Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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My sister explained to me why a catheter was used when the autopsy report was released. I can't remember much more than what I said already.

She did not answer her phone. If I get more info, I will post it.

Maybe those in the medical field here can help make it clearer.
From what I know about anesthesia...is when you are put under that deep and are receiving fluids ..as Michael was..he had the fluids hooked up...your body naturally wants to void the waste..his bladder would of filled up faster because of constant fluid intake...so a catheter would of been necessary for that purpose..otherwise..Michael would of had urine all over.
 
and if he was goingn to be knocked out, what about rehearsals? & what would janet testify if she was not there too?
 
From Erin in court:

The defense have asked every witness so far did they ever touch the syringes, IV lines and vials and they are all in total shock and say no... The defense don't seem to have a specific strategy - more so just trying to see who else came into contact with Murray's supplies...
 
And someone who needs propofol to sleep is advised not to eat or drink something for a time before.
Vicious cycle...
 
That way they can try to say it is contaminated and it should not be used
 
Maybe he trusted the doctor and didn't realize he was being involved in a cover up. Perhaps he didn't think of it as "cleaning up", maybe he was just instructed to "put these vials in this bag", which could be for any number of reasons...that they would need them in the ambulence, that the UCLA drs would need to see what he took,...who knows. Maybe at the time what was happening didn't seem as sinister as it does now - knowing everything we know now. I so wish we had the transcripts. Things can be interpreted so so so many ways. :(


He claimed to have known Michael was dead on the bed, so wouldn't you call for help first and pray that the MTs can revive the person instead of picking up drugs? Even when Elvis wad found dead on the bathroom floor, his people waited for the ambulance to take him away before they hid anything.

If it was you and you saw someone who was dead, would you be picking up their medication and hiding it? I don't mean this to be mean, but I don't think that would be the first human response.
 
We are talking from our computers about what we would have done. None of us where there
 
More details

Michael Jackson hearing: Family members weep as more details emerge on pop star's death


With Michael Jackson lying lifeless in a bed, his doctor ordered a security guard to remove an IV bag of medication resembling the anesthetic blamed in the pop star’s death before calling for an ambulance, the guard testified Wednesday.

Alberto Alvarez told a Superior Court judge deciding whether there is enough evidence to try Dr. Conrad Murray for involuntary manslaughter that the physician first told him the singer needed an ambulance urgently, but then instructed him to gather up medical vials and an IV bag in larger bags.

“I noticed that inside (the IV bag), there was like a bottle ... and then I noticed that at the bottom of the bag there was a milk-like substance,” Alvarez testified. The surgical anesthetic propofol –- which the coroner said caused Jackson’s death -- is a white liquid administered intravenously.

Murray, 57, acknowledged giving the singer propofol as a sleep aid in an interview with police, authorities have said.

Testifying on the second day of the preliminary hearing, Alvarez offered the closest view yet of Murray’s behavior after Jackson stopped breathing in a bedroom of his rented Holmby Hills mansion.

The first security guard on the scene, Alvarez said that when he arrived in the bedroom, Murray was doing chest compressions on Jackson in the bed with one hand.
“He said, ‘We need to get him a hospital. We need to get an ambulance,’” Alvarez quoted Murray as telling him.

He said that when he asked Murray what had happened, the doctor said Jackson “had a bad reaction.”

But soon after that, Murray grabbed a handful of medical vials from Jackson’s nightstand and told Alvarez to place them in a bag, the guard testified. He repeated the instruction for the IV bag containing the white substance, but did not tell him to remove another IV bag, he said.

Only then, Alvarez testified, did the doctor order him to call for an ambulance.

Paramedics and emergency room doctors are expected to testify later in the hearing that Murray concealed his use of propofol from them as they worked to save Jackson’s life.

Prosecutors have said other medical experts will testify that Murray did not have proper monitoring equipment for administering propofol, a drug that can suppress the respiratory system.

Alvarez said he did not see any heart or blood pressure monitors in the room, but Murray clipped a monitoring device to Jackson’s finger after paramedics were called.

Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren played the 911 call for Judge Michael Pastor.

When Alvarez told the emergency operator that the stricken man’s personal physician was there, the operator expressed surprise.

“Oh, you have a doctor there?” the operator said, adding the doctor would be the “higher authority.”

Alvarez said before they arrived, Murray asked him and another security guard if they knew how to perform CPR. Prosecutors have said Murray was doing it incorrectly by using one hand and on a soft mattress.

Alvarez said the 911 operator told them to move Jackson to the floor to administer CPR. There, Alvarez said, he did chest compressions while Murray gave the singer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.

“After the second time, he gave a breath, he came up and said, 'You know, this is the first time I give mouth to mouth, but I have to do it, he’s my friend,'" Alvarez said.

In the spectator’s gallery, Janet Jackson, the singer’s sister, shook her head and held the bridge of her nose with her fingers. Jackson family members and friends filled an entire row in the courtroom for the dramatic testimony.

His mother, Katherine, dabbed away tears as Alvarez recalled Jackson’s daughter, Paris, rushing into the bedroom where her father lay stricken and screaming, “Daddy!”

Alvarez, his own voice choking with emotion, recalled Murray shouting, “Get them out! Get them out! Don’t let them see their father like this.”

The cardiologist, who was tending to Jackson during a comeback attempt, has pleaded not guilty and said through his lawyers that he did nothing that should have caused Jackson’s death.

Under cross-examination, Alvarez acknowledged he had not told police in two initial interviews that Murray had ordered him to remove potential evidence.

“You didn’t think it was suspicious?” asked defense lawyer Ed Chernoff.

“Apparently not, sir,” Alvarez said.

“You thought he was packing up to go to the hospital, right?” the lawyer asked.

“Yes, sir,” Alvarez replied.

