According to this 'animal lover' MJ did not love animals, but loved to collect them.

Can you believe these people? I was just looking for some pictures of MJ and animals on google, and pretty soon i found photos of empty stables from Neverland. So i check to see what it's about.

A site for protecting animals, and this woman claims Michael never loved animals but loved to collect them. That he eventually gave Bubbles away and never ever visited him after that. Ok lady.....MJ didn't love animals you say....i guess that's why he rescued a chimpanzee monkey from a cancer research facility , right?

Jane Goodall, a woman who's really standing up for animals said she didn't really like the fact that the monkey was wearing clothes and things like that, but when she saw how good MJ actually was for the animals....she simply couldn't say one bad word anymore.

I do have to say that i always wondered what happened to the animals when MJ left Neverland , i remember we got TMZ and PETA going all crazy about neglection and abuse of the animals...but there was never anything concrete on it. But of course..instead of reporting there was nothing really confirmed, they just give people the worst case scenario. ANyone know more about this?

This woman claims that it looked like he cared for them...but in the end when the camera was off, they lived in grueling conditions, small cages and what not. The article certainly ain't too friendly..but then again there's alotta shit about MJ...so i was wondering if any other long term MJ fan knows more about this, i'm just wondering.

http://hollywooddog.blogspot.com/2009/07/blog-post.html

Jane Goodall is a renowed person in her field, but she's clearly not aware of Michael's love & care he gave to animals.

Bubbles is in Florida where I live - in a very wonderful place. Bubbles became very aggressive & had to be moved to a place where he could be cared for, kind of like a nursing home for aging animals.

Michael couldn't care for him in Bubbles' state. Bub needed to be with professionals.

truth be told, animals aren't stupid. MJ has never had an incident with an animal. those animals loved him, because he loved them. anyone saying anything negative about MJ is just getting on a bandwagon, and are envious because he has fans. you can find all the articles in the world, but a person can't be convinced, unless they decide to be convinced.

PETA pull this crap some time ago, making up lies about MJ neglecting animals. I think that there was one article in defense of mike that someone else made about MJ caring for animals.

Well I'm pretty sure he had to give Bubbles away because he was maturing and could become aggressive...

Trust me...you wouldn't want to keep something that is capable of literally ripping your face off (for no reason).

-_-

vncwilliam said:

truth be told, animals aren't stupid. MJ has never had an incident with an animal. those animals loved him, because he loved them. anyone saying anything negative about MJ is just getting on a bandwagon, and are envious because he has fans. you can find all the articles in the world, but a person can't be convinced, unless they decide to be convinced.

Click to expand...

MarielovesMJ said:

PETA pull this crap some time ago, making up lies about MJ neglecting animals. I think that there was one article in defense of mike that someone else made about MJ caring for animals.

Click to expand...

Giant Enemy Cat said:

Well I'm pretty sure he had to give Bubbles away because he was maturing and could become aggressive...

Trust me...you wouldn't want to keep something that is capable of literally ripping your face off (for no reason).

-_-

Click to expand...

:yes:

people are sad

Sirena said:

Jane Goodall is a renowed person in her field, but she's clearly not aware of Michael's love & care he gave to animals.

Bubbles is in Florida where I live - in a very wonderful place. Bubbles became very aggressive & had to be moved to a place where he could be cared for, kind of like a nursing home for aging animals.

Michael couldn't care for him in Bubbles' state. Bub needed to be with professionals.

Click to expand...

Hold on, it's not Jane GOodall who's saying this, Jane Goodall approved very much of how MJ treated his animals. It's the lady from this blog, someone who cares for animals, that's good...but what she's saying...i simply don't believe that....MJ cared for the living, as you could see in his videos, and hear in his lyrics.

But here's a part from the article....



