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Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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PCR said:
I know about his interview and I know he said he felt bad after taking the pic, but then he was also happy that it was him the one who took it.
Great guy! You will not expect that sweet guy to confirm the picture was not real after all the money he received and the media would not want to admit they pay for a fake photo. But as you wish.

This is off topic, so we better finish it here :flowers:
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If it was fake, why didn't the family sue or all claim the picture was fake?
 
If he was a drug addict you should know the most addictive drugs in that room came from your client. Nice try to not deal with facts. If they want to go down that road let them. Addiction is not what killed Michael
 
summer said:
It's more about how "deep" rather than "how long". You can have surgery lasting only 10-15 minutes and you need to get intubated because you are under general anesthesia...completely put under. Or you can get sedated for an hour and not need to be intubated, but only get oxygen with a mask on...because you are just sedated. BUT....even when you just get sedation with Propofol...an intubation gear HAS TO BE near by. That is because you CAN stop breathing. It rarely happens (because the anesthesiologists know what they are doing and know what amounts to give), but it CAN happen. Just like your heart rate can change...you can have an allergic reaction....or your blood pressure can drop. Those are all things you HAVE to be PREPARED for. As a patient, you wouldn't know about all those things because it's not like the anesthesiologist will guide you through his equipment. But it is there, believe me it is, and they will react to changes in your pulse or oxygen levels, etc. That's why they are there, and that's why Propofol IS a pretty safe drug...WHEN USED PROPERLY. Just like in surgery...after you take the tube out...We've had patients who still don't breathe on their own....and you gotta do something about it. But the anesthesiologists stay calm, give drugs, make sure you get oxygen and if all else fails, intubate you again until you're safe and ready to breathe on your own. Point is....that's why you have an ANESTHESIOLOGIST there because he KNOWS what he is doing. He won't let you die from lack of oxygen because he knows how to help you. And that's why you are in the recovery room until you wake up and are monitored carefully too after surgery/sedation....so that you are safe and breathing fine.


Hope that helps. Can hardly think straight myself...so tired. :lol:
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THX so much for this explanasion, thats why they are those doctors who study that and only do that all day... (why would murray who knows that act with fire to even use it) i mean if i were a doctor lets say a gyno. and my friends has cancer im not going to mangel with the chemo
 
bluetopez said:
On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.

That's not true! Erin on utream said that that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the pros was going with that! And the judge cut off off right there! He never answered yes to that question!
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A flat out lie TMZ got caught shame shame shame
 
summer said:
If a 2nd bag (or even just the bottle) was used with a 2nd long tube then it would make sense that they only found Propofol in the short tubing and not in the long one. And that way Alberto's testimony would make sense. That they removed the one containing Propofol but left the saline one hanging.



Actually some anesthesiologists give Propofol mixed with saline water....However, so far I've only seen it mixed like that when given as a bolus. And during surgery lasting for longer periods of time you give Propofol with a pump, even though even then a bolus if still often needed every now and then. So I can only speculate and guess Murray could have either mixed Propofol in a bag with saline water thinking he is giving "just a little" of it....or he gave Propofol as a drip thinking he can maintain the sedation that way, not knowing that you CAN NOT control the dose if you do not use a pump. Which would also explain what happened. If I speculate I could guess that Murray gave MJ a bolus, then hooked him up to a Propofol drip...then left the room...and MJ got way too much Propofol way too fast while Murray was away. But I'm only speculating.




You always give a bolus first, true. But you don't always use a drip. Instead, you just give a new bolus when needed.



It has always bothered me that the 911 person didn't seem bothered that a DOCTOR was giving CPR on a bed...and didn't ask more questions on the phone....



There are no 1000ml Propofol vials excisting anywhere on the planet....



Why would anyone want to charge Alberto? He is not medically trained, there was a DOCTOR there who was obviously approved by MJ to be there, so he'd do what a doctor would tell him to do.



What's even more unbelievable, is that Murray had given MJ Propofol and was doing mouth to mouth instead of having intubation gear at hand and INTUBATING Michael right away!!! That right there shows how reckless he was!



What I don't understand is why the BODYGUARDS would have to ask for a permission to get into the HOUSE...and have to be CALLED to get in the house....when the chef (and who is new too, let me remind you) and the nanny, etc. are allowed inside? :scratch:Makes no sense to me.



Well, that won't help the defence one bit since there are witnesess who can prove that he was not even in the house before Murray came running down the stairs.



Let's not forget the person who posted about the two i.v's said the connection was bad so it may not be accurate. And we know from the coroner's report that it's not.



