Was Michael Jackson really murdered? Who did it? Let's talk about it

[Autumn II]

I have a problem with Murray calling time of death in the hospital for several reasons. Number one. He did not have 'privileges' to practice at that hospital so once the patient is delivered to the ER it is out of his hands totally and he is no longer the doctor in charge. He would have no say as to what would happen from that point on.

This is a legal issue. He would not have been asked to 'call' anything in that hospital and I'm not even sure he would have been asked to sign the death certificate as has been said over and over. It wasn't his call at that point.

Yes, I understand the EMS guys would have wanted to 'save' Michael Jackson but if they walked in on a scene where the person were obviously long gone they would have called. If not then, they would have called when they got to the hospital. Something.

Maybe we are all assuming these things didn't happen but they did in fact happen. Or....maybe he was not really dead that long.

I think a lot of what we believe happened, never really happened.

We have no way of knowing if paramedics DID call a superior. Probably, they did? The EMS crew would have had to defer to the doctor on the scene, so even though they knew Michael was beyond saving, they had to go through the motions.

Personally, I don't believe ANYTHING people "say" happened. We just have to piece it together in terms of what seems logical, and guess?

If this is true then I am sure the LAPD have interviewed the paramedics who obviously would have known right away if Michael was dead or alive when they arrived. So, Murray must have had some explaining to do.

I'm quite sure paramedics were interviewed. They would have had the medical knowledge to realize that if lividity were present, Michael was beyond saving. This would also explain the slowness of the ambulance. We don't know if it backed out slowly, and then went rushing off, with lights and sirens. Maybe so. . maybe not.

Since this investigation is going on as long as it has, it has made me more suspicious of others involvement in this and not just Murray.

Me, as well. If this was simple, there would have been an arrest already. ONE arrest. . . .

Yes, that or maybe the tabloids and news stories get carried away with 'facts' that aren't really true and we believe them because we don't always know we are being duped.

It is very easy to believe news stories, especially when they are reported by places like CNN or Associated Press but sometimes they are quoting someone and that someone may be lying. It isn't that the news is wrong....it is the person who spoke is an idiot? Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. Idiots. . . exist? I don't necessarily believe ANY news stories, or find one "source" more credible than another. The lines between tabloid and "legitimate" news were blurred a long time ago. Seeing something on CNN (or even reading it on the BBC) does not make it true. Reading something in the National Enquirer doesn't make it NOT true. The truth is, we know few "facts" here. It's more of a sense of looking at patterns, and the motives of each person, based on what we know of their histories and what they stand to gain or lose. Just. . patterns. . theories.. . . even hunches, as we try to understand, as best we can. . . .

 

[rainny]

if they thought Mike still had a chance why weren't the sirens going?

.

They sure took their time to leave the driveway.

Are paramedics under some law which requires them to keep

things quiet?

 

[funkyfish]

A quick question, apologies if this has been discussed before. What do people think about the fairly big gap in time between when murray says he gave mj the propofol and the midazolam i think it was? If i'm not mistaken theres a 3 hour gap there, and surely it doesn't make sense for mj to have been awake and requesting propofol for that long? I mean if he WAS awake Murray probably would have given in alot earlier.....unless mj was initially asleep and then woke up later?
Ack, i've begun rambling and i think i may have answered my own question. To anyone with any medical knowledge, does it make sense for the drugs murray gave before the propofol, to have worn off sufficiantly within those 3 hours for mj to be alert enough to ask for propofol at all?

Of course this entire timeline comes from murray himself so be entirely bull.
Sorry if none of this makes any sense.

 

[Maria MJ]

Did anyone notice how they threw the covered body on the wheel bed on their way from the hospital to the coroner's office?
It actually bumped!!

couldn't be more disrespectful - I'm so mad at these people

 

[Moddie777]

Did anyone notice how they threw the covered body on the wheel bed on their way from the hospital to the coroner's office?
It actually bumped!!

couldn't be more disrespectful - I'm so mad at these people

Yep! I saw that too! Cnn kept showing the scene over and over again the day after. I felt horrified but I could not stay away from the news coverage.

I began my analysis and investigative work during that time.


I felt the same as you, they were "disrespectful" to say the very least. I could not believe how they were being so rough.

