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Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

soundmind - you have obviously given this alot of thought and you have some interesting information there that I am not aware of. But you have to be careful not to presume to know people's motivations and thought processes.
 
Soundmind, I like it, it's feasible and collaborates some of my own theory, with the exception of the time of death but thats something none of us could really be sure of.
 
xthunderx2, thank you for you response to larry. I really believe Michael is the victim here. He trusted this man to take care of him.
Look how that trust was repaid... This was not Michaels fault.
I don't understand why you say "grown man with mindset of a child" Michael was a grown man who knew how cruel the world could be and yet he still chose to see the best in all of us. That is one of the things I love most about him.
 
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Soundmind,

I believe you thought this out, but where did you hear these? no offense, just wondering. I think it could be plausible. What is your medical background, if any?

"MJ was asking for TWO doctors not one, and he kept searching for the SECOND one never found him"

"After Lee and Metzger turned the offers down, MJ seriously considered hiring Murray only".
 
twinklEE said:
At times like this the report button comes into handy
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Larry has this pattern, so I am wondering if we should talk to him first to understand where he is coming from. Is he simply doing this deliberately? Is it a language/choice of words issue? Is he uninformed? He cannot say he is not into emotions (paraphrasing) as he wrote above, because he has shown that he feels hurt by comments in other thread. Does he need to exercise empathy? He needs to make his theories in this thread by sticking to the testimony and refraining from making Michael Jackson seem like a child idiot, an addict, and someone who killed himself.
 
My friend asked me why Michael Jackson died, and my response was simple... he was always to good for the mortal world, like Jesus he taught us how to be, and like Jesus he was betrayed by one of his inner circle, and just like Jesus he returned and will remain FOREVER
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we all want to beLIEve that Michael didn't have any problems and that he was a victim, and just a victim. But that is not true, Michael OBVIOUSLY had issues with drugs, taking all those drugs would in effect increase his insomnia and of course build a dependency.

We need to ALL accept that Murray was NOT the only player here, Michael weighs plenty of responsibility himself,
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Make up your mind first and then post
 
Ok obviously i need to clarify, gzz i hate doing this, but anyway

FIRSTLY: And this is THE MOST IMPORTANT, for me feelings don't get in the way of truth, so if i say something that sounds rude or inconsiderate, i don't mean it as an insult, i mean it as an observation.

Secondly: I really only take offense to personal attacks if they were unwarranted or if in my view i didn't understand the outcome entirely, so i apologize about that.

Thirdly: You may see that i like to flip flop between ideas, because as i see it, if new evidence comes to light then you can't simply ignore it because you are sticking with you opinion, which is just that and opinion, so statements that i make at the time are valid only at the time, sort of why i don't like politicians :/

And lastly: Michael IS a victim in a sense that he died too soon, he IS a victim in a sense that the media persecuted him relentlessly, he IS a victim by being dragged through a 2 year trial which hurt him more than any of us could understand, but, Michael is human as he protested quite a lot, he makes mistakes, we've seen it, him spreading the Hybabaric chamber rumor, dangling blanket off a balcony, he is human, and saying that he had no responsibility is ignoring a lot of facts.

PS: I am not aware that 4+ years of Opioid use would damage the internal organs as to show up on an autopsy report, any medical person care to elaborate?
 
larry141094 said:
Ok obviously i need to clarify, gzz i hate doing this, but anyway

FIRSTLY: And this is THE MOST IMPORTANT, for me feelings don't get in the way of truth, so if i say something that sounds rude or inconsiderate, i don't mean it as an insult, i mean it as an observation.

Secondly: I really only take offense to personal attacks if they were unwarranted or if in my view i didn't understand the outcome entirely, so i apologize about that.

Thirdly: You may see that i like to flip flop between ideas, because as i see it, if new evidence comes to light then you can't simply ignore it because you are sticking with you opinion, which is just that and opinion, so statements that i make at the time are valid only at the time, sort of why i don't like politicians :/

And lastly: Michael IS a victim in a sense that he died too soon, he IS a victim in a sense that the media persecuted him relentlessly, he IS a victim by being dragged through a 2 year trial which hurt him more than any of us could understand, but, Michael is human as he protested quite a lot, he makes mistakes, we've seen it, him spreading the Hybabaric chamber rumor, dangling blanket off a balcony, he is human, and saying that he had no responsibility is ignoring a lot of facts.

