hit to come at some point, I feel like now isn't the time. The shadow of Leaving Neverland still hangs over him. I kind of get why the Estate has moved away from the music and is working on the Thriller documentary, the biopic, the stage shows, there is still work to do on Michael's image. Once that is done and once there is a bit of quiet before the storm, I think with the right song, there could be another Michael Jackson hit.

I'll agree on the Akon thing. Hold My Hand is a "nice" song but it's really just fluff. He released worse songs in his last years than HMH but he also released better. It's pleasant but it's more schmaltz and I think Michael got WAY too schmaltzy from Dangerous onwards. There was something "cool" about Michael in the 80s, even slightly rebellious if not within a bit of a family friendly paradigm. All the crotch grabbing and the bravado. He was groovy, he was funky, you could sell him as something of a ladies man in some sort of way. His persona post Dangerous reminds me a bit of when Mr Burns is on that medication and they think he's an alien.

"I bring you Love!"

I think future releases really need to tap into the more edgy side of Michael Jackson - the 'cool' side. We can't do another Heal the World. The world will cringe.

 

[DuranDuran]

You're talking about re-releasing a song some 30 years later, and the song going viral for other reasons.

But I didn't say anything about re-releasing Mike's version. I said that if Hollywood Tonight was released today by Bruno Mars or Lizzo, it would get radio airplay. It doesn't matter if the original was successful or not. A lot of Whitney Houston's hits were remakes of little known songs, to the point that a lot of people don't know they are covers. Elvis Presley covers generally sold more than the versions too. Also I don't understand the idea that hit songs have some kind of special quality, those people must have not listened to the radio much. The "special quality" is payola. Drake has over 200 songs that made the Hot 100 and over 60 Top 10s, which is more than anybody else. Does that mean Drake's music is better than every single other recording artist in history?

 

[Salami]

I wonder what he’d think about Invincible being the one to cause all the conversation years later.

 

[Hot_Street]

Songs like Unbreakable and Threatened were difficult to relate to for casuals radio listeners. Not everyone is familiar with Michaels life.
But I understand why Unbreakable was one of Michaels favourites at that time. The life he had, the childhood, the attacks of the media, all that helped him, to deal better with the allegations. His life made him resilient, made him survive.

 

[Hurley509]

Doesn't mean Drake's music is "better" than everyone else but certainly means he understands how to sell his product and that his music resonates with a large audience. I am not sure how a Michael Jackson fan could make the claim against Drake's success knowing that we all tend to hold onto Michael's sales figures as further evidence of his greatness.

As for Hollywood Tonight, the song is just a chorus. It's a catch chorus of an unrealized song. Could Lizzo or Bruno Mars take that chorus, build a song around it and have a chart hit? Probably. But I am not sure why they would do that, and I am not sure why you think so highly of Hollywood Tonight specifically. There are a lot of Michael songs that didn't get the love they deserved that could easily be remade. Hollywood Tonight is probably near the bottom of the pack.

The reason Hollywood Tonight was ignored, despite official release and semi-reasonable promotion, is that, as a song, it wasn't that good. A catchy hook, a very awkward rap, and a couple of verses that have been mixed in bizarrely to mask over whatever he was actually trying to say, over a beat that feels like a caricature of the music Michael used to make rather than being in any way original. All Hollywood Tonight had was a catchy chorus but you can tell it was a long, long way off of Mike taking it out of the oven.

 

[Hurley509]

Songs like Unbreakable and Threatened were difficult to relate to for casuals radio listeners. Not everyone is familiar with Michaels life.
But I understand why Unbreakable was one of Michaels favourites at that time. The life he had, the childhood, the attacks of the media, all that helped him, to deal better with the allegations. His life made him resilient, made him survive.

I actually can't listen to Unbreakable in full. It's just a really jarring sound. It's different. There seems to be a lot of fans that actually like it. But personally I'd rather have my ears nailed to a floorboard than listen to it.

 

[Hot_Street]

I actually can't listen to Unbreakable in full. It's just a really jarring sound. It's different. There seems to be a lot of fans that actually like it. But personally I'd rather have my ears nailed to a floorboard than listen to it.

I like the song and rhythm, very catchy and powerful.
And if you have a bad time, Unbreakable might be the right song for you.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I wonder what he’d think about Invincible being the one to cause all the conversation years later.

That's gonna be the next thread on Invincible.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

The reason Hollywood Tonight was ignored, despite official release and semi-reasonable promotion, is that, as a song, it wasn't that good....All Hollywood Tonight had was a catchy chorus but you can tell it was a long, long way off of Mike taking it out of the oven.

I don't agree. At all.

 

[DuranDuran]

we all tend to hold onto Michael's sales figures as further evidence of his greatness.