 

[FUJON]

Did anyone notice how they threw the covered body on the wheel bed on their way from the hospital to the coroner's office?
It actually bumped!!

couldn't be more disrespectful - I'm so mad at these people

yes, I saw that, too............. :angry:

 

[amyzabeth]

On that we agree but I think where we disagree is with what we believe to be a fact. I think a lot of the information we have on Murray is not based on fact but based on judgment.

When exactly did I say that I thought the paramedics were in on this?

You keep stating what you would have done if you were one of the paramedics, but you are not them.

When that person who called 911 said that there was a doctor present they kind of stopped asking questions. Remember that? Like at first the operator was saying oh where is the man? The person calling 911 said that Mike was on the bed. The operator said oh move him to the floor. Then the guy who called 911 replied with oh there is a personal doctor here. Then the operator kind of was like oh okay, we are sending over help. So basically the calls of the DOCTOR were being trusted, even though clearly Murray was doing the wrong thing in the situation.

The operator probably figured since Murray is a doctor then Murray would know to put a board or something behind Mike's back before performing CPR. But the person's assumption was wrong. Murray didn't do that. And again with the paramedics. I don't think that they realized he was gone for a long time because they did not realize the lividity thing until a while after that. They saw he was still warm, so their main focus was to get him breathing again.

After the fact like when the autopsy was getting done and stuff, that is when the report came out about the lividity. Which means Mike was gone long before the paramedics arrived. Once Mike was in the hospital, it was up to the doctors yes, but also Murray didn't tell the paramedics what he had given Michael. He left out the whole cocktail that he had given Michael. He only told them about the drug (Ephedra? not sure about the exact name atm) that he used to try to possibly reverse what he had done. But anyways, he could have just said he put that in Mike to save him but in reality that was what helped in napping him. It's in the autopsy report that was released my mind can't remember exactly what it said atm, but something along those lines.

 

[MJJ7777]

Did anyone notice how they threw the covered body on the wheel bed on their way from the hospital to the coroner's office?
It actually bumped!!

couldn't be more disrespectful - I'm so mad at these people

Oh Gosh, I thought I was the only one fussing over this. My heart completely stopped beating for that second.:doh:. I felt so sick. They handled him like it was nothing. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe they were nervous, IDK. I just know I didn't like seeing it at all, especially seeing him in that body bag so still and..

 

[kasume]

^^ how about we move on from that.....okay, so Michael was murdered. let's talk about THAT.

 

[Beachlover]

^^ how about we move on from that.....okay, so Michael was murdered. let's talk about THAT.

Ok...but I seem to be running into opposition there also.

I can clearly point something out and people will sit there and say I don't know what I'm talking about and I have it all wrong.

Yet on other threads here they will tell you that we aren't arguing, just putting out theories. My theory is that the EMT guys did not think he was dead for hours and it was just a story put out by the news and not based on facts.

 

[Beachlover]

After the fact like when the autopsy was getting done and stuff, that is when the report came out about the lividity. Which means Mike was gone long before the paramedics arrived. Once Mike was in the hospital, it was up to the doctors yes, but also Murray didn't tell the paramedics what he had given Michael. He left out the whole cocktail that he had given Michael. He only told them about the drug (Ephedra? not sure about the exact name atm) that he used to try to possibly reverse what he had done. But anyways, he could have just said he put that in Mike to save him but in reality that was what helped in napping him. It's in the autopsy report that was released my mind can't remember exactly what it said atm, but something along those lines.

No, this never came out in any report. The lividity was specifically told to us by the news.

It doesn't matter if he left out the cocktail to the paramedics. The goal was to get him breathing which they did. He was obviously intubated and a central line was put in to deliver the emergency medications.

I am not speculating what Murray told them or didn't. I don't know what he told them actually.

 

[amyzabeth]

No, this never came out in any report. The lividity was specifically told to us by the news.

It doesn't matter if he left out the cocktail to the paramedics. The goal was to get him breathing which they did. He was obviously intubated and a central line was put in to deliver the emergency medications.

I am not speculating what Murray told them or didn't. I don't know what he told them actually.

report, news, news report. same difference w.e And actually it does matter if Murray left out the cocktail of drugs he gave to Mike because they, the paramedics needed to know the exact things given to Michael and the amount, so then they would know what to give Michael to SAVE him. Murray said he didn't give Mike anything that could have caused Mike's napping. That was what he told the police when he mysteriously went MIA for a bit there. Then later he talks to the police again and they leak that Murray now tells them he gave Mike all these drugs, cocktail of drugs, plus Propofol. Again all that is in the leaked affidavit, which is basically Murray saying it.