GOOD POINT! That's my thoughts exactly!! If Murray HIMSELF had nothing to do with what happened, he would not be saying "he had a bad reaction, he had a bad reaction"!!! He would be saying "I don't know what happened, I only left to go to the bathroom and when I came back he wasn't breathing!! I don't know what happened!!". THAT would make sense. Him saying MJ had a "bad reaction" implies he KNEW very well what happened and that he himself had something to do with it!!



Well the coroner's report said there were multiple puncture wounds, which most likely were from the atempts to save MJ at UCLA. And MJ not being responsive...I can only imagine what trying to get an i.v. would be like...Hopeless.



Well I can only speculate, but maybe he most likely was still in shock and trying to process everything that had happened, and maybe he didn't think of collecting the bottls as something that significant at first...or maybe he didn't even REMEMBER that at first. Can happen. And then later when he had time to think he was like "WAIT A MINUTE....now I see WHY Murray asked me to do that!!", so he told about that.



Yes, thanks! Let's not jump into conclusions!




Probably from UCLA when they tried to revive him.



Well when you are in panic mode, you aren't necessarily that "thorough"...



If he was to be sedated for a long time, it would make sense to have him wear one. Just so he won't wet his bed/clothes.



Not always even during surgery. Depending how long it takes. We've had kids and teenagers in the OR for 2-3 hours without a catheter and no one wet themselves. The little ones have a diaper on so there is no need for a catheter with the younger ones either. If it lasts for longer then you get a catheter.



Exactly. :yes:



Good point.



Yeah, where was the ambu bag that was found? Then again, I can remember that next to it was a leaflet with the instructions how to use it....so maybe Murray didn't know how it works and had to try to do mouth to mouth. But again....why he'd do mouth to mouth when he HAD given MJ Propofol is beyond me and absolutely amazing and disgusting!!! When you give someone Propofol...NO MATTER WHAT AMOUNT....the STANDARD OF CARE requires you to have INTUBATION GEAR ready!!! And if you do NOT have that and if you do NOT know how to intubate...you SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ANYONE PROPOFOL!!!!!! So that alone shows that Murray was reckless. If MJ stopped breathing NO MATTER FOR WHAT REASON....Murray should have been able to intubate MJ like he would have never done anything else in his life!!! THAT is what the standard of care REQUIRES when giving someone Propofol...and AGAIN...NO MATTER WHAT AMOUNT. So I'd be really interested in hearing his explanation and his "plan" to rescue MJ in case he stopped breathing (like he DID!!) when he gave MJ Propofol.

*SARCASM ALERT....NOT FROM THE COURTROOM....(but very well COULD be...which is the SAD part!)*

Question: "Dr. Murray...were you aware that Propofol can make a person STOP BREATHING???!!"

Answer: "Yes...."

Q: So what were you planning to do if Mr. Jackson stopped breathing after receiving Propofol?"

A: "Uhm....eeeerr....uuuuuhhhmmmm......give mouth to mouth.....?"

Q: "And what does the standard of care require you to have ready when giving someone Propofol, Dr. Murray?"

A: "Uhm.....eeeeerrr.....eeeerrrr.....uhm......hmmmm....eeeeerrr.....a phone?".

Q: No.:doh: Intubation gear, monitor, certain emergency drugs, clinical-like setting....and ANESTHESIOLOGIST or someone who is equally trained to give Propofol......And did you have any of those....Dr. Murray?

A:................................................No.

Q: "I rest my case, your Honor!" -_-



It's easy for us to say when we weren't in that situation. Let's not forget that.



I'm scared to even imagine....It's just so heartbreaking...all of it. :cry:



Well, the difference here is that there already was a DOCTOR THERE. And one who is a CARDIOLOGIST as well. So in ALL HONESTY.....if any of us were put in the same situation....when you are just THROWN into a situation like that...and you KNOW there is a doctor, who is a HEART SPECIALIST, there....I'd say pretty much all of us would listen to the doctor and think the doctor has it under control or at least know what he's doing. And those who say "no way"....well...easy for us to say when not in that situation. And also...I can say this as a nurse....there are situations at the hospital too in which I'd do things differently....but the doctor has the say, especially if it's one of the head doctors (with the younger ones not so much....if I don't agree, I won't do what they ask me to do until I've checked with the head doctor first)....so what I think is irrelevant. The doctor's in charge and I gotta do what they tell me to do. So who ever blames Alberto....easy for them to say. It's very easy to say what you would have done when you have months to analyze the situation. It's completely different when you are thrown into the situation and have no time to really think but just react according to your instincts (or just do what someone tells you if you're panicking or in shock yourself).



