Why was everything out of place/wrong with Invincible?

Mister_Jay_Tee

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As a matter of fact, it sounds like a sped-up version of the 'Unbelievable' song (released by American rapper The Notorious B.I.G. in 1994).
What's wrong with that?


I did not forget that.

I presumed that you were aware of the rest of that story.
Alright, that's my fault then. Yes, I was. I found it pretty relevant though. I wish he had gotten to hear them first.
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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That doesn’t mean anything. YANA wasn’t the greatest song to begin with.
If you ask me, R.Kellys whole career is nothing special. That's aside from all his controversies. But he was a hard worker it seems, and he was much loved in the R&B scene, and that can't be downplayed just because of personal dislike. It appealed to my demographic/subsection of the populace, so that's that. But that doesn't mean you have to love it, even if you're the same subsection.
 

DuranDuran

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Some of those New Jack Swing era & 1990s male R&B singers like R. Kelly & Aaron Hall from Guy copied Charlie Wilson's (Gap Band) vocal style and Charlie's inspiration was Stevie Wonder & Donny Hathaway. Even Stevie got something from Donny although Stevie came out first in the early 1960s. If you listen to the way Stevie sang in the 1960s and then the early 1970s, it was different. Donny's first album came out in 1970 and Stevie's 1st album after he resigned with Motown (Where I'm Coming From) came out in 1971.
 

Nite Line

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If you ask me, R.Kellys whole career is nothing special. That's aside from all his controversies. But he was a hard worker it seems, and he was much loved in the R&B scene, and that can't be downplayed just because of personal dislike. It appealed to my demographic/subsection of the populace, so that's that. But that doesn't mean you have to love it, even if you're the same subsection.
I agree. R Kelly’s music never did anything for me. Sure the guy had talent but his music just wasn’t for me.
 

PurpleThriller

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What does liking classical music got to do with anything?
In my opinion it says a lot about one's musical culture.
It's one thing to like complex art,such as Debussy's or Satie's work.
And it's another thing to release "music" where you brag about how many drugs you've taken or how much sex you've had with countless "loose" type of girls to say the least.(I'm basically talking about rap/hip-hop "music" and its "deep" lycrical matter).
But that is just maybe me lol 😅 I am someone who never considered rap (most of it) as music ,I know it sounds weird.
 

DuranDuran

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In my opinion it says a lot about one's musical culture.
It's one thing to like complex art,such as Debussy's or Satie's work.
And it's another thing to release "music" where you brag about how many drugs you've taken or how much sex you've had with countless "loose" type of girls to say the least. (I'm basically talking about rap/hip-hop "music" and its "deep" lycrical matter).
But that is just maybe me lol 😅 I am someone who never considered rap (most of it) as music ,I know it sounds weird.
There's a lot of songs about drugs & getting drunk in the 1920s. There's also Lucille Bogan in the 1930s who was basically doing the same thing Lil' Kim, Megan Thee Stallion, & Cardi B is doing today, just as blues instead of hip hop. There's a lot of old blues and country songs bragging about cars & women & have violence. John Lee Hooker has I'm Gonna Kill That Woman, Marty Robbins has El Paso, Nancy Sinatra has Bang Bang, & Johnny Cash has Folsom Prison Blues where he shoots a man "just to watch him die". These songs came out in the 1950s & 1960s. One of the most recorded songs in history is Stag-O-Lee/Stagger Lee. Also what do you think Morris Day was doing? Bragging about cars, homes, & women. The motto of rock music is/was "sex, drugs, & rock n roll". Those psychedelic songs in the late 1960s were drug influenced and there's an entire sub-genre of rock called "stoner rock". John Lennon put out Cold Turkey. Did you think that was about Thanksgiving dinner? 🤣The main difference in today's popular music & older music is that the oldies were often in double entendres (Big 10 Inch Record by Bull Moose Jackson, Sugar In My Bowl by Bessie Smith) and today it's just said straight out.