Who is "we"? I've never done that with any performer. Going by that logic then Vanilla Ice is superior to Aretha Franklin, Mahalia Jackson, Miles Davis, etc. Also the majority of the Top 50 highest sellers are white males. So going by what you're saying white guys are greater than women artists or non-white artists. Going by sales means that McDonald's is the best food in the world and Walmart/Amazon are the best stores. The main reason that Thriller sold what it did is that he was signed to Epic Records who could pay the payola required. If Mike had been signed to a small indie label like Aligator, Malaco, or Hi, the album wouldn't have done anything much. Because those labels don''t have the power, reach, and can't afford to promote to the same extent as CBS Records/Epic. They wouldn't have been able to hire Quincy Jones & his team or Paul McCartney in the first place, so the album would not have been made. Why do you think the average hit usually comes from major labels and not small ones?

Also going by sales, then "Michael Jackson" must be great, but "The Jacksons" which has Michael Jackson in it are apparently not great. Albums by New Kids On The Block, Bobby Brown, Madonna, Prince, MC Hammer, Wham!, etc have sold more than any individual album by The Jacksons or Jackson 5. The highest selling Jacksons album is Victory, and Milli Vanilli's debut album sold more than that. So that would give credence to the idea that Michael Jackson was successful because of Quincy Jones, which The Jacksons records does not have and neither do the solo albums after Bad.

 

[DuranDuran]

As for Hollywood Tonight, the song is just a chorus.

Sweet Dreams by Eurythmics and Give Up the Funk by Parliament basically just repeats the same lines over and over and they were hit songs.

 

[Hot_Street]

Unbreakable and 2000 Watts have the biggest punch on Invincible, but lyricwise they're not mainstream enough for a first single I guess.
Heartbreaker has more energy than YRMW, it still sounds fresh and it's about love. Maybe Heartbreaker with a crazy video like Justins Rock Your Body would've worked.

 

[Salami]

I didn’t realise people weren’t keen on YRMW until I came here. It makes me sad.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

If the songs were good enough, they would be hits.

Hollywood tonight is not a great song so did poorly, along with other tracks from the 2000s and onwards.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

I didn’t realise people weren’t keen on YRMW until I came here. It makes me sad.

The reaction at the time of release was a bit 'meh'

I think it's matured really well though over the years and is more appreciated now. I love the track.

It was the first ever MJ single I bought as a 13 year old - Cry was the second because I wanted to hear shout.

 

[Hot_Street]

I didn’t realise people weren’t keen on YRMW until I came here. It makes me sad.

I like YRMW, but I expected the tough Michael Jackson I knew from Scream and TDCAU. The leaked Xscape in 2002 felt like that. But it wasn't on the album.

 

[Salami]

The reaction at the time of release was a bit 'meh'

I think it's matured really well though over the years and is more appreciated now. I love the track.

It was the first ever MJ single I bought as a 13 year old - Cry was the second because I wanted to hear shout.

It was kind of my gateway into MJ so it’s always been special to me.

 

[DuranDuran]

If the songs were good enough, they would be hits.

Well how come the Whitney Houston songs were hits for her and not the original artists? The songs are no different, just the singer. Whitney had the Clive Davis machine behind her. How is it Pat Boone had sold more with Little Richard & Fats Domino songs? If the song makes a hit, then Big Mama Thornton's Hound Dog would have been just as successful as Elvis Presley's. Also that would mean that jazz, blues, gospel, bluegrass, prog rock, classical, zydeco, etc. songs or records released by small indie labels aren't good because they don't become hits. I guess Drake & Nicki Minaj is better than all of those artists. Going by the pop charts, then B.B. King is pretty much a "one hit wonder". Yet his career lasted way longer than acts like R.E.M. or The Beatles who outsold him. The Beatles recording career lasted around 8 years. Pink Floyd's album Dark Side Of The Moon didn't have any hit singles, but the album remained on the Billboard charts for many consecutive years. I think Pink Floyd only had 2 radio hits (in the USA) their entire career, Money & Another Brick In The Wall, but their albums sold a lot.

 

[Hot_Street]

But I have to say vocally Invincible is an impressive album.
Break of Dawn and Whatever Happens showed that he hadn't lost anything.

 

[Hurley509]

It's not about whether or not I like YRMW, I actually like the song. But I wouldn't call it his best work. He's really just retreading old ground. It's a nice little piece of puff nostalgia. It's not exactly earth shattering stuff.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Well how come the Whitney Houston songs were hits for her and not the original artists? The songs are no different, just the singer. Whitney had the Clive Davis machine behind her. How is it Pat Boone had sold more with Little Richard & Fats Domino songs? If the song makes a hit, then Big Mama Thornton's Hound Dog would have been just as successful as Elvis Presley's. Also that would mean that jazz, blues, gospel, bluegrass, prog rock, classical, zydeco, etc. songs or records released by small indie labels aren't good because they don't become hits. I guess Drake & Nicki Minaj is better than all of those artists. Going by the pop charts, then B.B. King is pretty much a "one hit wonder". Yet his career lasted way longer than acts like R.E.M. or The Beatles who outsold him. The Beatles recording career lasted around 8 years. Pink Floyd's album Dark Side Of The Moon didn't have any hit singles, but the album remained on the Billboard charts for many consecutive years. I think Pink Floyd only had 2 radio hits (in the USA) their entire career, Money & Another Brick In The Wall, but their albums sold a lot.