PS: I am not aware that 4+ years of Opioid use would damage the internal organs as to show up on an autopsy report, any medical person care to elaborate?
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Larry, you are right he is human and has faults like all of us. The issue is not that he had no responsibility. This is not what people are concerned about in your former statements, but rather at your words and incorrect analysis of Michael as an addict and someone who killed himself. Isn't it strange that you list a number of ways in which Michael is a victim but omit that he is a victim because he was killed by another. Your omission of that crucial, piece of information is very telling and sad.
 
Lee was not a witness (made the talk show rounds, briefly.) Adams and Metzger were not witnesses, nor did anyone testify as to their statements. (Many statements were made by many people on media . . . . . too many to mention . . Chopra, Klein, Geller, Rabbi Schmuley, Jermaine, etc, etc. None of these have said anything under oath.)

If Michael expected Murray to give propofol, what was needed was probably not a second doctor, but a nurse, to help monitor? If hours of monitoring were an issue for Murray? As it turns out, Murray was doing things that nurses usually do, i.e. start I.V.s, put lotion on Michael's back, and so on. A nurse would have known how to do CPR, for sure, and use an ambu bag, and surely would have known to call 911 immediately. That Michael wanted TWO doctors doesn't seem very plausible to me, and no one testified to that, anyway.

FYI, here is the witness list.

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#1 Kenneth Ortega (Co-director, Co-creator, THIS IS IT tour)
#2 Michael Amir Williams (Pers. Asst. to MJ)
#3 Faheem Mohamed (Head of security)
#4 Alberto Alvarez (Security)
#5 Kai Chase (Personal Chef)
#6 Richard Senneff (1st Firefighter Paramedic inside MJ bedroom)
#7 Martin Blount (5th Firefighter Paramedic inside MJ bedroom)
#8 Harry Doliwal (ATT Area Retail Sales Manager: Presents phone records)
#9 Jeff Strohm (Sprint Nextel Custodian of Records)
#10 Dr. Richelle Cooper (UCLA Emergency Room Physician)
#11 Dr. Thao Nguyen (UCLA Cardiologist Fellow)
#13 Sade Anding (Former mistress of Dr. Murray)
#14 Bridgette Morgan (Former mistress of Dr. Murray)
#15 Nicole Alvarez (Current mistress of Dr. Murray)
#16 Elissa Fleak (LA Co. Coroner Investigator)
#17 Steven J. Marx (DEA Forensic Computer Specialist; now retired)
#18 Tim Lopez (Pharmacist, owner of Applied Pharmacy Services, Las Vegas)
#19 Jaime Lintemoot (Coroner toxicologist and criminalist)
#20 Orlando Martinez (LAPD Robbery/Homicide Detective)
#21 Dr. Christopher Rogers (LA Co. Deputy Coroner who performed autopsy on Jackson)
#22 Dr. Richard Ruffalo (Dr. Anethesiologist & Pharmacist Expert consult to prosecution)
 
Petrarose said:
Larry, you are right he is human and has faults like all of us. The issue is not that he had no responsibility. This is not what people are concerned about in your former statements, but rather at your words and incorrect analysis of Michael as an addict and someone who killed himself. Isn't it strange that you list a number of ways in which Michael is a victim but omit that he is a victim because he was killed by another. Your omission of that crucial, piece of information is very telling and sad.
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Read it again, the first line, i don't know yet, to be honest, i can't make any firm judgment until all the evidence is brought forward, and until then everything's a possibility, the only point i was trying to make is that Michael had issues with prescription medication, if he did not, i need to see evidence of that, so far there is only evidence to suggest he WAS dependent on it, his family said so, his former doctors said so and even the fact that he used propofol to sleep says so.