Maybe you aren't aware, but some of those classical composers were doing drugs themselves, and so were authors like Edgar Allan Poe. Drugs weren't invented by rappers, they've been around for centuries.
 

mj_frenzy

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In my opinion it says a lot about one's musical culture.
It's one thing to like complex art,such as Debussy's or Satie's work.
And it's another thing to release "music" where you brag about how many drugs you've taken or how much sex you've had with countless "loose" type of girls to say the least.(I'm basically talking about rap/hip-hop "music" and its "deep" lycrical matter).
But that is just maybe me lol 😅 I am someone who never considered rap (most of it) as music ,I know it sounds weird.
Rap and hip-hop music are not only about drugs and sex.

In rap and hip-hop music, an artist can sing about anything.

For example, rappers and hip-hop artists also address certain social (poverty, injustice, corruption, etc) or racial concerns via their songs.

So, in that case, these rap and hip-hop songs have a deep lyrical theme, even deeper than many other pop or rock songs.
 

zinniabooklover

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There's a lot of songs about drugs & getting drunk in the 1920s. There's also Lucille Bogan in the 1930s who was basically doing the same thing Lil' Kim, Megan Thee Stallion, & Cardi B is doing today, just as blues instead of hip hop. There's a lot of old blues and country songs bragging about cars & women & have violence.
Yeah, those old style country songs, loads of murder ballads. Ugh!

John Lee Hooker has I'm Gonna Kill That Woman, Marty Robbins has El Paso, Nancy Sinatra has Bang Bang, & Johnny Cash has Folsom Prison Blues where he shoots a man "just to watch him die".
Tom Jones 'Delilah'. Ugh!

These songs came out in the 1950s & 1960s. One of the most recorded songs in history is Stag-O-Lee/Stagger Lee. Also what do you think Morris Day was doing? Bragging about cars, homes, & women. The motto of rock music is/was "sex, drugs, & rock n roll". Those psychedelic songs in the late 1960s were drug influenced and there's an entire sub-genre of rock called "stoner rock".
I've heard way more drug references in rock songs than I have in hip hop.

John Lennon put out Cold Turkey. Did you think that was about Thanksgiving dinner? 🤣The main difference in today's popular music & older music is that the oldies were often in double entendres (Big 10 Inch Record by Bull Moose Jackson, Sugar In My Bowl by Bessie Smith) and today it's just said straight out.

Maybe you aren't aware, but some of those classical composers were doing drugs themselves, and so were authors like Edgar Allan Poe. Drugs weren't invented by rappers, they've been around for centuries.
All of this. We're just scratching the surface here. 🙁
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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In my opinion it says a lot about one's musical culture.
It's one thing to like complex art,such as Debussy's or Satie's work.
And it's another thing to release "music" where you brag about how many drugs you've taken or how much sex you've had with countless "loose" type of girls to say the least.(I'm basically talking about rap/hip-hop "music" and its "deep" lycrical matter).
But that is just maybe me lol 😅 I am someone who never considered rap (most of it) as music ,I know it sounds weird.
The Prince fan talking about crude topics in hip hop is crazy.
 

DuranDuran

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Yeah, those old style country songs, loads of murder ballads. Ugh!
Teenage tragedy songs were popular in the late 1950s & the 1960s too. Look at the other types of entertainment of that era like the many westerns at the movies & on TV or The Three Stooges & cartoons such as Tom & Jerry/Road Runner. West Side Story is about street gangs fighting each other plus war movies, gangster/mafia/noir, and even Elvis movies usually had fights in them. "If you're lookin' for trouble, you've came to the right place." Didn't Captain Kirk always get with the women on the different planets the Enterprise went to on Star Trek? Same for James Bond movies.
 

PurpleThriller

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The Prince fan talking about crude topics in hip hop is crazy.
Oh so now Prince fans are a social category? Or something negative?
Ok mister Jackson fan then 🧐
(I can play your game as well,and if you have basic reading skills you could see that my name is "PurpleThriller" with the word "Thriller" being there as well. I like both dudes,just for your information Jackson fan)
 

zinniabooklover

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Teenage tragedy songs were popular in the late 1950s & the 1960s too.
They were extremely popular. Ngl, I did love Leader of the Pack. Awesome song, brilliant storytelling. Fabulous. I've even seen people include Bobbie Gentry's Ode To Billie Joe in this category although I wouldn't myself.

