Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

[Petrarose]

Autumn, I found this so far. Now let me see if I find the part about Murray arriving first.
Although this is an update about the first day of prelim hearing, I'll post it in the current information and discussion thread so that it won't be overlooked in the no longer active threads.

Trials and Tribulations is following Murray Prelim and they are taking detailed notes. As their notes requires transcribing and typing (which is not an easy task), it consumes some time to post their notes on their website. They do not wish their full notes to be copied and posted so as they post a new entry I'll go through it and post only important additional information and make corrections (if needed) to what we already heard from the press. If you want to read their full posts you can visit Trials and Tribulations website.

Kenny Ortega Testimony

- Kenny says around the time of MJ's death he was attending rehearsals 4 times a week, his schedule was to come late afternoon and he spent 6 hours maximum at rehearsals.

- Kenny says that he met Murray in April or May 09 (soon after Kenny started to work at TII), he was introduced to Murray by Michael at Michael's house.

- In the cross Kenny says he doubts even if TII was bad it would affect his reputation.

- Kenny says he doesn't know who called the June 20 meeting and says heads of AEG wasn't there. (We already know that the people at that meeting were MJ, Murray, Kenny Ortega, Frank Dileo and Randy Phillips)

- Karen Faye : This is the questions that defense asks Kenny : "Do you remember having a conversation with Karen Faye after the meeting? Do you remember telling Karen Faye of reading Michael the riot act? Do you remember telling Karen Faye not to placate Michael? Did you advise Karen Faye in any respect in regard to how to treat Michael after this meeting? Did you discuss with Karen Faye any thing regarding how she should treat Michael?" Kenny responds No or don't remember to this questions.

- Kenny says Michael missed a series of rehearsals (a week) in early June. He says this made him worried because everything needed Micheal's decision and/or approval and without it TII couldn't move forward.

- Kenny says on June 25th Michael was supposed to arrive to rehearsals around 4:00-4:30 PM.

(Kenny also mentions taking TII to international places (India and Japan) and Michael wanting to direct with Kenny after TII)


Michael Amir Williams testimony

- Williams say that at the house there were 2 security 24/7 to open the gate and screen everyone that comes in.

- Williams say that he met Murray in early 2008 in Las Vegas.

- Williams say that it was regular pattern for Murray to be at the house when they came from rehearsals and that he would stay the night.

- Williams say on June 24th Michael went to rehearsal around 6-7 PM , MJ was in great spirits and wanted to be there on time. He says the rehearsal ended past midnight. They drop Michael off as always and Williams went home.

- Williams say he was at his house when Murray called. Faheem had left MJ's house to go to the bank and Alberto Alvarez was at the front door.

- Williams say that no security/no staff was allowed upstairs perhaps with the exception of housekeeping to clean.

- Children's nanny is identified as "Rosalie"

- Williams describes the scene at the hospital : Doctors working on Michael behind a curtain, the kids are waiting in a room. Security and nanny is waiting outside in front of the room. Murray and doctors come out , tell them Michael is dead. Murray, Dileo and Williams walk into the room where the children are. Prince tells them "make sure to tell the doctors daddy's allergic to X, Y". Frank tells them "your daddy had a heart attack and died". Murray says "don't tell them that (heart attack?). We don't know".

- Williams say that he discussed Murray's request to go back to MJ's house with Faheem and decided to say "police have our car keys". He also says he called the security detail at the house and said "don't let anyone in, don't let anyone out".

- In cross examination member's of security's connection to Nation of Islam and "Security Measures" is questioned. He says the housekeepers and 3-4 of the security wasn't related to NOI.
__________________

 

[Autumn II]

Again, if they complained and apparently they raised that issue with MJ, Murray was telling them everything was fine and guess what Murray was not hired by them, Murray recieved a call from MJ's body guard per testimony at the hearing.

Who hired Murray is not certain, and will be a key issue in Katherine's lawsuit, if it ever gets as far as trial. There are the emails between Murray and someone named "Tim" at AEG, requesting something that sounded like a cardiac by-pass machine (which is incredibly bizarre) and medical staffing.

But, it's not AEG that is on trial. So, whatever. . .

If Chernoff is going to try to blame AEG somehow, that is an entirely different matter, but he hasn't said anything about that being a possible defense.

 

[Soundmind]

Williams say on June 24th Michael went to rehearsal around 6-7 PM , MJ was in great spirits and wanted to be there on time. He says the rehearsal ended past midnight. They drop Michael off as always and Williams went home.

One of the paramedics testified Murray told them MJ was dehydrated cus he rehearsed for 17 hours the previous day . I'm still waiting to hear one sentence Murray said without an apparent lie.

Who hired Murray is not certain, and will be a key issue in Katherine's lawsuit

This is a technicality issue, I'm not talking about the contract, this is not a civil case where Katherine can throw unfounded claims for monetary gains. Murray was called early that year by MJ himself, Murray started to buy propofol as early as March , and at that point AEG was not involved in anything related to Murray.