Well, it is helpful to the doctors at the hospital to know what drugs the patient got and how much. Helps them get a picture of what happened, what might be wrong with the patient...and especially if it was an overdose case...it helps them give the patient the right treatment faster than waiting for lab results and trying to GUESS what might be wrong.



Exactly. The doctors need to know what the patient got or what drugs the patient is taking regulary...First, to know what kind of EXCISTING problems they may have and what treatment they are already getting...and also since you shouldn't give certain drugs together and because some drugs can lessen or intensify other drugs.



That's right. A lot of times when we get new patients admitted and we ask the parents what meds the child is taking, if any, they often don't know the name or at least not correctly....or if they do...they often don't know what kind of dosage the child is getting. They go "Oh he takes one pill in the morning and one in the evening". But often don't know how many milligrams one pill has. So we always ask them to bring the meds with them and show us so we know what meds exactly they have been giving and how much.




Exactly. :yes:



Same here. :yes:




They didn't use a regular catheter because it would make NO SENSE to use one. Then again...knowing it's Dr. Murray we are talking about...not much makes sense anyways....



Well that would not really make any sense. But then again...look at my comment above. :lol:



Well, when you get drugs to make you sleep (and we're not talking about regular sleeping pills here), it's not a question of WANTING to pee while sleeping... or not. You don't really have control over it anymore. That's why the condom catheter makes sense.



Makes no sense to me and I've never seen a vial inside a bag for any kinds of reasons.....But hey...stranger things have happened. I've never seen/heard of any doctor giving a patient Propofol in a HOME either.....Never seen anyone give Propofol without monitoring the patient....So....like I said. "Stranger" things have happened.....:mello:



That's what I think too. He probably didn't think it was significant....OR... didn't even think about it at all right after because he was still trying to process ALL of that happened and trying to UNDERSTAND what had just happened.



Easy for us to say. Let's not forget Alberto is not medically trained and there was a DOCTOR there. It is not right to accuse Alberto of not being able to assess in what kind of condition MJ was in. He is not a doctor...besides there was a doctor there...it's the doctor's responsibility to know when to call help...not the bodyguard's.



That's what I love about Ed Chernoff...he is so DUMB!!! :lol: :lol: Talking about shooting in your OWN foot!!!! :doh: :lol: :lol: So what if Alberto said "Yeah...it was pretty dark." Then the prosecution will go "So not only did Murray NOT monitor MJ...did not have the equipment there...not only left MJ alone....but it was dark also, so that would make observing his chest for breathing as well as his skin color and tone for possible cyanosis difficult as well"....*case closed* :doh::doh::doh: :lol: :lol: :lol: Besides, hadn't it been established months ago that MJ liked sleeping with lights on...with cartoons on...and wasn't part of Murray's defence that he didn't leave the room to make calls because MJ liked the "commotion" in the room...as in...lights on...noise...? So now all of the sudden he wanted lights out. But wouldn't that mean then too that Murray would have to go outside to make calls? Why woudl MJ then want lights out to be able to sleep, but would not mind listening to Murray babble to his baby mama, etc. for an hour right next to him while he was TRYING to sleep? DUMBASS!!!:doh:



Yup. Like I've been saying from the beginning....no matter what way you twist it...Murray is always to blame. Say it's dark so Alberto was not able to see? Well...not like THAT would really help Murray....would show he was even MORE reckless since MJ was not monitored. How do you monitor someone with EYES ONLY if it's DARK? :doh::doh::doh: But....let them continue....let Chernoff dig the hole for Murray all on his own. :lol:
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thank u very much , this was very insightful ! RIP MJ
 
Justthefacts said:
If he was a drug addict you should know the most addictive drugs in that room came from your client. Nice try to not deal with facts. If they want to go down that road let them. Addiction is not what killed Michael
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That is almost funny if it wasn't so stupid.

I wonder how Murray is going to explain why he gave his 'drug addictive' patient all that medication while talking on the phone and withholding information about what he gave him? It just happened, really Murray?
 
bouee said:
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray

1/5/2011 10:33 AM PST by TMZ Staff

EMT: Murray Wouldn't Accept That Michael Was Dead

An EMT continued testifying after a recess, stating all of the emergency workers at Michael Jackson's house knew the singer was dead, but Dr. Murray wouldn't "call it.0105_michael_jackson_ambulance_2"

Richard Senneff testified about facts that TMZ has been reporting for more than a year -- that when paramedics arrived at MJ's house, there was no sign of life and no chance of revival. Nevertheless, Senneff testified Dr. Murray claimed to feel a pulse and, as the senior medical person on scene, refused to pronounce MJ dead.

Murray ordered the EMTs to take MJ to the hospital. Senneff said the ride was "unbelievable ... like the Rose Parade. People running down the street, taking pictures, random cars passing the ambulance. It was insane."