And how do you know that they succeeded in getting Mike to breathe again? If that occurred then they, the paramedics would have been hurrying to the hospital instead of taking their good ol' time.

 

[Beachlover]

report, news, news report. same difference w.e And actually it does matter if Murray left out the cocktail of drugs he gave to Mike because they, the paramedics needed to know the exact things given to Michael and the amount, so then they would know what to give Michael to SAVE him. Murray said he didn't give Mike anything that could have caused Mike's napping. That was what he told the police when he mysteriously went MIA for a bit there. Then later he talks to the police again and they leak that Murray now tells them he gave Mike all these drugs, cocktail of drugs, plus Propofol. Again all that is in the leaked affidavit, which is basically Murray saying it.

And how do you know that they succeeded in getting Mike to breathe again? If that occurred then they, the paramedics would have been hurrying to the hospital instead of taking their good ol' time.

They intubated the patient so the breathing was being mechanically done. Thats what I mean by succeeded.

Again, it doesn't matter what he told them he gave. If, as you say, Murray was in charge he would have been calling the shots. If they give the antagonist for the drugs once and it doesn't work there isn't a lot more you can do there in the field. Even in the hospital, you can intubate the patient, put them on mechanical breathing and continue chest compressions but if you don't get the heart started back up its not going to save the patient in the end. There is a protocol put out by the American Heart Association to follow as far as what drugs to give to get the heart started.

You are putting a lot more into the interviews with Murray. We don't know if he spoke to them in the hospital or what he said. We don't have the exact transcript of what Murray told the police. We have what the police put on the warrant.

As far as the paramedics taking their sweet old time, thats not right either way and they did work on him in the hospital for about an hour....so then you are implying that the paramedics didn't care? They are not supposed to make any determination on their own and if the doctor didn't declare this patient as dead they had an obligation to get him to the hospital immediately and not take their sweet time.

See what I am saying. You have to be careful what you think and say.

What I have learned here from what does not make sense is to go BACK to the original source of the material and make a clear determination of what is FACT and what is heresay and what is just plain old filling in the blanks by the press.

Again, the news can report something as truth if it was STATED but that doesn't mean the person stating it is telling the truth and the news doesn't say that it is the truth. They are simply reporting that this is what was said and doesn't mean its true.

We can go in circles here all day but I think a lot of what we think happened never happened. Period. The story about the fireplace is from where? Who said it and when?

Just like the story of the bag of planted drugs in his room. (I don't believe they were there) Who put them there? These are just stories. We don't know if they really were there to begin with if someone was in that room before the police and yet many believe this.

 

[amyzabeth]

They intubated the patient so the breathing was being mechanically done. Thats what I mean by succeeded.

Again, it doesn't matter what he told them he gave. If, as you say, Murray was in charge he would have been calling the shots. If they give the antagonist for the drugs once and it doesn't work there isn't a lot more you can do there in the field. Even in the hospital, you can intubate the patient, put them on mechanical breathing and continue chest compressions but if you don't get the heart started back up its not going to save the patient in the end. There is a protocol put out by the American Heart Association to follow as far as what drugs to give to get the heart started.

You are putting a lot more into the interviews with Murray. We don't know if he spoke to them in the hospital or what he said. We don't have the exact transcript of what Murray told the police. We have what the police put on the warrant.

As far as the paramedics taking their sweet old time, thats not right either way and they did work on him in the hospital for about an hour....so then you are implying that the paramedics didn't care? They are not supposed to make any determination on their own and if the doctor didn't declare this patient as dead they had an obligation to get him to the hospital immediately and not take their sweet time.

See what I am saying. You have to be careful what you think and say.

What I have learned here from what does not make sense is to go BACK to the original source of the material and make a clear determination of what is FACT and what is heresay and what is just plain old filling in the blanks by the press.

Again, the news can report something as truth if it was STATED but that doesn't mean the person stating it is telling the truth and the news doesn't say that it is the truth. They are simply reporting that this is what was said and doesn't mean its true.

We can go in circles here all day but I think a lot of what we think happened never happened. Period. The story about the fireplace is from where? Who said it and when?

Just like the story of the bag of planted drugs in his room. (I don't believe they were there) Who put them there? These are just stories. We don't know if they really were there to begin with if someone was in that room before the police and yet many believe this.