Even in Katherine's lawsuits she deliberately HID that fact and claimed MJ only knew Murray after AEG hired him in May, which was as Ivy pointed out " the weakest point in Katherine's lawsuit"

We are talking about FACTS here and common sense. Murray was MJ's doctor even before he ever signed a contract with AEG, something Katherine completely and deliberately omitted from her lawsuit. And that omission was a clear sign she knew those claims she is listing were baseless and would be refuted if she mentioned that FACT.

 

[Autumn II]

One of the paramedics testified Murray told them MJ was dehydrated cus he rehearsed for 17 hours the previous day . I'm still waiting to hear one sentence Murray said without an apparent lie.

Then we will all have a long wait, indeed. . . .

 

[classic]

Whatever the case, I'm thinking that Murray was in disarray. That "riot-act" meeting could NOT have been good. Not only was Michael on the hot-seat, but also Murray. Kenny testified to several missed rehearsals, not just one.

There is another factor about that night (damn, I hesitate to mention this, but it WAS true). Please, I hope the discussion doesn't veer off, but the Follower Fans delivered a packet of letters to Michael that night. The content (scans) of some of the letters are online. The content was expressing concern for his health/weight, and basically expressing LOVE. And that if he needed to cancel, that would be ok.

Did he read the letters? If so, they must have reassured him that he was loved, by fans? And there was the sentiment that it would be ok if he canceled. Therefore, that is something DIFFERENT that we know of, that happened on that night.

Those letters are not "testimony," and I'll just throw that out there. However, there IS proof of the letters. I've seen them, online.

Nope. Didn't see any testimony about whether Murray was or was not asked to come on June 25.

carry on. . . . .

What's interesting is that based on Ortega's testimony here--not to say there isn't more because we know there is--Ortega was the one in the hot seat. Remember that he said that it became clear that the meeting was about him (Ortega) and Michael's response (based solely on what has been said thus far) was to say a sentiment of "I'm fine and we are going to do this" (not a direct quote). Even if he read the letters, at that point after two solid rehearsals, I would doubt that there would be a different sentiment. Heck, based on the blasting that Ortega states that he got, I guess those fans better be glad that Murray didn't see the letters and give them a scolding since I'm sure he would have not liked that any better than Ortega's supposed interference.

We keep talking about AEG's concern about Michael's missing rehearsals. But, I wonder if that concern really came from Michael's actual absence or more from the rumors swirling around about him. I say this because of the insurance company's email that Murray sent indicating that the company should not worry about rumors (which was another indication that both AEG and Michael were fully intending for these shows to go as planned since insurance coverage for additional shows were still being sought/secured). At some point were the rumors getting to AEG despite what they were actually seeing. Ortega did say that Michael had the final say in everything; so even if it wasn't getting done to others' timetable it was getting done. Until someone credible can say what Michael was doing those times he missed, we really can't say it is tied to his not feeling well, etc. For all we know he was just playing hooky.

My theory about this whole thing probably goes more into conspiracy and it is not about Sony or AEG being the plotters.

In terms of people watching Michael and maybe talking to him about Murray's usefulness, keep in mind that others had recently come on board Michael's team, such as Branca. I wonder if he was aware of Murray or had any contact with him. Is it confirmed that there was no preparation in terms of legal paperwork, packing, etc. for Murray to go or are people just assuming since nothing along those lines had been reported.

Sorry that I'm all over the place with this post but there is just so much going through my mind about all of this.

 

[xthunderx2]

One of the paramedics testified Murray told them MJ was dehydrated cus he rehearsed for 17 hours the previous day . I'm still waiting to hear one sentence Murray said without an apparent lie.



REALLY...he testified that Murray told him that Michael rehearse for 17 hours? I didn't hear 17 hours nor have I seen it in the testimony anywhere. I did read that Murray said that Michael was exhausted because he had been rehearsing alot. Geez 17 hours..THAT is one heck of a stretch of the imagination...on Murray's part.

 

[Soundmind]

In terms of people watching Michael and maybe talking to him about Murray's usefulness, keep in mind that others had recently come on board Michael's team, such as Branca. I wonder if he was aware of Murray or had any contact with him. Is it confirmed that there was no preparation in terms of legal paperwork, packing, etc. for Murray to go or are people just assuming since nothing along those lines had been reported.

interesting indeed, guess what Chernoff tried to question Faheem about 21st of June, the day MJ called Lee, but the prosecution objected.

I have a feeling the defence was not aware what Faheem told the prosecution about that day, they did not bring it at direct and objected claiming "out of scope"
I do believe the prosecution brought Ortega only to stress that point. " you knew what you were doing and you were afraid you will be kicked out soon" .

well, that's my theory but if indeed lorazepam and midazolam were not given between 19th and 25th , and he received the contract draft on 24th, it's could be an indication he finally felt 'safe' enough to give lorazepam again

REALLY...he testified that Murray told him that Michael rehearse for 17 hours? I didn't hear 17 hours nor have I seen it in the testimony anywhere. I did read that Murray said that Michael was exhausted because he had been rehearsing alot. Geez 17 hours..THAT is one heck of a stretch of the imagination...on Murray's part.

yeah, it caught my attention, 17 hours !!!!! They said they kept asking him what did you give him and he was not answering , finally he said liquids for dehydration cus he had rehearsed for 17 HOURS the previous night

 

[CherubimII]

Luke Chapter 12: Verses 2, 3
But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chamber shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

from the Bible.