^^^ im with you on that one Autumn, things like this always seems so preventable in hignsight, thats why i tend to not look at how it COULD have occurred, i look at what DID occur, by who, and why
 
larry141094 said:
Read it again, the first line, i don't know yet, to be honest, i can't make any firm judgment until all the evidence is brought forward, and until then everything's a possibility, the only point i was trying to make is that Michael had issues with prescription medication, if he did not, i need to see evidence of that, so far there is only evidence to suggest he WAS dependent on it, his family said so, his former doctors said so and even the fact that he used propofol to sleep says so.

^^^ im with you on that one Autumn, things like this always seems so preventable in hignsight, thats why i tend to not look at how it COULD have occurred, i look at what DID occur, by who, and why
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Sure, Larry. VERY preventable!

We know that in 1993, Michael had issues with prescription medication (he said so on tv, and in a taped statement from Mexico City). Just for clarity here, the evidence that he was not addicted to prescription medication is in the autopsy report, that did not find opiates in his system and did not find organ damage consistent with drug abuse. Propofol is not an opiate, and is not physically addictive. The thread is for theories based on court testimony, and no one testified that Michael had a problem with prescription medications. Hope that helps?
 
Autumn II said:
Sure, Larry. VERY preventable!

We know that in 1993, Michael had issues with prescription medication (he said so on tv, and in a taped statement from Mexico City). Just for clarity here, the evidence that he was not addicted to prescription medication is in the autopsy report, that did not find opiates in his system and did not find organ damage consistent with drug abuse. Propofol is not an opiate, and is not physically addictive. The thread is for theories based on court testimony, and no one testified that Michael had a problem with prescription medications. Hope that helps?
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Yeah after you said that the first time i did some research, and it is in fact an Opioid (same if not similar properties) and that the drug may not have addictive properties as you said, but you CAN become addicted if you use it frequently as Michael did (the withdrawal symptoms are usually what does this).
And i don't think that Propofol and other drugs like it damage the organs, but they do damage the legs (Michael's legs are mentioned in the autopsy report to be in bad condition and riddled with holes) i'm only going on what i've read/heard, if theres any more information, please share, i'm a sponge for information :wild:
 
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and let me add a little note

This thread is to discuss our theories, everyone can have different ideas about what happened , and it's fine. again this thread is for discussing - not for agreeing on one theory - so do not act like your theory is the only truthful one and push it to others.

Respect other people's opinions - even though you might agree with it.

and this is a Michael Jackson forum, I don't think that I need to say this but putting the blame on Michael isn't something that will be tolerated by most of the people here and you'll make enemies.
 
For people coming up with theories that include lines such as Michael may have squeezed the IV bag and other things that may help Murray. Has no one considered that it is very likely that Murrays defence could be lurking here and other fan boards aware that we will be discussing the evidence and theories and that they could unwittingly be given ideas to use in formulating a defence plan. Its pretty obvious they hadnt already got a definate one at the prelim.

I dont mean to upset anyone or wind anyone up but I just feel a little more caution should be used.
 
Right...

At the end of the day, this is a Michael Jackson forum. If some actually believe Jackson being capable of the things the defense is accusing him of, they're free to visit other more proper forums for that. They're plenty of people who believe what some here do. This person has been accused of the worst possible things, so why not continue with that now that he's gone>? That's plain madness to actually be coming with theories like that that the defense are gunning and trembling for and blame a dead man who is Not here to be having a word on this whole thing. That's insulting to accuse a person of something that serious, like he was some kind of a nutcase that only cared about himself. Jackson was living for his children, say, nothing else mattered to him in the end, since all were expecting something from him, but his children loved him unconditionally and needed him and they were the very first purpose for which he was forcing himself to wake up to a brutally difficult life he had with all the pressures. He had his luggage packed up for the tour and he was gonna perform for his children first, then wanted to see them grow and continued to be there for them, do movies and all that; he had many plans and many people, including his own Post-its prove that and he fought till the very end.

... Sorry for diverting from the topic, it's just that this had to be said.
 