We are just repeating ourselves over and over. We are not gonna go anywhere, we are just repeating ourselves. You can't provide me with new information that's valid. And that's the end of the conversation.

 

[Autumn II]

What I have learned here from what does not make sense is to go BACK to the original source of the material and make a clear determination of what is FACT and what is heresay and what is just plain old filling in the blanks by the press.

Again, the news can report something as truth if it was STATED but that doesn't mean the person stating it is telling the truth and the news doesn't say that it is the truth. They are simply reporting that this is what was said and doesn't mean its true.

We can go in circles here all day but I think a lot of what we think happened never happened. Period. The story about the fireplace is from where? Who said it and when?

Just like the story of the bag of planted drugs in his room. (I don't believe they were there) Who put them there? These are just stories. We don't know if they really were there to begin with if someone was in that room before the police and yet many believe this.

As was explained earlier, there is very little here that can be determined as "fact." For a few years now, and certainly during the trial, there has been an erosion of what used to be "mainstream news." A "fact" can originate with a tabloid, show up on CNN, and then the BBC. If all one knows is that one heard it on the BBC, one might tend to believe it?

What we are still doing here is SPECULATING, using the available information -- as cloudy as that may be. It's not possible to trace very many "facts" back to original sources. Even on Youtube, a lot has simply vanished. That's the best we can do here. This is in no way empirical or scientific, and some people just aren't comfortable with that. That's ok, but then please let's not expect "proofs." We are brainstorming here, ok? (Please everyone review Trish's post about not "requiring" proofs.)

Probably the best that can be done is speculate about possible scenarios, but not backtrack information to a reliable source. There are very few of those, except what the LAPD have, and. .. . good for them. . they're not leaking.

Carry on,

Vic

 

[Beachlover]

As was explained earlier, there is very little here that can be determined as "fact." For a few years now, and certainly during the trial, there has been an erosion of what used to be "mainstream news." A "fact" can originate with a tabloid, show up on CNN, and then the BBC. If all one knows is that one heard it on the BBC, one might tend to believe it?

What we are still doing here is SPECULATING, using the available information -- as cloudy as that may be. It's not possible to trace very many "facts" back to original sources. Even on Youtube, a lot has simply vanished. That's the best we can do here. This is in no way empirical or scientific, and some people just aren't comfortable with that. That's ok, but then please let's not expect "proofs." We are brainstorming here, ok? (Please everyone review Trish's post about not "requiring" proofs.)

Probably the best that can be done is speculate about possible scenarios, but not backtrack information to a reliable source. There are very few of those, except what the LAPD have, and. .. . good for them. . they're not leaking.

Carry on,

Vic

I am not asking for proof but there are things that are simply wrong and if it is known that it is wrong or misleading, I simply point that out.

Some news reports are like fires and they spread out of control. Much of what we have 'learned' about Murray is like that. I simply am saying that we really do not know what happened in that house because we don't have proof of anything at this point.

Its very easy to believe the stories that are being thrown out there but they simply can be proven false.

I feel as though you are trying to censor me for some reason and stop me from posting at times and I'm not sure why.

A lot of what was on You Tube is here on my hard drive because if I saw it I might have made a copy if at the time I felt it was important. I am sure there are many other fans who do that too.

I am not any less concerned than anyone else here in finding out what happened but I also will not persecute someone based on rumors. Thats not in my character and I see nothing wrong with not believing rumors and waiting for facts to come out.

 

[Autumn II]

There has been a continuing problem in the I.U. that's different from other parts of the board. And that is what's done here is SPECULATION. That continues to be the case, and the "proofs" just aren't THERE. That's really all there is to it, regardless of who desires them or how much they are desired, or for what reasons.

That's ok. I give up, at least on this open board. I've just been trying to make it easier for people to post their theories . . . . but good luck, y'all.

 

[Beachlover]

Probably the best that can be done is speculate about possible scenarios, but not backtrack information to a reliable source. There are very few of those, except what the LAPD have, and. .. . good for them. . they're not leaking.
Vic

Just to be clear. Sometimes it IS a good idea to go back and look at what was said and realize that what we think was said after that is speculation and not fact.

So, yes, facts are very important in an investigation. Some of what we do is brainstorming theories and that is fine but if something is stated as a fact and we build on an untrue 'fact' thats sending everyone off in the wrong direction and its wrong.

Based on what you are saying here is that we can just disregard facts and make a fantasy here as to how we really want it to be and thats not investigation at all.

