Katherine & MJ's kids sue AEG / Trial date April 2, 2013

[HeroR]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

It will not be a PR disaster IF their stance is
" We're not going anywhere, we'll ride this thing through..
we're here to defend our good name" .
Many a times corporations avoid long drawn-out civil suit battles by settling out of court.
IF they do not cop-out to monetary settlement by pre-empting any court proceedings, then it's OK.
It will not be a PR disaster for Katherine.
A mother who's lost a son,
three kids left fatherless,
and at 12 years old, a son was made to watch his father dying at the bedside...
all of them deserve to be accorded with evey iota of the truth.
With conspiracy theories going viral & conflicting reports choking up their necks,
even if it means going the civil suit route to get it, so be it.

At least let them go to due process and the chips fall whatever it may.

Yes, big cooperations usually settle because of public pressure. Even if they win, no company looks good if they were charge with sexual assault for example. Much like what happened with JcPenny and Janet G. Or what happened with Michael and Chandler. Even if he went to court and won, his name would be dragged through the mug. Think of 2005. So, it is usually better to settle and cut their loses. However, that is only really the case if the PR is terrible for them going in.

And this had already been a PR disaster for Katherine. People are actually telling the Jacksons to go away and let what left of Michael rest in peace. They even played clips of TII to show Michael was healthy and this lawsuit if greatly flawed. There were even people who didn't pity her before because she didn't protect Michael from Joe and then took up for the abuser. So, Mrs. Jackson is losing the PR war. That is why Taj is mad at people for talking about his grandmom, it is not just fans or the media.

A mother may have lost her son, but from the point of view of the public, it looks like the family has been using Michael's death to cash in. Given that some members have indeed sold stories to the tabs and we have that nice NOTW interview from Joe, who is also suing Murray, the family has given good reason for people to think that.

 

[Sophielo]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Its been a disaster publicity wise when you have the same tabloids that hounded Michael throughout his life criticising the Jacksons for using him for their own gain.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Its just so sad the ridicule a mother has to suffer because she wants to find out what happened to her own son. It is terrible and I am ashamed of some people acting the way that they are..Katherine does NOT need the money ..she NEEDS to know what happened to Michael. I hear people say they care..but when his own Mother tries to do the right thing and hire hopefully the right people to help find out...the poor woman gets ridiculed by those saying..she is doing it for the money. ....I doubt VERY highly that Michael would approve of this behavior...so maybe those people should take a deep look within themselves and reevaluate.

 

[Naturelle]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Its just so sad the ridicule a mother has to suffer because she wants to find out what happened to her own son. It is terrible and I am ashamed of some people acting the way that they are..Katherine does NOT need the money ..she NEEDS to know what happened to Michael. I hear people say they care..but when his own Mother tries to do the right thing and hire hopefully the right people to help find out...the poor woman gets ridiculed by those saying..she is doing it for the money. ....I doubt VERY highly that Michael would approve of this behavior...so maybe those people should take a deep look within themselves and reevaluate.

So true. If Prince was called to witness, Murrary needs to go jail/hell.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Its just so sad the ridicule a mother has to suffer because she wants to find out what happened to her own son. It is terrible and I am ashamed of some people acting the way that they are..Katherine does NOT need the money ..she NEEDS to know what happened to Michael. I hear people say they care..but when his own Mother tries to do the right thing and hire hopefully the right people to help find out...the poor woman gets ridiculed by those saying..she is doing it for the money. ....I doubt VERY highly that Michael would approve of this behavior...so maybe those people should take a deep look within themselves and reevaluate.

Thank you. I highly doubt that Michael would tolerate anyone disrespecting his mother! I think we need to go waaay back, to Michael's message, and his life, where he was so very kind to everyone.

TheChosenOne reminded us to keep to the facts of this topic. Thanks for the reminder. I concur.

Here are some facts that can be verified:

1. These attorneys will NOT "be paid one way or another." Read up to what was posted, or check out their website (link, above, in the thread, or just Google "Panish law firm"). They work ONLY on contingency. The Jacksons are paying them NOTHING. The attorneys only are paid if/when they receive a percentage of the award, if they win. That means that they incur their own expenses, and would be highly motivated to win.