[FONT=&quot]The photo of the elephant cage tells the story of a grim existence.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"It's a very small space with a concrete floor which is detrimental to elephants' joints and feet," says Catherine Doyle, elephant specialist and Los Angeles director of campaigns for In Defense of Animals. "It looks like a concrete cell. It's no way to keep an elephant; there's no way that type of enclosure could ever meet their needs. It's a depressing, small, impoverished space."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Elephants walk tens of miles a day and their home ranges measure hundreds of square miles," continued Catherine Doyle. "They have extremely complex social structures and they live in tightly knit family groups in which the females stay together for life. It's like looking at a prison cell looking at these pictures."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I spoke to undercover investigator Jack Stevens on July 4th. He is an elephant expert, having worked hands on with them both in the Circus and at an Elephant Sanctuary. " I can state categorically that the pictures of the enclosures I've seen at Michael Jacksons Neverland Ranch are grossly inadequate to house an Elephant, " he said. "Unless the Elephant was given long term access to vast acreage on other parts of the ranch where he/she could roam around unimpeded at his/her own leisure I would say that cage bordered on the inhumane."

----

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]But that's the thing...these people don't know if the elephant had the freedom to go to other places at the ranch...which i really do believe it does. I remember pics of MJ and a elephant...and the space was huge.
[/FONT]

Thanks for the clarification, Staffordshire .

Wasn't it Elizabeth Taylor who gave MJ the elephant?

And Neverland was hundreds of acres of land.

So - pffft on the commenter.

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

Hold on, it's not Jane GOodall who's saying this, Jane Goodall approved very much of how MJ treated his animals. It's the lady from this blog, someone who cares for animals, that's good...but what she's saying...i simply don't believe that....MJ cared for the living, as you could see in his videos, and hear in his lyrics.

But here's a part from the article....



[FONT=&quot]The photo of the elephant cage tells the story of a grim existence.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"It's a very small space with a concrete floor which is detrimental to elephants' joints and feet," says Catherine Doyle, elephant specialist and Los Angeles director of campaigns for In Defense of Animals. "It looks like a concrete cell. It's no way to keep an elephant; there's no way that type of enclosure could ever meet their needs. It's a depressing, small, impoverished space."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Elephants walk tens of miles a day and their home ranges measure hundreds of square miles," continued Catherine Doyle. "They have extremely complex social structures and they live in tightly knit family groups in which the females stay together for life. It's like looking at a prison cell looking at these pictures."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I spoke to undercover investigator Jack Stevens on July 4th. He is an elephant expert, having worked hands on with them both in the Circus and at an Elephant Sanctuary. " I can state categorically that the pictures of the enclosures I've seen at Michael Jacksons Neverland Ranch are grossly inadequate to house an Elephant, " he said. "Unless the Elephant was given long term access to vast acreage on other parts of the ranch where he/she could roam around unimpeded at his/her own leisure I would say that cage bordered on the inhumane."[/FONT]

Click to expand...

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

Hold on, it's not Jane GOodall who's saying this, Jane Goodall approved very much of how MJ treated his animals. It's the lady from this blog, someone who cares for animals, that's good...but what she's saying...i simply don't believe that....MJ cared for the living, as you could see in his videos, and hear in his lyrics.

But here's a part from the article....



[FONT=&quot]The photo of the elephant cage tells the story of a grim existence.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"It's a very small space with a concrete floor which is detrimental to elephants' joints and feet," says Catherine Doyle, elephant specialist and Los Angeles director of campaigns for In Defense of Animals. "It looks like a concrete cell. It's no way to keep an elephant; there's no way that type of enclosure could ever meet their needs. It's a depressing, small, impoverished space."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Elephants walk tens of miles a day and their home ranges measure hundreds of square miles," continued Catherine Doyle. "They have extremely complex social structures and they live in tightly knit family groups in which the females stay together for life. It's like looking at a prison cell looking at these pictures."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I spoke to undercover investigator Jack Stevens on July 4th. He is an elephant expert, having worked hands on with them both in the Circus and at an Elephant Sanctuary. " I can state categorically that the pictures of the enclosures I've seen at Michael Jacksons Neverland Ranch are grossly inadequate to house an Elephant, " he said. "Unless the Elephant was given long term access to vast acreage on other parts of the ranch where he/she could roam around unimpeded at his/her own leisure I would say that cage bordered on the inhumane."[/FONT]