 

[twinklEE]

got love these newbie "fans" who have joined over the last couple of months. u really need to try harder to stop looking so obvious. do u not realise we have been here b4 in 03-05.we can spot them a mile off .time for some moderation

this issue is indeed annoying

 

[Autumn II]

This is a technicality issue, I'm not talking about the contract, this is not a civil case where Katherine can throw unfounded claims for monetary gains. Murray was called early that year by MJ himself, Murray started to buy propofol as early as March , and at that point AEG was not involved in anything related to Murray.

Not really concerned with Katherine's case, here. The contract is online, though, and is hair-raising, in terms of what Michael would lose if he canceled, for any reason!

Even in Katherine's lawsuits she deliberately HID that fact and claimed MJ only knew Murray after AEG hired him in May, which was as Ivy pointed out " the weakest point in Katherine's lawsuit"

Same comment. Katherine's lawsuit is not a part of the case against Murray.

We are talking about FACTS here and common sense. Murray was MJ's doctor even before he ever signed a contract with AEG, something Katherine completely and deliberately omitted from her lawsuit. And that omission was a clear sign she knew those claims she is listing were baseless and would be refuted if she mentioned that FACT.

Same comment? Michael obviously knew Murray, and AEG found him suitable? It was NOT a case of "Michael hiring him," but AEG agreeing to the hiring?

 

[Soundmind]

The contract is online, though, and is hair-raising, in terms of what Michael would lose if he canceled, for any reason!

and how much was he going to make? that's a question many like to forget. He had a deal with a huge corporation and if he delivered he would have got what he asked for, if he failed, they wanted every penny they paid back. VERY FAIR and happens every day.

Same comment? Michael obviously knew Murray, and AEG found him suitable? It was NOT a case of "Michael hiring him," but AEG agreeing to the hiring?

To be frank, from everything we heard so far, no one found Murray suitable but MJ. Everyone was trying to kick his butt out of the team, but he found a way to stay there. If MJ survived longer I believe Murray' ass would have been fired sooner than later. what a creep.

The prosecution has never ever talked about AEG, or referred to AEG involvement or anything, AEG is not responsible for anything that took place between MJ and Murray , the prosecution has all the info they need by now, not even one hint AEG had anything to do with MJ's death.

Murray's defence was focusing on the Nation of Islam, then AEG and the concerts jumping from 3 to 50, then he drunk propofol , then he died immediately and Murray was on the phone for 40 minutes.

 

[Autumn II]

and how much was he going to make? that's a question many like to forget. He had a deal with a huge corporation and if he delivered he would have got what he asked for, if he failed, they wanted every penny they paid back. VERY FAIR and happens every day.

The contract isn't really part of the case against Murray, but when I read it my understanding was that he'd begin to pull a profit only if he took the show on tour, after London. He was running up quite a tab (inflated rent on his house, enormous show-production, and so on). His assets were attached so if he'd not been able to complete the shows everything was at risk, including his share in Neverland. But, as I said, that's not part of Murray's trial.

To be frank, from everything we heard so far, no one found Murray suitable but MJ. Everyone was trying to kick his butt out of the team, but he found a way to stay there. If MJ survived longer I believe Murray' ass would have been fired sooner than later. what a creep.

Well, we don't really know if Murray was fired on or close to June 25, or what? Or told he wouldn't be going to London? There WAS a contract, and I guess we'll never know why it wasn't signed? Or what AEG's estimation of him was?

The prosecution has never ever talked about AEG, or referred to AEG involvement or anything, AEG is not responsible for anything that took place between MJ and Murray , the prosecution has all the info they need by now, not even one hint AEG had anything to do with MJ's death.

That's correct. The prosecution has not mentioned AEG, and they won't be part of the trial. And at this point, we don't know if Katherine's lawsuit will actually make it to trial or not (probably not?)

Murray's defence was focusing on the Nation of Islam, then AEG and the concerts jumping from 3 to 50, then he drunk propofol , then he died immediately and Murray was on the phone for 40 minutes.

Good Lord! If the Nation of Islam is what they will try to float as a defense, that's not much of a defense at all? Not sure why the increase in concert dates would have anything to do with Murray? Strange. . . . I don't think the forensic evidence will show that Michael DRANK the propofol, so I guess the trial will be pretty brief?