2. The attorneys on BOTH sides are very credible, and well-respected. (see Ivy's post, above, about AEG's attorneys, too.)

3. A contract signed by all parties is NOT essential to proving this case. Read up, about "oral contracts" and the law, and also, the guideline of the "preponderance of evidence" in a civil suit (as opposed to "beyond all reasonable doubt," in a criminal trial.) If there is enough evidence that indicates both AEG and Murray understood that Murray was in their employ, that would be enough for a jury in a civil case.

4. It's been stated that AEG will "settle." I believe that is not possible. Read the attorneys' website. They are trial lawyers, and rarely, if ever, settle cases out-of-court.

Personally, I believe that Murray will plea-bargain and there will be no criminal trial. If so, then the civil trial will be the only chance for him, and others, to testify. We don't know all of what evidence either side may have, but they deserve to be heard. I realize that fans want Michael to be able to "rest in peace." Michael has died, but I seriously doubt that his children, or his mother, are "at peace" with so many unanswered questions.

 

[rainny]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

still..there's something fishy about a 'contract' that goes from ten, to fifty shows to three years, etc. etc. i don't like Randy Phillips.

MJ's manager at the time was Tohme. Why are the Jacksons quiet about him?

Why sue Kenny Ortega, the creative director, and not Tohme?

Who is Tohme besides being a relative of Halima?

 

[8701girl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

MJ's manager at the time was Tohme. Why are the Jacksons quiet about him?

Why sue Kenny Ortega, the creative director, and not Tohme?

Who is Tohme besides being a relative of Halima?

They properly dont know who tohme is....

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

MJ's manager at the time was Tohme. Why are the Jacksons quiet about him?

Why sue Kenny Ortega, the creative director, and not Tohme?

Who is Tohme besides being a relative of Halima?

Don't know. There are 100+ people mentioned, but not listed by name on the initial document, so they well may have listed Tohme. No way to know, now. We have to wait and see who the other defendants will be. The document filed was just an initial filing. I'd expect it would be many months before there is anything else on this lawsuit. The criminal trial will come first, I'd expect, because the DA's office holds evidence that might be used in a civil suit.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Don't know. There are 100+ people mentioned, but not listed by name on the initial document, so they well may have listed Tohme. No way to know, now. We have to wait and see who the other defendants will be. The document filed was just an initial filing. I'd expect it would be many months before there is anything else on this lawsuit. The criminal trial will come first, I'd expect, because the DA's office holds evidence that might be used in a civil suit.

I hope Tohme is named eventually.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

They properly dont know who tohme is....

He really can not be forgotten. Jermaine should know many things about Tohme. After all, it was he who introduced him to Michael. h34r:

 

[8701girl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

He really can not be forgotten. Jermaine should know many things about Tohme. After all, it was he who introduced him to Michael. h34r:

Oh so jermaine introtuced mj to tohme......wow....


Maybe thohme has threatned them ..i hope not.

 

[ivy]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

I personally do not think Tohme could be added to this lawsuit. This is not a lawsuit about AEG - Michael contract or the number of shows.

This is based on AEG - Murray contract / agreement and starts with the time that AEG had problems with Michael missing rehearsals and shows intention to hire Murray - which is early May 09- By that time Tohme was already out of the picture.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Oh so jermaine introtuced mj to tohme......wow....


Maybe thohme has threatned them ..i hope not.

Well, that's what they say, but it is impossible to have 1000% sure of things in this story. Certainly has much more that is distant from our eyes. :fear:

 

[rainny]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Jermaine should know many things about Tohme. After all, it was he who introduced him to Michael. h34r:

Not only that, but Brian Oxman was asked about Tohme's involvement,

and he said Tohme to still be around in different capacities, and that he has

an office in L.A.

He said that on Eddie Jones' radio show. He also said Tohme to be related

to Halima.

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Well, that's what they say, but it is impossible to have 1000% sure of things in this story. Certainly has much more that is distant from our eyes. :fear:

True, theres so many different stories going round that i just dont know which one is truthful.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

I personally do not think Tohme could be added to this lawsuit. This is not a lawsuit about AEG Michael contract or the number of shows.

This is based on AEG - Murray contract / agreement and starts with the time that AEG had problems with Michael missing rehearsals and shows intention to hire Murray - which is early May 09- By that time Tohme was already out of the picture.