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that's just it. how do they know the elephants didn't have free range on that ranch. and how do people know whether or not, someone would take advantage of it being MJ's property, and steal and kill the animals. so how do they know that MJ didn't have them guarded there long enough to keep them from human predators? these antagonists know nothing. they're just MJ haters. no matter what MJ did, these are the people that would look for something to be wrong with it. they have no justification, and i wouldn't want to look into their closet for any skeletons, because i'm sure i'd find them,( skeletons at animals' expense.) that's usually the case with MJ haters. the haters are just unwarranted, and their timing is suspect, as usual. a little after june 25, and during overwhelming worldwide fan sorrow over June 25.

these people have no evidence of animal cruelty by Michael. talking about that enclosure, alone, is like the people who listened to sounds on the other side of a door, and described them as 'strange sounds', and equating that with child molestation, on Michael's part. it's total nonsense BS. non evidence. and clearly conjecture and opinion that is biased and based on hate, from people who simply hate MJ, and have no objectivity, or love for children or animals.

Giant Enemy Cat said:

Well I'm pretty sure he had to give Bubbles away because he was maturing and could become aggressive...

Trust me...you wouldn't want to keep something that is capable of literally ripping your face off (for no reason).

-_-

Click to expand...

Agreed, And if anyone had heard of the lady in New York that got her face ripped off by a chimp that she thought it was tame, It's stuff like that IMO is the reason why MJ had to give away bubbles so stuff like that wouldn't happen.

If anyone knows what I am talking about it's the lady that had been disfigured by one that appeared on the Oprah show

Exactly...another part.


[FONT=&quot]Fans of Michael Jackson insist he loved Bubbles but a more skeptical look at TMZ photos of Bubbles' former cage reveals that he lived in a zoo, not a sanctuary. He lived a solitary existence in a cage when he wasn't on display. [/FONT]



And again.......Bubbles could have very well had a room of his own inside the house, or anything like that. I wouldn't be surprised if Bubbles strolled around inside the house, like a family member of his. This is all just guessing from them.

Michael didn't love Animals...oh right...let's listen to the lyrics of Ben, nah...that's not about caring and loving a animal, loving it as if it's your own brother, come on now. Earth Song video...with all the elephants dying and getting up again at the end of it...all those things say alot.

wOWOWW.... This is something I just can't believe.
Michael had animals since a very young age and he loved them.
I love my dogs and I tried my best to give them the best (even if sometimes they behave far from the best). I do all I can within my reach. Michael was an extremely rich man, so he could certainly afford all those animals.

Now... to be veeery honest, for me, to have an elephant as a pet in California is not a nice thing for the poor elephant. BUT... I do not know how Michael got that elephant. Just think of Bubbles. He was SAVED from that horrible place!! I loved Michael for doing that and I wish I could do that too (I have only the chance to do it in a small way, with my dogs rescued from the street).

I just can't believe it. I remember reading somewhere Bubbles had a trainer, so that means Michael would really CARE a lot about him, so much as to have a trainer who would know about chimps. I don't think Michael would have allow any of his animals to suffer cruelty at his OWN home, when he rescued Bubbles form cruelty (sorry... I have a very strong feeling against animal used for "scientific" purposes. Yes, yes... I know all the talking against this opinion, but we would go off topic ).

vncwilliam said:

these people have no evidence of animal cruelty by Michael. talking about that enclosure, alone, is like the people who listened to sounds on the other side of a door, and described them as 'strange sounds', and equating that with child molestation, on Michael's part. it's total nonsense BS. non evidence. and clearly conjecture and opinion that is biased and based on hate, from people who simply hate MJ, and have no objectivity, or love for children or animals.

Click to expand...

BRAVO

As usual, your post said it all the best possible way.
I totally agree with you.

BRAVO

MarielovesMJ said:

Agreed, And if anyone had heard of the lady in New York that got her face ripped off by a chimp that she thought it was tame, It's stuff like that IMO is the reason why MJ had to give away bubbles so stuff like that wouldn't happen.

If anyone knows what I am talking about it's the lady that had been disfigured by one that appeared on the Oprah show

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of when I made that post.

The phone call she made...it was...well, words can't describe it. :mello:

what did they want him to do...visit Bubbles every wednesday?

PCR said:

wOWOWW.... This is something I just can't believe.
Michael had animals since a very young age and he loved them.
I love my dogs and I tried my best to give them the best (even if sometimes they behave far from the best). I do all I can within my reach. Michael was an extremely rich man, so he could certainly afford all those animals.