 

[sophie]

from everything we heard so far, no one found Murray suitable but MJ. Everyone was trying to kick his butt out of the team, but he found a way to stay there. If MJ survived longer I believe Murray' ass would have been fired sooner than later

if only mj had gone to the hospital on june 21. they would have guessed mj suffered withdrawal symptoms and run checks, and if they had found any lorazepam murray would have been busted.

to me it's now obvious it was murray who encouraged mj to use propofol. mj probably mentioned propofol to murray in winter 08/09 and murray was telling mj the drug was safe and he was able to administer it. as you have pointed out, the timelines indicate this:
murray had already ordered propofol when mj spoke to nurse lee about propofol; mj only began to talk about this drug and was looking for a doctor who could administer it when murray had already ORDERED it!

interesting that mj at this time (in march, april) still thought he needed someone else beside murray to administer propofol. likely, mj remembered how the drug was given to him earlier and that more than one doctor had been there to monitor him when it was used. - how did murray eventually convince mj he could do it on his own?

the most common sense answer seems that mj knew if anything happened to him murray would be the one to be prosecuted, and mj probably could not imagine a cardiologist with 20y of practice and no record of malpractice would f.ck up in such a huge way and show such a degree of irresponsibility and recklessness:
if this experienced doctor said he could administer this drug, then he obviously must know what he was doing, otherwise he would end up in big trouble. and since propofol builds no dependency, no tolerance and causes no withdrawal symtoms mj was all for it.

but like you say people began to catch up, ortega knew something was wrong, mj began to realize something was wrong, he showed symptoms he had not suffered when propofol was given to him on earlier occasions.

if mj had survived murray's monster therapy of lorazepam + midazolam + diazepam + flumazenil + ephedrine + propofol only a few weeks longer, or even DAYS, murray would have been exposed.

the one thing i don't get how could murray ever have thought to get away with this??

what an unbelievable smartaleck. a soziopath if i ever saw one. unbelievable.

 

[Autumn II]

if only mj had gone to the hospital on june 21. they would have guessed mj suffered withdrawal symptoms and run checks, and if they had found any lorazepam murray would have been busted.

That "he was addicted to benzos" is just a theory, among others, though. The physical symptoms he was experiencing could have had other causes. I'm pretty sure nightly anesthesia is not too good, neurologically? The autopsy report showed no sign of addiction, so that is conjecture, as is the theory that "he took Valium" for his benzo addiction. (We don't know that he HAD a "benzo addiction, and Valium IS a benzo, and is also addictive.)

to me it's now obvious it was murray who encouraged mj to use propofol. mj probably mentioned propofol to murray in winter 08/09 and murray was telling mj the drug was safe and he was able to administer it. as you have pointed out, the timelines indicate this:
murray had already ordered propofol when mj spoke to nurse lee about propofol; mj only began to talk about this drug and was looking for a doctor who could administer it when murray had already ORDERED it!

Good point, and STRANGE Right. He'd already ORDERED IT!

interesting that mj at this time (in march, april) still thought he needed someone else beside murray to administer propofol. likely, mj remembered how the drug was given to him earlier and that more than one doctor had been there to monitor him when it was used. - how did murray eventually convince mj he could do it on his own?

I have NO idea how he convinced him. Also, we don't really know WHAT Neil Ratner was or was not doing to Michael on tour. Ratner was approached by CNN, but said "no comment," and that's all we've heard from him. The reporting on Ratner is all of the "sources tell us" variety, and "sources" have all kinds of reasons to contact media. (All the "news" about Ratner has been of the "Maureen Orth/voodoo type. And we know THAT wasn't true.) So, was Michael REALLY getting propofol on the HIStory tour? Or just I.V.s for rehydration, or what? (Ratner was not called as a witness in the prelim.) Also, a nightly I.V. would have meant a nightly puncture wound and possible bruising (I.V.'s can leave one hell of a bruise). Have we EVER seen marks like that on Michael, on footage from any tour? I.e. on the backs of his hands, or his arms? I haven't. If they were giving the I.V.s in his legs (to avoid detection), that would have been risky, for a dancer? (I.V.s can leave bruising and swelling, and are not too comfortable.) It's possible -- that NEVER happened, and Ratner has not given any statements at all. So, it remains unconfirmed.

the most common sense answer seems that mj knew if anything happened to him murray would be the one to be prosecuted, and mj probably could not imagine a cardiologist with 20y of practice and no record of malpractice would f.ck up in such a huge way and show such a degree of irresponsibility and recklessness:
if this experienced doctor said he could administer this drug, then he obviously must know what he was doing, otherwise he would end up in big trouble. and since propofol builds no dependency, no tolerance and causes no withdrawal symtoms mj was all for it.

That seems to be a plausible explanation.

but like you say people began to catch up, ortega knew something was wrong, mj began to realize something was wrong, he showed symptoms he had not suffered when propofol was given to him on earlier occasions.