Probably, you are right. It all depends on who those additional defendants are. Tohme has gone on record saying he negotiated the concerts. He and Randy Philips met with Michael in the summer of 2008 about the concerts, when Michael was living in Las Vegas. It is not known if a contractual agreement existed between Tohme and Philips, or an oral agreement, or an "understanding? They surely knew each other, though, long-term. (R.P. is Tohme's ex-brother-in-law).

 

[8701girl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Thats right i forgot bout that.

 

[ivy]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Probably, you are right. It all depends on who those additional defendants are. Tohme has gone on record saying he negotiated the concerts. He and Randy Philips met with Michael in the summer of 2009 about the concerts, when Michael was living in Las Vegas. It is not known if a contractual agreement existed between Tohme and Philips, or an oral agreement, or an "understanding? They surely knew each other, though, long-term. (R.P. is Tohme's ex-brother-in-law).

I believe Tohme negotiated the concerts . If you look to the copy of the contract on the Internet it has a front page that's addressed to Tohme.

However this lawsuit depends on the fact that there was a contract between AEG and Michael and therefore they had a responsibility for the well-being of Michael and negligent in some regards. So do not expect Jackson's to question the validity of AEG - Michael contract , it would defeat the whole purpose.

 

[Moulin Rouge]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

I hope Tohme is named eventually.

I do too, he was very active in Michael's life during the last year and he doesn't sit well with me the way he was controlling Michael's finances. I thought Michael fired him yet he showed up at the hospital June 25 claiming to be his manager.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

This tour was very different from all the others. In other tours, Michael paid for all employees (MJJProductions) with the sponsorship of other entities. For this tour, all were paid by AEG, were under contract (including confidentiality agreements) and Michael, himself, was an "employee" of AEG in this instance. They were fronting him the money to pay for rent, staff, and a lot else, to be taken out of his earnings. The contract is online, and is NOT really beneficial to Michael. He owed all expenses back, to AEG. Including his house-rental in Holmby Hills, which is said to have been hugely inflated.

Just FYI, this was the FIRST time Michael was going to tour without a record to promote. It all hinged on those concerts. In other tours, Michael hired a private videography crew, where he owned the footage. (i.e. the Bashir rebuttal) Again, this was different. AEG taped and owned the footage. TII was released in partnership with Sony. (profits). The memorial was also an AEG production.

This is very complex, and there is much that is not known. Personally, I support Katherine and Michael's children, so the evidence can come out. Michael is "at rest," but they are not, and maybe this will help them to move on, however it transpires?

 

[#1MJstan]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Its just so sad the ridicule a mother has to suffer because she wants to find out what happened to her own son. It is terrible and I am ashamed of some people acting the way that they are..Katherine does NOT need the money ..she NEEDS to know what happened to Michael. I hear people say they care..but when his own Mother tries to do the right thing and hire hopefully the right people to help find out...the poor woman gets ridiculed by those saying..she is doing it for the money. ....I doubt VERY highly that Michael would approve of this behavior...so maybe those people should take a deep look within themselves and reevaluate.

I couldn't agree with you more.. :clapping:
I guess some feel as if fans have more right to know than the person that has known him since he was moving around in HER womb

I just hope this brings everyone some type of closure once all the evidence is in and all trials have ended.

I think there is more evidence out there that we the fans may not be privy to.. I know ppl have sued others with next to nothing in terms of proof, but because this is a high profile case I don't think those lawyers would come ill prepared. As someone stated earlier, these lawyers don't get paid unless they win so, I am sure Mrs Jackson's crew not trying to get a mark in the "Losing" column. AEG's lawyers are probably on the payroll already so they will get a check regardless.