Now... to be veeery honest, for me, to have an elephant as a pet in California is not a nice thing for the poor elephant. BUT... I do not know how Michael got that elephant. Just think of Bubbles. He was SAVED from that horrible place!! I loved Michael for doing that and I wish I could do that too (I have only the chance to do it in a small way, with my dogs rescued from the street).

I just can't believe it. I remember reading somewhere Bubbles had a trainer, so that means Michael would really CARE a lot about him, so much as to have a trainer who would know about chimps. I don't think Michael would have allow any of his animals to suffer cruelty at his OWN home, when he rescued Bubbles form cruelty (sorry... I have a very strong feeling against animal used for "scientific" purposes. Yes, yes... I know all the talking against this opinion, but we would go off topic ).

Click to expand...

I 100% agree with you on that, i care immensely for animals, and most of them need our help. When we 'buy' a animal...so to speak, it's our responsibility to take care of them. I love my dog to death, and i'll go through fire for her....she's family , simple as that. And i always saw it like that when it comes to MJ with animals. His Heal the world foundation is against animal cruelty and for the wellbeing of them. They also say nothing of his money went to charity for animals...which might be true, nothing is listed on MJaid.com, but that's his decision. I simply don't believe these animals were living in inhumane conditions.

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

I 100% agree with you on that, i care immensely for animals, and most of them need our help. When we 'buy' a animal...so to speak, it's our responsibility to take care of them. I love my dog to death, and i'll go through fire for her....she's family , simple as that. And i always saw it like that when it comes to MJ with animals. His Heal the world foundation is against animal cruelty and for the wellbeing of them. They also say nothing of his money went to charity for animals...which might be true, nothing is listed on MJaid.com, but that's his decision. I simply don't believe these animals were living in inhumane conditions.

Click to expand...

it also might be true that he aided animals though nothing is listed on MJaid. he made a strong attempt to keep his charities a secret, till people started claiming evil things against him. now, if enough hate is spread toward MJ, concerning animals, other stuff might pop up about his aiding animals. but what we have seen, is enough for us to know MJ loved animals.

Definitely, i never had any doubts about that. I don't know if ya'll read the whole article..but they even go as far as to compare it to Guantanamo Bay....oh brother. The part about the female elephant and being alone, being a very cruel thing. It's very possible that when MJ was out of the country, he had caretakers...and if those caretakers refused that request for the elephant to be transfered....there you go. But MJ get's the blame.

Although the article tells about MJ not paying the caretakers, but whatever. I also recall hearing that from the tabloids..and in the end none of that was even close to the truth.

LOL anything to hate Michael Jackson on people will try...whatever! Now he never loved animals this idiot says? Give me a f*cking break, I am BEYOND SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LIKE THIS A.HOLE Accusing MJ of B.S! GET OFF HIS.....ALREADY!

It was Obviously CLEAR that MJ loved animals, most if not all of the animals at Neverland were rescued animals like Bubbles!

Seriously the hate people got for this man is VERY SICKING!

Moving on!

Your typical uniformed moron looking for publicity by attaching themselves to a Global mega star.
LIZ SMITH the famous gossip columnist and good pal of ELIZABETH TAYLOR attended TAYLOR's wedding at MJ's neverland ranch.When any one negatively commented about the animals at neverland LIZ SMITH always came to MJ's defense stating that "the animals at neverland were cared for better than most human beings."

I agree with u max000

bluetopez said:

LOL anything to hate Michael Jackson on people will try...whatever! Now he never loved animals this idiot says? Give me a f*cking break, I am BEYOND SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LIKE THIS A.HOLE Accusing MJ of B.S! GET OFF HIS.....ALREADY!

It was Obviously CLEAR that MJ loved animals, most if not all of the animals at Neverland were rescued animals like Bubbles!

Seriously the hate people got for this man is VERY SICKING!

Moving on!

Click to expand...

Most of the animals were saved animals? Ah that's awesome, but where do you hear/read that?

max000 said:

Your typical uniformed moron looking for publicity by attaching themselves to a Global mega star.
LIZ SMITH the famous gossip columnist and good pal of ELIZABETH TAYLOR attended TAYLOR's wedding at MJ's neverland ranch.When any one negatively commented about the animals at neverland LIZ SMITH always came to MJ's defense stating that "the animals at neverland were cared for better than most human beings."