Once at UCLA, Senneff said Murray was "spinning ... moving around, nervous, sweating, multitasking."

On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
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What??!! Nobody else said this, the Sky News guy who was there didn't tweet this, only TMZ are saying it.

I thought the blue feet were because he was dead for a while, duh! And he was thin because he was just thin, not a big fan of eating, especially when he gets stressed or engrossed in his creative mindset, that's not new *sigh*

edit:

bluetopez said:
On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the pros was going with that! And the judge cut off off right there! He never answered yes to that question!
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OH thank you so much for this. TMZ what damn liars they are!
 
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On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict
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this is a bunch of BULL SHIT! black and blueish feet is also connected to frostbite.

BTW if hes a drug addict then im the queen of England.
 
If you want anymore proof that Harvey Levin is the Diane Dimond of 2011 you have it right here. I am done with his website and him
 
does anybody can tell me when tomorrow starts? because i have to go to bed 2.12 am here... *late nights these weeks*

and any news on who is going to testify?

PS are the defense also gonna make people testify for murray?
 
StacyJ said:
Exactly.. the autopsy says otherwise and if they're going that route, then Murray should be charged with enabling an addict which is also a crime in CA.
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agree
 
ivy said:
CNN In Session

. . .
On cross, Senneff tells defense attny. Joseph Low that when he entered Jackson's room, he did not see Murray giving MJ CPR.
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How can this be? Did he see anyone giving CPR? Because if Murray truly thought that there was a pulse, then CPR efforts should have been going on right up until the paramedics arrived to take over.

bouee said:
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray

1/5/2011 10:33 AM PST by TMZ Staff

. . .

On cross examination, Ed Chernoff got Senneff to admit ... Jackson's skeletal, frail frame, along with his black/bluish feet, were signs of a drug addict.
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ivy said:
begin rant / I'm officially hating Chernoff / end rant
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If I was anyone, at this point I wouldn't put too much stock in that response because we don't know how the question was phrased and that would make all the diffierence in the world. I think that Chernoff and the defense are going to do their best to make this about Michael; it wouldn't matter about addiction in this case because that is not what the coroner ruled as a factor in his death and that is the only thing this case is about. I guess the defense strategy may be to "dirty up" Michael's name if there isn't anything else. The prosecution needs to see what the defense is going to try to put out there so they can deal with it firmly at trial; they may even address it during the preliminary.

Didn't the EMT say that the "bluish" coloring was from it appearing that Michael had been dead for awhile? No matter what the defense are going to have to deal with the physical evidence.

I do know that it seems based on this question that those who have been guessing certain family may be called as defense witnesses may be right. Can you imagine having that position?
 
classic said:
How can this be? Did he see anyone giving CPR? Because if Murray truly thought that there was a pulse, then CPR efforts should have been going on right up until the paramedics arrived to take over.





If I was anyone, at this point I wouldn't put too much stock in that response because we don't know how the question was phrased and that would make all the diffierence in the world. I think that Chernoff and the defense are going to do their best to make this about Michael; it wouldn't matter about addiction in this case because that is not what the coroner ruled as a factor in his death and that is the only thing this case is about. I guess the defense strategy may be to "dirty up" Michael's name if there isn't anything else. The prosecution needs to see what the defense is going to try to put out there so they can deal with it firmly at trial; they may even address it during the preliminary.

Didn't the EMT say that the "bluish" coloring was from it appearing that Michael had been dead for awhile? No matter what the defense are going to have to deal with the physical evidence.

I do know that it seems based on this question that those who have been guessing certain family may be called as defense witnesses may be right. Can you imagine having that position?
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TMZ lied, the guy never said that.

Even if Michael was, what was Murray doing given him a highly addictive drug like Lopz and 'weaning' off a none addictive drug? Really, the addicted angle make Murray look worst than Michael.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Even if Michael was, what was Murray doing given him a highly addictive drug like Lopz and 'weaning' off a none addictive drug? Really, the addicted angle make Murray look worst than Michael.
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Of course!!!! :no:
 
Ingelief said:
does anybody can tell me when tomorrow starts? because i have to go to bed 2.12 am here... *late nights these weeks*

and any news on who is going to testify?

PS are the defense also gonna make people testify for murray?
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RobertNisbet RobertNisbet @Ivy_MJJC The judge said 0915 PT for the resumption of the hearing. Mr Senneff will continue his testimony
 
TMZ SUCKS..... Harvey is a LIAR....Michael WAS NOT a drug addict...you just want to make headlines....you dont even care of they are lies!!!1
 
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