We really don't know about "earlier occasions," or what he did or didn't suffer? Do we? Clearly Ortega thought something was wrong, but we'd be only guessing at a "benzo withdrawal." Could have been something entirely different. And yeah, Michael felt something was wrong, and seemed to improve after that. I don't think there have been any studies about long-term propofol-use and possible side-effects, because no one has actually DONE that, have they? I can't imagine that the neurological effects of nightly propofol use wouldn't cause SOME damage? And maybe very similar to what Michael experienced? Ortega was RIGHT to send him home, though.

if mj had survived murray's monster therapy of lorazepam + midazolam + diazepam + flumazenil + ephedrine + propofol only a few weeks longer, or even DAYS, murray would have been exposed.

Clearly it was a situation that was circling the drain, and Murray must have KNOWN that. The ephedrine remains very troubling, because one of the side-effects is INSOMNIA! So, what if Murray was secretly giving Michael the ephedrine (and not the benzos, secretly, as has been conjectured)? That would have made Michael's insomnia much worse, and then Murray would be NEEDED, to knock him out. I actually think that's a pretty likely scenario. What if Murray was absent for a couple of days, and it was the EPHEDRINE that Michael wasn't getting? It would have artificially hyped him up, but insomnia is a very real side-effect of the medication.

the one thing i don't get how could murray ever have thought to get away with this??

what an unbelievable smartaleck. a soziopath if i ever saw one. unbelievable.

I think that in his heart (if he has one), Murray KNEW he wouldn't get away with this. Maybe just wanted to collect a few paychecks before the inevitable happened? As far as him being a sociopath? Agree. He has not shown the slightest speck of remorse, not even to say to the Jackson family, "Sorry for your loss."

 

[StacyJ]

Exactly.. he has shown absolutely no remorse for anything. How was his demeanor in the courtroom? does anyone know how he was acting when the testimony was being given? what was his reaction when the EMTs and the ER doctor spoke about him not revealing everything that he gave to MJ including the propofol?

 

[Autumn II]

Exactly.. he has shown absolutely no remorse for anything. How was his demeanor in the courtroom? does anyone know how he was acting when the testimony was being given? what was his reaction when the EMTs and the ER doctor spoke about him not revealing everything that he gave to MJ including the propofol?

I'd love to hear about that, too, from someone who was THERE! Right. What was his demeanor in the courtroom, as the various testimonies were going on? When the summations were being given? Did he react at all?

We've seen the video he put out, early-on, where all he talked about was HIMSELF, and expressed no remorse about Michael's death. There was no message of condolence to the family. Murray's little speech was all about MURRAY!

I know that I sometimes say in threads, "We just don't KNOW." Just so you'll understand why I do that sometimes? -- it's an effort to sift through the factual and the conjecture. The testimonies are FACTUAL, in that we now know what people said. (We do NOT know if they were all telling the truth, though). And just because something is seen in print or on tv, does NOT make it true!

For example, some are assuming that Neil Ratner gave Michael propofol on the HIStory tour. We do not KNOW that with certainty, and Ratner has not given any public statements at all. So that remains conjecture, and actually could support the defense. I'm not buying it, and if Ratner testifies during the trial, THEN I'll try to analyze his veracity. Given what happened during Michael's trial, we need to remember, media are NOT Michael's friend! An article that says, "sources say," is NOT reliable. (Good journalism reveals sources' NAMES.)

 

[Tipareth]

I have NO idea how he convinced him. Also, we don't really know WHAT Neil Ratner was or was not doing to Michael on tour. Ratner was approached by CNN, but said "no comment," and that's all we've heard from him. The reporting on Ratner is all of the "sources tell us" variety, and "sources" have all kinds of reasons to contact media. (All the "news" about Ratner has been of the "Maureen Orth/voodoo type. And we know THAT wasn't true.) So, was Michael REALLY getting propofol on the HIStory tour? Or just I.V.s for rehydration, or what? (Ratner was not called as a witness in the prelim.) Also, a nightly I.V. would have meant a nightly puncture wound and possible bruising (I.V.'s can leave one hell of a bruise). Have we EVER seen marks like that on Michael, on footage from any tour? I.e. on the backs of his hands, or his arms? I haven't. If they were giving the I.V.s in his legs (to avoid detection), that would have been risky, for a dancer? (I.V.s can leave bruising and swelling, and are not too comfortable.) It's possible -- that NEVER happened, and Ratner has not given any statements at all. So, it remains unconfirmed.

Excellent point!! :agree:
I've been wondering this too, for months and months...

But if Mike didn't receive Propofol during History era, the same he didn't received during trial, then we can assume that Murray was the first...? Or at least be almost sure Murray was the first one that introduced Mike to Propofol in other settings that hospital and other purposes than anesthesia for surgery. :doh:

 

[Tipareth]

Clearly it was a situation that was circling the drain, and Murray must have KNOWN that. The ephedrine remains very troubling, because one of the side-effects is INSOMNIA! So, what if Murray was secretly giving Michael the ephedrine (and not the benzos, secretly, as has been conjectured)? That would have made Michael's insomnia much worse, and then Murray would be NEEDED, to knock him out. I actually think that's a pretty likely scenario. What if Murray was absent for a couple of days, and it was the EPHEDRINE that Michael wasn't getting? It would have artificially hyped him up, but insomnia is a very real side-effect of the medication.