Pop music (meaning all kinds of popular music) can sure address all the aspects of human interaction including the less appealing parts of the story. But it seems odd to pick on one genre as if those subjects don't crop up in just about every other genre of music.

Look at the other types of entertainment of that era like the many westerns at the movies & on TV or The Three Stooges & cartoons such as Tom & Jerry/Road Runner. West Side Story is about street gangs fighting each other plus war movies, gangster/mafia/noir, and even Elvis movies usually had fights in them. "If you're lookin' for trouble, you've came to the right place."
Humans, eh? We're just a mess, lol.

Didn't Captain Kirk always get with the women on the different planets the Enterprise went to on Star Trek?
He sure did. Used to get on my nerves!

Same for James Bond movies.
Which is why I find them so boring. Gah!
 

DuranDuran

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Oh so now Prince fans are a social category? Or something negative?
Ok mister Jackson fan then 🧐
(I can play your game as well,and if you have basic reading skills you could see that my name is "PurpleThriller" with the word "Thriller" being there as well. I like both dudes,just for your information Jackson fan)
It is ironic to criticize hip hop for sex, when that is a lot of Prince's output from the beginning (Soft And Wet). Plus Prince put out Vanity 6, which were 3 women wearing underwear. That was several years before even the 2 Live Crew came out. The majority of early hip hop songs were either party music or had some kind of funny story or bragging about their MC skills & DJ. Purple Rain has a woman thrown in a trash dumpster and The Kid hits Apollonia, he plays a gigolo in Under The Cherry Moon. Darling Nikki was one of the songs that Tipper Gore complained about and started the PMRC to sticker record covers. I also remember KISS being on some talk show in the 1980s where Gene Simmons was bragging about sleeping with over 2,000 groupies. Parents in the 1980s claimed that heavy metal promoted Satanism & suicide. A lot of people think "cancel culture" started with the current generation, but it's always been there in some form. It's just that the internet & social media made it more widespread & mainstream.
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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Oh so now Prince fans are a social category? Or something negative?
Ok mister Jackson fan then 🧐
(I can play your game as well,and if you have basic reading skills you could see that my name is "PurpleThriller" with the word "Thriller" being there as well. I like both dudes,just for your information Jackson fan)
No bro, but you're talking about the guy who made a song about incest. I love Prince, but I love his clean music most lol. You can say he's genius in ways others aren't, but it's all dirty music lol. It's just funny to me, plus also, Prince literally worked with Kendrick Lamar, he always intersected with rap, so did MJ. The divide MJ/Prince fans have with genres of music that they themselves didn't, it's just such a contrast.
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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I actually love Unbreakable, it's just sometimes you gotta leave good songs on the cutting room floor :LOL:
Maybe so, but that just can't be one of them lol. Unbreakable deserved to be lead single. MJ could've left plenty of other songs off. But not that one. Same way Xscape got cut when maybe it just should've been pushed out, before it was too late.
 

lubyss

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Privacy might just be the worst song Michael released. Lyrically, it is fine but those annoying camera sounds throughout the song, not to mention Michael's heavily processed vocals. Just awful.
For me it is one of the best songs... :) Love the camera sounds and love the gritty angry vocals... :)
 

BuffaloBill87

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I became a fan in the summer of 2001 (I was 13) and remember the early hype around Invincible and that it cost 30 million to make etc.

You rock my world was a pretty good single and it reached number 2 in the UK before quickly slipping down the charts. Looking back it is a great track and has got better as the years have gone on.

There was a lot of hype for Cry before the album too but that was a total flop. A terrible video with Mike not even in it. It reached number 25 in the UK charts.

That was the end of the Invincible era. Nothing else happened.

I do remember hearing about A big budget Unbreakable video with Mel Gibson being involved lol.

The biggest issue with Vince is that the tracks are just average to good - not a single classic MJ song on the entire album. Some utter guff like Privacy, The Lost Children, 2000 Watts , Threatened thrown in too.

