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Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
  • Start date
Asedora said:
Many tried to convince me on this board that MJ was not undewight and ready to perform because Kenny Ortega and Rendy Philips said so while promoting TII movie. Shame on them.
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I would not be so quick to jump on this description. It is a subjective description/opinion not based on actual weight measurement. If I remember correctly, the coroner deemed his weight within normal limits for a man of his height. Somebody can correct me if this isn't true.

Again, what people now call underweight based on looking at somebody is somewhat due to the fact that a large number of people, at least in the states, are far from normal weight; people's view of normal is usually shaped by what is normally seen.

Also, I can't help but think about that ambulance picture that one of the papparazzi who was there when the ambulance was at the house took. Sorry but you could clearly see that that was Michael, so I can't really wrap my head around the "not able to recognize him" comment.
 
was every other night the scene the same? did anybody witnessed another night with ivs and murray there?
 
I don't understand why so many of us rather disregard facts, in favor of speculation.

And one really has to wonder why the charges haven't been up, the more that comes out, the more it's obvious that this man opted to save his own ass, than to save someone elses life. Had some simple precautions had been taken, Michael would still be here.
 
Asedora said:
In communist counties where I was born we had more freedom of speech than I see here at the moment.
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It's not that you can't say what you want, it's just that it should go into the appropriate thread. I think a lot of people are busy and like to read through these threads to catch up on what's going on, and that's very difficult to do when the threads go off topic. I find this board a very useful source of information and keeping it structured helps greatly in being able to access the information that one is interested in quickly.
 
C'mon guys let's not resort to belittling one another. This is a very emotional thread and it is easy to get worked up.

How about we all be a little more considerate of one another.
 
Autumn II said:
If this isn't "Murder 2," then I really can't imagine what IS?

From FindLaw (site for legal questions)

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Murder: Second degree



​




Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
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I am beginning to wonder with this case so far if the prosecution doesn't want harsher charges but prefer to have the judge back them up that there is enough to go for a tougher charge such as murder 2 after the prelim. The fact that he so blatantly withheld info. from the paramedics and the waiting. No matter how this is worked out with the timeline there will be no justification about waiting to call 911; either he was gone way longer than he claims or he spent a lot more time doing other things before seeking help, in my opinion.

And sorry for my previous post about the weight observation from the paramedic; I hadn't yet read the follow-up comments about posting about this beforehand.
 
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StaceyMJ said:
You have completely misunderstood. There are plenty of threads to discuss Michael's weight and our own perceived opinions of it. THIS thread is for discussing factual elements, and what is going on in the courtroom. Does that makes sense?
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Hmm, OK, I think I did misunderstand than. I figured the "updates only" thread was for the facts from the courtoom, no room for discussion, but this thread was for discussing what was said in the courtroom, like for instance: "Hey, the EMT said Michael looked frail, why do you think he would say that?". "Well, I ave no idea, MJ always looked healthy to me, but I guess it could've been because he had a lower weight, which makes a person look frail". "Ah, good point, I agree"....

And on to the next point mentioned in court :)
 
classic said:
I would not be so quick to jump on this description. It is a subjective description/opinion not based on actual weight measurement. If I remember correctly, the coroner deemed his weight within normal limits for a man of his height. Somebody can correct me if this isn't true.

Again, what people now call underweight based on looking at somebody is somewhat due to the fact that a large number of people, at least in the states, are far from normal weight; people's view of normal is usually shaped by what is normally seen.

Also, I can't help but think about that ambulance picture that one of the papparazzi who was there when the ambulance was at the house took. Sorry but you could clearly see that that was Michael, so I can't really wrap my head around the "not able to recognize him" comment.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was odd. I knew it was Michael the moment I saw that picture. I the angle, the lighting, ect can skew what we see, but I don't think it could be to that extent.

Then again, we could be warp by the fact that we knew it was Michael in that picture and the MTs didn't know who they were going to save.