I know you know this though.

It has taken me a while to piece things together in a complete sequence of events as to what is really true and much of what we originally believed in the beginning was not true. As warrants become released and other court documents are shown, things change. Without facts there is NO investigation at all.

As I said, some things are great for brainstorming but if you find something to be totally false it needs to be looked at again. That is part of investigations.

 

[Beachlover]

There has been a continuing problem in the I.U. that's different from other parts of the board. And that is what's done here is SPECULATION. That continues to be the case, and the "proofs" just aren't THERE. That's really all there is to it, regardless of who desires them or how much they are desired, or for what reasons.

That's ok. I give up, at least on this open board. I've just been trying to make it easier for people to post their theories . . . . but good luck, y'all.

Everyone is free to post a theory if they state thats what it is.

I don't see how coming up with a fact behind that theory that shows it can not be true is wrong. Clearly the police are investigating this case and want facts to back up the theories.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[kasume]

Everyone is free to post a theory if they state thats what it is.

I don't see how coming up with a fact behind that theory that shows it can not be true is wrong. Clearly the police are investigating this case and want facts to back up the theories.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with you.

And here are some facts.

1) Michael died unexpectedly just a few days before he was to embark on a major kick ass london tour.

2) Michael, who once said, "medicine dont know it all, do they" and "i rely on God's medicine, not those western chemicals" dies of a deadly western chemical which "he sees" as medicine......(yeah, like i will believe that) (and or at least this is a statement believed to be FACT by many people)

3) Michael had a another physical coming up before he was to leave for London (so why would he not keep himself healthy??)

And those are just three facts out of the whole bunch. And by combining those three facts together, there is just no way Micahel was murdered....

Michael Jackson died just days before he was to leave for London for his amazing tour. Turns out, he begged for a deadly drug called propofol. Even though he didn't believe so much in the knowledge of medicine, "western chemicials", he liked to call it, he still asked for that deadly substance anyways for a bit of shut eye. But Mr. Jackson, a drug addict, was not doing so well in keeping himself healthy and in top notch even though he had another physical coming up in just a few days.

Just imagaine if I combined all the facts...then you'll REALLY believe Michael wasn't murdered.

 

[MJJ7777]

I agree with you.

And here are some facts.

1) Michael died unexpectedly just a few days before he was to embark on a major kick ass london tour.

2) Michael, who once said, "medicine dont know it all, do they" and "i rely on God's medicine, not those western chemicals" dies of a deadly western chemical which "he sees" as medicine......(yeah, like i will believe that) (and or at least this is a statement believed to be FACT by many people)

3) Michael had a another physical coming up before he was to leave for London (so why would he not keep himself healthy??)

And those are just three facts out of the whole bunch. And by combining those three facts together, there is just no way Micahel was murdered....

Michael Jackson died just days before he was to leave for London for his amazing tour. Turns out, he begged for a deadly drug called propofol. Even though he didn't believe so much in the knowledge of medicine, "western chemicials", he liked to call it, he still asked for that deadly substance anyways for a bit of shut eye. But Mr. Jackson, a drug addict, was not doing so well in keeping himself healthy and in top notch even though he had another physical coming up in just a few days.

Just imagaine if I combined all the facts...then you'll REALLY believe Michael wasn't murdered.

Does the search warrant mention any natural medicine MJ might have been taking around the end?

I believe this is something MJ believed in carrying out(i.e., hiring nutritionist, eating healthy, ect.,) but maybe he was eventually persuaded into thinking that western chemicals fulfill their purpose more efficiently than do natural medicines?

I mean I'm sure they could have found natural medicine, if they didn't maybe they were removed?

In the end, he reverted back to western chemicals because he was forced to. The pressure was just too much to bear I suppose.

But I'm not sure what you're suggesting, is it that MJ was unaware of the medicines being given to him at the time that they were?

 

[Beachlover]

Well, those facts sure are interesting but since it was discussed that he used Propofol on one of his London Tours, I am going to assume he thought it was ok to use it.

Once Propofol is stopped and you wake up, you feel no lasting effects from what I am understanding though there are now more and more studies of long term use being done.

Oh, I believe he asked for the drug and I think he knew the dangers of it too. I just think he really felt he needed this to sleep and felt he was safe.

 

[kasume]

Well, those facts sure are interesting but since it was discussed that he used Propofol on one of his London Tours, I am going to assume he thought it was ok to use it.