Click to expand...

Even though she's a gossip columnist..there's no reason to lie about this, sounds great. It's what i expected. But i just don't understand why this other animal lover talks so negative about the environment for the animals. To me it appears she's only guessing and nothing but guessing, just like the experts she talked to. They all ASSUMED that the elephant couldn't get to other places than just that small stable...

They assume that Bubbles lived in that cage, they assumed all of that.
But they don't talk about the possibility that these animals had much more freedom than that, that Bubbles could have lived in the house when he was still around MJ....ah well.

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

I 100% agree with you on that, i care immensely for animals, and most of them need our help. When we 'buy' a animal...so to speak, it's our responsibility to take care of them. I love my dog to death, and i'll go through fire for her....she's family , simple as that. And i always saw it like that when it comes to MJ with animals. His Heal the world foundation is against animal cruelty and for the wellbeing of them. They also say nothing of his money went to charity for animals...which might be true, nothing is listed on MJaid.com, but that's his decision. I simply don't believe these animals were living in inhumane conditions.

Click to expand...

Yes, our animals are part of our family. No one is forced to have an animal, so if we decide to have one, we must do the best for them. No questions.

Maybe we have no information about MJ giving money to charities for animals, but c'mon! That doesn't mean the man would be bad to animals. So if he was not giving money to charities for old people... we must believe he would be bad to old people??? That's so insane!!!

I have always wondered how Michael manage the close of Neverland in regards to his animals. It must have been so difficult at so many levels to give up his friends It was like when we were kids and we moved to a smaller house and had to gave our dogs We cried for weeks and we never went to see them at their new homes, for we knew it would be worst for them and us. A sad memory really. It must have been very difficult and painful for Michael to leave his animals. Don't come now suggesting cruelty from him!!!!

Now ....aaaaaaaaaaagggggggggg!! I am upset!!!! These people are the plague!!! If they can't hurt Michael one way, they try another! They know this is a very sensitive topic and they know they will get to the heart of many (especially children) and all they want to is destroy everything good MIchael has done!!!!!

NASTY PEOPLE!!!!!

I decided to look around a bit on google...cause you know..why not.

Found this

http://blogs.discovery.com/news_animal/2009/06/michael-jacksons-pets-and-animals.html



Pet rats were just some of the animals that Jackson cared for, and was associated with, throughout his much too short time on Earth. Please join me in a look at some of the others.

Like many young boys, Jackson owned a mini menagerie of dogs and reptiles. But, just as his superstar life spun out of "normalcy," so too did his collection of animals as time went on. His November 1986 line of stuffed toys called "Michael's Pets" paid tribute to just a handful of these animal companions— frogs, rabbits, snakes, ostriches, giraffes, llamas and, of course, Bubbles the chimp.


Jackson rescued Bubbles from a Texas cancer research clinic in 1985 when the chimpanzee was three years old. For several years, the two were inseparable. Bubbles slept in a crib at the corner of Jackson's bedroom, where he alone was allowed to use the singer's private bathroom.






There you have it...Bubbles lived INSIDE the house.



And this.







People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals filed a complaint in January 2006, claiming the animals were being mistreated. This was attributed by others to Jackson's money, legal and paparazzi problems, which forced him to abandon the ranch. The U.S. Department of Agriculture, however, inspected the animals at the zoo and found no evidence of abuse or neglect.


Then there's a part about people trying to boycott This is it ,because of sources then claiming he was gonna have lots of exotic animals during his shows.......sigh.

Here's another link...

http://www.peoplepets.com/photos/celebrities/michael-jackson-s-animal-kingdom/3

And indeed...the lama was bought/rescued from a circus.

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

I decided to look around a bit on google...cause you know..why not. Found this http://blogs.discovery.com/news_animal/2009/06/michael-jacksons-pets-and-animals.html

Click to expand...

Well... there is at least on mistake, since we know Bubbles lives in Florida, not in Cali. But that's fine, not biiiiggg deal. Now for the complaints about TII.... And, ok that is completely stupid if that was true. How can they plan boycotting something based on guessing??? Knowing Michael...?? :ermm: I hope that was not true and I hope they never believed that.