The whole project was just an overproduced mess. The best thing was the funky different coloured Invincible albums you could buy!
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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I think half the point of Invincible was to not be "Classic" MJ. It was supposed to be New Century MJ, or at least a lead in to it. It has more in common with Off The Wall than Thriller, Dangerous or HIStory, and it's not meant to be live album music like BAD.

Whatever album would've come next would've definitely been classic MJ, like Thriller following Off The Wall.
 

Hiker

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Yesterday some of us were listening to Michael Monday on an American radio channel. There were as many requests for Invincible songs as there were for others. This was supposed to be Thriller focused 😂
 

Dorian

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Hip hop/rap has been consistently the only genre that has been addressing social/racial/etc issues for years. Yeah, there is a lot of junk, but the other genres have fewer people tackling these issues and far more people singing random stuff.
 

threatened2020

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Some other things also on this album were not really suitable for his age, and he was understandably criticized for doing them.

For example, he also used some modern, slang words and phrases in an effort to connect better with the younger generation.

Like, the "shorty" word, as a reference to an attractive woman (in '2000 Watts').

Or, the "cool" word in the 'Invincible' song.

Or even, the "she is banging!" phrase in 'You Rock My World' (spoken intro).

All these things (including his computerised voice on certain songs) proved to be desperate and unsuccessful efforts on his part, and many people remarked that on this album Michael Jackson simply did what he was told to do by his producers.
The only one I agree with here is the 'she is banging' phrase. To this day that is still very cringe!
 

threatened2020

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I became a fan in the summer of 2001 (I was 13) and remember the early hype around Invincible and that it cost 30 million to make etc.

You rock my world was a pretty good single and it reached number 2 in the UK before quickly slipping down the charts. Looking back it is a great track and has got better as the years have gone on.

There was a lot of hype for Cry before the album too but that was a total flop. A terrible video with Mike not even in it. It reached number 25 in the UK charts.

That was the end of the Invincible era. Nothing else happened.

I do remember hearing about A big budget Unbreakable video with Mel Gibson being involved lol.

The biggest issue with Vince is that the tracks are just average to good - not a single classic MJ song on the entire album. Some utter guff like Privacy, The Lost Children, 2000 Watts , Threatened thrown in too.

The whole project was just an overproduced mess. The best thing was the funky different coloured Invincible albums you could buy!
At the time I was gutted with the lame video for 'Cry'. The whole album may not be his best work, but it did have so much potential.
 

mj_frenzy

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What's wrong with that?
It sounds unoriginal, especially for an opening track and a planned single on a much anticipated studio album.

Here are some other issues about the 'Unbreakable' song, which have already been pinpointed by Michael Jackson's fans, music critics and me:

- Michael Jackson's voice sounds strained
- it is very long in duration, so it overstays its welcome
- it has an unnecessary intro before the actual start of the song
- the lyrical theme sounds rehashed (Michael Jackson and the media)
- the rap verse from the deceased The Notorious B.I.G. makes the song sound somewhat creepy
 

Licinus

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It sounds unoriginal, especially for an opening track and a planned single on a much anticipated studio album.

Here are some other issues about the 'Unbreakable' song, which have already been pinpointed by Michael Jackson's fans, music critics and me:

- Michael Jackson's voice sounds strained
- it is very long in duration, so it overstays its welcome
- it has an unnecessary intro before the actual start of the song
- the lyrical theme sounds rehashed (Michael Jackson and the media)
- the rap verse from the deceased The Notorious B.I.G. makes the song sound somewhat creepy
Disagree on all counts.
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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Yesterday some of us were listening to Michael Monday on an American radio channel. There were as many requests for Invincible songs as there were for others. This was supposed to be Thriller focused 😂
XM Michael Jackson played tons of Invincible, and Xscape cuts. I heard Unbreakable on the radio of course, and it sounded quite good.
 

Mister_Jay_Tee

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At the time I was gutted with the lame video for 'Cry'. The whole album may not be his best work, but it did have so much potential.
I watched the video one single time and that was it.

But apparently MJ decided the video was better without him, and, thinking on it, it's not so bad. The concept is cool. But If he had appeared it definitely would've validated the whole thing.
 
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