I remember though doctors prescribing me ephedrine in combination with benzos. This is for blood pressure to not get too low. And yeah it can give insomnia.... And I was getting sedatives and lil pill of ephedrine in combination.

Your theory is interesting though... Murray could done that in order to ensure his departure at London. To make Michael beyond desperate... making his insomnia worse and worse...
Also in those morning cocktails - a lot of substances that can induce brain hyper excitability substances can be mix including caffeine... sorta like Red Bull... If one got insomnia and drink those even early, the insomnia can get worse.

 

[Autumn II]

Excellent point!! :agree:
I've been wondering this too, for months and months...

But if Mike didn't receive Propofol during History era, the same he didn't received during trial, then we can assume that Murray was the first...? Or at least be almost sure Murray was the first one that introduced Mike to Propofol in other settings that hospital and other purposes than anesthesia for surgery. :doh:

Exactly. The defense will be pushing hard for the idea that Michael was already well-versed in using propofol. Not buying it, unless there's PROOF that Michael used it before (except for surgery/dental procedures, with normal usage).

I saw that brief clip of Ratner on CNN. He said absolutely NOTHING.

I guess my central point here is, that IF Michael was using propofol for sleep on tours, why did we NEVER see any marks? An I.V. leaves a puncture wound, and also can cause significant bruising. I think the most common placement for an I.V. is the back-of-the hand? I've had several I.V.s, and that's always been where they were. (The bruises were TERRIBLE, after.) I've seen a lot of footage from the Bad tour, the Dangerous tour, and the HIStory tour, and have never seen those sorts of marks. Not once. Michael did mention getting I.V.s sometimes when on tour, but I've always assumed those were not nightly, and were for dehydration after a concert. No mention of propofol, though.

PR is now an important part of the defense of a high-profile case (or the prosecution, depending? Such as during Michael's trial? Sneddon hired a PR firm.) A "source" can "leak" information to media that may not be accurate. So, I'd just say be careful in reading or hearing any reports that do not name the source?

 

[StacyJ]

I seriously doubt Murray's team will get any of MJ's other doctors on the stand who will admit to giving MJ propofol as a nightly sleep aid. We all know Adams was an anesthesiologist who administered it for a dental procedure , anyone else I doubt they will say a word. Every doctor is alarmed at what Murray did and how he wasn't monitoring his patient so I don't think they would defend his actions at all

 

[Tipareth]

Exactly. The defense will be pushing hard for the idea that Michael was already well-versed in using propofol. Not buying it, unless there's PROOF that Michael used it before (except for surgery/dental procedures, with normal usage).

I saw that brief clip of Ratner on CNN. He said absolutely NOTHING.

I guess my central point here is, that IF Michael was using propofol for sleep on tours, why did we NEVER see any marks? An I.V. leaves a puncture wound, and also can cause significant bruising. I think the most common placement for an I.V. is the back-of-the hand? I've had several I.V.s, and that's always been where they were. (The bruises were TERRIBLE, after.) I've seen a lot of footage from the Bad tour, the Dangerous tour, and the HIStory tour, and have never seen those sorts of marks. Not once. Michael did mention getting I.V.s sometimes when on tour, but I've always assumed those were not nightly, and were for dehydration after a concert. No mention of propofol, though.

PR is now an important part of the defense of a high-profile case (or the prosecution, depending? Such as during Michael's trial? Sneddon hired a PR firm.) A "source" can "leak" information to media that may not be accurate. So, I'd just say be careful in reading or hearing any reports that do not name the source?

THANK you for the info about Ratner. Do you have an youtube link?

I might add - why nobody ever guess it? Lisa for example, stayed in Mike suite/room times during History... Debbie too

And - got figure lots of young friends... were are they? Media seem to forget the image they've portrait us? Mike spending time with children in his suite, having sleeping overs etc... How is possible when a doc is there to inject you with Propofol??

Also there folks that say that Mike rung them in the middle of the night.
Including ORTEGA. He told somewhere in an article that Mike phone him a week or so before dying, at 2-3 am!! ( I how I remember well because I am not good with the dates ) Telling Ortega that he wants the Victoria waterfall on the scene... Do you remember about this, guys??

So let me tell you this 'Mike wanted so badly propofol, he asked for it, begged for it' kinda stinks.... Or at least for me, is not sitting quite right....

 

[Soundmind]

For example, some are assuming that Neil Ratner gave Michael propofol on the HIStory tour. We do not KNOW that with certainty, and Ratner has not given any public statements at all. So that remains conjecture, and actually could support the defense. I'm not buying it, and if Ratner testifies during the trial, THEN I'll try to analyze his veracity. Given what happened during Michael's trial, we need to remember, media are NOT Michael's friend! An article that says, "sources say," is NOT reliable. (Good journalism reveals sources' NAMES

.)