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mjsdot said:
For people coming up with theories that include lines such as Michael may have squeezed the IV bag and other things that may help Murray. Has no one considered that it is very likely that Murrays defence could be lurking here and other fan boards aware that we will be discussing the evidence and theories and that they could unwittingly be given ideas to use in formulating a defence plan. Its pretty obvious they hadnt already got a definate one at the prelim.

I dont mean to upset anyone or wind anyone up but I just feel a little more caution should be used.
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Agree, absolutely. This board is not as private as it feels. It seems like little private conversations, but really, it's NOT. This is the largest Michael Jackson fan board, with 60,000 members!

If this is anything like Michael's trial, journalists visit here on a regular basis. How would you like to see a tabloid headline that reads, "Fans think that Michael Jackson caused his own death?" And then a link to MJJC!? During the trial, I had no doubt that the prosecution (against Michael) had members on this board! Why wouldn't they? Sneddon even hired a PR firm! (Tellem International). There is no reason why this, now, would be any different. We are all entitled to our opinions, but this IS a Michael Jackson board, after-all, and we should think carefully about that before every post that we make!
 
mjsdot said:
For people coming up with theories that include lines such as Michael may have squeezed the IV bag and other things that may help Murray. Has no one considered that it is very likely that Murrays defence could be lurking here and other fan boards aware that we will be discussing the evidence and theories and that they could unwittingly be given ideas to use in formulating a defence plan. Its pretty obvious they hadnt already got a definate one at the prelim.

I dont mean to upset anyone or wind anyone up but I just feel a little more caution should be used.
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Alma said:
Right...

At the end of the day, this is a Michael Jackson forum. If some actually believe Jackson being capable of the things the defense is accusing him of, they're free to visit other more proper forums for that. They're plenty of people who believe what some here do. This person has been accused of the worst possible things, so why not continue with that now that he's gone>? That's plain madness to actually be coming with theories like that that the defense are gunning and trembling for and blame a dead man who is Not here to be having a word on this whole thing. That's insulting to accuse a person of something that serious, like he was some kind of a nutcase that only cared about himself. Jackson was living for his children, say, nothing else mattered to him in the end, since all were expecting something from him, but his children loved him unconditionally and needed him and they were the very first purpose for which he was forcing himself to wake up to a brutally difficult life he had with all the pressures. He had his luggage packed up for the tour and he was gonna perform for his children first, then wanted to see them grow and continued to be there for them, do movies and all that; he had many plans and many people, including his own Post-its prove that and he fought till the very end.

... Sorry for diverting from the topic, it's just that this had to be said.
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this...


Alma your post is really very moving...thanks
 
Alma said:
Right...

At the end of the day, this is a Michael Jackson forum. If some actually believe Jackson being capable of the things the defense is accusing him of, they're free to visit other more proper forums for that. They're plenty of people who believe what some here do. This person has been accused of the worst possible things, so why not continue with that now that he's gone>? That's plain madness to actually be coming with theories like that that the defense are gunning and trembling for and blame a dead man who is Not here to be having a word on this whole thing. That's insulting to accuse a person of something that serious, like he was some kind of a nutcase that only cared about himself. Jackson was living for his children, say, nothing else mattered to him in the end, since all were expecting something from him, but his children loved him unconditionally and needed him and they were the very first purpose for which he was forcing himself to wake up to a brutally difficult life he had with all the pressures. He had his luggage packed up for the tour and he was gonna perform for his children first, then wanted to see them grow and continued to be there for them, do movies and all that; he had many plans and many people, including his own Post-its prove that and he fought till the very end.

... Sorry for diverting from the topic, it's just that this had to be said.
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Beautiful post, and quite right. At the end of the day, this IS about support for Michael. Given all that you said above (and I agree), I simply cannot imagine Michael as "demanding," and "doctor shopping," and bullying poor, defenseless Conrad Murray (a powerful looking man of six feet five inches tall!) into giving him whatever drugs. . . . That just isn't MICHAEL, or how his personality was. Sure, we are entitled to our opinions, but those who insist Michael was "an addict" when the autopsy report shows no sign of that, are HELPING the defense of Conrad Murray, whether or not they realize that. Free speech, of course, but I do believe people should think carefully of the wider implications before they post.
 