 

[Sophielo]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

I believe the truth needs to come out. We have so many different stories about AEG, Murray etc that when we do have the truth it is going to be a very hard and difficult pill to swallow. We have two portrayals of Michael being painted. One from AEG-a thin but fit and enthusiastic Michael who was in control when he got to rehearsals who went through two full run throughs before he passed, the man we see in TII. Then we have the other painted by the Jacksons-the Michael who was frail, ill, scared, disorientated-a man forced to to these concerts by AEG. Michael means so much to me and I can empathise with the Jacksons as I want to know what happened to him and want everyone who was potentially involved in his death to pay for it. A wonderful man was taken away from his children and left us fan devastated. All I want is the truth to come out. It may really hurt but I couldn't hurt much more-the worst already happened. In the end of the day Michael should still be here watching his children become adults, not lying at Forest Lawn, and I want to know why we have the latter and not the former.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

I believe the truth needs to come out. We have so many different stories about AEG, Murray etc that when we do have the truth it is going to be a very hard and difficult pill to swallow. We have two portrayals of Michael being painted. One from AEG-a thin but fit and enthusiastic Michael who was in control when he got to rehearsals who went through two full run throughs before he passed, the man we see in TII. Then we have the other painted by the Jacksons-the Michael who was frail, ill, scared, disorientated-a man forced to to these concerts by AEG. Michael means so much to me and I can empathise with the Jacksons as I want to know what happened to him and want everyone who was potentially involved in his death to pay for it. A wonderful man was taken away from his children and left us fan devastated. All I want is the truth to come out. It may really hurt but I couldn't hurt much more-the worst already happened. In the end of the day Michael should still be here watching his children become adults, not lying at Forest Lawn, and I want to know why we have the latter and not the former.

I think both scenarios of MJ's state of being are true. I think he was ill, frail and scared-- AT TIMES. The uncertainty and fear about these concerts were evident even when he made the anouncement. He came out on that podium with a strut, but underneath was a lack of confidence. It was thinly veiled, as thin as his physical stature already was. Until he heard that response. That seemed to overwhelm him, surprise him, but greatly greatly gratified him. Even puffed him out a little there.

But then the realization of the expectations of him set in, the ones that he placed on himself far greater than any expectations fans would have, all compounded by the press he knew lay in wait to crucify him. So yeah, he went to doctors to help him get through the physical and mental demands, which included being able to sleep. I don't believe he was ever disoriented because of a physical affirmity, but medication.

His loss of weight was very alarming, but for Michael and his pre-existing conditions of lupus and some arthritis, I do believe he was physically "fit and enthusiastic" I think he was fully engaged in every aspect of the concerts, was slower, not hitting all the right notes initially, but as he said, that's what rehearsals were for. Did he miss some rehearsals? That wasn't unusual for MJ. Landis said during the filming of Black and White, they had a crew costing thousands of dollars standing around waiting for MJ to show up. Landis had to go out and find him. In fact he said the reason MJ's partners asked him to take over direction of B&W was because they felt MJ would show up for him. The difference was then it was Michael footing the bills. With TII, it was AEG, even if it was in the form of advances that MJ would pay back from tour profits.

By the last couple of rehearsals, I do believe MJ was fully back on his game as AEG and persons with no association whatsoever with AEG and who were actually there are saying. That smile of satisfaction on Michael's face when he finishes the TDCAU set is unmistakeable.

It is apparent that MJ was going through various phases during preparation for the shows. Everyone was under immense pressure. I do believe AEG gave MJ ultimatums, and didn't particularly care how MJ got to rehearsals, as long as he got there LUCID and ready to work. That attitude isn't unusual in ANY working situation, especially when there is a lot on the line for EVERYONE involved. AEG was indeed complicit in compounding MJ's life, I just haven't seen legitimate points in Katherine's suit to show they directed Muiray in ending it. I'm hoping her attorneys really do have more evidence and truths, otherwise I think putting MJ's children in the midst of a lawsuit is unjustified.

 

[Big Apple2]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

We have two portrayals of Michael being painted. One from AEG-a thin but fit and enthusiastic Michael who was in control when he got to rehearsals who went through two full run throughs before he passed, the man we see in TII. Then we have the other painted by the Jacksons-the Michael who was frail, ill, scared, disorientated-a man forced to to these concerts by AEG.

I look forward to seeing that "full dress rehearsal of Thriller."

As I recall, Ken Erlich (the Grammy guy) was present that night. He was there to discuss ANOTHER project with Michael and Erlich said that "Michael's performance of Thriller was so good the hairs on the back of his neck were standing up."