Propofol was mentioned in 2000 but nobody paid attention to it, Ratner was an anaesthetist who was traveling with MJ, now why would MJ hire him to begin with? But we know with certainty he was giving him propofol. I just want to understand one thing , are we now dismissing the fact that MJ knew he was given propofol?

 

[Autumn II]

THANK you for the info about Ratner. Do you have an youtube link?

I might add - why nobody ever guess it? Lisa for example, stayed in Mike suite/room times during History... Debbie too

And - got figure lots of young friends... were are they? Media seem to forget the image they've portrait us? Mike spending time with children in his suite, having sleeping overs etc... How is possible when a doc is there to inject you with Propofol??

Also there folks that say that Mike rung them in the middle of the night.
Including ORTEGA. He told somewhere in an article that Mike phone him a week or so before dying, at 2-3 am!! ( I how I remember well because I am not good with the dates ) Telling Ortega that he wants the Victoria waterfall on the scene... Do you remember about this, guys??

So let me tell you this 'Mike wanted so badly propofol, he asked for it, begged for it' kinda stinks.... Or at least for me, is not sitting quite right....

EXACTLY! Not sitting right with me, either.

I don't think there 's a Youtube link, because Ratner didn't say anything. CNN reporters caught him outside his house and started to ask questions, but he just said "No comment!" and ran back into his house. So there was nothing really to put on Youtube, other than that?

Yeah, apparently Michael used to call people late at night, and didn't care a bit if he was waking them up! Oops?

Here's the info we actually HAVE. What Ratner actually said to CNN, was just that Michael had a "sleep disorder." And that is ALL he said. But then the first paragraph is just "sources" (and all the rest of the article.) In other words, they don't attribute that statement to anyone specific, and NOT to Ratner. That is typical of tabloid journalism.

Ratner confirmed to CNN that Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder

Michael Jackson traveled with what amounted to a mini-clinic, complete with an IV pole and an anesthesiologist who medicated the insomniac singer, during his HIStory tour in the mid-90s, sources close to Jackson told CNN Thursday.

On Thursday, the California attorney general's office said that it is helping the Los Angeles Police Department in the death investigation.

The anesthesiologist who accompanied Jackson during the 82-date world tour in 1996 and 1997 was Dr. Neil Ratner, the sources said.

They said Ratner would keep medical equipment in his hotel room, which he used to monitor Jackson's vital signs when the singer was asleep or "under," as one source put it.

The doctor apparently said Jackson had trouble sleeping and that Ratner helped "take him down" and "bring him back up," according to the source.

Ratner confirmed to CNN that Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder, but refused to address any of the other allegations.

"It's really something I don't want to talk about right now," he said outside his Woodstock, New York, home Thursday.

Ratner was stripped of his license to practice medicine for three years in 2002 after he was found guilty of insurance fraud.
Sources: http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html

 

[Soundmind]

if only mj had gone to the hospital on june 21. they would have guessed mj suffered withdrawal symptoms and run checks, and if they had found any lorazepam murray would have been busted.

to me it's now obvious it was murray who encouraged mj to use propofol. mj probably mentioned propofol to murray in winter 08/09 and murray was telling mj the drug was safe and he was able to administer it. as you have pointed out, the timelines indicate this:
murray had already ordered propofol when mj spoke to nurse lee about propofol; mj only began to talk about this drug and was looking for a doctor who could administer it when murray had already ORDERED it!

interesting that mj at this time (in march, april) still thought he needed someone else beside murray to administer propofol. likely, mj remembered how the drug was given to him earlier and that more than one doctor had been there to monitor him when it was used. - how did murray eventually convince mj he could do it on his own?

the most common sense answer seems that mj knew if anything happened to him murray would be the one to be prosecuted, and mj probably could not imagine a cardiologist with 20y of practice and no record of malpractice would f.ck up in such a huge way and show such a degree of irresponsibility and recklessness:
if this experienced doctor said he could administer this drug, then he obviously must know what he was doing, otherwise he would end up in big trouble. and since propofol builds no dependency, no tolerance and causes no withdrawal symtoms mj was all for it.

but like you say people began to catch up, ortega knew something was wrong, mj began to realize something was wrong, he showed symptoms he had not suffered when propofol was given to him on earlier occasions.

if mj had survived murray's monster therapy of lorazepam + midazolam + diazepam + flumazenil + ephedrine + propofol only a few weeks longer, or even DAYS, murray would have been exposed.

the one thing i don't get how could murray ever have thought to get away with this??

what an unbelievable smartaleck. a soziopath if i ever saw one. unbelievable.

Exactly sophie,
as for how could murray even have thought he would get away with that? I believe he figured out the worst scenario would be MJ figuring out what happened but it would have been too late , mj would have been already addicted to the drugs and he would have asked Murray to stay to give him more.
And you made perfect sense with that explanation about the 21st of june. At hospital they would have discovered lorazepam. No wonder the defence tried to question Faheem about that particular day but the prosecution did not allow them

 

[Autumn II]

Or, my theory is that Murray was giving him the ephedrine, which is known to cause insomnia, and then hoped he would be kept on to treat the insomnia.