Once Propofol is stopped and you wake up, you feel no lasting effects from what I am understanding though there are now more and more studies of long term use being done.

Oh, I believe he asked for the drug and I think he knew the dangers of it too. I just think he really felt he needed this to sleep and felt he was safe.

No matter how much I try to put it in my mind, I cannot imagine him taking the medicine even knowing of the danger HE COULD DIE. And even if he did ask for it that night, why would he ask for it with all those previous drugs injected into him, enough to take down a full grown bull elephant.

Like Firpo mentioned in his article, I don't think Michael could have had enough stamina and willpower to ask for even more medication after being injected with enought to take down a full grown bull elephant.

Once Propofol is stopped and you wake up, you feel no lasting effects from what I am understanding though there are now more and more studies of long term use being done.

These are just questions about the propofol drug IN GENERAL that I have.

I have never had surgery. But when patients wake up from surgery after being under Propofol, do they feel weak, or do they feel like they've had the best sleep ever in their lives?? To those of you who have had propofol in a hospital before, please tell me. Tell me, how exactly did you feel from waking up from it in the hospital.

Also, does anyone know if hospitals give propofol so their patients can just "sleep" or "rest"? Or is it just given for surgery?

 

[Beachlover]

These are just questions about the propofol drug IN GENERAL that I have.

I have never had surgery. But when patients wake up from surgery after being under Propofol, do they feel weak, or do they feel like they've had the best sleep ever in their lives?? To those of you who have had propofol in a hospital before, please tell me. Tell me, how exactly did you feel from waking up from it in the hospital.

Also, does anyone know if hospitals give propofol so their patients can just "sleep" or "rest"? Or is it just given for surgery?

PROPOFOL 101:

First of all, each person will have a different feeling on different drugs.

Many people enjoy the feeling they get with the Propofol. Its not a high but some say it is a great 'nap'. You can get this while having your teeth done, plastic surgery, Colonoscopy, other out patient procedures.

Some people enjoy it so much they inject themselves when they want to nap and I know someone who did that often and is no longer with us. It worked very well the last time......too well. (truth) But, this person said it was the coolest feeling when he was waking up.

So, no, it isn't just for surgery but they don't give this on the patient floors to sleep. They may give it to an intubated patient (one who has the breathing tube down their throat) to keep them sedated so they don't pull out the tube or if there are other reasons they need to keep them 'down'.

Versed (another drug used on Michael) will also knock you out. As you said, "take down a bull elephant" but if you do them often enough you build up a tolerance and need more.

I work in a hospital and I can't believe the amount of pain medication some people are taking. Most people would fall flat on their face and possibly stop breathing all together on some of the pain medicines people in the hospital take. Interestingly enough, there are some people who have been given a lot of pain medicine and will continue to ask for it even though they look groggy and out of it. Often we are pressured by the family who keeps telling us they are in pain and we give more because of the pressure and the next thing you know we have to give them the antagonist because their breathing slows to dangerously slow.

The big problem then is that all the pain comes right back to them and now they are awake and in a lot of pain. Sucks for them.

 

[callmerose]

No matter how much I try to put it in my mind, I cannot imagine him taking the medicine even knowing of the danger HE COULD DIE. And even if he did ask for it that night, why would he ask for it with all those previous drugs injected into him, enough to take down a full grown bull elephant.

Like Firpo mentioned in his article, I don't think Michael could have had enough stamina and willpower to ask for even more medication after being injected with enought to take down a full grown bull elephant.



These are just questions about the propofol drug IN GENERAL that I have.

I have never had surgery. But when patients wake up from surgery after being under Propofol, do they feel weak, or do they feel like they've had the best sleep ever in their lives?? To those of you who have had propofol in a hospital before, please tell me. Tell me, how exactly did you feel from waking up from it in the hospital.

Also, does anyone know if hospitals give propofol so their patients can just "sleep" or "rest"? Or is it just given for surgery?

I think Beachlover is right about people experiencing different things with propofol. I have had propofol before and it doesn't make me feel rested but neither do I feel groggy after. It is just like a chunk of my life is missing and I feel like i did before i took it. But Michael had really bad bouts of insomnia and when he did sleep he often had nightmares. Maybe with propofol he could sleep without nightmares???