Autumn II said:
Beautiful post, and quite right. At the end of the day, this IS about support for Michael. Given all that you said above (and I agree), I simply cannot imagine Michael as "demanding," and "doctor shopping," and bullying poor, defenseless Conrad Murray (a powerful looking man of six feet five inches tall!) into giving him whatever drugs. . . . That just isn't MICHAEL, or how his personality was. Sure, we are entitled to our opinions, but those who insist Michael was "an addict" when the autopsy report shows no sign of that, are HELPING the defense of Conrad Murray, whether or not they realize that. Free speech, of course, but I do believe people should think carefully of the wider implications before they post.
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yes you are correct the autopsy report refutes ANY claim that ANYONE may have about Michael being a drug addict. Michael is not here any more to fight for his good name...we HIS fans are here on a MJ fan sight to try and pick up where he left off. Mr. Michael Jackson does NOT deserve the LABEL drug addict....how does that help his legacy...how does that help his children's memory of him??..It doesn't. I am sure we are all well aware that the media reads our posts on here and if MJ fans are running around implying he was an addict....and we are suppose to love him....what the heck do we expect when the media puts this stuff in print for the world to see. Its not right and it needs to stop.
 
larry141094 said:
And i don't think that Propofol and other drugs like it damage the organs, but they do damage the legs (Michael's legs are mentioned in the autopsy report to be in bad condition and riddled with holes)
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I don't remember to have read any of that in the autopsy report.
 
INSURER was pushing the insurer to make further assessment on Michael, because the media said he was terminal with health
Murray knew he would not approve for the 50 shows, arthritis and lung Michael
I decided to kill Michael not to lose money
 
:coffee:







ivy said:
Thread cleaned

and let me add a little note

This thread is to discuss our theories, everyone can have different ideas about what happened , and it's fine. again this thread is for discussing - not for agreeing on one theory - so do not act like your theory is the only truthful one and push it to others.

Respect other people's opinions - even though you might agree with it.

and this is a Michael Jackson forum, I don't think that I need to say this but putting the blame on Michael isn't something that will be tolerated by most of the people here and you'll make enemies.
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Thanks for that! ;)
 
larry141094 said:
Yeah after you said that the first time i did some research, and it is in fact an Opioid (same if not similar properties) and that the drug may not have addictive properties as you said, but you CAN become addicted if you use it frequently as Michael did (the withdrawal symptoms are usually what does this).
And i don't think that Propofol and other drugs like it damage the organs, but they do damage the legs (Michael's legs are mentioned in the autopsy report to be in bad condition and riddled with holes) i'm only going on what i've read/heard, if theres any more information, please share, i'm a sponge for information :wild:
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MY goodness!!! I give up. Can someone explain to Larry before this thread is filled further with misinformation. For my own sanity and love of Michael I am making a pledge to not read any more of his statements.
 
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I have a question. I believe that the investigator or someone made reference to how much propofol was found or perhaps how much had been ordered from the pharmacy.
Was there also reference to how much of what was ordered had been used or unaccounted for? This would help perhaps to give an idea of how long Murray had possibly been using the propofol. I wonder if the prosecution is going under the theory that Murray had been administering for weeks or if they think that part is not true.
 
classic said:
I have a question. I believe that the investigator or someone made reference to how much propofol was found or perhaps how much had been ordered from the pharmacy.
Was there also reference to how much of what was ordered had been used or unaccounted for? This would help perhaps to give an idea of how long Murray had possibly been using the propofol. I wonder if the prosecution is going under the theory that Murray had been administering for weeks or if they think that part is not true.
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It was not brought out in testimony how much was found, compared to how much was purchased by Murray. Good question! But we don't know the facts of the answer.
 
Autumn II said:
It was not brought out in testimony how much was found, compared to how much was purchased by Murray. Good question! But we don't know the facts of the answer.
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I'm assuming that will occur during trial..
 
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