 

[xthunderx2]

I love the way the media always put.."a source said"...:lmao:....obviously it is made up,,otherwise they would of used actual names. They always do that....they make stuff up...for example ..(not to derail the the thread)...last night about the Jason guy and the album...TMZ ran with that....in the end....It was proven false. All I am saying is that "the source is NOT always a reliable piece of information...and we shouldn't always believe what we read. .

 

[rainny]

Ratner on video

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html#cnnSTCVideo



http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2000/02/09/2000-02-09_crocked_doc_won_t_say_if_he_.html

CROCKED DOC WON'T SAY IF HE GAVE DRUGS TO JAX
By GREG B. SMITH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Wednesday, February 9th 2000, 2:12AM

An upper East Side doctor who shot himself up with morphine while treating patients said yesterday that he was pop star Michael Jackson's tour doctor in 1997.

Dr. Neil Ratner, testifying yesterday in the insurance fraud trial of high-profile infertility expert Dr. Niels Lauersen, was evasive when asked if he had administered drugs to the Gloved One.

"Would you give Michael Jackson drugs?" Lauersen's demanded attorney, Theodore Wells.

"I'm not going to discuss a patient's personal medical condition," Ratner replied.

In a telephone interview from Los Angeles, Jackson's attorney, Brian Wolf, said the singer "denies that Dr. Ratner ever prescribed any inappropriate medications or treatments."

Wolf insisted that any medical treatment is confidential and said Ratner was correct not to disclose it.

Ratner, a 49-year-old ex-rock 'n' roll drummer and manager of Peter Frampton and Edgar Winter, has been on the stand for days, admitting he repeatedly took drugs while caring for patients during the 1980s.

In May 1989, he collapsed after shooting himself up with a paralytic agent during cosmetic surgery on the upper East Side.

Ratner, who still practices in Manhattan, pleaded guilty to insurance fraud and is cooperating with Manhattan U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White in the case against Lauersen in hopes of reducing his prison sentence.

Lauersen is accused of lying to insurers to make them pay for $2.2 million in infertility treatments the companies traditionally don't cover. Ratner was Lauersen's chief anesthesiologist for the past decade.

Ratner, who graduated from a medical school in Mexico and cut his ponytail two weeks before trial, said he traveled with Jackson as paid tour doctor during the African leg of the singer's 1997 world tour.

When Wells pressed Ratner about giving drugs to Jackson, prosecutor Christine Chung asked to discuss the matter outside the presence of the jury.

At Manhattan Federal Judge William Pauley's bench, Wells insisted that Ratner had, in fact, given Jackson unnamed drugs.

"I want to explore the implication, and I think what he is doing is illegal," Wells added.

But prosecutor Chung argued that the mention of Jackson was distracting jurors from the case at hand. Pauley warned Wells to avoid further references to the Gloved One.

During cross-examination, Ratner then repeatedly dodged Wells' questions about whether he administered drugs to anyone on the tour.

"In the course of performing your job as tour doctor, did you have occasion to administer narcotics to persons on the tour?" Wells asked.

Ratner: "No."

Wells: "Drugs?"

Ratner: "What is your definition of drugs?"

Wells fired back, "You're the anesthesiologist, you define it."

Pauley instructed the jury to ignore Wells' comment.

 

[xthunderx2]

Ratner on video

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

thanks again for the link....however they used the words " Sources say". People aume these sources are legit....usually they are just trying to drag Michael thru the mud. We all remember the big headlines from way back when...."Michael Jackson sleep in Oxygen chamber"...again they were full of ish....This Dr, Ratner never said he gave Michael propofol at anytime.....and if it could be proven that he did..you better believe that the defene would of had him on that stand. No doubt in my mind at all.

 

[Soundmind]

Thank you rainny, still there is another article from 2000 that mentions sources saying MJ was using propofol , the article from 2000. we are no longer discussing testimonies. we are spending much of our time trying to refute hidden conspiracy theories.

 

[StacyJ]

thanks again for the link....however they used the words " Sources say". People aume these sources are legit....usually they are just trying to drag Michael thru the mud. We all remember the big headlines from way back when...."Michael Jackson sleep in Oxygen chamber"...again they were full of ish....This Dr, Ratner never said he gave Michael propofol at anytime.....and if it could be proven that he did..you better believe that the defene would of had him on that stand. No doubt in my mind at all.

They just might try to get him on the stand. The trial hasn't started yet. I do believe Ratner gave MJ propofol. Michael told Cherilyn Lee he had it on the History Tour, so what other doctor besides Ratner gave it to him? Ratner was an anesthesiologist and it's obvious that he is a quack because he was drugging himself up while treating patients. To what he did he had to be shady just as Murray was. They both took advantage of MJ who was obviously in need of help from a real professional on sleep disorders. They did it for the money and didn't care what they were doing to MJ. They both knew that giving MJ anesthesia was no cure for insomnia. Their goal was to keep him drugged and dependent so that they could continually rob him blind.