And if they ever did... then by watching TII they should feel ashamed. The credits of TII clearly state no animals were abused during the making of the "film", that is, rehearsals.

Now for the original article you found, Staffordshire.... shame on them to be based on TMZ stuff. Now that's funny. TMZ concerned about animal rights? Mmm....

Exactly, and i do remember the articles...among the many other tabloid articles when TII was anounced , that they were gonna have animals in there. But really....as if MJ would ever do that. Britney Spears might have thought it was cool to use a snake onstage.

Michael has never ever put a animal in a concert.

anyway....more and more proof that the lady from the very first article is just ignorant and probably a hater too. AND it becomes very obvious that this woman ONLY judged these few photos...she hasn't even been at Neverland and looked at the environment for the animals. Anyway...read the next article, it's very good.


"Michael Jackson Loved His Animals", Interview With Animal Rights Activist Tippi Hedren



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-mannino/michael-jackson-loved-his_b_224324.html

Staffordshire Bullterrier said:

And indeed...the lama was bought/rescued from a circus.

Click to expand...

Yes! Michael bought Louis from the woman of a circus... nice life, actually better than living at Neverland :ermm:

The vid:

In all the videos I've seen from Neverland the animals are constantly roaming around and outside their enclosures. What an awful life they must have had with over 2,000 acres to roam around on. :smilerolleyes:

The article from Huffingtonpost is great and most replies are as well, but some of them are so ridiculous, at least get your info straight.

This idiot says Bubbles is a monkey that was taken from his mother....right...and that Michael used a weapon on his elephants to control it, like Tippi Hedren's husband did apparently....people just never stop with crap. A good and positive article gets posted and there's also some bullshit in the replies, sigh.

And some of them say Michael never visited Bubbles or provide financial support, but how the hell do they even know that? jeez. One of the replies says this..


Error in article (Bubbles)

On July 7th, 2009 Erika (not verified) says:
Bubbles is housed at The Center For Great Apes in Florida. As far as I'm aware, there is no such thing as the "Great Apes Sanctuary" in Florida.


This would mean the article is lying about something that doesn't even exist. When i look at pics of MJ with bubbles and videos...i see a human who genuinely loving his animal. For sure that he has visited him.

This article says he chose their new homes carefully and donated to shelters and sanctuaries all over the world.

Ok... I went to the website of The Shambala (www.shambala.org) of the THE ROAR FOUNDATION. They have Sabu and Thriller (MJ's tigers) there. And they look wonderful!!!

And then I found they have an adoption program. In my country I have "adopted" a small fox before, and now a puma (a kind of South American lion, but not a lion at all!). So I thought I would like to see the adoption program for Sabu and Thriller. And yes! They can be "adopted".

And then I found this:

For SABU:
http://www.shambala.org/pages_adoption/tiger_sabu.htm

When Michael Jackson decided to close his zoo at his Neverland Valley Ranch in Los Olivos, California and place his animals at other facilities, he consulted with his animals’ long time zoological Veterinarian, Dr. Martin Dinnes and asked him which Sanctuary would make the best home for his tigers, “Thriller” and “Sabu”. A quality facility was Jackson’s priority. Dr. Dinnes took little time in suggesting The Roar Foundation’s Shambala Preserve.

In common with all the other animals Shambala takes in, which now total 70 non-domestic felines including leopards, lions, other tigers, servals, cheetah, mountain lions. These tigers from Neverland came with no endowment for their future care. Acceptance of these beautiful animals by The Shambala Preserve could not be taken lightly as it costs a great deal of money to properly care for them the rest of their lives. The lifetime commitment for these animals is over 20 years, therefore taking in these 7 year old tigers is more than a 13 year commitment. In any case, sadly, it is rare that support money comes with any of these animals.


The page for "Thriller" states the same info
http://www.shambala.org/pages_adoption/tiger_thriller.htm

Now... this is not that good for me
Honestly... and I hate to make any judgments without Michael here to slap on my face and show me the facts but.... this "no endowment" is sad news. It's the same with Bubbles...

Emmm.... :ermm: Now I admit this is sad for me.