Look I'm not interested in hearing about the history of music , all I'm saying is that the songs were just not good enough to be hit singles.

I can almost guarantee that MJ would have big hits again after This is it concerts , the songs just had to be better.

 

[DuranDuran]

It's not exactly earth shattering stuff.

Wow, I never realized that The Girl Is Mine, State Of Shock, I Just Can't Stop Loving You, & Black Or White (all 1st singles) were "earth shattering stuff". Learn something new everyday.

Look I'm not interested in hearing about the history of music , all I'm saying is that the songs were just not good enough to be hit singles.

If you don't know anything about the history of music, how can you claim to know what a hit is or not? Or how songs become hits in the first place. Maybe the record labels ought to hire you for promotion, they would have guaranteed hits that way. It's like some people on this site don't know who Garth Brooks is, yet he is one of the biggest sellers in history. Because Garth and country music in general is not that popular outside of the USA. Can you determine what a country hit is? Probably country is the 2nd most popular genre in the USA right now after hip hop. Some country songs get played on Top 40 too.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Wow, I never realized that The Girl Is Mine, State Of Shock, I Just Can't Stop Loving You, & Black Or White (all 1st singles) were "earth shattering stuff". Learn something new everyday.

If you don't know anything about the history of music, how can you claim to know what a hit is or not? Or how songs become hits in the first place. Maybe the record labels ought to hire you for promotion, they would have guaranteed hits that way. It's like some people on this site don't know who Garth Brooks is, yet he is one of the biggest sellers in history. Because Garth and country music in general is not that popular outside of the USA. Can you determine what a country hit is? Probably country is the 2nd most popular genre in the USA right now after hip hop. Some country songs get played on Top 40 too.

MJ was a pop artist, pop sells if the songs are good.

The likes of Hollywood Tonight is average and just not very good in comparison to his earlier works.

Brooks is unknown in most of the world yet sells millions in the US I agree, I mean you have mods in here who didn't even know who Frank Sinatra was....

 

[DuranDuran]

MJ was a pop artist, pop sells if the songs are good.

The likes of Hollywood Tonight is average and just not very good in comparison to his earlier works.

Brooks is unknown in most of the world yet sells millions in the US I agree, I mean you have mods in here who didn't even know who Frank Sinatra was....

Frank Sinatra hasn't really had a radio presence since the 1960s and he died in the 1990s, why would the average young person know him? The only time I hear Sinatra on the radio is when they start playing Christmas songs late in the year. People might hear him if they watch Married... With Children reruns, but current TV often cuts out the intro music of old TV shows.

Pop doesn't automatically sell. Anyway rap is "pop music" now. There's literally thousands of records released every year, it is impossible for all of them to get radio airplay. It has nothing to do with the quality of songs. It's just whatever sound is popular at the moment. Like in the 1980s glam metal like Bon Jovi & Def Leppard was really popular on Top 40 pop radio and MTV. There is no way those records would be popular if released today, because rock music in general is out of favor with mainstream radio listeners. The main MTV channel doesn't even play many music videos anymore, it's mainly reality TV shows. Even with hip hop, the current popular rappers do not sound like earlier rappers such as Run-DMC, Salt-N-Pepa, or Tone Loc. If Thriller was released today, it wouldn't sell much, because most people now do not buy records, tapes, or CDs, they stream music or download songs. Video games generally outsell music today. Grand Theft Auto 5 has sold more than any other entertainment item in history, including the Thriller album.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

It's not about whether or not I like YRMW, I actually like the song. But I wouldn't call it his best work. He's really just retreading old ground. It's a nice little piece of puff nostalgia. It's not exactly earth shattering stuff.

Everyone always expected Billie Jean 2 or something.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Frank Sinatra hasn't really had a radio presence since the 1960s and he died in the 1990s, why would the average young person know him? The only time I hear Sinatra on the radio is when they start playing Christmas songs late in the year. People might hear him if they watch Married... With Children reruns, but current TV often cuts out the intro music of old TV shows.

Pop doesn't automatically sell. Anyway rap is "pop music" now. There's literally thousands of records released every year, it is impossible for all of them to get radio airplay. It has nothing to do with the quality of songs. It's just whatever sound is popular at the moment. Like in the 1980s glam metal like Bon Jovi & Def Leppard was really popular on Top 40 pop radio and MTV. There is no way those records would be popular if released today, because rock music in general is out of favor with mainstream radio listeners. The main MTV channel doesn't even play many music videos anymore, it's mainly reality TV shows. Even with hip hop, the current popular rappers do not sound like earlier rappers such as Run-DMC, Salt-N-Pepa, or Tone Loc. If Thriller was released today, it wouldn't sell much, because most people now do not buy records, tapes, or CDs, they stream music or download songs. Video games generally outsell music today. Grand Theft Auto 5 has sold more than any other entertainment item in history, including the Thriller album.

I'm bored now of these posts....

A basic response is all that is needed, I don't need a history lesson as I mentioned before.