Chernoff also questioned Alvarez about his relationship with the Jackson family, which briefly employed him as a guard for the late singer’s children, and his discussions with other Jackson staffers, with whom he shares an attorney.

Alvarez acknowledged that he had refused to speak to a defense investigator who had sought to interview him, but that in a police interview he had said he might sell his story to the media at a later date.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...g-more-details-on-day-of-pop-stars-death.html
 
Hanging from railings whilst a patient was in distress, not going how to do CPR, instructing people to hide evidence. How on earth can this get any worse?
 
We are talking from our computers about what we would have done. None of us where there

That's very true. I'm not excusing it or condoning at all...but in those circumstances I imagine you'd be in a huge state of shock. Murray was the voice of 'authority' there. You know, he wasn't thinking clearly. Nobody was except this SOB Murray it seems.
 
Question: will the full and complete court transcripts become available as public record?
 
CNN In Session

Conrad Murray Hearing: Alvarez testifies Conrad Murray asked him to put an I.V. bag, medicine bottles and vials into another bag in Jackson's room

Alvarez says that the I.V. bag had 'very little fluid' in it and that there was a 'white, milky substance' at the bottom of the I.V. bag.
 
We are talking from our computers about what we would have done. None of us where there


True, but I've known several in my family who had to make life and death decisions on the fly and I know that people don't normally think straight when they are in a panic.

For example, my auntie couldn't even dial 911 when my uncle had his heart attack. Nonetheless, she knew to call for help before anything else. Same thing with my grandfather, my grandmother called my mom and she had to call 911, but my grandmother still knew to call for help. Which is what I am basing my opinion on.

Which is why, I can't understand someone's first response to someone in distress is to pick up drugs and not run to the nearest phone.
 
when did Rebbie, Janet & Katharine arrive? All at once that day? Janet was doing her movie...

they arrived seperate. jant n rebbie together. katherine came with joe. toya byherself and randy was byhimself. janet is not filming a movie.
 
From Erin in court:

The defense have asked every witness so far did they ever touch the syringes, IV lines and vials and they are all in total shock and say no... The defense don't seem to have a specific strategy - more so just trying to see who else came into contact with Murray's supplies...

i guess if anyone dares to say yes they get acused of being the murderer:doh:
 
Removed as it was explained and not to cause further confusion.
 
Last edited:
ivy;3175717 said:
More details
Under cross-examination, Alvarez acknowledged he had not told police in two initial interviews that Murray had ordered him to remove potential evidence.

“You didn’t think it was suspicious?” asked defense lawyer Ed Chernoff.

“Apparently not, sir,” Alvarez said.

“You thought he was packing up to go to the hospital, right?” the lawyer asked.

“Yes, sir,” Alvarez replied.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...g-more-details-on-day-of-pop-stars-death.html

Cause, you know, the hospital would not have the drugs necessary! It's like packing to go to the beach and taking your own sand!
 
It should be on accesshollywood tonight. One reporter was saying that a lot of MJ fans were outside & one was wearing a arm band, one person yelled at Dr. Murray "dead man walking!"
 
And someone who needs propofol to sleep is advised not to eat or drink something for a time before.
Vicious cycle...


true.. before you go in for sugery they tell you not to eat for like 12 hours before
 
“I noticed that inside (the IV bag), there was like a bottle ... and then I noticed that at the bottom of the bag there was a milk-like substance,” Alvarez testified

ok, that's a VIAL .
 
Cause, you know, the hospital would not have the drugs necessary! It's like packing to go to the beach and taking your own sand!

when you go to a doctor in US they always tell you to bring your medications or a list of it.I think it's probable that Alvarez might have thought they'll go the hospital and show the doctors the medicines so that they can do the proper treatment.
 
We are talking from our computers about what we would have done. None of us where there

true.. i was just about to say that. none of us dont know what we would have done.... in panic situations like that your brain isnt working the same as when youre calm
 
I don't understand, why security guard listened Murray and began grabbing medicine bottles, bags from an IV, while your boss is lifeless on a bed... I wouldn't touch there anything..

Exactly! They should call 911 immidiately, not to wait 20 freaking minutes!. This is all they had to do. Now it is easy to say that they were cleaning up as Murray said if their fingerprits were found on these bottels. I do not believe these bodyguards either.
 
I just spoke to my sister and she said she doesn't know why they would use a condom catheter as opposed to a regular catheter as the regular catheter would constantly expend the urine. She said catheters can be used for sedation for long periods of time, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

I was also looking online. I don't know who this person is, it's from Yahoo Answers, but maybe someone here can help. This is what was said:


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070303014012AAgbuvs

So people what are we missing? If a condom catherters requires a patient to urinate as usual, then why would that one be used if MJ was supposed to be asleep?

I don't mean to get stuck on this, I am just very curious now. I will keep looking.
IMO...they couldnt hook Michael up to a foley every ingle night....when a foley is inserted it is ment to be there for a few days....if they keep taking it out and putting it in daily MJ ran the risk of getting a bladder infection....maybe in this situation a condom catheter was the less invasive..of the two it can be put on and taken off.
 
when you go to a doctor in US they always tell you to bring your medications or a list of it.I think it's probable that Alvarez might have thought they'll go the hospital and show the doctors the medicines so that they can do the proper treatment.

Oh ok, since we have 'socialised health care' in Barbados, we would not have to.
 
Cause, you know, the hospital would not have the drugs necessary! It's like packing to go to the beach and taking your own sand!

no thats not true the hospital need to see the meds and want you to take them with you.. not to use but to see them people can mixupe names and mgs so..
 
While I read this...I see it in my head. :( :( :(
Will I ever be able to erase these images ?!
It"s like we are all reliving it.
Poor , dear Michael....and his sweet kids.
 
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