On a different note, if they thought Michael was dead for that long, why did the people at the hospital work on Michael for over an hour? I know part of it was to wait for his mother, but even that took awhile to happen. Then again, I have heard of people being brought back even after they had been clinically dead for 15 to 20 minutes, even when their bodies weren't kept cold.
 
AnnieRUOkay89 said:
And one really has to wonder why the charges haven't been up, the more that comes out, the more it's obvious that this man opted to save his own ass, than to save someone elses life. Had some simple precautions had been taken, Michael would still be here.
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I think that was the one thing Karen Faye is right about: the prosecution is 'only' looking to bring a case they think they can get a conviction on. Sad enough, they think murder isn't doable.
 
AnnieRUOkay89 said:
And one really has to wonder why the charges haven't been up, the more that comes out, the more it's obvious that this man opted to save his own ass, than to save someone elses life. Had some simple precautions had been taken, Michael would still be here.
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I agree. This is turning out to be worse than I thought. I wonder if they will up the charge? I still don't understand why they can't charge him with Murder 2 and give the jury an option to convict on a lesser manslaughter charge if the reason for the manslaughter charge is that they are concerned about an acquittal or hung jury?
 
I found this answer myself..

After 30 minutes:

  • 9} The hands and feet turn blue

StaceyMJ said:
THIS thread is for discussing factual elements, and what is going on in the courtroom. Does that makes sense?

It is absolutely imperative that this thread does not get derailed.
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Well, this is a discussion thread about what is going on in court today, and those MJJC members were reacting to what the paramedic had just said in court about him thinking MJ was very underweight, frial & like a hospice patient..
 
Well, this is a discussion thread about what is going on in court today, and those MJJC members were reacting to what the paramedic had just said in court about him thinking MJ was very underweight, frial & like a hospice patient..
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the problem is certain posters then run into conspiracy about his weight. which isnt what this thread is about. so ok lets admit mj was under weight. so? makes no difference to the case. all it makes a difference is to the con..theorists and those following the AEG lawsuit.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the problem is certain posters then run into conspiracy about his weight. which isnt what this thread is about. so ok lets admit mj was under weight. so? makes no difference to the case. all it makes a difference is to the con..theorists and those following the AEG lawsuit.
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Thanks elusive, that is what I was trying to say. It can't be put any plainer.
 
I got bit lost in this thread now. Is the hearing over for today? For some time there are no updates only discussion about MJ weight and communist countries.
Todays witness list is also following: Alvarez, Chase and paramedic? Any news who will testify tomorrow?
 
classic said:
I am beginning to wonder with this case so far if the prosecution doesn't want harsher charges but prefer to have the judge back them up that there is enough to go for a tougher charge such as murder 2 after the prelim.

And sorry for my previous post about the weight observation from the paramedic; I hadn't yet read the follow-up comments about posting about this beforehand.
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I gave an explanation before, so let me try again:

It is not murder 2 because of intent and jury pov. As I've stated before, there are some fans, yes they are really fans, who blamed Michael just as much as Murray for what has happened.

From their pov, Michael allowed Murray to pump him full of drugs after he wad fully warned that it could killed him. He took the risks with a clear mind that he could end his own life and leave his children. If he was an addict, you could excuse such behavior by saying he wasn't thinking clearly and the doctor took advantage of him. But, since that is not the cause, Michael did it to himself. So, even if Murray wasn't around he would had just found another desperate doctor and might had ended up dead anyway. Even if the doctor did everything right.

That is how some fans' think. They love Michael and are sadden by his death, but feel he died because he did something stupid. If he would had gotten killed by a drunk driver by no fault of his own, they would feel differently.

Now, you want to asked a jury that is supposed to be neutral to judge the degree of guilt on Murray's guilt. They may all agree Murray is at fault and he should pay, but they may not agree with murder 2 since they may say, "Michael brought this on himself as well". Saying that he paid by dying won't move some people with this mindset.

It is unfair, but that is what the DA had to deal with.
 