I have a feeling that we will be seeing that full dress rehearsal SOONER than later. I, for one, can't wait to see it and I'm hoping that we all have that opportunity real soon

 

[ivy]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

This tour was very different from all the others. In other tours, Michael paid for all employees (MJJProductions) with the sponsorship of other entities. For this tour, all were paid by AEG, were under contract (including confidentiality agreements) and Michael, himself, was an "employee" of AEG in this instance. They were fronting him the money to pay for rent, staff, and a lot else, to be taken out of his earnings. The contract is online, and is NOT really beneficial to Michael. He owed all expenses back, to AEG. Including his house-rental in Holmby Hills, which is said to have been hugely inflated.

In all fairness this wasn't a tour, it was a residency. I would so like to see a similar contract (such as Cher's 3 year 200 shows $60M Vegas Residency contract with AEG) to make a decent comparison.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

In all fairness this wasn't a tour, it was a residency. I would so like to see a similar contract (such as Cher's 3 year 200 shows $60M Vegas Residency contract with AEG) to make a decent comparison.

If this was supposed to be a residency for 50 shows. Why were dancers saying they were under contract to the show for three years?

 

[ivy]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

If this was supposed to be a residency for 50 shows. Why were dancers saying they were under contract to the show for three years?

Katherine's lawsuit and Randy Phillips own statements all say that it was discussed to take the residency eventually to other AEG owned venues around the world over time. For example if the O2 shows were successful / profitable they could have taken the show to the O2 arena in Berlin, or another venues that AEG owned at Shanghai, Vegas etc. It looks like Michael had only signed the UK leg for the time being. (The contract that's online explicitly states O2 arena in London).

ps: it makes sense to hold on to the dancers /musicians etc if you had long term plans. Rehiring and retraining dancers / musicians, again holding rehearsals etc is more hassle than signing long term contracts.

edited to add : when you look to AEG and residency deals they tend to be multi year , hundreds of shows type of contracts. Celine Dion's contract ranged to 5 years and 700 shows, Cher's was around 3 years 200 shows and so was Bette Midler's contract.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

There are huge portions of the contract redacted online. I wonder if they had to redact portions of the contract that Katherine saw or she saw the whole thing.

 

[gerryevans]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

In all fairness this wasn't a tour, it was a residency. I would so like to see a similar contract (such as Cher's 3 year 200 shows $60M Vegas Residency contract with AEG) to make a decent comparison.

I'd also be interested in learning the industry standards for hiring staff for the artist. Are background checks ever done for persons that the artist requests. In ginvid's info,she mentioned that a bank would be expected to do a background check on someone before they're hired, despite someone's request to have them on staff.

It may be a whole different animal for the concert business. I was in radio for a while and when a dj wanted someone specific as their producer, the producer was hired, regardless of if the program director personally hated the producer or not (and technically both the dj and producer were subordinates of the program director). If the dj was of a certatin stature, the program director didn't even meet the producer in advance. The producer was considered part of the dj's crew, and if he wanted him, he got him.

The company paid the producer, but his employment hinged entirely on the dj. If the dj wanted him gone, no matter how good the company thought he might be and wanted him to remain, the producer was gone. His employment was at the sole discretion of the dj.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Wrongful death lawsuits - Katherine and MJ's kids sue AEG / Murray responds to Joe's lawsuit

Katherine's lawsuit and Randy Phillips own statements all say that it was discussed to take the residency eventually to other AEG owned venues around the world over time. For example if the O2 shows were successful / profitable they could have taken the show to the O2 arena in Berlin, or another venues that AEG owned at Shanghai, Vegas etc. It looks like Michael had only signed the UK leg for the time being. (The contract that's online explicitly states O2 arena in London).

ps: it makes sense to hold on to the dancers /musicians etc if you had long term plans. Rehiring and retraining dancers / musicians, again holding rehearsals etc more hassle than signing long term contracts.

edited to add : when you look to AEG and residency deal they tend to be multi year contracts. Celine Dion's contract ranged to 5 years 700 shows, Cher's was around 3 years 200 shows and so did Bette Midler.

I'm not disputing what you said. I just want to add that the letter to Tohme characterizes the show as a tour and the dates as just one leg of this tour. The letter also gives AEG the right to add dates based on their need to recoup profits. I don't think fans however have a clear picture of the total contract since a lot of it is redacted.