But, I still am not convinced that he asked for propofol or used it in past years. The only info I have heard about that was from Murray (who I do not trust for a minute) or rumors with no identified source. So, even though I can understand if Michael was using propofol to sleep, I still haven't heard anything to convince me that he actually asked for it the day he died.

 

[MJJ7777]

Didn't he use it during the HIStory tours?

 

[rainny]

But Michael had really bad bouts of insomnia and when he did sleep he often had nightmares. Maybe with propofol he could sleep without nightmares???
.

Thank you for posting that. Did he talk about having nightmares anywhere?

 

[funkyfish]

A quick question, apologies if this has been discussed before. What do people think about the fairly big gap in time between when murray says he gave mj the propofol and the midazolam i think it was? If i'm not mistaken theres a 3 hour gap there, and surely it doesn't make sense for mj to have been awake and requesting propofol for that long? I mean if he WAS awake Murray probably would have given in alot earlier.....unless mj was initially asleep and then woke up later?
Ack, i've begun rambling and i think i may have answered my own question. To anyone with any medical knowledge, does it make sense for the drugs murray gave before the propofol, to have worn off sufficiantly within those 3 hours for mj to be alert enough to ask for propofol at all?

Of course this entire timeline comes from murray himself so be entirely bull.
Sorry if none of this makes any sense.

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself 'cause i think my post got a little lost while it was being approved by the mods, and i'd really like to know what you guys think.

 

[Beachlover]

Here is some information regarding the use of Propofol and who gave it to him prior to Murray:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html

Drug allegations swirl

Also Thursday, a Los Angeles law enforcement source told The Associated Press that investigators found Diprivan, a powerful sedative, in Jackson's home.

A nutritionist, Cherilyn Lee, said earlier in the week that Jackson pleaded for the drug despite being told of its harmful effects.

Doctors say the drug, whose generic name is Propofol, can lead to cardiac arrest when the heart abruptly stops.

Jackson traveled with what amounted to a mini-clinic, complete with an IV pole and an anesthesiologist who medicated the insomniac singer during his HIStory tour in the mid-'90s, sources close to Jackson told CNN Thursday.

The information sheds new light on perhaps the central unanswered question in Jackson's death: Were prescription drugs involved?

On Thursday, the California attorney general's office said it is helping the Los Angeles Police Department in the death investigation.

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration is also looking into the role of drugs, two federal law enforcement sources said a day earlier.

Authorities do not know what killed Jackson and await toxicology results, which are due back in two to three weeks, the Los Angeles County coroner said Thursday.

Whether or not drugs played a role in the singer's death, the accounts of the sources who spoke to CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta show that Jackson was -- at least in the past -- routinely administered potent drugs to help him sleep.

Speculation about the role of drugs has been swirling since Jackson died on June 25, and the sources who spoke with Gupta about the HIStory tour seemed to fuel the fire.

The anesthesiologist who accompanied Jackson during the 82-date world tour in 1996 and 1997 was Dr. Neil Ratner, the sources said.

They said Ratner would keep medical equipment in his hotel room, which he used to monitor Jackson's vital signs when the singer was asleep or "under," as one source put it. Video Watch CNN's Dr. Gupta ask Dr. Ratner about his involvement with Michael Jackson »

The doctor apparently said Jackson had trouble sleeping and that Ratner helped "take him down" and "bring him back up," according to the source.

Ratner confirmed to CNN that Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder, but refused to address any of the other allegations.

And Also http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2000/02/09/2000-02-09_crocked_doc_won_t_say_if_he_.html

An upper East Side doctor who shot himself up with morphine while treating patients said yesterday that he was pop star Michael Jackson's tour doctor in 1997.

Dr. Neil Ratner, testifying yesterday in the insurance fraud trial of high-profile infertility expert Dr. Niels Lauersen, was evasive when asked if he had administered drugs to the Gloved One.

"Would you give Michael Jackson drugs?" Lauersen's demanded attorney, Theodore Wells.

This doctor also apparently lost his license for a while, so it would stand to reason he won't talk about this.

I posted this for those of you who asked if he used this drug before. It would seem that he had and he used a doctor that was questionable.

 

[riviera1992]

Well this is just fine and dandy. It seems that every medical personel who have given Michael drugs are turning out to be unreliable. They all have change their wording at some point and IMO, should all be interogated hooked up to a lie detector.

Until then, I don't believe ANY of'em.

And I never thought I'd say this but, at this point it looks like Klein is the one lying the least. How crazy is this?