X17 has a live stream now as they are expecting Murray and Jackson family leave the courtroom soon.
 
Any news who will testify tomorrow?
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id presume the other medic and maybe drs from the hospital. that seems to be the pattern. going through the stages been no updates and court is due to end around this time so unless another medic has taken the stand for the last 30 mins or so id guess its over


It is not murder 2 because of intent and jury pov.
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u dont need intent for murder 2


Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the problem is certain posters then run into conspiracy about his weight. which isnt what this thread is about. so ok lets admit mj was under weight. so? makes no difference to the case.
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I for one am only here for 'the case'. I don't care about any conspiracy theories, I want toi hear what's being said in the courtroom and respond to some statements made with facts, or sometimes an educated guess.

I think Murray was hugely negligent to (1) give MJ propofol and (2) have no proper monitoring equipment in that room and (3) step out of the room while MJ was under. I believe he freaked out when he found out MJ had died and tried to cover his *ss, which didn't work out the way he planned it, so here we are, at the preliminary hearing.
 
X17 has just showed Katherine & Joe leaving the courthouse.
 
Ramona122003 said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was odd. I knew it was Michael the moment I saw that picture. I the angle, the lighting, ect can skew what we see, but I don't think it could be to that extent.

Then again, we could be warp by the fact that we knew it was Michael in that picture and the MTs didn't know who they were going to save.

On a different note, if they thought Michael was dead for that long, why did the people at the hospital work on Michael for over an hour? I know part of it was to wait for his mother, but even that took awhile to happen. Then again, I have heard of people being brought back even after they had been clinically dead for 15 to 20 minutes, even when their bodies weren't kept cold.
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I am pretty sure that Michael was taken to the hospital that had a reputation for (excuse the term but it was used in an article about the hospital) "bringing people back to life." I think they have had success with people who have been clinically gone for more than mere minutes.

That is why above all the what ifs, I can't stop thinking what if he had been taken to the hospital immediately. When this is taken into consideration and if they can get one of the doctors to state that with Michael getting to them earlier with an honest portrayal of events there was even a slight chance to revive him, then I think that that alone should create either a murder 2 or murder 1 charge. If there was even the slightest chance that Michael could have been saved by that hospital team, then Murray's actions at the point of not getting help immediately would seem very deliberate as well as giving misinformation to the EMT; you are no longer talking about accidental or medical mistake.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the problem is certain posters then run into conspiracy about his weight. which isnt what this thread is about. so ok lets admit mj was under weight. so? makes no difference to the case. all it makes a difference is to the con..theorists and those following the AEG lawsuit.
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Ohhh, ok.
 
no it will last around another 6-7 days or so. its over for today
 
ScrEAm.Jack5on said:
I found this answer myself..

After 30 minutes:

  • 9} The hands and feet turn blue


Well, this is a discussion thread about what is going on in court today, and those MJJC members were reacting to what the paramedic had just said in court about him thinking MJ was very underweight, frial & like a hospice patient..
Click to expand...

That is right. This is what was said in the court room today. It does not belong to a conspirasy section.
 
classic said:
I think that that alone should create either a murder 2 or murder 1 charge.
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The charge would be appropriate, but I agre with Ramona: the jury will be the problem, because there can always be the one juror that will say: "yes, Murray was negligent, and yes, had he called 911 Michael might've been saved, but well, MJ asked for the medicines himself, he wanted to take the risk, this is what he got"...

I'm glad they wo'nt take that chance, cause I'd rather see Murray in prison for 4 years, than acquitted for trying him for murder 2 or 1.
 
mthalen said:
I think that was the one thing Karen Faye is right about: the prosecution is 'only' looking to bring a case they think they can get a conviction on. Sad enough, they think murder isn't doable.
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Hopefully the judge will think so. I can't blame the prosecution to an extent at this point. I think that they very well might be seeing how things hold up with the prelim. hearing and how the defense reacts to certain info.
 
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